On today’s Legally Speaking Podcast, I am delighted to be joined by Laurence Lieberman.

Laurence is a Partner in the London office of Pillsbury, where he specialises in complex, high-value and often cross-border business disputes, resolved through court litigation and international arbitration. He has more than 25 years of experience, with deep expertise across technology, life sciences and financial services, as well as longstanding work connected to India and Israel. Alongside all of that, Laurence also has a creative side many in law may not expect. He is a lead vocalist, performs in a band, and DJs under the name DJ Justice.

So today, we are not just talking about disputes, strategy and high-performance legal work. We are also talking about identity, confidence, passion and why keeping hold of your creative side may actually make you a better lawyer.

So why should you be listening in? 

You can hear Rob and Laurence discussing:

– Reading Audience Enhances Professional Presentations

– Lawrence’s Expertise in Cross-Border Disputes

– Music Boosts Confidence and Authenticity

– Legal Profession Values Authenticity and Balance

– Human Connection Vital in Law’s Future.

Connect with Laurence M. Lieberman here – https://uk.linkedin.com/in/laurence-lieberman

Transcript

Take the crowd on a journey. 

The big part of success in DJing or being in the band is reading your audience. You know, the signals, some of which are actually unspoken. Now I think it’s useful and it’s a similar sort of skill set to when you’re working the room at a conference or you’re in a pitch meeting or even presenting to a board on litigation strategy. Start the way you need to go on. 

Don’t be embarrassed, don’t be shy about little hobbies or passions or quirks. They are a part of what makes you interesting to work with. They’re always gonna be of value in the workplace, even if you’re not sure yet how that’s gonna play out. 

On today’s Legally Speaking podcast, I’m delighted to be joined by Laurence Lieberman. Laurence is a partner in the London office of Pillsbury, where he specializes in complex, high value and often cross border business disputes resolved through court litigation and international arbitration. He has more than twenty five years of experience with deep expertise across technology, life sciences, and financial services, as well as a longstanding work connected to India and Israel. Alongside all of that, Laurence also has a creative side, many in law may not expect.

He is a lead vocalist, performs in a band, and DJs under the name DJ Justice. So today we’re not just talking about dispute, strategy, and high level performance legal work. We’re also talking about identity, confidence, passion, and why keeping a hold of your creative side may actually make you a better lawyer. With that, a very big warm welcome to the show, Laurence. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.

it’s absolutely a pleasure to have you on the Legally Speaking Podcast. Really looking forward to today’s discussion. And before we get into that, we have a couple of serious icebreaker questions here on the Legally Speaking Podcast, which are what is your favorite beverage and what is your preferred choice of footwear on a typical work day? okay. ⁓ so favorite beverage, I’ve got a bit of a soft spot for passion fruit martinis. Nice. ⁓ for footwear on a work day. I mean, I tend to wear

Bros or something smart like that. I had also do have a bit of an obsession with sneakers. So when I’m not at work, ⁓ I have got quite a big collection of sneakers, particularly the brand Y three. that’s that’s my thing outside of the office.

Like it. Well, thank you for for sharing both of those with us. And before we get too into ⁓ that discussion, we must talk about you, of course, and your career. So to begin with, would you mind telling our listeners a bit about your background and career journey and also what drew you towards a career in law and very complex disputes? Yeah, of course. So so I studied law at university. ⁓ I I didn’t actually find it particularly stimulating, if I’m honest. And I wasn’t really sure it was it was the career for me, but then actually

you know, getting a job and working as a lawyer was just completely different. And it, you know, it all brought it to life. So I trained at Simmons and Simmons. I joined DLA Piper on qualification. I moved to Taylor Wessing in two thousand and eight as a partner. And then I’ve been at Pillsbury for about eighteen months. And then as for my chosen area of practice, I mean I just ⁓ right from a trainee, I just always loved disputes. I love

the drama of it. I love trying to persuade my opponents to my point of view. ⁓ I love the process. I like going to court. ⁓ and you know, with no offense to my transactional colleagues, it it feels like real law, it’s breach of contract and it’s it’s tort, injunctions, citing case law and so on. So ⁓ that’s my path so far.

And what a fabulous path. And I mean, it’s been all positive. ⁓ and I know we’ll come on to some career challenges ⁓ later on, but huge congratulations on what you have achieved thus far because you spent more than twenty-five years handling major business disputes across technology, life sciences, financial services, also with a very strong international dimension across India, Israel, North America. I could go on. So I guess reflecting on that, what has that taught you about judgment, strategy, and resolving high stakes matters across borders?

Yeah, gosh, I can’t believe it’s more than twenty five years. ⁓ I think what I think perspective is really important. ⁓ and as my career’s gone on, I think that’s become yeah, more and more central. So what do I mean by that? Well, ⁓ you know, obviously in this job it’s really important to be obsessed with the detail of the case, right? So in a in a document, every date, every word can change the outcome. But I think you also have to be able to step back.

And stand above it all and work out, you know, what matters and where you need to be in a month or three months or six months. And without that, you can’t really advise the clients properly on what’s important and what’s just noise. ⁓ I think you also need to be open to pivoting when necessary. You need to be resilient, obviously. It’s a job which ⁓ can be a hard slog at times. And you always need to be thinking about what the clients

commercial ⁓ goals are. And then I guess there’s also the cultural piece, particularly in an international disputes practice. So you’re dealing with clients from different parts of the world. So I think, you know, emotional intelligence and adaptability are really important as well. Yeah, no, absolutely. And thanks for giving such a sort of rounded answer when it comes to that. You you joked earlier about the transactional side of ⁓ of law.

For our listeners who may not be as quite as well versed in the world of disputes as as yourself, how would you explain what you actually do day to day as a partner, handling these kinds of complex matters, and perhaps how that changes versus being an associate? I mean, I suppose I mean, taking the the last question first, I essentially run my own business in some ways. ⁓ and so I’m responsible for getting the work ⁓ and managing the work, and ultimately the buck stops with me. So I’m

you know, I’m I’m responsible for the running of the case and the outcome. and so that’s a different dynamic and a and a different pressure to to to ⁓ you know to being an associate and at least when I was an associate. In terms of the sort of the day-to-day job, ⁓ so ⁓ I’ve just you know I’ve got in mind ⁓ an arbitration that I ⁓ ran for most of last year, which was all to do with ⁓ damage to a facility that manufactured high-end optics and and mirrors.

And so in a you big technical complex case like that, there’s obviously lots of competing deadlines. So let’s say you’ve got to be filing a witness statement or an expert report or a written submission. So I’ll meet with my team, ⁓ usually at the start of the week, and we plan what’s going to happen that week. So who’s going to take responsibility for which work stream, timings to produce internal drafts, getting client comments, and then finessing everything before it goes out the door to

in that case the tribunal and and the opposing lawyers. So that’s the kind of high level claming piece. And then obviously we need to get into the meat of it. So what facts and evidence do we need to prove, for example, a breach of contract. So we interview the clients, interview witnesses, and draw out the story. So we get them to explain the emails they sent or the WhatsApps they received and understand a little bit about the context for that, what they meant, what was their intentions and so on.

Then we need to make sure everything is consistent with the case theory and the pleaded case. There’s a lot of cross referencing and careful cross checking. And all the way through that process, it’s really important that we bring the client along with us. It’s very easy to get the you know, really ⁓ stuck into the detail of it. So we speak to the client regularly, we report to the client on developments in the case, on challenges that arise, on the merits as the merits change.

⁓ on budgets, how you know, how are we doing against our our budgets, the costs that are incurred and all of those sorts of things while the piece of litigation or arbitration unfolds. I love that. And again, thanks for for sharing it. And I think for just from the last couple of responses, I I can see why you’ve been so successful in a sense of you’re exceptionally client centric. You know, you’re always understanding what are their goals, how can you best be of service them, how can you add value to them. And then of course you take accountability as well and have that leadership frontage.

Terms of as you say, you are ultimately running your own business, you’re responsible for the work, you’re responsible for you know ultimately the delivery. And I think those are two key messages for people to get. If you want to be sort of in doing high-stakes law in the city of London or otherwise, you need to have those leadership, you need to be able to take accountability, and you need to understand the commerciality and really what your clients are trying to do and be of service and be of value and build that trust and then ultimately.

You know, you’ll find yourself on a great path that that Laurence finds him. But I do want to change gears just ever so slightly. ⁓ where we don’t normally do this on the show and have hence why I was really keen to have today’s discussion, to the other side of Laurence Lieberman. Because you started DJing at the age of nineteen and you were already on the decks in your first year at Cambridge, running your own club nights and now singing in a band too. So where did this love of music and performance first come from? Yeah. ⁓ no, it’s lovely to be to be talking about that with you.

So I was you know, was thinking a bit about this in advance of the show and it’s quite an interesting look back because ⁓ you know, I was actually really self conscious when I was growing up. ⁓ I was in a few school plays, right? But everybody was in a school play. I didn’t do it because I loved that or I sought the lime lives. Actually, was really nervous ⁓ when it came to live performances. ⁓ I guess I got properly into music in my in my teens and I had quite an eclectic

set of bands and artists that I was into from you know Billy Joel to Iron Maiden. I didn’t sing publicly. I wasn’t in a choir or anything like that. And in fact I, you know, we all sing whatever in in, you know, at home or in the car or whatever. But I never thought I had a particularly good voice. And then for the DJing ⁓ for the DJing side of things, so that came long before ⁓ I started singing in a band. So

I turned eighteen ⁓ in ⁓ nineteen ninety, and that was really ⁓ the time that you know house music and clubbing really took off in the UK. And ⁓ me and close friends just just fell in love with it. ⁓ I started my ⁓ collection then. I spent far too long in record shops in London, I mean and at university in Cambridge, and I ended up spending most of my student loan on vinyl. Yeah, I can imagine.

I bought my decks in my first year at Cambridge. I taught myself how to mix, how to match the beats, how to work out what tracks flowed well into each other. Of course, all this was way before YouTube showing you how to do it. ⁓ and then I DJed at parties at college and I started my own night at university called Fluid. And I played with a guy called Matt Bowles, who’s still a friend, and he’s now a partner at SSQ, the legal recruitment company. And and Fluid was really successful. So it it went from there.

And then in terms of the the band and and joining a band, so that came out ⁓ of a drunken dinner of dads from my son’s ⁓ reception class at junior school. And you know, we someone said, I don’t know, let’s have a look let’s let’s form a band and everybody said, Yeah, that’s a great idea. And I said, I tell you what, I’ll sing. And then we found a bass player and a guitarist and a drummer and I actually thought it was a joke and I thought

You know, one of those great ideas that comes on a on a night out but wouldn’t actually happen. But we we got together a couple of weeks later in someone’s kitchen and we had our first rehearsal. We were pretty rusty, but you know, the basics were there. And then we got a bit more confident, ⁓ and we played ⁓ some events for friends and family and some work events and we’ve done quite a few ⁓ a few charitable events. And yeah, I took to being the lead vocalist pretty quickly and I and I found

a confidence in performing that I didn’t really know that I had. Brilliant. And I love I love it. And I love the sort of rich diversity of of of that and the honesty. It’s funny that you said from a drunken night brings memories of a a friend of mine who had their own bar, which is called the After Nine bar, which meant anything that was discussed after nine PM could never be happened. Cause ordinarily it’s probably BS or someone who’s a little bit had too many, but

That didn’t quite work out for you. It actually the other way. It was probably after nine, and then the ban does happen. So good for you. And I I love the story of your own decks as well. I just have visualizations of when I was saving up, you know, scraps of pennies, coins, what have you, to try and buy my first ever decks, which I think were Newmark T T one hundreds, which I was obsessed with. And I think Roger Sanchez was the first first song I had when I was trying to do it. And yeah, just absolutely loved ⁓ loved it and you know, loved hearing your story. So you’ve mentioned obviously you’ve hosted these nights, you’ve done these parties across London, you’ve

form live, you’ve built up loads of experience behind the decks. I’ve actually seen you live as well at one of your events, which we’ll talk about a little bit later on, which was brilliant. hosted by actually a former alumni guest of the show, Buddy Eastwood, who give a shout out to to Buddy who kindly connected us. Is there one memorable, funny or I guess chaotic story from a gig or a performance that still sticks with you? And if so, why? So I’ve been really fortunate to have had some some pretty memorable experiences given that

you know, I’m in an amateur band that only started in in twenty nineteen and then, you know, COVID we didn’t play for a couple of years. ⁓ but I’ve been I’ve been really lucky in some of the some of the the events that I’ve done. And a a a huge highlight for me was playing the main stage at the Roundhouse at the Taylor Weston Christmas party in twenty twenty three. And Roundhouse is a venue that I’ve always loved and I’ve, you know, been to been to gigs there for for a long time.

And ⁓ we were asked to play. And I mean, just doing the sound check there was overwhelming, you know, looking out from the stage to that empty room. ⁓ and just thinking about all the music legends that had that performed there. And we had a dressing room backstage and so on, and then we ended up playing to an audience of about four hundred people and it was a real like pinch me moment. ⁓ so I think that was you know, that was probably my most memorable music performance.

Wow, I can just imagine the energy you get from that sort of performance as well. And probably the pre nerves and the excitement. And I guess one thing we haven’t talked about, which has sort of escaped us, but I want to come back to, is your DJ name, because I love it. DJ Justice. so where did that name come from? I could hench a guess, but tell our listeners anyway. And does the lawyer in you ever show up in your music persona? I did a law degree. ⁓

So it was it was sort of inevitable that my my DJ name would be would be legally related. ⁓ and so DJ Justice, I’m not sure if I came up with it or mates of mine came up with it, but DJ Justice was the name that that I was given at at at university, and that’s stuck. And last year, ⁓ together with Chloe Gibbs, I started this club night called Dance Floor, where

all the DJs and the guests are from the legal community and we raise money for charity and I play under the name DJ Justice there. ⁓ so I don’t, you know, even use Laurence Lieberman. It’s DJ Justice for that. So I think that’s my DJ name for good now. Yeah, I I love it. We love it. And yeah, I love the events and I would encourage folks to to check out. I know you post and share on LinkedIn when they’re happening. So definitely do follow Laurence. We’ll get his details at the end of the show.

⁓ to hear about those if you’re in the legal community because I think they’re brilliant events you put on and all for a great cause as well. this all sounds fun, but there is a serious point to to this point of discussion as well is around the earlier parts in your legal career where you actually kept DJing relatively quiet because of your concern about how it might be perceived professionally. So what was behind that thinking at the time? Talk us through it. Yeah it’s it’s it’s interesting. So there’s a junior lawyer and a non-partner and

And then even as a junior partner, I I didn’t really talk about it at work. I mean, I I look back and I I guess I was climbing the ladder and trying to cultivate a professional image. And I think I I I thought it just might be perceived as a a bit alternative, a bit underground, or, you know, associated with late nights in smoky rooms and and just not very city. So I just didn’t talk about it very much for a long time.

That’s valid. But there was a turning point where you mentioned ⁓ before we sort of jumped on here today when you were actually at Taylor Wessing because you were the managing partner there asked you to DJ. And what did that moment actually mean to you at that point in time? And how did it then change your confidence in bringing more of yourself into your legal career? It was quite a seminal moment. So this was ⁓ when Shane Gleghorn became the managing partner at Taylor Wessing in twenty eighteen. And ⁓

He wanted to put on a you know inaugural party at the office and he asked me if I DJ. And you know, by that point I’d been a partner for ten years and I felt like I didn’t really have to prove myself anymore. And and I was in my mid forties and I I was just at a time in my life where I wanted to be more authentic in the workplace. And

You know, and all of that also coincided with a time when the profession generally was evolving. So, you know, it was a it was around the time that well being and mental health was being ⁓ spoken about much more. So there was just a lot less stigma around revealing your full self and not feeling judged about it or that it might negatively impact your career. So I agreed to play.

⁓ and it was very amusing because as people sort of walked into the ⁓ the the venue to see me mixing house music on turntables, it there was just lots of double takes in the room when they thought, ⁓ man, that’s that’s that litigation partner on the on the deck they’re watching. ⁓ so it was great. It was great. No, and it and it’s great that it’s happened and it’s great that obviously you’ve carried that forth now and you know, our opening because I want to

Talk about of you know, a bit of an identity crisis potentially within the legal profession. You know, a a lot of what I do day to day is helping people with legal careers, new opportunities, thinking about things from all spectrums, sort of junior to senior. Why do you think so many lawyers still feel pressure to hide parts of themselves that do not necessarily neatly fit the traditional image of a lawyer, whatever you might deem that to be? And do you think the profession underestimates the cost of that? Yeah. ⁓

Well look, I mean I suppose the first thing to say is it’s so much better these days, ⁓ than it than it used to be. But you know, a lot of lawyers, I think particularly in private practice, still worry about bringing their personal life to the office. ⁓ I guess that’s partly because it’s a it’s still a very competitive profession. ⁓ and a lot of I suppose particularly up and coming lawyers don’t want to, you know, risk promotion issues or progress by not

fitting into maybe to management’s perception of the sort of keep your head down, work hard, be conservative legal professional. And I think I think that’s a real shame because it can take its toll. I mean, you know, obviously in this job, ⁓ you have to be technically excellent, you have to build a practice, you have to work along hours when needed. But certainly ⁓ you know, my experience as B that it’s really liberating to to to talk about

you know, your interests without f fear of judgment or repercussions. I al and I also I think it you know it actually makes you a more interesting hire. And that feeling of openness can also remove some of the stress from the job. Today’s legally speaking podcast episode is proudly sponsored by Cleo. If your legal management software feels more frustrating than helpful, you’re not alone. Many solicitors across the UK delay switching because moving client and case data sounds like a headache.

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Visit Clio.com forward slash UK to learn more and discover why so many UK solicitors choose Clio. Now back to the show. You know, ultimately, what is the differentiator between you if you’re a for PQE associate and you’ve been working on litigation arbitration matters? You know, maybe there is this interest or hobby you’ve had that’s maybe given you some extra transferable skill sets or networks or things that might be valuable to that next part of your

career or journey, or indeed the people you may meet through those passions as as as well. And I think you’ll have a more fulfilled career because I think, you know, work and life should go hand in hand. I know we talk a lot about work life balance, but I think if you can just get this sort of, you know, ability to be more authentic and to be yourself, you’ll have far more enriched careers. And I think the key to that is being in environments where it’s accepted, Laurence. Like you said, you know, you would see it as actually, that’s an interesting part of

profile, ⁓ I’d be quite interested to meet that individual. I’m curious to understand why they were interested in DJing. What have they learned from that? What would be valuable skills that potentially could come to the firm or or otherwise? So so thanks for sharing that. One thing you haven’t shied away from, which again I appreciate the the candor is the pressures, you know, and you know performance related to you know big ticket ⁓ legal work because you do work on these very high pressure disputes and you know you also perform live which you’ve touched on. What have music and performance taught you about handling your nerves?

Reading a room, you’ve talked about EQ a little bit, timing and ultimately delivering under that pressure. Yeah. So it’s funny because I ⁓ long time ago now, but when I was applying for all of my training contracts, ⁓ I went for an interview at what was then Mason’s, now Pinsent Mason’s. And ⁓ as part of the process I had to do a short speech on the application of DJing to a career as a lawyer. I do think a the big part of success in DJing or or you know being in the band.

is reading your audience and responding to the the you know the signals ⁓ some of which are actually unspoken ⁓ often and I think it’s you know I think it’s useful and it’s a similar sort of skill set to, I don’t know, when you’re working the room at a conference or you’re in a pitch meeting or, you know, even presenting to a board on litigation strategy, right? So you’ve got to be you’ve got to be confident in your views, but you’ve also got to be willing to

you know to take on board what the room is telling you. And it you know, it’s the best feeling when you come out of a client situation where you feel like you know both you and your audience feel really content with the outcome. So very much like a gig in a pub in Camden, I’d say. Yeah, and I I I love that. And again, thanks for for sharing so so openly. I guess going deeper on that.

then for for folks that might have maybe who are hiding a passion at the moment, maybe are in the legal profession, maybe they are climbing up the career ladder. ⁓ you know, what skills specifically DJing, singing, have have made you a better lawyer? Is it the listening? Is it the storytelling? Is it the presence, adaptability, something else? And, you know, how would you encourage folks that might be a little bit nervous about releasing whatever they might be interested in ⁓ and to showcase that to their current employer or potentially future employer? So this is going to sound a bit cheesy, but you know, my

My best DJ sets are where I take the crowd on a journey and there’s a real connection. And you you know, you can’t manufacture that. You can’t create that artificially. There’s just a natural flow to it and you know when it’s working. And I think that that applies to lots of situations at work. You know, you’ve you know, I can think of of I don’t know, BD meetings where I’m giving my view on I don’t know, a new approach to client development and I thought about it really carefully.

start talking and just gently reel the room in. And everybody sort of becomes invested and you just sense ⁓ that that it’s that it’s all it’s all coming together. and you know obviously s you know self confidence, public speaking, ⁓ and and all of those sorts of things are more natural if you have ⁓ some sort of cre public creative outlet. So I would I’d really encourage ⁓ you know ⁓ lawyers

particularly junior lawyers, to ⁓ not be shy about showcasing some of their some of their external interests. ⁓ because as you were saying before, Rob, ⁓ I think it just makes a more rounded individual and I think it can be really beneficial. Absolutely. And we’re we’re we’re we’re the richer for it today because we get to hear your sort of full circle nature of the

The story for yourself, which will hopefully inspire others and and give people the opportunity to go out there and and maybe pick up a passion or indeed continue it alongside ⁓ their career. So, you know, you’ve had this created side early on, you then parked it, which we talked about, then you came back to music later in your career, more confidence. What has that journey again reflecting back taught you about success, maybe career fulfillment and staying connected to who you really are? Yeah. So

I mean it’s true and it’s it’s such a pleasure to be to be doing this with you and and to be talking about it. You know, it’s just not something that I would have done ten years ago. ⁓ so it’s so it’s great and you know, putting dance floor on and performing in a band at work parties after so long just keeping it in my in my back pocket. And w I think what I’ve what I’ve come to realise is that music is it’s just the greatest icebreaker and it’s also the lowest common denominator.

So you can be a trainee talking to a CEO, and if you get onto the subject of music, it’s amazing how it just breaks down all the barriers. So I think that’s something which I’ve really realized. And it’s memorable. So, you know, I yeah, do a lot of work in India as you as you mentioned. So I I can, you on a I go to India on a business trip. I might not have seen my contact, a contact that I’m meeting for for several years. And the first thing they ask is, have I done any gigs recently?

And it’s yeah, it’s what people remember you by. And then of course, you know, you know, this this is just a side hustle. It’s not the day job. And then you segue into a a work conversation. And I think, you know, we can make money, we can win awards and seek prestige and recognition in the profession. And there’s nothing wrong with that. But I think ultimately and and particularly in an increasingly online world, I think we are all desperately seeking

human connection and you know sharing what we enjoy with others and so I’ve just been really lucky that for me this has come full circle like you say and you know music and and performing is is my medium to do that. It is great that this is is happening and we’re we’re delighted to to have you because you know if nothing changes, nothing changes. You know, I think of my late grandfather’s era, bless him, ran his law firm, established it, you know, did very very well for himself etc etc. But

You know, I think the generations have passed where people probably in those environments were hiding various passions or hobbies because of, you know, just that was the way it is. And I think it is great that there has been a breakthrough that, you know, we’re no longer and my listeners will be fed up and me staying it in this B2B or B to C world. It’s that H to H, it’s that human to human connection people are craving now more than ever, as you said, because of this online digitally connected world that we’re in. And you’re touching on it there, but I just want to give you a chance to really hammer home the message because you have been, you know, brave enough to go out there

Bring your passions and also talk to us today and we’re super grateful for it because we talk a lot about obviously ambition, you know, resilience, performance, as you’re mentioning there about awards, but not enough about pure joy. You know, so what role has music played in your own satisfaction, balance and long term famili fulfillment, particularly going through a very demanding legal career? We’ve touched on some of these themes, but I think you know, it it’s all it’s all about balance. I mean, yeah, we we work really hard, we really care about what we do, and you know, I have to make

a huge amount of difficult decisions and judgment calls all the time. And, you know, the legal profession is quite formal most of the time. So I think it’s just essential to have those passions outside of work and and ways to express yourself and, you know, which bring out a different a different side to you. I think that’s just really healthy.

So, you know, for me to to DJ or to sing in my band or even to go and see a favourite DJ or go and see a band is just a great release valve. We definitely need them. ⁓ you know, they’re they’re really important. And ⁓ I you know, I just frankly, I couldn’t really exist without the role of of music in, you know, in my life. It’s ⁓ you know, I listen to music on the way into work, I listen on the way home, I get lucky enough to perform. ⁓ for me, that is my sanctuary.

you know, I agree. And I remember someone said to me at a at a conference and event they went to, is like, you’ll never regret going for a walk and you’ll never regret listening to some of your favourite music. Right. You you’ll never feel like that’s time wasted. You know, you have an enrichment after both of those two activities if you’re fortunate enough to be able to do both of those. ⁓ looking at the future, you know, Laurence, you’re obviously partner, you’re you’re growing teams, you’re building business, you’re doing big ticket work, you know, you’re gonna be looking forwards as well. So looking at that, as you’re at the sharp end of you know fintech.

crypto, AI, all these interesting tech and various other sectors. Do you think the best lawyers of the future will need more than technical excellence? I.e. perhaps broader identities, we’ve been touching on, stronger communication skills, more humanity. What do you think? And what are you going to be looking for? Yeah, without a doubt. ⁓ I mean I I’ve always thought that lawyers need to reflect their clients. and clients are just seeking different skills and attributes now. So ⁓ just to you know

take where I am now Pillsbury’s really invested in technology across the business, particularly deployment of AI. And so a native understanding of service delivery through tech is just essential these days. I think also cultural awareness and curiosity is increasingly important ⁓ if you’re advising on cross border disputes or trade or or regulation. And yeah, you know, you used the word humanity. I mean I just think

I just think it’s it’s it’s so essential. I think w lawyers need to be a bit careful about their clients becoming friends because there is it is necessary to have a little bit of personal, professional detachment so that you have objectivity when you’re revising. But absolutely, ⁓ we need to be ⁓ sharing and we need to be open with clients and if that, you know, confident in expecting the same from our clients. Sometimes

you know, you just you gotta make a joke or ask what the last gig they went to was, or share a struggle in order to build ⁓ that relationship. And I just think that’s gonna be more and more important as we go forwards. I I could not agree more, and again, thanks for for sharing your perspective on that. A couple of sort of career advice questions before I let you go, Lauren. Fab fabulous discussion. Firstly, ⁓ you know, you’ve been successful, undoubtedly, huge success.

But I don’t believe you haven’t made a mistake or two along the way as well. So there’ll be other lawyers that will aspiring lawyers and people looking to the same, wow, how could I get to what Laurence has done? You know, he’s partner of this successful firm. Talk us through when you’ve made mistakes, how you’ve been able to learn and bounce back from them. Perhaps you’ve had some pretty tough feedback over the times. Yeah, just talk us through, you know, how you ultimately learn and improve from those mistakes you’ve made. Yeah. ⁓ it’s it’s hard.

⁓ I think I I am and lots of lawyers are perfectionists and we we don’t take criticism well. and ⁓ I think that’s just that’s just you know the nature of the sorts of people who are attracted to to to this job. ⁓ yeah, of course, you know I’ve I’ve I’ve made mistakes, I’ve had to own up to things to to clients, I’ve ⁓ you know, I’ve I’ve I’ve

handled internal matters not as well as I would have wanted to. And ⁓ those do sit with you. You know, those it can be quite ⁓ you know, quite heavy ⁓ processing ⁓ those sorts of things. ⁓ but ultimately I think if you’ve got good people around you, ⁓ particularly non lawyers actually, ⁓ so you know, I’ve always, you know, talked to family or friends who aren’t lawyers just to get that perspective.

⁓ and that’s really helped with moving past ⁓ yeah, an area of an area of improvement. I think that’s a really good piece of advice actually. You know, people that, you know, haven’t got a opinion perhaps because they don’t have that subject matter expertise or knowledge within your wheelhouse of law, but perhaps just have an objective view and so no axe to grind, so to speak, and they can give you that reflection just straight, straight, straight from their thoughts. I think that can really help you shape your own views and thoughts as well. Before I let you go.

What advice would you give to aspiring or indeed senior lawyers who want to build a successful career like yourself, but without losing parts of themselves that make them who they truly are? Yeah. I just think start start the way you mean to go on. Don’t be embarrassed, don’t be shy about your little hobbies or passions or quirks. They are a part of what makes you so interesting to work with.

And you touched on this before, there always gonna be a value in the workplace, even if you’re not sure yet how that’s gonna play out. I love it. And you’re hearing it here first from a from a partner in the city of London that is welcoming that. So if you are sitting on the fence, please do, you know, go out there, express yourself, be yourself and you know, of course, you’ll be technically excellent as well and enjoy your

Legal careers. And hopefully you’ve enjoyed today’s discussion as much as I have, Laurence. It’s been an absolute blast. And if our listeners do want to follow you or learn more about your career, or indeed Pillsbury, where can they go to find out more? Feel free to share any social media handles, LinkedIn profiles. We’ll also include them in this episode for you too. Yeah. So I’m on I’m on LinkedIn personally and obviously, you know, Pillsbury, Pillsbury’s on there. And then ⁓ Dance Floor, my my new ⁓ club night for lawyers. that’s also got a LinkedIn page.

⁓ and ⁓ yeah, feel free to get in touch. There we have it. Just leads me to say thanks so much once again for for joining me today. Laurence, it’s been an absolute pleasure having you on the Legally Speaking Podcast sponsored by Cleo, wishing you lots of continued success with your already hugely successful career. But for now, from all of us, over and out. Thank you for listening to this week’s episode. If you like the content here, why not check out our world leading content and collaboration hub, the Legally Speaking Club, over on Discord.

Go to our website, www.legallyspeakingpodcast.com. There’s a link to join our community there. Ober and out.