Use Your Skills to Make More Money – Matt Margolis – S6E3

00:00 Rob Hanna:

Welcome to the Legally Speaking Podcast. You’re now listening to Season 6 of the show. I’m your host Rob Hanna. This week I’m delighted to be joined by Matt Margolis. Matt is the Head of Community at Lawtrades, a new work model empowering legal professionals to monetise their skills. Before Head of Community, Matt was Director of Legal and Risk Management at Lloyd Jones. Matt was previously an attorney at Shapiro, Blasi, Wasserman and Hermann PA and Lydecker Law. So a very, very warm welcome, Matt.

00:42 Matt Margolis:

I need you like, can I record your voice and have you read off my LinkedIn when people like go to my LinkedIn page? That was spot on.

00:51 Rob Hanna:

Absolutely, absolutely. Welcome to the show. I’ve been dying to get you on. I’m super, super excited to have you. And before we dive into all your amazing achievements, and what you’re getting up to, we do have our customary icebreaker question here on the Legally Speaking Podcast, which is, on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being very real, what would you rate the hit TV series Suits in terms of its reality?

01:16 Matt Margolis:

2 and a half.

01:20 Rob Hanna:

Why does it get the half? Why does it not just get 2?

01:22 Matt Margolis:

I just because I’m a lawyer, it’s half is, like is like saying likely.

01:29 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, I think two and a half and we’ll move swiftly on. So let’s start at the beginning Matt, why don’t you tell our listeners a bit about your legal background and journey?

01:37 Matt Margolis:

It’s, it’s quite a journey. And it’s funny because it’s like, I’m not that old. So for me, it’s like, it’s almost like a lightning speed abridged version of a traditional career. So I went to Florida State University, which if you’re listening, and you’re not from the United States, it is state of Florida. It’s up in the very top of, I guess if you look at Florida, it’s like the really top of it, kind of to the left. And I went there for undergrad, a Master’s degree in Public Policy and then law school. It is the capital of Florida. So that’s where all the government is going on. So I was there. Originally, I wanted to get into politics. And I realised that’s a horrible idea. And I’m like, well, you know, I should just go to law school. That’s a, that’s a better move. Right? So I went to law school. From there, I started in insurance defence, workers compensation, which is glamorous as it sounds. I’m sure my old firm is like listening to this like, Matt, it is pretty glamorous. Like, hold on. Like, wait, yeah, it’s pretty good. So I went there. From there, I left, I went to the government, I worked for an agency where I was doing everything. Right. So think about government work, they’re like, hey, here’s like $30,000 a year. Do everything. Run the state of Florida. So right, it sounds like that’s a fun time. But that was awesome, great experience. Really interesting work. I left because my wife got an awesome job in South Florida. And she’s like, relieving and if you’re listening, I’ve, I’ve kicked my coverage. She’s, she’s a star. So I was like I’m leaving too, yeah wherever you wanna go. So we went down to South Florida. I worked at a firm called Lydecker Diaz or Lydecker Diaz but now its Lydecker Law or Lydecker PA at this point, where I was a construction litigator, commercial litigator, I did some government work, and then I did some other transactional work. I took, I went from there. And then I started posting on LinkedIn and built up a little book of business. And I left that firm, which the firm is great. I used it after. I went to the firm Shapiro Blasi. And while there, I was doing basically the same kind of stuff. And I was recruited to be the Director of Legal Risk Management, which is the, I guess, the General Counsel plus Director of Insurance at a private equity group down in Miami called Lloyd Jones. And oh, man, I was a kid, let’s go. I’m out, bye guys. I’m done. In-house like, it’s like the craziest experience. So I went in-house. And from there, I think I realised, I loved, I liked the law. I definitely liked the law. But I realised that I liked talking to attorneys like you, you know, like, I like talking about law. I like talking about things. I like building community, and I’m like, maybe that’s what I liked about the law. Maybe it wasn’t actually practicing it. So the awesome folks at Lawtrades were like, do you want to come in and I’m gonna say Alex’s name because he’s just gonna love it. Do you want to be Alex Su, and I’m like I want to be Alex Su. And now they were like, do you want to come in and run our community and really help expand it? And I, I was like, absolutely. So that’s currently what I do. I’m the Head of Community at Lawtrades where this whole series of events have led me to posting on social media and, you know, in talking to attorneys all day, it’s awesome.

04:46 Rob Hanna:

Yeah. And you do such a fantastic job of it. And we’re, we’re big fans of Alex Su as well, I think you’ll love what he’s doing. He’s been on the show. And it’s so good to have you who sort of moved into that role with Lawtrades. And I love what you’re getting up to. And thanks for that sort of documented history there. But there’s quite a lot to unpack. And I know there’ll be some lessons in that. So I know you mentioned sort of ingest about, you know, you wanted to go into the political side, and you studied Political Science in Government at Florida State University before going on to study the law. But what was it that really triggered you to make the change to study law?

05:16 Matt Margolis:

It’s actually a good story. So I got into, I always wanted to go into government. There was in, in the United States, there’s a program called Voice State, which is like a mock government kind of thing. So I did that. And I was like oh wow, that sounds awesome. So I went Florida State, I got my undergrad degree, I got my Master’s in Public Policy. And then while getting my Master’s degree, I was working for lobbying firms and political folks, I think I worked for 2, 2 elected officials. And both sides of the spectrum, I’m fairly politically neutral. And I remember watching lobbyists. It’s like a song and dance, right? Like, it’s like this show. So you call, it’s almost like the show, what was it, it was the scientist, it was the scientist, and the magician, is that what they call it? The scientist and the salesman. And it’s, they would be the salesmen, they would sell changes to policy. And there, there may be substance to it. They may know what they’re talking about. But then the lawyers would show up and the lawyer lobbyists would come over and they’d say, I like, I do this for like living, like I, this is, this will affect me, this is why it will affect me. So I watched that. I’m like, I gotta go to law school. This is, there, this is a much better sell than like the song and dance salesman. So that’s actually why I left politics and right when I started law school, it was during that first year, I realised I was like, I don’t want to do, I don’t want to be in politics. I don’t want to get into the political scheme of things. Law sounds like a better move.

06:44 Rob Hanna:

Yeah. And that’s, that’s so interesting, because you know, you have done a lot within the law within a short space of time, as you mentioned. So you then went on to get the Florida Bar and became an associate attorney for a firm that I’m gonna try and pronounce correctly, but you’re gonna re-correct me is it, Eraclides, Gelman, Hall, Indek, Goodman, Waters and Traverso?

07:03 Matt Margolis:

That was really good.

07:04 Rob Hanna:

That’s not bad.

07:06 Matt Margolis:

I’m not correct. Spot on.

07:07 Rob Hanna:

Okay great. So what were, what were your experiences at that firm? And did you specialise in an area there?

07:11 Matt Margolis:

Yes, so that 1, and it’s a really cool shop, they are in, gosh, they’re in a number of states. I think they’re more southern, but they’re regional firms. So they’re not just in Florida. Yeah. I was doing, it’s a very niche firm, and they specialise in 1 thing. So it’s work, workers compensation, which is a system where an employee is injured on the job, defects. So they are representing generally speaking, the employer and the insurance company that insures. And that was cool. Most of what I was doing is what you would expect a traditional associate to be doing, which is my favourite thing in the world, is doc review, doc review and doc review. And a lot of that, and I left because it was, they, I think they know it was just a little too niche, right. Like when you’re starting out, you don’t know what you want to do. You want to just, I want to, right like, I want to litigate, or I want to be an M&A. I don’t know. I mean, maybe I want to do everything at once. So I, it was too niche so that’s why I left.

08:08 Rob Hanna:

Yeah. But then you also went on and you spent some time, I believe, with the Florida Department of Economic Opportunity as an Assistant General Counsel, helping the governor and advancing, I think the Florida’s economy. So what skills did you learn whilst at the department? Because that sounds fascinating.

08:23 Matt Margolis:

That was a wild child. That would see that’s where I learned like, everything. In that role, I was, again, I was really a fresh attorney. And it was the opposite. Right. So as opposed to being very niche in the department, they’re like, you’re going to do everything. I was really like a floater, right. I think I did a number of litigated matters. And I was like a brand new attorney. Small claims trials. I did a bunch of trials for low level cases. I did 2. I did administrative for, related litigation, by myself which was for me was surreal. I’m like, I don’t know what I’m doing. I mean, I knew what I was doing. I won but I was like that in democracy terms was like full force, and you’re like, oh my gosh, I did that. I was doing review of substantial contracts, vendor agreements, grant agreements, MSAs, you name it, it was this whole, like a traditional Assistant General Counsel, I would say, like it really as opposed to even though it’s like a government agency, it was like a mini company, if you will.

09:22 Rob Hanna:

Yeah. No, it sounds fascinating. And you say as you describe that in no short blocks of time, you’ve already amassed a very good skill set, you know, before then taking on other roles within the legal community. So I mentioned in my intro as well and you reference, you were then, you went on to be an Attorney for Shapiro Blasi. So you know, tell us a bit about that and also Lydecker Law. What type of work you’re undertaking with those firms and, you know, any memorable cases for you along the way?

09:46 Matt Margolis:

That’s a famous, that’s a, that’s a, those are famous last words. Let me, if I can do, if we’re gonna talk funny stories, let me, let me backtrack just a little bit all right. So when I was at Eraclides, I had done my first deposition. And I’ve told this story on the internet a million times, because for me, it just makes me laugh at this point. We were telling funny stories, I would have brought the punchline to this story. But I digress. So it was my first deposition and I was there with my boss, so it’s like, you know, it’s like an accompany and then you also ask questions. Yeah, it was like, very excited for me. It happened to be on Halloween. So I wore a hot dog costume. To my boss, can I wear this to the deposition? And he’s like, yeah, sure your like, you know, joke. And like, I, stupid, and I can’t pick up on jokes like that. So I said, okay, I’m gonna, I’m gonna wear this, he’s okay with it. So I go to this law firm and this law firm, ummm, if you’re listening, and you’re in the States, it is a law firm that, you know, that is a plaintiff’s law firm that you, you, trust me, you know it. And I remember showing up in the hot dog costume. People were in other costumes, because it’s Halloween. And they look at me kind of funny. And they’re like, can we help you? And so I’m the attorney for this case. And like, people were like, chuckling. I remember like, a paralegal popped out and she’s like, you, you’re funny. And I’m like. So I go into conference room, and I’m there with my, my boss, my boss sees me, he’s like, what ummm, what’s up? And the other attorney is laughing. It’s funny, that this is really funny. And the person that’s getting deposed, which is the claimant, in any other context, the plaintiff goes, what are you wearing? And I’m like, well, it’s a hot dog costume. Like he’s the stupid 1. Yeah, like, what do you not see? So I sit. So I sit down and we start the deposition, and we just go at it. And then finally, I think at 1 point, I have to take it off, because I’m literally, finally the shame and embarrassment finally hit me. Which it’s no longer now. It’s the funniest thing on the planet. So I take it off, we finish the deposition. And as it ends, I put the hot dog costume back on, and everyone’s like, do you want to stay for a cake eating contest, like we’re having cake like, so you know, and I’m like, at this point, guys, I’ve outstayed my welcome. My hot dog costume. And I got in my car and I drove away. So that was my first deposition.

12:22 Rob Hanna:

Well, it’s 1 that I’ve never forget to forget, as well, in terms of someone who’s come onto the show, describing it, it’s going to take something pretty special for someone to use up that, that’s for sure. But thanks for sharing that. And you know, it’s just in your nature and obviously proves why you do such a good job in your, in your current role, which we’re gonna talk about in a moment. But before that, you were also from there you previously were the Director of Legal and Risk Management, as you referenced at Lloyd Jones so, you know, what does your role as a director involve?

12:48 Matt Margolis:

Yeah, so the title Director, I think I was given that because I had, and this was a very, this was a very cool role. So they gave me that title because they encompass 2 sets. I think if you just said General Counsel, Head of Legal it wouldn’t get everything. So I was the Head of Legal let’s just call it that. Then General Counsel, Head of Legal and I also had a non-legal role. And I was the Head of Insurance. Yeah. So I can call the insurance portfolio and that was like, such a fun. For me I’m like an insurance nerd. If you’re listening to this. I don’t know why insurance intrigues me so much. Like when I go, listen, when I come over, across the pond, I’m going to Lloyds, it’s like the first place I’m going.

13:26 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, Lloyds of London. Let’s do it. It’d be fun.

13:28 Matt Margolis:

Let’s do it. I’m excited. Um, so I, I, gosh that role was crazy. So I was effectively the sole legal in the, in that position. So what we were doing in that company is awesome. What they were doing is they were acquiring and managing and also getting rid of multifamily properties, senior living properties, hospitality, like small hotels, and I was trying to gambit, any given day could be an employment related issue, a new deal that we’re working on, healthcare regulatory issues, because of the senior side. You name it, I was doing. And then while that was all going on, I had this like big insurance portfolio. My baby. I’m like, holding. Speaking of baby I know, we both have new kids and it’s like, my other baby was the insurance and I’d like, to do that. So that was, that was a blast, man. That was a lot of fun.

14:16 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, it sounds like you had a lot of fun and it sounds like you bring so much sort of energy into all of your, your roles.

14:23 Rob Hanna:

Time for a quick break from the show. You wouldn’t leave a potential client waiting in your office for 3 days. But what about when it comes to returning potential clients, phone calls, emails, or even web inquiries. If you’re not responding rapidly to those who inquire about your firm’s services, you could be losing money, losing clients and affecting your law firm’s reputation. Thankfully, there’s a resource from our sponsor Clio that can help you, called how to grow your firm with legal client intake. It’s a free guide that will show exactly how and why you should be automating your client intake process. Download your free copy@clio dot com forward slash UK forward slash free intake guide. That’s clear, c l i o dot com forward slash UK forward slash free intake guide. Now back to the show.

15:16 Rob Hanna:

Now you are the Head of Community at Lawtrades. So, you know, tell us a bit more about what that involves. And just tell us more about Lawtrades in general.

15:25 Matt Margolis:

I appreciate it. Yeah. So into your, your point, I, if you’re listening, this is my big advice, energy is so valuable, like, there’s plenty of jobs that I think, I know, I was not the better attorney, I was not the better person. But I did bring a certain kind of energy, I did bring a certain kind of, I will do it, we will figure it out together, and we will get it done. For me, like a collaborative effort plus a I’m gonna, you know, like a, I guess, what’s the best way to put it? You know, I’m, I’m willing to jump in here and just get it done and do it. So if, if you’re interviewing for jobs, I suggest, you know, coming with the same kind of energy. It’ll do wonders for you. Now, for Lawtrades. So Lawtrades is this really cool tech company. What we do is, we are another way, what’s the best way to put it? Legal infrastructure, so General Counsel’s offices, for example, maybe they don’t need somebody for 40 hours a week, right. Yeah, they just need 10, 10 hours a week, for a certain thing, vendor contracts, or maybe some sort of overflow, right. Things that they, they’re overwhelmed, they don’t have the resources to handle and they just also there, there may be so high on the totem pole, they’re like, I really shouldn’t be doing this kind of work. We can get them attorneys, paralegals, legal assistants, we have a network of our own, that we just plug in, and then pull out and then plug in. So it’s a really cool model. It’s a really cool platform that we have. And it’s making a lot of in-house departments very happy.

17:03 Rob Hanna:

And it’s amazing, because I’ve seen the growth of the company, I love what you’re doing. And you know, you’re a huge part of that. So, you know, what does Head of Community actually mean, Matt? And what does a typical day look like for you as a Head of Community?

17:17 Matt Margolis:

Rob, you’re a man after my heart. So what the Head of Community is, is we have a whole community department and what in short, is we service our customers or clients and then everyone adjacent. So, I guess actually let me backtrack, not customers and clients because now I’m talking like an attorney, which is bizarre. Our, our, the folks that, that put on roles, and then they utilise our service and then their awesome talent, I think that’s the best way to put it. So on a day to day basis, I am basically spreading, you know, helping the brand awareness. So social media posting, events, dinners, things of that nature so everyone is aware of what Lawtrades is, who can, you know, that they want to join the community, because they know what the community is. Also I’m you know, I’m assisting with, definitely with sales at some level, though, I’m not really a salesperson, I’m more of a, a more of a post the social media poster, if anything. And then you know, from day to day varies, I, you know, sometimes I’ll be at like tech GC, which is a big event and helping present on issues that I’m accustomed to, because, or issues that I’m familiar with, because I was a solo GC or, gosh, I’m trying to think every day is a little bit different isn’t it. Now I’m thinking about it out loud, I’m like, what is my scope of work? Like, what am I doing? But it’s just every day is different. And as every day, I guess, even though the tasks all change per day, they all come back to the central message of, are we making our community better? Are we helping the members of our community? And are we growing the community?

18:59 Rob Hanna:

Yeah. And it’s so important because I, I stand by communities everything nowadays. And I always say to people, we’re not building a database, we’re building a community. And I think, you know, collaboration over competition and focusing on community, community are the key things. But for you, what’s your definition of community Matt? And what is the significance of community in the legal industry specifically? And do you truly believe it can bring legal professionals together?

19:23 Matt Margolis:

Oh, 100%. My definition of community, I, it’s, it may be long winded because I am still an attorney. But my definition of community is, is a, I guess, it’s like an idea. It’s the fact that everyone can think about this 1 thing. And we’re all in tune to it. We’re all like, alright, we like x, or we, we enjoy y whatever it may be, and we all collaborate. And we all work together for that common idea. And that’s community. So for us, we have this common idea of how do we decentralise the practice of law. How do we, how do we help 1 folks that want to be solo, that want to empower themselves. And on the other side, how do we help busy General Counsel offices and whatever, do more with less. And we have these 2 ideas that really are in sync. And then everyone in the community agrees with those ideas, or at least in principle agrees of those ideas and wants to collaborate to reach the goal that those ideas kind of envision right. So that’s the long-winded answer of what I think of community. Now, as it relates to community for the law, community for law is everything. I think we don’t even realise it right. So, let me just talk back and practice. In private practice, gosh, like I would go to, it’s funny, I would go to like these hearings, right, these like, litigate, you know, for litigation. And we would all have the same attorneys there every single time. And we would all, whether we realise it or not, we were a community of lawyers there, we all knew each other, we all talked, we wanted to help each other in any way, shape, or form. Because at the end of the day, we all had a common goal. And it’s practicing law, practicing law to the best of our abilities to zealously advocate for our clients. So that it’s so valuable, and then taking that that idea and applying it across the board in law. I mean, I’ve already seen it, it pays dividends, it really results in such a win for everyone in the community. And, I some, in some ways, I wish I see more community efforts in law, but we’re getting there. It’s slow, but we’re getting there.

21:32 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, absolutely. We will get there. And I think people like your good self and many others that are part of the legal community. And if you know, you know, we’ll, we’ll definitely keep pushing for change. And you know, I very much welcome at something, 1 of our core values on the show is you know, want to humanise the profession, and we want to bring people with wisdom, but you know, to educate, entertain and inspire but in a, you know, in a fun human manner and you know, talking of, of human and creativity, you know, you’re 1 of the most creative content creators, it has to be said, particularly on Instagram and, and TikTok, so you know, what inspired you to start posting on these these platforms, because some of them are just hilarious.

22:06 Matt Margolis:

I appreciate that. And if anyone’s watching, I definitely don’t control our Twitter page for Lawtrades. Definitely not. Don’t even, look behind the curtain, don’t worry. There’s some subtext there. So how I got started on it, I got started on it, I remember when I got started for this, so I used to post very legal articles, things that like, is a traditional, like what we would traditionally post. We got no traction, we got some traction, but really like, meh, you know, not, not what I would like to see. So obviously, it didn’t really resonate with people, it was boring. You know, it’s just not. And it wasn’t reflective of really me. I mean, I’ve got a pretty like, wild personality is the best way to put it, I guess maybe annoying to some people. But just my personality is definitely not one to generally post legal articles on a day-to-day basis. So the start of covid, and this is probably a story that a lot of folks, have started covid, I think we’re all cooped up at home. And also I’m working at a firm and you know, I wanted to have some sort of client engagement, I wasn’t really getting the client engagement that I wanted. I was like, you know what, I’m just gonna start posting more things, I started posting a little bit more human stuff, and then eventually, I remember having a client that, like would not use contracts, not any like, it killed me. And I’m like, I was so frustrated. And I remember posting a video on LinkedIn of me super frustrated, like all disheveled and I’m like, just please have a contract. And it did well. I was like, oh, all right, well, maybe videos makes sense. And I’d not been on TikTok. I’d seen it, I was 1 of those millennials that are like, I’m not a Gen Z. Which in retrospect, I’m like, oh my gosh, I’m so stupid. But anyways, so I, so I posted another video, another kind of funny video did well, and then I went on TikTok, because I realised TikTok was a good platform, and had good, it gave me the ability to post things with video or with, with audio with, you know, editing, whatever. So I posted another video and it was like my highest performing video and ended up getting like, you know, maybe 900 likes, re-shared at times or something like that. For me that was crazy. And I’m like, well, there’s something to it, you know. And it was just, it was things that resonated with me, I think that video was misspelling the word motion, like catching it after you file it. And people were like, oh my gosh, that happens to me all the time. And I’m like, maybe I should stop posting these legal article or whatever, and start posting things that everyone relates to. And things that I want to talk about because it irked me and we never talked about it. Well, I was an attorney right. Everyone has to be perfect as an attorney. No one makes grammatical mistakes like that, right.

24:49 Rob Hanna:

Yeah. Yeah. It’s so true. It’s so true. And it’s what I always say to people with particularly on LinkedIn, you know, I described the people, say to me, you know, is this platform, what is this and I just said, look, treat it as the pub. You know, the LinkedIn homepage is the pub, right. So if you’re creating the good content, people are going to want to go over to your table and have the conversation with you. And then you position your profile, so then people can buy from you, right. If you create enough excitement, you create enough curiosity, you create enough good quality content be it humour, be it educational, then with your profiles, have the call to actions, and then you can capture those leads and bring them off. And I think you do so, so well at that Matt. Some of the stuff you produce is just excellent. It has to be said, and 1 of your TikToks I think gained over like 15,000 likes, you know, the evolution of emails, I think and where do you, where do you get the ideas for TikToks? And are they, are they all based on real life experiences of working in the law? Or is there a little bit of, a sort of, shall we say, let’s not let the truth get in the way of a good story?

25:50 Matt Margolis:

Like 90%, based on true stories. Yeah, so I try. I try to keep things as real as they possibly can. Granted, there’s sometimes I’m going to exaggerate for the purposes of the video. Maybe I don’t slam my keyboard or throw my keyboard. But there’s some truth to it, right? Like when, I remember like emails, they were so proper, when I first started, like, it was very, like very and then by my third year, I’m like, like, where are documents? And it’s, and it’s just this gradual, formal to informal aspect of the law. I think you get so comfortable on a topic or into a, you know, an industry and you’re like, I know when to be formal. And if it’s with my opposing counsel I’m alright.

26:35 Rob Hanna:

It’s so true. And 1 of my, 1 of my friends who teaches a lot on the world of social media. So I don’t know why we’re still using b to b and b to c because it’s all h to h, human to human. And I think, you know, that’s the way to think about these things, particularly with social media and why you know, roles, like yourself Head of Community and you referenced Alex before do so well, because you’re bringing the human side of the profession, and people can relate to that human side. And it’s just amazing what you’re doing. There’s a real need for this. And I think you’re a super early adopter, in particular, what Lawtrades have done. I think it’s 1 of the most critical hires, and I’m excited to see where it goes. But you’re also I think on most memes on Instagram. So you know, what’s been your favourite?

27:19 Matt Margolis:

Oh, that I’ve made or that I’ve seen?

27:20 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, that you’ve made.

27:22 Matt Margolis:

Oh, gosh, what’s my favourite? This see, now you’re asking me like, what’s my favourite kid? What is my favourite meme? Let me think. Gosh, I think so. I do a lot of like, posting my own tweets. Because I first I, I just, I don’t know that, that’s I do that a lot. But I, actual memes like pictures with the, my favourite. You know what I don’t like favourites. My favourite was, was, it’s like an Oscars meme and it’s like a bunch of these celebrities, like, almost like, they are almost look like zoom boxes, like looking on in horror. And it’s when, it’s affect, I think it was something to the effect of like, when, when the in-house department finally gets the bill from the outside counsel, and they’re all like, mortified. And that was, that was me on like 4 occasions. So it resonated, when I made it, I was like, I wish I could make my face on 1 of the boxes.

28:13 Rob Hanna:

It’s so true, though, isn’t it having those real life experiences can really bring that sort of creativity to the memes and, you know, they really pack a punch in terms of also message, you know, the underwriting thing, and not only that, bring that sort of smile and, you know, the human side, but there’s a real kind of undertone and a message there. And I guess with that, you know, I still face mass resistance from people in the legal industry, obviously, we run, you know, KC Partners is 1 of the largest sort of legal legal talent recruiting firms. And a lot of legal professionals are risk averse, and still sort of, you know, give me the high eyebrows about this podcast thing and this social media thing. And, you know, so do you think more legal professionals should embrace social media? And if so, why?

28:56 Matt Margolis:

Like, 1,000% actually. It’s, I get oh man. I used to get torched. I used to get torched all the time. What are you doing that? Like I remember, I was at a wedding once who before I can get to that, but I was at a wedding and someone had come up to me and they were like, hey Matt, I see you posting on TikTok and this is just prior to covid. And not TikTok, I’m sorry on LinkedIn, like yeah, he’s like, I don’t, I don’t understand anything you’re saying, but you know, like, I guess keep it up, and I’m like cool. Thanks. So, so it’s incredibly important. And I’ll say this, like with a gigantic caveat, I don’t know how it works outside of the United States. In the United States, you obviously have to post within the bounds of your, your ethical obligations. Also in keeping in consideration, whatever the bar rules or the ABA rules are relating to solicitations, whatever, okay, that’s all done, that was my legal disclaimer. You’ve got to post on social, you have to be present. Social media is the, I, like the window, right the window to everybody, everyone, everyone can see through the window and see what you’re doing. And maybe it’s, you can argue that’s, that’s potentially superficial. But once someone looks in the window, right, like your window shopping, maybe they want to come in, maybe they want to come in and they want to talk, they want to maybe they want to buy that when whatever was in the window that you were presenting. And it provides such a level of visibility for you, that you can build upon with your traditional in person meetings, coffee events. I mean, it’s just, it’s the best way, it’s just the best way. And if you’re not an adopter of social at this point, you’re not an adopter of social media, not necessarily just marketing, but just going on social media to post about yourself, or, you know, maybe a little bit what you do, you’re missing out tremendously.

30:45 Rob Hanna:

And this is a really important point. So I know we’ve we’ve had a, you know, very light hearted discussion, and people still may think, you know, social media, social media is serious folks, because, you know, if you’re not visible, you’re invisible. And we live in a world now, which is more hyper connected, and sort of socially connected, that you have every opportunity to make your business stand out. And the best known beats the best, you know, and I’m still to this day an advocate believer of that in the modern society, and just need to Google your name and you’ll see that your probably your LinkedIn URL will appear before any website that you feature on. So having an outdated, not up-to- date LinkedIn profile or things like that, you’re just not giving yourself a chance of standing out. And social media, a free welcome mat. So a lot of the basic versions are giving you an opportunity to talk and build community daily. So that’s my preach done. And it leads to my sort of last question for you now, Matt, which I know you’ll probably want to build on what I just said, but what advice would you give to lawyers, or those in the legal profession wanting to start their own community, or join and get involved with social media platforms?

31:51 Matt Margolis:

Before I get to that, now I’m afraid, like should I Google myself. I just want to Google like. So, how to start your community, how to start? I guess the, what you should do at ground zero is post what you know. And everyone, I always get this, like, from folks like me, especially younger attorneys, like I don’t know what to post. I don’t know a lot about an industry or maybe I don’t know what, you know, something about something, yeah, post about that thing, start to try to engage with folks that do that. So if you’re afraid to post, let’s just start you know, start before that, if you’re afraid to post which I don’t think you should be afraid to post, especially on LinkedIn is a great platform to post, you know, on a variety of topics without getting thrashed like you’re on Twitter or TikTok, or what have you is, I would, I would start commenting on folks in your space, or the space that you want to be in where you where you want to build your community. Get people a company, you know, accustomed to you, your name your face, to what you have to say your message. And then from there, when you start posting those same people will return the favour on your posts. And will you know, eventually, if what you have to say is a great message, you can message, a message that can resonate, you know, that they resonate with, they will comment back and they will also spread your message and they will help you build your community. So that’s, that would be my advice.

33:15 Rob Hanna:

And it’s a really good piece of advice, particularly probably, let’s stick with LinkedIn, which is, you know, the largest professional networking site in the world, over 800 million professionals. The common is the cold call, folks. You don’t need to cold call anymore, you can engage with key stakeholders, leads, prospects when an insightful comment and create that first touch point engagement. And like Matt said, if you put something of quality, or something that’s memorable, people are going to check you out. And you can start the conversation from there and lifting other people up, you know, it’s really unknown secret sauce that everyone should know, but still don’t know particularly the legal profession. Being a kind human and lifting others up is amazing what it can do for you online, in an authentic way. You know, you have to show some, some authenticity, but there are things that, you know, really if you’re thinking of getting started, and the other thing, which is a really important skill, even myself that I’m trying to perfect, which we all need to have, because we all have 1 is storytelling. If you’re good at storytelling, and everyone has a story because everyone has the opportunity to share it. That’s the thing and I always say the 2 pieces of advice when it comes to storytelling. Remember these 3 words when I was, there’s a great way to start or try with 3 short sharp sentences because you want to get people hooked so you could, say it finally happened, can’t believe I’m saying this, but here goes and just 3 short sharp sentences that you’re gonna get people hooked in, gonna start storytelling and going on. So really perfect your storytelling folks because like Matt, he has incredible content he’s built an incredible community. But he’s also a fantastic storyteller. And I think there’s something in that. So Matt, it’s been an absolute pleasure having you on the show. And if our listeners want to learn more about Lawtrades or your social media platforms, what’s the best way for them to contact you feel free. Also shout out your social media handles and web links, and we’ll also share them with this episode too.

34:56 Matt Margolis:

Awesome. Alright. So if you want to see myself, I’m Matt Margolis, find me on LinkedIn, if you’re gonna find me literally anywhere else it’s at It’s Matt’s Law. Now, if you’re looking for Lawtrades, literally, Lawtrades, go on LinkedIn, we’re really big on LinkedIn for Lawtrades. Otherwise, we have really fun content across the board. And it’s also surprising enough at Lawtrades. So come find us, check us out.

35:22 Rob Hanna:

Thank you so much, Matt. It’s been an absolute pleasure having you on the show. And I would just like to wish you on behalf of everyone on the Legally Speaking Podcast, lots of continued success with your new role as Head of Community, but for now, from all of us, over and out.