Cryptocurrency in the Law Industry – Daniel Lo – S6E4

00:04 Rob Hanna:

Welcome to the Legally Speaking Podcast. I’m your host Rob Hanna. This week I’m delighted to be joined once again by Daniel Lo. Daniel has featured on the show previously in Season 3. And since then he’s gone on to become the General Counsel of Cake DeFi, an exciting organisation that enables cash flow from Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies on a 1 stop platform. Daniel is still based in Singapore specialising in decentralised finance, DeFi and digital assets. And in addition, Daniel is a Career Strategist, assisting students with training contracts, and law school applications as well as personal branding. Daniel is a triple qualified lawyer of Canada, Ontario and Alberta, England and Wales and the British Virgin Islands. Daniel is also passionate about all things Web3 with a keen interest in blockchain, crypto and DeFi, so a very, very warm welcome back, Daniel.

00:59 Daniel Lo:

Rob, thank you so much. And I swear nothing can be beat that introduction. So thank you so much for that.

01:06 Rob Hanna:

No, it’s my absolute pleasure. And before we dive into all your amazing achievements today, we still have our customary icebreaker question here on the Legally Speaking Podcast. So curious to see if your number has changed. But on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being very real, what would you rate the hit TV series Suits in terms of its reality?

01:26 Daniel Lo:

What did I say last time? I think last time I said a 6, right? It’s probably a 4 now. Yeah. Probably a 4.

01:34 Rob Hanna:

Okay, fair enough. And with a 4, we will move swiftly on. So to begin with, let’s recap, tell us a little bit more, you know, for reminding us a bit about your background and your career journey since we, we last had you on the show?

01:48 Daniel Lo:

Sure. I mean, I can start from the beginning. So you know, originally, I’m from Hong Kong. I moved to Toronto when I was 5 years old and basically completed my undergrad at U of T which is University of Toronto, did poli-sci which I thought was partly kind of useless. But anyway, so that led me to law school in Birmingham in the UK, after which I did my LPC at City University of London and then finally back at the U of T doing an LLM in securities regulation. Now, I started my professional career at an investment bank in Toronto doing OTC derivatives, contracts and negotiations. After that, I did a training contract and 1 year of practice in the energy M&A group at Dentons in Canada. After that experience, I realised that you know what, I really want to do an international stint, whether that’s in London, or Hong Kong or Singapore, so I decided to move to Asia and I moved to Hong Kong where I was originally from. And over there, I worked a few years in-house and worked at a private equity firm, did that for a bit and then moved over to Singapore because I wanted to try another new city in Asia but wasn’t ready to go back home yet. So I moved to Singapore and I worked at Walker’s which is an offshore law firm doing investment funds and corporate transactions, UBS afterwards doing asset management work. And then most recently, like you said, into crypto at Cake DeFi, which is a decentralised finance crypto company in Singapore as their GC.

03:16 Rob Hanna:

It’s such an inspiring journey Daniel. And I just love what you have gone on to achieve. And I guess my question would be, you know, from a career progression point of view, going from a non-crypto into a crypto backed, crypto role, how did you make that happen?

03:31 Daniel Lo:

Yeah, so I mean, as you know, crypto is fairly new, and it’s growing quickly. So there are very few lawyers out there that have direct relevant crypto experience. So when you hear someone say, oh, I’ve been a crypto lawyer for years, you know, call BS on that, because there’s no way. But crypto companies are always looking for those with a kind of broad base corporate experiences or commercial backgrounds with good exposure and knowledge of crypto. So I think for me, there are 2 factors in helping me pivot into crypto. 1 is self-learning. And the other is networking, surprisingly. So on the first bit on self-learning, I was actually very curious myself on crypto investing. And I learned on my own watching YouTube videos, reading, coin Gecko and coin, coin, coin telegraph all these other publications on crypto myself, and I traded myself very slowly, very small, but eventually got the use of it and actually I learned the lingo, which is really important because when you speak to crypto people, if you don’t understand the lingo, they may not see you as an insider. So for me, that was really important. Second factor, which helped me was actually meeting the right people at the right time. So as you know, I am a big fan of networking, building a brand on LinkedIn, but also building communities. So in my time in Singapore, I actually did meet up with a crypto lawyer who was at Cake DeFi, prior to me and met him a few times and then afterwards, coming to these networking events, he told me, you know what, I’m moving on to another company as their GC, but there is a role open here, would you be interested? Now, the role at this point wasn’t advertised yet. So it was hard for me to find this role if I were to look on LinkedIn. But because I knew him, I met him on prior occasions, and I continued to build a relationship with the network that I developed, this opportunity came up. So you know, that’s all to say, crypto community is really small. And networking is very key.

05:29 Rob Hanna:

Yeah. And I love that. And you just give a great example of how you know, the benefits of networking is not only just to grow your network, but can really benefit your career and that opportunities that have come through your door. And obviously, you’re great at building a personal brand and building communities. And you know, it’s something I’m exceptionally passionate about, as well, Daniel. So I just want to sort of really highlight this is a great case study for people to follow in Daniel’s footsteps, because you never know, of opportunities that might come your way. And now this has sort of enabled you to get into the what I believe is the now and the future. So congratulations on that. And thanks for sharing your, your story. But you are part of the you know, the General Counsel at Cake DeFi. As I mentioned, it’s a platform making decentralised financial services and crypto currencies available to everyone, which is super, super cool. So when did you know if you were ready to take a General Counsel role? And is this based on your post qualification level or any intangibles like the commercial, commercial awareness that you have? How did it happen?

06:27 Daniel Lo:

Yeah, so I’m gonna give you the biggest non-answer ever. It depends and also a bit of both. I think the term GC really means something different depending on the organisation you’re in, the industry you’re in. So for instance, if you’re looking at a major investment bank, a GC would be anyone with 20 years and above PQE. Whereas for a startup, you maybe see a GC with only 4 to 5 years PQE. So it really depends. But I think for the kind of crypto startup space, you’re looking at between the 4 to 8 level, I think that’s because at this level, you have a base level of theoretical knowledge, and also practical experience you’ve gained from either private practice or other in-house roles. I think for most importantly, aside from having a base level competency, you need to be generally confident and resourceful enough to take on this sometimes sole legal counsel role. So that’s really key. And also being able to manage stakeholders, because you’re not only managing the executive, the CEO, CTO, CFO, but also having to deal with product team members or marketing team members, or developers that may not understand legal nuances that you need to explain clearly, and also make them happy. But I mean, like, lastly, a lot of people talk about commercial awareness, whether that’s actually important here. And I think commercial consciousness is what I usually refer to. Less so awareness. Consciousness is kind of like, in my mind, any advice that you give, you have to stand by your advice, your legal advice, but also make decisions based on business realities. And I think in any in-house setting, this is more important. And it really does highlight what kind of lawyer you are.

08:12 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, no, absolutely. I was going to touch on commercial awareness, because you mentioned it there. And it’s so true. And you provide so much advice to sort of, I guess, young law students and trainees and professionals around this. Is there any tips for people how maybe they can look to improve their commercial awareness?

08:30 Daniel Lo:

Yeah, I think with commercial awareness, there’s exercises you can do. You know, when you’re reading legal notes or legal cases, there’s always a strict legal stance on it. But for you, try to exercise because for me, commercial awareness means understanding the legal stance on matter, but being willing to deviate from that standard to be more commercially friendly, and justifying it. So you mitigate risk, because there will always be risk. So in your startup role, you know, sometimes you may be asked to push the envelope to the point where you may be offside with the law, but how do you manage that? How do you mitigate against that? So in case someone does ask you, you have a justification. That’s, that’s an exercise that I try to do constantly such, such as if you were to backdate a document that’s clearly illegal, but how do you mitigate that? What else do you do that? How do you help you, I guess, explain that away?

09:25 Rob Hanna:

Yeah. And again, I love that how you give such practical tips and advice to people and how they can really improve, you know, on that commercial awareness for the next generation of legal talent, so I appreciate you, you’re doing that for us, Daniel as well.

09:39 Rob Hanna:

Time for a quick break from the show. Are you a legal aid practitioner in England and Wales specialising in civil or criminal legal aid matters? If you are, this message is for you. As a legal aid solicitor, you don’t have time to waste on legal aid case management software that doesn’t work to your needs. That’s why Clio has developed a quicker, more accurate and affordable solution for legal aid solicitors in England and Wales. It could save you hours in your month, particularly when it comes to end of month invoicing and claims to the legal aid agency. To see how it all works visit Clio dot com forward slash UK forward slash legal aid. That’s Clio c l i o dot com forward slash UK forward slash legal aid. Now back to the show. Let’s move on then, you know, what is the code is law and why is this important? Tell us more.

10:38 Daniel Lo:

Yeah, code is law is the new buzzword within kind of crypto legal spheres. In short, crypto code is law is basically a form of regulation, where technology is used to enforce existing laws and rules in the real world. So the idea is if a crypto platform or a crypto service has a loophole, and someone takes advantage of it, then there must, it must have been there for on purpose, and there should be no liability on the user who took advantage. Now, clearly, that’s, this is obviously a defence that exploiters use when they misappropriate funds. And you see all these rug pulls and, you know, like, crypto misappropriations, and, and just straight up theft, through bugs and loopholes. But luckily enough through recent case law, and it’s currently being litigated right now, and a lot of courts, recent case law has illustrated that while the law cannot always reach directly into crypto wallets and remove misappropriate assets, individual defendants remain well within its reach. So if you can be identified as a defendant, you’re pretty much going to be on the hook for the funds that you misappropriated. So it really doesn’t reinforce that even when we enter into this Web3 era, law is still law, it will continue to triumph over code as long as an argument.

11:54 Rob Hanna:

Yeah. And again, I love how you, you showcase that. So I always say to people, you know, with, you know, treat the law, as you’re in Web1, Web2, or Web3, the way you behave, you know, the law is still there. It’s still the law. So I love how you’re sort of shining a light on that you’re so progressive. So let’s talk about, I guess, being ahead of the curve and future proofing. You know, how do you future proof your legal career with crypto?

12:18 Daniel Lo:

Yeah, I think for me, it depends on if you want to get into crypto, if you do want to get into crypto Web3, DeFi, GameFi, trade by whatever fine, you should really start educating yourself. Because right now, it’s not being taught in schools, it is completely self-taught. And it almost becomes, if you make it into sphere and the sphere, you become a self-made crypto expert. So really start going on YouTube watching tutorials. Talking to crypto friends or startup founders, developers, even those in the marketing side and crypto, they know a lot because they need to decipher the complex nature of a product before they can actually pitch it to customers and users. So you know, all in all, is to say, really try to educate yourself through talking to people and reading up on it. There’s a bunch of books I can obviously recommend. The 1 that always comes up is called Blockchain and the Law, really helpful. Also, there’s handbooks that like Kryptonians is another 1 that I’m actually reading right now, really interesting on recent developments and the rug pulls and whatnot. So I mean, for me, I’m really bullish on this future. So, if you get in now, make a name for yourself now in crypto, in 10 years time you are seen as the crypto pioneer. Similar to early days when the oil and gas lawyers start to build up the practice. Unfortunately, it’s sunsetting now, but they’ve had a fantastic few decades of growth and expansion. So I think that’s what you can look forward to.

13:47 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, so so true. And you know, now is the time and I still did advise people, it’s still early, you know, it’s super exciting times, but it’s still early, there’s every opportunity to get in there. And, you know, given some very practical things about you know, getting into YouTube, there’s some really good sort of initial things, videos that you can be watching people, I would definitely encourage people to follow Daniel as well, obviously, he’s in, in the market, in the spaces and through that you’ll meet people in his community in his networks that also help up-skill you and educate you in this world. So, you know, let’s talk come from a legal perspective then, Daniel, what type of legal exposure is evident in a crypto company typically?

14:21 Daniel Lo:

Yeah, I think a lot of people have this misnomer that crypto companies are this unicorn completely brand new beasts and be hard to kind of adapt, but it’s not. I think crypto company at its core is a tech company with a finance spin. Some would say it’s akin to a FinTech company. So all the legal exposure they see with a regular tech company, you have it here. Regulations, you see product. You see licensing as well. Corporate governance, everything, litigation, IP, these are all part and parcel of a crypto company because they are just like a regular tip, tech company.

14:57 Rob Hanna:

Yeah. And I love it. You know, it’s just, it’s just such progression that, you know, it’s so exciting that, you know, the legal industry and parts of lawyers have every opportunity to be in the thick of what I see as this sort of generational shift in technologies that we’re gonna be embracing day to day. And I just love the whole concept of Web3, the Metaverse and crypto and everything that’s going on. So let’s go to DeFi then. You know, what are the major legal pain points for DeFi crypto companies right now?

15:25 Daniel Lo:

I think if you ask any DeFi crypto company, it is hands down crypto regulation. More so the uncertainty whether your product will be captured by regulators as a security, as moneylending, as derivative. These are all things that you, you constantly juggle. Because if you are subject to licensing, it may be a long process. If you do not get the license, are you now shut off from that jurisdiction? Right? With crypto, it’s a global business, you’re not restricted to just Germany or just the US. It is global in scope. So really monitoring global regulations around crypto is a full-time job on its own. And I think that’s really the main pain point right now.

16:06 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, no, and I so true when you talk about the sort of the regulation side of things, but you know, in a way, it’s it’s good because I think, you know, the markets are moving in the right direction. And hopefully we’ll be building more trust for for mass mass adoption in in the future. So I mentioned in the introduction, Daniel, you are still based in Singapore. So how is Singapore setting itself up to be crypto hub? For si si token? So tell us more.

16:31 Daniel Lo:

Yeah, I I’m gonna say lukewarm. So I think Singapore, very, very bullish and very open to crypto. They enacted the Payment Services Act, which governs rules around FinTech and crypto, it also establishes a licensing regime for crypto players. But I think it’s actually in response to capitalising on Hong Kong being in current state it is in. But also because Hong Kong has been focusing more on accredited investors in the crypto space less so retail investors. So that’s where Singapore is actually trying to shine is applying, allowing the business, businesses here to focus on both retail and accredit investors. But lately, it seems like they’re taking firmer stance in terms of protecting retail investors. You can see this with crypto advertising, they have put a ban on crypto advertising to retail retailers. And you’re seeing also an exodus of crypto companies that are based in Singapore headquartered, but are moving to Dubai. Dubai is another jurisdiction that’s vying for this kind of global crypto hubbard title, that in Abu Dhabi, as well. So I think in the next few years, you’re going to see a lot of push and pull between these jurisdictions. And I’m still bullish on Singapore and still confident that we will turn it around because we serve a very important market here, the Southeast Asia market. So for me, it’s it’s Singapore or nothing.

17:56 Rob Hanna:

Love it, love the bullish outlook there. And you’re touching on it and talking about sort of, you know, Dubai and other areas, and I guess, you know, is there anything else you would say or trends that you predict within the crypto market because in 2020 we had DeFi, in 2021 we’ve had NFTs, I’m working on some projects myself, you know, what can we expect in 2022 and beyond?

18:16 Daniel Lo:

Yeah, I think NFTs are still going really strong, so you’ll probably continue to see that. NFTs in terms of arts, I’ve never really understood, but recently, a friend actually explained to me that NFTs serve more than art purposes, it’s actually more like a membership. So whereby you buy a Board Apes and you eventually have access to Board Apes events, or access to the artists that did it or had access to a special airport lounge that is partnering with Board Apes, that’s the value of NFTs. It’s basically a membership access to these private events or private venues. So I think NFTs will still see quite strong, but more so you’ll see probably GameFi coming up. GameFi is basically gamifying traditional finance kind of thing so when you play a game, you’re harvesting and you’re you’re mining Bitcoin. That’s actually how you adopt a lot more regular people into crypto, which is the GameFi making it easy making fun, but also with GameFi you’re seeing a resurgence of DeFi, because after you say you mind on the game, mind Bitcoin, what do you do with that? Well with DeFi you can deposit it into an account and let it earn money and earn interest for you while doing nothing. So you’re gonna see I think those 3 things and NFTs remaining strong, GameFi and DeFi coming up.

19:35 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, super exciting trends. So definitely people you want to be keeping in touch with with Daniel to keep on the finger on the pulse with all of these things. And finally, Daniel as a Career Strategist, you know, what advice would you give to any aspiring lawyers or law students who are interested in a legal career in crypto. What can they do to prepare now?

19:56 Daniel Lo:

Yeah, so I think what you can do as an aspiring lawyer or law student is network, honestly, it’s the easiest way to actually get in, network with crypto lawyers. Reach out to me, reach out to whoever else is in the sphere, reach out to developers, you know, just put yourself out there and be willing to learn and be willing to engage in conversation. There are a lot of crypto communities out there that are, you know, meeting up regularly either on Discord, or in person. So I would recommend any law student or lawyer they’re interested in entering the space to join those conversations now. Build that network and once again, in 10 years time, you’re gonna be the pioneer in crypto.

20:39 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, couldn’t couldn’t agree more. Now’s the time to act, folks. And, Daniel, if our listeners would like to learn more about crypto or your mentorship, which I’m sure they will, what would be the best way for them to contact you. Feel free to shout out any social media or web links? And we’ll also share them with this episode for you too.

20:56 Daniel Lo:

Yeah, I think in terms of content, you can look at YouTube. Whiteboard crypto is 1 that I follow quite often, and they really do, they really dumbed down the crypto concepts for you. Easy to understand. Also, there are a lot of YouTube or crypto influencers like Raoul Pal, that talk about more macro-economic impacts of crypto, that’s all kind of very interesting to understand as well but I think yeah, Whiteboard Crypto, easy, quick 3 minute videos and you understand the concepts much easier.

21:30 Rob Hanna:

Awesome. Well, Daniel, I would just like to say thank you so so much, it’s been an absolute pleasure having you back on the show and congratulations on your career going from strength to strength and you know, now a sort of General Counsel at Cake DeFi, such exciting times for you and the legal sector as a whole and industry ahead. So just like to wish you lots of continued success with your career and future pursuits. But for now, from all of us on the Legally Speaking Podcast over and out. This week’s review comes from Adam Nor, great informative podcast, 5 stars. I love the Legally Speaking Podcast, I feel it finds the balance between being informative and lighthearted, really well. Great guests within the legal sector as well. Thank you so much, Adam. We really appreciate all your kind words from all of us on the Legally Speaking Podcast. Thanks a million once again.