On today’s Legally Speaking Podcast, I am delighted to be joined by Patrick McCann.

Patrick is the Chief Executive of the City of London Law Society, representing more than 21,000 solicitors and some of the largest law firms in the world. With more than 30 years of experience across legal practice, learning, development and talent strategy, Patrick has become one of the most influential voices shaping the legal profession. Before joining the London Law Society, Patrick served as the Global Director of Learning at Linklaters, and held senior leadership positions at Herbert Smith Freehills, BCLP and Bird & Bird. Today, we are exploring the future of the legal profession. We will discuss leadership, talent, social mobility, apprenticeships, legal innovation and how the legal sector can continue to evolve whilst remaining human.

So why should you be listening in? 

You can hear Rob and Patrick discussing:

– Top Talent No Longer Being Defined by Traditional Credentials

– How Leadership is Measured by Authenticity & Emotional Clarity

– The Legal Sector’s Evolution

– A Collective Shift from Competition to Collaboration

– Why We Need to Improve Senses of Purpose and Well-Being.

Connect with Patrick McCann here – https://uk.linkedin.com/in/patrick-mccann-066017207

Transcript

We just need to be less critical. I think we’re getting quite good at bringing people in to some degree, but we’re not paying enough attention to making sure that those people feel that they’re part of something and making sure that the allocation of opportunity both to get it but also the work, the exposure, the client getting, having your names on things, that that needs to be really, really dealt with. If it is the the knowing of the law, the doing of the law becomes slightly less important because AI can do some of that for you, then you might need another skill set in addition.

Instead of. And I think that’s where you want driven, connected, networked, passionate, clever, ambitious people. On today’s Legally Speaking podcast, sponsored by Cleo, I’m delighted to be joined by Patrick McCann. Patrick is the chief executive of City of London Law Society, representing more than 21,000 solicitors and some of the largest law firms in the world with more than 30 years of experience across legal practice, learning, development, and talent strategy.

Patrick has become one of the most influential voices shaping the legal profession. Before joining the London Law Society, Patrick served as the Global Director of Learning at Linklators and held senior leadership positions at Herbert Smith Freehill, BCLP and Bird and Bird. Together we’re exploring the future of the legal profession.

We will discuss leadership, talent, social mobility, apprenticeships, legal innovation, and how the legal sector can continue to evolve whilst remaining human. So Patrick, a very, very warm welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me on I’m on the UK’s number one law podcast. Seems quite a moment for me, so I’m I’m very appreciative ⁓ and and and very admirous of the work that you do. So ⁓ thank you for allowing me to be part of that. Thank you. I’m a huge fan of your work and I’m delighted we’ve been able to make this discussion.

Work. but before we get into the the meat and potatoes, if you like, we have a couple of quick fire fun icebreaker questions. Firstly, what’s your favourite beverage and your preferred choice of footwear on a typical work day? I I’m so dull. ⁓ I’m I’m a sparkling water sort of a person. So although I will have a Hugo Schwitz at a push. And I’m known for my trainers. So ⁓ I have don’t tell my husband, but I’ve probably got a few hundred pairs ⁓ of trainers. And I certainly buy

I buy a second hand pair most weeks. So it’s it’s not at all a problem. It’s absolutely normal behaviour. ⁓ and that’s what I wear at work. ⁓ and in fact tomorrow I’m meeting the Sarah Sackman, the Minister for Courts and Justice, and I’m just going over my head about whether I’m gonna wear trainers and I think I probably am. So ⁓ yeah, I’m a trainer’s boy.

Love it. And I won’t tell your husband, but just in case some of the listeners that may know your husband will connect to the show, that could potentially get leaked. So I’m putting my disclaimer in there to make sure I completely knows if he were ever to count them. ⁓ he he what did he he said? I think we need to acknowledge you have a problem. That’s what he said to me a couple of weeks ago. I don’t think we need to acknowledge that at all, so so we won’t be doing that.

Nope. And we’re going to move swiftly on to another quick bar question. One piece of legal tech or everyday technology you now rely on that you thought would have been unthinkable at the start of your career? Yeah, so look, I think I think the first thing to say is I’m l it’s lovely to be here for speaking about the future of law. I’m probably at the end of my law bit or towards the end of it, so that there’s a bit of a you know, that’s a bit of a conflict there for me. ⁓ and legal tech has come, I would say, probably a little bit too late, ⁓ for me for me to be fully invested in it and and and fully do it.

And certainly when I speak to other people who do use legal tech properly, Helen Burness, for example, and I tell her what I’m doing, her face just drops in disappointment. She’s like, but you know, I’m Stan Proud and proud, I am losing it ⁓ a bit. I tend to use it more for me than the organization. City of London Law Society, we’re we’re four people and we use bits, but n not in the same way that my former firm, Link Laters would. But I use it for maybe three main purposes. So so certainly sort of

document research and analysis. I also quite like it for when I’ve just got some ideas and I’m just trying to formulate them into something that makes sense. And then thirdly, ⁓ and this is I think where I’m unusual, maybe I I also use it ⁓ to help me with emotional matters, how I might deal with difficult meetings or thoughts that I’m having or just getting myself to just cope with myself. ⁓

So I use it for those sorts sorts of things, maybe. And and and obviously research. when you when you do it. Yeah, no, re really good points. And good to shout out Helen as well. Big fan of Helen and she’s a fan of the As well and quite a few unsensible people as well are fans of Helen. Well, Patrick, let’s start the short version of your journey, beginning of your career, obviously, Bird and Birds, becoming chief executive now of where you sit today of City of Law.

London society. Tell us a bit about your journey. Yeah, so it’s interesting that you want short. I’m not known for my concise communication. I’m I’m called hashtag chatty patty for a reason, but in short, or as short as I can make it, ⁓ Little Gaykid, a neurodiverse state school university, posh university in London, law, German law, Denton’s as a lawyer, went to a high street firm after that, ⁓ but had close to a breakdown at that

that point, five years in legal conferencing, went back into Burden Bird two thousand in an in an L and D role, sort of adult education bit, ⁓ moved to B L P, moved to HSF, ⁓ and then moved to ⁓ Lick Laters, as you mentioned, as a director. And and a fairly slow burn, but I think I sort of had in mind that I would try and bounce up and and I ended up in, you know, what I think is probably widely regarded as one of the world’s top law firms in in a in a senior position. And I’ve ⁓ I’ve spent about

six years in about five different law firms as as an average and and I taught ⁓ aerobics and s and spin classes in a sixth law firm for twenty years. ⁓ so so I’ve been in and around for I think thirty seven years ⁓ at this stage in and around London law. And that’s why we’re so keen to have the conversations you’ve got such a wealth of experience and knowledge from so many different environments and you know you’ve had many years leading on the sort of learning development side in terms of programmes at some of the world’s best law firms as you actually mentioned.

What first attracted you to that people development side of the profession and what did you learn from working with generations of lawyers throughout your career? I think the first thing to say was I’ve probably a quite an unhappy lawyer. ⁓ you know, I did five years at uni and post-uni and then five years of working and I was in litigation and I found that really difficult. I’m sort of a quite creative free thinker, don’t like rules, don’t like regulations, don’t like being bossed about.

type person and that’s not great if you’re in litigation. If you’re in working litigation, something has by definition gone wrong. So people are already in the mood in a mood. And then you you put on a whole load of court timetables on top of that and on high stake stuff. And it makes for not a great stake for me. But so I moved in ⁓ to sort of learning and development and because it just felt more sort of creative. It gives people ⁓

space. ⁓ you can see you can really see people transform. If you give them space, if you give them some attention, if you listen, if you give them some solutions, some guidance, ⁓ some good practice. That that’s the bit that I really lived for, because you could just see people transform. And you know, some of the really high performers just became even better. And some of the ones that were in a funk, you could just help them come out of that. So that’s what I really loved. And then and then alongside that from going to L and D, I was always sort of working in an HR

capacity as well. And I remember my happiest time was well one of my happiest times was probably at BLP when I was on a three person strong HR leadership team and we could at lunch one day make a decision. We could implement it the next day and two or three weeks later you could actually see the difference. It was it was that fast. It was not like one of the you know the big corporates. So I I really love that. I found that in fact quite intoxicating just to to be able to make positive difference.

Yeah, and absolutely I’m sure you get a lot of intrinsic value from that as well, particularly people who perhaps are in that funk and through your work and actually helping them get out the other side of that, I think is a really nice feeling, obviously good work that’s been done. I remember going back to LinkedIn seeing a retirement announcement from you, Patrick. So after a successful time at Link Lators and many years of involvement at the City of London Law Society Committee, training committee.

What then motivated you? I think it was the shortest retirement maybe in the legal profession we’ve seen of all time. I could be wrong. And I maintain that what I say is the truth. ⁓ truth of the matter is I I burnt out ⁓ at Link Laters. ⁓ I was doing the Link Laters job, I was running City Century, I was running a a a social welfare solicitors qualification fund, I was running a fairly active LinkedIn ⁓ and I was doing loads of other stuff.

And I got to the stage where it got quite scary actually. I was ⁓ you know, I’d seen a psychiatrist, I’d seen the company doctor, I had a therapist and I had medication. and it and I was really working well. I was getting lots of attention. The projects or teams I led were shortlisted for twenty five national awards in my last y year or two. We won ⁓ over half of them. But I felt like I was in some sort of top level of some really

dangerous video game where something could go go wrong. and so there was a real cost of that. And so I I had to retire to survive essentially. I my husband looked at me one day and he said, I’m now I’m now very worried. something needs to change. So I had to stimulate some conversations and that led to me leaving. And so I you know, I retired end of January, I got a phone call, I saw a LinkedIn post, I thought I’ll give it a go. ⁓

And ⁓ the the potential was was huge, I felt. I felt at the time the CLS was a sleeping giant. It has this incredible resource, this incredible network, and it just wasn’t really, I think, doing enough. So I just felt there was a a real potential. And and and then the chairman of the CLLS, Colin Parson, was someone I’d known for 30 years and had probably wanted to work with for about 30 years. So when that opportunity came up, I thought, you know what, there here is someone that I can learn from. And then the the best thing, and no offense to any of the law firms I I work for.

⁓ it’s lovely working not in a massive corporate. I might be representing ⁓ you know, seventy odd corporates, but I do not

work in it. I’m not right in the middle of it. I don’t have that intensity, that madness, that sort of Death Star experience that you have when you’re in the middle of it. And so that just felt like an opportunity ⁓ I should take. And I I just thought I could do some stuff with it. So that’s sort of what I wanted to do. so I de retired. and at some point I will re retire. ⁓ but at the moment I’m derired. The industry’s richer for you being with us and the work that you’re doing is is commendable and I you I tip my hat to you and I also thank you for being so authentic and open with your stories and that’s something that’s really important because

you know the legal profession in whichever aspects you you come at it whether you’re practicing you’re in and around it you know is is is demanding so thank you for for sharing that and thank you for all the work that you’re doing to help out. ⁓ I’m I’m not putting up with that anymore. and I and I won’t I won’t be told that I’m any worse than anybody else ⁓ and I will be part of being neurodiverse at least my bit of neurodiversity is just the sort

run to honesty and and I and it I think it helps people so so I will do it for that. I agree and I think this is where we’re we’re hopefully attracting the conversations from people that we want to, you know, who have gone past that point, who are willing to be, you know, them themselves and and talk about the work they’re doing. And that probably leads nicely to the state of the legal profession as as you see it, because you have a unique perspective across from law firms, legal education, professional development. What do you think are the biggest opportunities but also challenges facing legal industry over the coming years? Obviously AI is

the potential we are took being told by legal tech providers is is massive and maybe there’s some truth in that. For me I think the biggest potential we have always had, but particularly now because people are unleashing themselves, is the talent we have within and around ⁓ the sector. I think the other bit is just the closeness and the speed of connection and communication that we can have ⁓ around the world. You can do, you know, anything around the world. So we one of my roles in the City of London Law Society is to make sure that we fight to

have that work done here. Like 40% of the legal work on deals is done, you know, under UK law. So we want to make sure that happens. I also think the opportunity is from the incoming generations who are very vocal about what they need. I I really like that. That was not how it was when I was a kid. you did not say what you wanted. I love that. I think that forces mediocre middle management to to up their game. And then because I have a particular affection for them, the solicitor apprentices who are

coming in from underrepresented communities. I just find that really stimulating. I just think they’re just brilliant. And then the challenges though, the one that really keeps me awake at night is the push for profits and the the exponential increase in in how much law firm and law firm senior managing partners are expecting to earn for their partners and the impact that has on those partners, on the teams that work for them, on the work that we do, on the things that clients feel that they can do for us. I I question whether the

core values that I thought we signed up for. Ethics, upstanding, fighting for the smaller person, doing things right, creating a better society, making sure we have fantastic deals and and and and matters being delivered. I I don’t know whether that’s right at the centre of what we’re doing. I think the other challenge is just the generational ⁓ disconnect between what we need to generate those profits and what the younger generation are

are prepared to deliver. I I also I observe slash worry about what AI will do in terms of taking away some of our purpose, our value, taking away our learning experiences and where we find space ⁓ for those people. You know, it’s now a low tech bros that could be making billions of pounds worth of money out of things that we used to make money for. ⁓ and then exhaustion, just generally in society, I think there’s just so much stimulus around.

not just in the legal sector, but I think it depletes people really, really quickly. Constantly on, there’s lots of conflict, there’s lots of rush, it’s speedy, it’s judgmental, it’s divisive, all of that. ⁓ I think that’s just yeah. There is exhaustion out there. And there’s also, you know, mentors have said to me, look, Robert, we’re drowning in information and craving wisdom. And that’s why we’re looking for voices like yourself that are going to come on and, you know, impart that also be real.

⁓ and I think the key point you mentioned about the next generation as well. I’ve been interviewed many times and I say if nothing changes, nothing changes. I think good that there’s demands from the the the upcoming through and actually they have talents, they have skills, they have voices that should be heard and from a range of different backgrounds. So I advocate for that. And so that leads probably on to social mobility, which I know is something you’re very passionate about and you’ve been heavily involved in initiatives such as social welfare welfare solicitors, ⁓ qualifications fund and city century as you’ve mentioned. So why is social mobility such an important factor in

in the legal sector and where do you think the progress still needs to be made? I think we all know that the legal sector, including the city legal sector, maybe particularly the city legal sector, has been elitist. The the access to it ⁓ has been restricted by those who can afford to get themselves the experience, the qualifications, the connections that they need in order to to access it. And certainly certainly, you know, for most people you have to get yourself to a degree. so you’ve got to incur a hundred thousand pounds worth of of

study rate to get to get to there. and that elitism thing I find really offensive. ⁓ and that includes because as I was growing up, as a queer sort of ⁓ German English Catholic y type kid, slightly weird, ⁓ slightly odd, there were there were doors that were closed to me and and conversations to which I was not invited and and groups of which I was not part. So on behalf of of that kid who was seven or eight years old when that was beginning to happen,

I I I feel that I need to not have that happen to anybody else. So I have a theory which drives a lot of my work, which is the London bus theory, which is that in London, if you get on a bus, you’ll tend to get a fairly good proportion of diversity about who lives and works in the city. And that is not necessarily replicated within this profession and certainly not at the higher higher and mid level ⁓ mid leadership levels of of of of the profession. And and I

I think if you can get on a bus, you should be able to access anything that London has to offer, is is my own view. That’s where I sort of start. So that’s a really big thing for me. and and that’s why City Century, which is about essentially taking that student debt part away, matters to me. That’s why SwissQuif, which ⁓ funds the solicitus qualification for legal aid lawyers, allows people who are not earning much money, most of whom are first gen, most of whom are socially mobile. It allows them at least to not incur that burden in an order.

And then qualify and continue to deliver access to justice to the most vulner vulnerable members of society. So that’s really important to me. Pro the progress that still needs to be made. We have to acknowledge that this is an issue and acknowledge that that’s the reality. And then I think we’re getting quite good at bringing people in to some degree, but we’re not paying enough attention to making sure that those people feel like they’re part of something and making sure that the allocation of opportunity both to get into the sector but also the work.

the exposure, the client the client getting the the having your names on things that that needs to be really, really dealt with. And and and and I I w where I will call out is I will call out the bunch of ⁓ legal influences, the sorts of voices that we’re seeing on on legal, who, you know, I’m one of them, like to think. ⁓ we’re all a little bit odd. I would say most of us, William Peake aside, were probably not the most popular kids at school and we probably weren’t picked first for the sports team. We weren’t the equivalent of the homecoming

king and queen. ⁓ and yet we are creating space for those people who haven’t necessarily been part of the show to talk about it. And we’ve created our own clip. And I think that is an indication that there is a bunch of people for whom the current paradigm doesn’t really work so well, but who can perform really well if they have a paradigm that doesn’t. Here’s what I reckon. If if there is a one medium sized if there’s a there’s a medium sized firm out there who will get this right.

Who will create a business model that allows people to perform at their best, which will not be ho heavily, heavily profits driven, which will have values, ⁓ which will allow opportunity, which will sing about its people, that firm will become massive. ⁓ and I don’t know who they are. I feel like it might be Lewis Silkin, ⁓ Osborne Clark, ⁓ other other law firms are available. someone’s gonna get that right, and that’s gonna make the difference. But the other D and I progress, just moving out of social mobility, is we know that black lawyers are not

progressing in in in in proportionate numbers up to partnership. ⁓ I think that has to do with business development connection, ⁓ work allocation opportunity. ⁓ we know that queer people tend to not make it to C suite. In my 40 odd years I I can think of maybe five or six managing partners who are LGBT ⁓ identified. That’s a really small number. and then I think also ⁓ having networks that are ⁓ agnostic as to who you are and

and just truly afford opportunity. I don’t think that exists as well. And then ⁓ the access to justice piece is shocking at the moment. There’s very little poor law out there. There’s very little that will help you. We know that AI will offer you something and you might think that that’s good enough, but it’s it looks to me like it’s a fifth of what you should be getting. Where I am pleased is is we’re hearing most of the right stuff right at the top level, a little bit less since US government changed ⁓ January of of of twenty twenty five.

But the people at the top seem to be saying the right stuff. The middle leadership, I think, is the issue where where where whether that actually happens, I’m not so sure. Again, thank you for being so so thorough and I loved your London bus analogy. I think it couldn’t be more spot on. And yes, you mentioned Lewis Silken, I would highlight people go and look at Rock Glowowski’s recent episode. We’ve had him who made partner following his career journey at Leeds Reed Smith and with Link Laters and also on Osborne Clark. Go and check out Leanne Wright, who’s a wonderful private equity partner.

Who has come onto the show as well, two wonderful firms and rightly so highlighted. I want to now talk about something positive, the apprenticeship revolution. And we’ve also had Holly Moore, who was the first to ⁓ get awarded a solicitor apprenticeship at ITV, come on the show and share her journey. But this route is really gaining momentum. So what impact do you think the apprenticeships are having on the profession from a positive perspective? And why should firms be embracing this pathway to qualification more? I’m really pleased that you mentioned Holly. ⁓ she is one of the people that particularly inspired

the work that we do, I I call out Amy Marin, ⁓ former of BPP and also Mayor Crockford, DAC Beechcroft, as you know, the the first three people I can think that really role modelled ⁓ in exceptional talent. and then of course Joanna Hughes, who with whom ⁓ with Joe Gubbie and I, we the three of us co CEO City Century. So just one minute on City Century. So we we’ve worked with over fifty firms, most of them in London, to bring in pr predominantly low S C B kids.

and fund them through the university and solicitor qualification route. They work four days, they study one day a week. ⁓ six years later they qualify as solicitors with a an LLB, ⁓ quite possibly a master’s and and the SQE as well. And we are finding ⁓ that we we recruit somewhere between 130 or more than 130 every year now. We we’re working with just over forty firms at the moment. ⁓ and what we are bringing in is I call them the Mozarts of their schools. We are bringing in the most talented kids ⁓

who are just exceptional. It’s just it just happens sometimes that i incredible people exist. George Hanner at Lewis Silken is is is but one ⁓ of the ones I would I would I would call out. There are just some people who are who are special. And what we are finding with that talent that comes in, ⁓ first of all, ⁓ they are it’s more difficult to get a City Century solicitor apprenticeship than it is to get a a a law place at Oxford and Cambridge. They have to be so talented to get the job that you have that talent coming in. They

then law firms can then find that they can mould those people, really work with them, make sure they rotate around. They become a really incredible resource. They are driven, they are grateful, they are pushy in the best sense, they are no respecters of hierarchy, and they just want to get the thing done. They want to work. They’re in and they want to work. And those communities are speaking to their younger brothers and sisters and more from those communities are coming in. Our our application numbers are coming in, our our standards are coming ⁓ up as well.

I think they are seismic. I think they are rewriting the junior lawyer contribution ⁓ completely. And ⁓ for example, we’re finding with the ⁓ hijabi community we’ve got a really strong word of mouth out. And you should see one hijabi woman helping another hijabi woman access this and you’re like, Wow, that that is sponsorship, that is ⁓ helping people up, that’s allyship and it’s incredibly strong. And and my my hope is that in a few years those

incoming numbers would be around fifty through traditional university, fifty through solicitor apprenticeship university. Here’s the I put to you. If it is that the knowing of the law, the doing of the law or that thing is becomes slightly less important because AI can do some of that for you, then you might need another skill set in addition or instead of. And I think that’s where you want driven, connected, networked, passionate, clever, ambitious people. And and I think solicitor apprenticeships can can bring a lot of that to you.

And you’re preaching to the choir here, we absolutely agree. And I think it’s it it it’s wonderful and there’s so many positives and it’s great that you mentioned George Hannah as well. He’s also been on the show following your very kind introduction actually, where we were all collaborating at an event at the Law Society last year. And Mayor Cropford indeed has been on the show. So folks, go and check out those episodes from those inspiring individuals. So let’s stick with the talent type side. fantastic. Yeah, we want all of the all of the hidden gems. Many firms still have concerns about attracting and retaining the next generation of legal talent.

So what do the younger and aspiring lawyers actually want from the employers today that perhaps the previous generations did not prioritize or were too scared to speak up about? Well we were definitely too scared to speak up about it. I think what we’re hearing is sort of ⁓ values, connection, purpose, ⁓ sense of growth, ⁓ and the ability to have some sort of other interests, some sort of life ⁓ alongside ⁓ your work. I

I think that might change if some of the employers start reducing their their pipeline numbers and the competition becomes harder because there are fewer jobs. Now, I’m really pleased to hear Paul Thwaite at Stevenson Harwood and Julian Taylor at Simmons and Simmons saying no, they’re not reducing their talent pipeline numbers. I really hope that that continues. You know, we we have a duty to bring in talent, etc. You can’t just not have talent at the at the beginning and then suddenly have it ⁓ at senior level. ⁓

But I think that might change in terms of what people are saying that they want. ⁓ but I think what I am hearing is that the ability to be able to challenge or change, having a flatter structure that allows you opportunity or at least a voice a little bit earlier. I would say it used to be back in my day that you would be prepared to forego things in order to get jammed tomorrow. So you’d say, I don’t need to have a life, I I will work hard, someone could be

psychologically abusive to me, ⁓ or whatever, because I know that by the time I’m 30, 35, I will make a partner. ⁓ that jam thing has moved, it’s become a l it’s later, ⁓ there’s possibly less of it, and it is less clear that you’re gonna make it. So I think what we’re hearing from the younger generations at the moment is we wanna see some of that stuff now. ⁓ we’re not really prepared to do the deal on the basis of of deferred ⁓ reward. So

I think that’s gonna be a thing. My sense is what the younger people, the juniors are gonna be saying now is I need you to while I’m with you, which probably won’t be that long, two, three years, you need to make me really, really portable in the market. You need to increase my skill set so that I can go to other places. We need to be really open and honest about that. Do not I’m not gonna pretend that I’m gonna be a partner with you, but I will work really hard for those two or three years. I think they’re gonna be saying, I need to have some time.

in my week, in my month, in my year, to dedicate to whatever I want to dedicate it to. I do want to be part of the conversation. and it is really important to me that I ni I retain my health in in the widest sense, which I completely agree with. From someone who opted out of being a lawyer, partly to have a less

demanding life in order to retain my health. I definitely lost that in the last five years of of my working career, of my full time career. And I would urge everyone to really constant you’ve only got one life, you’ve only got one body as far as I’m aware. ⁓ and and it’s really important that you look after that. And part of the body is of is of course the mind. So that’s what I think. And then I think choice. People just want a little bit more choice about what they do, where they do it, who they do it for, ⁓ on what terms. I liking things too, imagine you’ve only got one car for the rest of your life.

You know, you’re gonna get it serviced, you’re gonna make sure it’s MOT, you’re gonna make sure that you’re looking after it, so you get longevity out of it, you get performance out of it, is exactly how we should be treating.

⁓ ourselves and and thank you for sharing so many points as what as as well. And I’d encourage folks to check out check the episode with with Henry Nelson Case, who’s a wonderful advocate as well for, you know, mental health and well being and good things within the profession who also came from law and now giving back so much. we’ve joked throughout the conversation about Mr. Peak, William Peake, who’s also been on on the show, but I want to talk about leadership ’cause again, you and I were both at an event recently at the professional training and he was on stage and I really like what he was saying about leadership. ⁓

Leadership isn’t really about what you say, it’s about how you act. And so if you’re in a meeting and you’ve said certain things, you need to call that out. You need to be visibly seen to call things out, not just say things because that’s when you will lose and dilute trust. And he also said a great comment in terms of when he was interviewing people or people interviewing him, one of the best questions he was ever asked was, When was the time that you had lost trust in your employer and what did they do to win it back?

And he thought that was a great question to ask. I thought that’s just a great example of leadership and his EQ and his intelligence and how he’s leading a law firm and how he cares for people. So for you, you’ve worked closely with many law firm leaders throughout your career. I appreciate you would have seen a high range, but what separates truly effective leaders from those who simply hold leadership positions? Yeah, and just before I move into that, and I mean no offense to anyone, I still think you you can be really successful financially without necessarily being brilliant, I would say. This is a

This is an industry that is at least the commercial bit that is naturally profitable. I I usually talk about diamond miners. You go down the mine and what you bring out has a value in the market and you can sell it. But do not confuse that, the value of what you produce with your own innate brilliance. So ⁓ th there are a number of people, probably me included, who are fine and we are successful because the thing is successful rather than because we’re naturally brilliant. But that but I can I can think of I can think of five before I get to William Peake that I regard as being ⁓

really special leaders ⁓ and and different reasons for each of them. So I’m going to try and build a little bit of composite. So Justin Dagasino, lower managing partner of Herbert Smith Freehills, what he does is he creates excitement. He essentially puts on a show and he makes you feel like you are part of that show. He’s a bit like ⁓ the the character what’s the ⁓ I am me, the circus thing, not Barnum, but you know what I mean? with Hugh Jackman. ⁓ he’s that person. He brings people together.

The greater showman type type thing. He is the greatest showman, right? In in law, I don’t think there’s anyone that can come anywhere close to him for that. ⁓ and you know, now they’ve pulled off this amazing transatlantic merger, which loads of firms have been trying to and and he do he does it, right? ‘Cause that’s just him. So so it’s that excitement. And I worked there for for six years very, very happily. and you know, he was part of the reason. Then I will ⁓ I call out Gideon Moore, who was a former managing partner ⁓ at Link Laters, and ⁓ we overlapped by about three or four years and

What I loved about Gideon, and we didn’t always see eye to eye, but he listened. ⁓ and he might not go the way that you wanted him to, but he would at least listen. And he would ask, he would ask you your opinion, like, my god, someone’s asking me my opinion. ⁓ amazing. So ⁓ just making you feel like you’ve been listened to ⁓ was important. Neville Eisenberg at BLP, ⁓ he was managing partner there for yeah, probably twenty years. ⁓ he was steely. ⁓ he would say, he would explain it to you, but he would say, This is the way we’re going.

⁓ and this is why. ⁓ and then he would say, saw him say this at a partners conference, and he said, And you either get on the bus or you don’t. But do not stand in front of the bus ’cause the bus is going. So either you’re on or you’re off. Do not stand in front of it because the bus is coming over you. And it was very it sounds it sounds a bit maniacal and a bit violent, but I don’t think that’s what he meant. But he was like, This is where we’re going, you’re either in or you’re out. And and that was really clear and and true. And some people stepped off, some people came on and and it worked really well.

⁓ I will call out Joe Farmer with whom I’m slightly obsessed at Lewis Silkin. ⁓ who ⁓ her leadership quality is to be really, really o honest and her journey is really long, like where she’s come from or where she’s gone to. And she is very reassuring. She goes, I just I’m just thinking about the next thing. I I’ve got two more. Yotunde Dania, ⁓ office managing partner, Birmingham, Trous and Hamlin. she has an ability to connect with people. I have

Very rarely seen. She tells her story, she looks at you, she spends time with you. In that moment, you feel like you are the most special person in the world and anything can happen. I would swim oceans to work with you today, I have to say. and then someone who I really love, ⁓ as a friend. We’re not necessarily that close, we don’t see each other that that often, and we didn’t really work that close together, is Sam Brown. ⁓ and Sam Brown is a really kind but firm ⁓ leader, ⁓ Herbert Smith Three Hills ⁓ former

UK ⁓ managing partner and she was very open about when she had of her mental health ⁓ experiences and so I call her and then of course we have to go to William Peak don’t we? Because we have to yeah you can’t have a podcast without William and he does two things I think ⁓ he definitely does the honesty bit and the calling people to camp but he has star power. There is there’s something about the way he looks, about how he presents.

about the words that he used, about his communication, about the the rooms in which he inserts himself that just go, that’s a star, right? If you were casting for a show where you needed the best, most engaging managing partner, you would cast William. He has star power. I don’t and I think it’s a combination of those things of what he does. ⁓ so those are th that’s my composite.

Cracking examples. Thank you. And I’m sure everyone will be rushing to LinkedIn and trying to connect. And and of course, I think with William obviously his stand-up career, stand-up comedy may have helped him a little bit as well. But just sort of summarizing there what I take from that and things that we like talk a lot about on the show. Firstly, kindness matters in leadership. Being present, having that presence and genuinely caring, being seen, heard and valued.

And also not being afraid to be clear and be you know, it’s better to be clear than it is to be clever sometimes. Like you say, if you’re clear with people, you give themselves the choice to whether do you want to be on the bus or not on the bus and explain why you’re doing it. And we’re no longer in this sort of B to B, B to C world and to the point about connection. We’re in this H to H. It’s human to human connection people are craving. And people who understand that and connect with people will be seriously strong leaders. And being refreshingly open and honest with people and giving them that reassurance.

insurance and also the excitement why to come to work. So absolutely love that. Masterclass. I’m gonna go rewind it and listen to it again and I’d encourage all our listeners too as well because it’s important because these are the leaders that are shaping the future of the profession. Well can I say just before you go on to the next bit, I’m really impressed with how we’re running this podcast, right? You’re really properly listening and you’re summarizing and then you’re adding to it. I’m really ⁓ listening is not one of my skill sets and ⁓ I’m really impressed.

Really, really. Thank you. I’m thoroughly engaged and engrossed and it’s taken us a long time to make this work and we wanted to promise to give a good interview and I’m genuinely honored to have you on the show and enjoying the conversation. There’s more for us to get through, so let let’s stick at it. Let’s go to diversity inclusion ’cause I know it’s something that we’re we’re all very passionate about. And you’ve been a very strong advocate for inclusion and worked on various projects supporting lots of underrepresented groups within the profession. What progress have you seen? Start on the good stuff.

And where do you think we still need to do a lot more work? Right. So I think we we’re close to more or less ish having cracked or at least started to crack social mobility recruitment. ⁓ as long as we keep going and do more of it. ⁓ there are more visibly queer people ⁓ in the industry, so that’s good and we do to some degree ⁓ see women ⁓ progressing. But the model itself fundamentally has to change ⁓ in order to really see

progression including from people who might have other commitments in their life or other challenges. The model currently, at least in the city, is ⁓ eighty hours a week, six, seven days, fifty weeks a year, ⁓ do that for 40 years, ⁓ finish. that model does not accommodate the realities of of of people’s physio physiology, people’s ⁓ anatomy, people’s psychology. It doesn’t.

So not much will change if that doesn’t change. What does need to change apart from the model, ⁓ we have to give much more support to ⁓ allowing non white, non heterosexual, non public school people to build networks that that create work. we have to properly do that and we have to come away from the rugby and the cricket and the opera ⁓ and the didn’t we go to the same school thing? So shout out to, you know, Sophie Pender at ninety three percent club who is, you know, doing lots to bring people in ⁓ to

professional industries including law and then just because it’s become really apparent to me since I was diagnosed a couple of years ago there’s a lot that I think we need to know more about ⁓ and and and thank thank God for JJ Thompson for Richard Fisk and and to James Snyder ⁓ Freshfields for their work with the Legal Diversity Network. We we need to do a lot more. Let’s be honest th the legal sector is full of neurodiverse people.

ac across all elements of the spectrum, right? And the profitability of commercial has depended on those people. But it absolutely does, right? Great, you can work to a hundred and twenty hours a week. Great, lovely, fabulous. Lot in a room. ⁓ here’s his data room. Go for it. there’s more to harness but also to protect ⁓ people in the in that field. And then I think there’s a there’s a piece for me around ⁓ how we God it’s all sounds so selfish. It sounds like it’s just about me.

There’s a piece around how we allow people to exit the industry and and whether we’re getting that legacy piece right, whether we’re allowing people to leave their mark on on the sector as they wish, whether their knowledge is being passed down, whether their values are being shared with others, etc. ⁓ and and sorry, and the last thing, ⁓ we just need to be less critical and less he says criticizing everything, and less cynical about if if there’s if there’s one mindset I would like us to change, it’s the bit where we bitch about

Everybody and we think we’re better than everybody else. That that would transform things. Today’s episode is brought to you by Cleo. If you’re spending more time managing your practice than practicing law, it’s time for a change. Cleo is the intelligent legal work platform built for modern solicitors, combining context-aware AI with trusted legal research to help you work smarter, not harder. Switching is easier than you might think.

Clio’s dedicated migrations teams handled your client and case data every step of the way so you can focus on what matters most. Your clients. Plus award-winning support 24-5 via live chat, phone, and email. It means help is always on hand when you need it. Visit Cleo.com forward slash UK to find out why thousands of UK solicitors trust Cleo. Now back to the show.

context and empathy is really important and the legacy thing is is really what gets us out of bed and myself out of the bed. You my late grandfather ran a successful law firm in his own right, you know, man and boy came from a very working class family background. Always used to say to me, Laddie, live live respected, die regretted. And it’s something that I really, really resonate with. And I think to your point around some of the other issues you’re you’re mentioning there, I think COVID really changed the landscape. We went through a pandemic

Not many generations before us had experienced that. I think that really made people think about what they want from their lives more so than ever, if you think we’ve we’ve gone through that. And then Bol Tom now, which we’ve touched on, which we haven’t really leveraged completely, is AI. This isn’t once in a generation piece of technology. We’ve had Dragon’s Den investors like Piers Linney, former lawyers come on the show. He said, Bob, this is once in a species revolution of the

velocity of what this could be and you think of the anxiety and the impact and things that might happen. And so, you know, we have to have empathy, I think, is so important and moving forward. And sticking with leadership, we touched on it, but I want to come to go to sort of the the the wider work that you’ve been doing and your thoughts, because you’ve spoken very openly about the importance of visible leadership and representation. So why does representation at senior levels matter? And what advice would you give to aspiring leaders from underrepresented backgrounds?

Just coming back on COVID and AI, we all need shitloads of therapy, don’t we? we’re not worried about that. Yeah. None of us have processed. Yeah. And and so and and to actually, you know, that is a good thing, you know, let’s be positive about none of us have processed it. I I think there’s a I think there’s a tsunami of trouble coming our way. Anyway, let’s leave that aside. And it’s really difficult to talk about why legal representation is important without doing a bunch of clichés. But essentially here’s what think. I think it it gives hope. ⁓

⁓ because if they see someone I I was just talking to a senior partner from a law firm and ⁓ and he said to me, The fact that you have this role, Patrick, as a I think we just I think I might have used the phrase annoyingly visible queer. the fact that you and our industry have this role in itself ⁓ is of worth. So that’s that’s quite interesting, isn’t it? And th that is another reason why I took the role because I thought it’s really important that younger queer people can see an older queer person essentially doing well.

So there’s the hope thing. I think it also just challenges the system. Seeing a black person over here, an Asian person over here, a person with disabilities over here, a social mobility socially mobile person, et cetera, et cetera. ⁓ having James Smyder talk about, you know, autism and what have you, that challenges the system. It goes, We’re here, we exist. So I think that’s important. Let me tell you this story. ⁓ so I started doing my nails ⁓ I don’t know, three or four years ago. and I was at Link Lators doing something and there was a reception thing and there was a

⁓ there was a bunch of a get to know you day for like maybe first year North Students and one of them came up to me, ⁓ you know, split from the group came up to me and said to me, I like your nails, and I said, thanks. ⁓ and he said, ⁓ that makes me think that I can be welcome here. I just I only came, I just thought I wouldn’t be. I’m a black gay man from Manchester. ⁓ I just thought

I could and I was like, my god, are you kidding? Come to Lincoln, it’s full of it, loads of us. Come over here, right? It’s central. but you know, being able to do that is is ⁓ I think important and it creates that connection. I have had so many conversations with people that wouldn’t otherwise know me because of the way I’m role modelled. And and when I see senior people role model, the response that they get, let me tell you this example Paulette Mastin, ⁓ Reed Smith, sorry, Paulette Mastin, C B E.

Did a speech City Century event that we did at the the O two. ⁓ there were about fourteen hundred kids there. she was the last speech, she did a brilliant keynote speech. She was about to go home. ⁓ go back to work, and I’ve said, No, no. You sit here, and I said, sit on the sofa on stage, and I said, Watch this. And I said, if anybody wants to have their picture taken, this is a bunch of year twelves, year thirteens, if anybody wants to have their picture taken with Paulette, please form a queue. An hour later.

She was still getting her picture taken. And and what I saw is for those kids, they were like, it could be me. But almost more importantly, what I saw was Paulette realizing that she had made it, right? That this is something that she had made. She was that person. She was that success story. And she was sort of owning it herself, which I don’t think she had done until that point. And that’s the sort of stuff that if you’re visibly as a a ⁓

You’re a visible role model, I think, makes a real difference. Sorry, I’m I get a bit emotional about stuff like that, but I have seen No, but it’s the passion. The passion I can hear in your voice coming through and I think, you the one thing I respect is, you know, we always talk about ABA on the show, always be authentic. And to your point about, you know, to to to s

To to believe it, you have to see it. And seeing these people in these you know, respective roles to the point that you said that the fact that you were in the role I think is fantastic. And, you know, I’d like to shout out Trevor Sterling and the work that he’s doing with the Be the Ladder Awards. ⁓ you know, he’s he’s very much, you know, if you can’t see the ladder, be the ladder. Drop it down, help others climb up. And I think these are the types of voices and conversations we want to be having on the show, absolutely. Let’s talk about the future of legal education now.

⁓ slightly controversial because the introduction of the SQE has fundamentally changed the route to qualification. How do you think legal education and training will continue to evolve over the coming years? I think number one, ⁓ I’m really pleased to see the change of leadership at the Solicitor’s Regulatory Authority, Sarah Rhapson, ⁓ Aileen Armstrong, but also Beth Black, who’s been brought in to look at the SQE and

So I think we now have a regulator that actually is listening and wants to work with us. I’m seeing great stuff come out of law firms, out of ⁓ SQEs and from the law schools about, you know, these are the areas that we should improve in in relation to the SQE in order to make it work. I don’t think it’s ever gonna be an exam that guarantees ⁓ success in the workplace. I I don’t think e there is any exam that does that. And I was not a fan

Not sure I am a fan, but it has allowed different people to come in. So my Swiss Quiffers, 152 of those now underway, 52 have qualified who’ve come through paralegal routes that wouldn’t otherwise ⁓ have qualified. The solicitor apprenticeship route would not have existed, three or four hundred coming through that in a couple of years it’ll be two or three years that’ll be a thousand people that have come through that route through you know city century firms. So that opens the whole the whole thing out. And I think we will get better at knowing what we need to do to pass the SQE. ⁓ which I think

means that pass rates for those who access suitable support in terms of costs, etc., will go up. ⁓ so it will become a thing that people will pass up.

I’ve always said I want the SQB to be hard but not harrowing and if we can get that right, that’s a thing. So so I think that that will change for the better. ⁓ and and some of the things that were a problem I think you know we we have already to some degree sorted. But in relation to legal education training more ⁓ more likely. I I think we will get more people coming in through

non traditional routes successfully so I think we will hopefully get more career changes. I think there will be a return to some mandatory completion. I think in the age of hybrid and online and do it as you wish and we’re not really following you and you don’t have to sign a register. I think that will change. I think that will become a risk issue and a and a performance standard issue for a bunch of employers. So I think we will we will have people coming back to some sort of mandatory you have to do it in order that we know you have. And I would hope that that might include some light testing as well.

So it’s not just I’ve been there, but some testing. ⁓ I think ethics will come, that’s gonna be on there. I don’t think the answer is you need to have done a course when you’re in NQ.

I think there will be something more involved, which will involve reflection. It will involve some sort of frequency and it will involve some sort of reporting ⁓ structure back into the regulator or at least or employer. And then I think with AI, we definitely need to learn how to use it. We need to teach upwards to the more seniors how to do it. And then we need to somehow learn the stuff that we used to learn when we were doing the work that AI does. I don’t know what the answer to that is. Whoever does that will become a very, very rich person. And then I think

There will be a piece about how you work with people in a way that works across generations, including juniors upwards and and seniors downwards. There’s a there’s a real communication disconnect I think happening ⁓ more and more. And we know when people don’t understand and don’t connect each other, things go wrong. And I think that will become a thing, I think, for for a number of your

A massive thing. And I think, you know, I’d like to shout out ⁓ Wendy Jepson at Let’s Think because I think they’re doing a great job of trying to capture that cognitive learning and that sort of great wisdom and expertise, particularly in the AI world, to re engineer and reteach and learn ⁓ people coming through the profession because it’s absolutely needed. And I love that you talk to ethics. We’ve had I Stephanie Boyce, good friend of mine, come on the show multiple times and it’s something she talks up about in great detail and is a great voice to be following, particularly on that topic and

More broadly, I think also, you know, organizations like NRG Lawyers, where I sit on the charity of Akeel Hunt and the work they’re doing, actually challenging law firms in terms of, you know, it shouldn’t just be recruited in this dynamic. Actually, we are s we’re losing so much great talent and we should be opening the doors and holding these law firms accountable. So absolutely agree. And I love that you highlighted the SRA as well, because you know, we is greater than me, isn’t it? The more we can collaborate, work together, and actually drive in the same direction and feel people are listening to us to achieve greater things, far, far better. Okay, let’s get into

1. We’ve kind of skirted around it, touched on it a little bit, but I want to get your thoughts. And I know you very openly said you sort of you know it came in a little bit late at the late l later part of your career, but you’re absolutely at the coalface in terms of helping shape people’s future careers. So continuing to dominate the conversation, how do you see AI changing the way lawyers will work, learn and develop their careers? Yeah, look, one reason I was pleased to leave Link Laters was that I didn’t have to be in charge of the AI training programme. I just thought that’s just too big a thing, right? I I will retire. I will I watch

Antiques Roadshow. Other shows are available. Rather than having to take on that piece of work. So no one knows, right? But ⁓ we have to master how to use the product and then how to do the stuff that the product can’t do and market that intelligently. We seem to be saying that’s all about judgment and that’s all about empathy and that’s connection. Whisper it, I think AI can already do that better than most humans. ⁓

And we are fooling ourselves if we think we’re going to be paid two thousand pounds an hour because we can have a whole load of data and say, I think you should go this way. I think I think AI can do a lot of that. ⁓ I think we have to move much more into business and ⁓ operations and strategy away from legal. I think though it won’t be long before we have lawyers who don’t actually do law, I think. ⁓ and we have to learn how to learn the stuff that we’re not learning because we’re not

we’re not learning it through doing informal working. And then the big thing for me is we have to it feels like you’re on a on a slightly dodgy surfboard in a really choppy ocean and it’s just coming everywhere and there’s hell and there’s sleep and there’s tidal wave and then it goes really quiet and then there’s a whole thing going over here. Coping with that massive uncertainty, coping with that, I think is the biggest thing, just the constant constant change. Let me tell you this story. Just in terms of speed and stuff. When I was a junior, ⁓

you could you’d ring up the junior on the other side and you would agree that you would send your letters to each other by second class post, which would take an extra day. So you’d get the letter on the Monday, you’d send your reply on the Tuesday, they would get it on the Thursday, they they would reply on the Friday, it would take two or three days, it would come to you on Tuesday. So you’d have a week, right, between letters. so ⁓ there is a whole different way of working that that and so that was stressful but karmish. Coping with all of that I think is is is a big thing.

ma a massive thing. And I think to the point about you mentioned about the two thousand pounds and, you know, I think law firms have to be really conscious of of that as well. And I think one of my favorite quotes I’ve heard is very simply by obviously Richard Suskin. He says, The market will show no loyalty. I think that’s so true. You know, in terms of the AI revolution, the tech revolution that we’re going through

You know, y you’ll be fooled to think that clients are still going to be prepared to pay that, ⁓ given, like you said, we said softly, that some of the things that, you know, empathy and those various things that have been quoted AI can’t do, it’s only going to get exponentially better. One of the interesting shows that we’ve done recently, which was really ⁓ well regarded and it leads nicely on to human skills, what I want to talk about next, was David Pope, who is a voice coach for lawyers specifically. So as the tech is advancing, Patrick, what human skills do you think will become

even more essential in a lawyer’s toolkit. You know, are there particular skills or competencies future lawyers should be looking into to develop further? Yeah, there’s definitely a bit about how do you relate to people in a in a way that works for them. And I think that includes, you know, telling and sharing stories and listening and adapting. That ability to connect on a human level, I think will still be important. I don’t know if that

what the value of that will be compared to I can get it for free or for cheaper from from AI. But I can think of someone like ⁓ Charlie Moore, who’s a solicitor apprentice at DWF, and she writes quite openly what she’s twenty three, twenty two, twenty three. She writes quite openly about her life, ⁓ and who she is and what matters and ⁓ she writes in a way that sort of goes, There’s gotta be a better way and this is what we should be doing. and I think I find that quite intoxicating, right? ⁓ adaptability, as I’ve mentioned, ⁓

calmness, the ability to just stay steady while while everyone around you is losing their ⁓ their heads. And then here’s here’s here’s I think my big thing. ⁓ the ability to emulate what a composite of successful people are doing, pulling this bit from here, this bit from here, this bit from here, and somehow emulating that. We we all can point to ten great people ⁓ for different reasons and it’s then trying to pull those pieces together. I think that

That ability to sort of bring yourself up, I think is a is a is a big piece for me. And then just the office basics as well, which I think we’ve lost, you know, the timekeeping, the updating of your of your boss, the ability to answer the phone, the ability to tell your boss where you’ve got to, ⁓ all of that stuff. I think we’ve we’ve rushed a bit too quickly to go on the computer can do it. And so I think that’s a really big piece. Just working out what what is important for the other people that

With whom you work and and how you can begin to deliver that. Yeah. And can comes to communication, doesn’t it? Being disciplined. And I love that you’re talking about picking from different pieces. I talk very openly about people should have a three sixty board of mentors around them, people that are ahead of them, people beneath them, to the side of them, wherever it may be, and using all of those skills. Yeah. Absolutely. Very, very important. Yeah. And definitely storytelling. We all know facts tell, but it’s the stories that are gonna sell and really connect people and bring people in and along that journey. Okay, so now Patrick, you’re building the law firm of the future.

Switched roles. So if you were designing a law firm from scratch, twenty twenty six, what would it look like? What would you keep from the traditional law firm models, if anything, and what would you change? Well, I’m really pleased that I’m at this stage of my career, so I don’t have to do that if for real. So Yeah, you can you can shoot your shot whichever way you want to go. I’m gonna try and just do this short. ⁓ I I think if you d get the law firm right, you should be uncomfortable within it.

By which I mean you should have surrounded yourself with a structure and a network and ⁓ a way of working and a team that are not like you, that that don’t think exactly the way that you do and who annoy you sometimes and who get things wrong and also get things right and you might get things wrong. I think you’ve got to be really uncomfortable in in your law firm, because that’s where change and improvement comes from. And and so, you know, I’m always saying if you’re recruiting, try and recruit someone who’s sort of

vaguely irritates you a bit. If you don’t know what it is about them, there’s something that isn’t you’re not used to. Yeah. Yeah. There’s an inf unfamiliarity. In terms of stuff that I think we’ve got to keep, ⁓ so I would definitely call out I really want to keep up that upstanding bit. You know, law wi is about something. I’m not saying we all have to turn into Atticus Finch and to kill a to kill a mockingbird, but there has to be something like that, doesn’t there? You know, like lawyers in drama shows. Some of them are really decent. So I want to keep that.

⁓ I want to keep the discipline that we have, the diligence that we have. I want us to still be able to think forward a little bit. ⁓ I think the staple work that we do, some of that’s gonna stay, right? We still advise, we still represent, we still advocate. ⁓ and we’ve got to keep our intelligence. We’ve got to keep as clever as we are. That’s what that’s what we are. We’re brains, right? We’re walking brains. That’s got to be kept. The stuff I think we we like to lose ⁓ is rigidity. ⁓ I’ve mentioned

circumspection, cynicism, overworking. I think we’ve just got to we’ve just got to lose that. It’s just not we we we need not to be working people eighty hours a week. hierarchy and ⁓ cliques but by cliques I mean cliques that you can access because you have had access to money in order to get the experiences and the connections that allow you to be with those people. I want to get rid of all of that. So ⁓

You know, I I did do Latin at school, as it turns out, ’cause I was a a good comprehensive, but ⁓ you know, using Latin phrases or or classical music or or talking about where you where do you ski or you know, which is your favourite part of Tuscany, that sort of stuff I think doesn’t help. Th those sorts of clips don’t really.

Yeah. And a again to the point around ⁓ burning people out and working those hours, you know, if we’re working through these revolutionary technology changes and getting these efficiencies, let’s pass them on to our people. Exactly. So they don’t miss that wedding. Maybe they don’t miss bedtime f five weeks out of the seven, you know, five days out of the seven of the week. They can be there more than just the weekends and actually people get the life with the career and get the right balance. And

Absolutely on the comfort zone piece. You know, comfort zone’s great, but we all know nothing actually grows there. Could not agree more. And ultimately, you know, this is a really important topic around us continuously being open to learning and being curious and sharpening our axes, because that is what clients are ultimately going to be paying for. So absolutely thoroughly agree. Really enjoyed that. Okay, I want to talk about collaboration now. I’ll say it all the time. My listeners will be sick and tired of me saying it, but collaboration is domination. I try and do as many facets as possible across the show and the community that I’m building. I think it’s so, so powerful.

One of your strength, Patrick, bringing firms together to solve shared challenges. So why is collaboration becoming increasingly important in the profession, traditionally known more for competition? Yeah, thanks. ⁓ I think this is coming it’s sorry, just to get psychological a bit. Not sure I was that popular a kid. ⁓ and I to in order to make that kid’s life a bit better, I’ve seem have got myself into lots of group situations. so I have for whatever reason I I

I’ve done a lot of collaboration. So I can think of Swiss Quift, Diverse, City, which I set up, the Queer City Law Career, C L S training committee, which I chaired for five years and sat on for fifteen, City Century, you know, now I’m the the CLS as well. and so I’m I’m about collaboration is so much more fun than than than competition. I’m I’m not a particularly aggressive y type person, I like to think. I don’t really want to beat the other side. I I want to beat the system and I want to ⁓ beat the odds, but I’m I’m not really into making the side

worse. And when everything that I found when I’ve done that is people really respond really well to that. You do have to have one or two people at the middle who have the vision and do all the work, let’s be honest. I’ve never found spreading the work equally actually works. There’s always some one that’s not doing it. ⁓ but I I think that’s the key for the greater good to making stuff forward. And and I I like to think that people do actually want to work together. I I don’t know whether that’s what our politicians at the moment

here and around the world and particularly across the Atlantic are about. I I very much hope that that that all goes away come the next set of elections. ⁓ but I think we should be about just generally being together and going, what can we do and let’s let’s make that happen. Yep, couldn’t agree more. We is absolutely greater than me. I’ll keep saying that until I’m on my deathbed. Okay, let’s get to the current Chief Executive, what are your priorities of the city

of London Law Society over the next few years, whilst we’ve still got ya. Yeah. So so my main thing is our our new newly settled strategy at the over the overriding thing is to elevate and amplify, by which that means, you know, we wanted to be doing more important work. We want to be in rooms where we’re we’re maybe not and we want to be doing stuff that’s more significant, ⁓ as a whole, as city law, and we want to really amplify that and and and talk about that ⁓ as well. And and so we have four hours underneath that. We want to rally resource, we want to ⁓

robustify representation, we want to reinforce our reputation and then we want to radiate responsibility. And so I think what that means is that I think what we’ve agreed is that we will try and lead us to a better place. Definitely where one where all of our firms are making you know really significant, possibly obscene amounts of money and profits, but we also want to improve stuff. We want to do that in a way that’s respected, around the world, that attracts clients, that attracts ⁓ other ⁓ people to come and work with us, that but also that gives back

to society in in the bigger sense, but also back into the sector. And and what we have to do, you know, in a competitive world is is just make it very clear around the globe, around the world, that London is where you do law. You just you do it in London, right? It’s better, it’s more secure, you’ve got better minds there, it works at a pace, it absolutely adapts to what you need, ⁓ and you you get to do what you want to do, but you do that in a way that, you know, you can

sort of sleep at night. I have a theory that in theory the only person that you have to sleep with every night of your life is your is yourself. You want to be sleeping with someone who respects you. so I think that’s that’s what I want us to be. Just going, yeah, done done a great job. Brilliant work. Clients are really happy, made lots of money, did it in a good way. I love that. I remember when someone said to me before, ⁓ Rob, do you know who you need to be kindest to? I was like, yeah, thinking family

No yourself. And absolutely. You know, it’s it’s so so true. ⁓ okay, before we we let you go, Patrick, a couple of quick fire well, not quick fire questions, a couple of questions I want to ask. Firstly, around the future proofing of the profession. You know, I’ve been running now for the last three years the the great big legal off site. We’ve had some incredible speakers, Darn and Dennis Smith, OBE incoming, ⁓ President Law Society and various other people speak there, and it’s all around future proofing law firms and trying to really help educate

The legal profession on where it’s going. So if you are advising managing partners and indeed on the in house side, general counsel or legal leaders, what are the three biggest areas they should be focusing on to ensure long term success? Yeah, I think you’ll like number two. number one is you should focus on your people in delivering a proposition that actually works. side note ⁓ it is not delivering massive profits. ⁓ that is not the answer. ⁓ for most of your people. ⁓ second is collaborate before compete. And I would say actually just collaborate, don’t compete.

And then ⁓ the third is the core of what we do, ⁓ you know, that that will change, of course it will, ⁓ but we have to know that, recognise it and work with it and not lose it completely. You know I speak to someone saying, you know, I don’t want the CLS to be just representing the equivalent of very overpaid estate agents. It has to be more than that, and I think that’s what our firms want as well. So that’s what I would say.

Great points. And I would encourage people to go way back into our archives. We’ve done over five hundred episodes and listen to Jessica Hampson, who’s one ⁓ law personality of the year many times over, but runs C E L solicitors and she has been from day one people before profits. And her law firm has never been so well regarded. The amount of accolades, the growth, the happiness, even their culture in the law firm and the office space and the say that people have on the space and things that matter to them. So go and listen to Jessica, follow her on LinkedIn, wonderful leader.

really, really, really stands in light with a lot of the things that you just said there in terms of not just thinking about the profit pure equity partner and pure profit. Okay, final piece of advice. What’s this legal personality of the year award about which I know nothing? Excuse me. Excuse me. Is someone gonna add the one from the side? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, for sure, for sure. Okay, this has been an absolute masterclass as we knew it was going to be. Final piece of advice, Patrick, if you had to complete this sentence, how would you finish it?

The legal profession of the future will be shaped not by the organizations that resist change, but those that kick the heck out of it so that the change itself says what the feck just happened. There we go. Love it. All right. If our listeners or indeed watchers, which I’m sure they will, want to follow you, learn more about the work, all the great stuff you’re getting up to, where can they go? Feel free to share any websites, any social media handles, resources. We’ll also include them in this very special episode for you too. Now I’m I’m not Henry Nelson case, right, so I’m not across all the socials.

Apologies. you can find me most safely on LinkedIn and I’m Patrick McCann, I’m wearing a red jumper. ⁓ McCann is C C ⁓ A N N. ⁓ but just be warned, I do post quite a lot. I think I post I think I like the stuff I post, but you can definitely mute me ⁓ once it gets too much.

We will not encourage people to mute you. I think what you’re doing is fantastic, your content’s brilliant, and this conversation has been brilliant. So it leads me to say thank you so much, Patrick. I’m so pleased we finally had you get you on the show. So from all of us here on the League’s Beam Podcast, sponsored by Cleo, wishing you lots of continued success with your career. Hopefully we’ve got many more years left of you in and around the league profession yet. but for now, from all of us, over and out. Thank you for listening to this week’s episode. If you like the content here, why not check out our world leading content and collaboration hub?

The Legally Speaking Club over on Discord. Go to our website, www.legallyspeakingpodcast.com. There’s a link to join our community there. Over and out.