On today’s Legally Speaking Podcast, I am delighted to be joined by Madeleine Weber. Madeleine is Senior Counsel, EMEA at Sitetracker. She has had an unconventional route into the legal profession, studying-CILEx, New York Bar, QLTS and SQE2. Madeleine also runs inhousew, an education platform helping aspiring solicitors prepare for SQE2 through different resources. She is committed to supporting the next generation of solicitors, having helped 2,000 students over the past 3 years.

So why should you be listening in? 

You can hear Rob and Madeleine discussing:

– Non-Traditional Route to Qualifying as a Solicitor

– Building a Successful In-House Legal Career

– Overcoming Qualification Challenges with Resilience

– Making SQE Preparation More Accessible for Students

– Supporting the Next Generation of Solicitors.

Connect with Madeleine Weber here – https://uk.linkedin.com/in/madeleine-weber-0261aba2

Transcript

This whole process is there to prepay. My core driver is to not force students to buy everything but just students only get what they need. I’m very conscious of what students are dealing with and I try to help as much as possible. When I was working in-house, if there had been SQE, my life would have been significantly easier and I would have just gone ahead with that.

So I think that’s been good that other legal roles are finally being recognized as being a place where you can qualify. On today’s legally speaking podcast, I’m delighted to be joined by Madeline Weber. Madeline is a senior counsellor across Amir at Sight Tracker. She has an unconventional route into the legal profession, studying Silex, New York Bar, QLTS, and the SQE2. Madeline also runs In House W, an education platform helping aspiring solicitors prepare for SQE2.

through different resources. She is committed to supporting the next generation of solicitors, having helped over 2,000 over the past few years. So a very big warm welcome to the show, Madeline. Hi Rob. Thanks so much for having me. it’s an absolute pleasure to have you on the Legally Speaking podcast. And before we dive into all the amazing things you’re doing in and around the legal community, we do have a couple of customary icebreaker questions here on the League Speaking Podcast, which is what is your favorite beverage and what is your preferred choice of footwear on a typical workday?

good question. I think my favourite beverage is it’s probably quite basic. I love Fanta. I could drink Fanta every day, all day. And footwear, I’m not gonna lie, I wear sketches ⁓ all day, every day, pretty much. ⁓ I go through so many pairs because that’s all I walk in and they’re just so comfortable.

There we go. Sketches and Fanta. And with that, we can move swiftly on to talk all about you. So to begin with, Madeline, would you mind telling our listeners just a little bit about your background and career journey? I did an L B law degree ⁓ quite a few years ago now, and wanted to qualify as a solicitor, but ⁓ I think as many people find, it is quite a struggle.

So when I sort of joined the workforce after graduating, the SQE hadn’t been introduced yet. ⁓ it was still the sort of ⁓ traditional route of doing an LPC and training contract. I really struggled finding a training contract and ⁓ by sheer coincidence, I ended up working in-house and ended up working for a software company and managed to qualify through a sort of very

weird way which we can talk about as well later on and ⁓ I’ve been in in software ever since. I am now a senior counsel responsible for all of Europe, Middle East and Africa of a US SaaS company. And on the side as well ⁓ I run a business, ⁓ an educational business that helps people prepare for one of the two SQE exams, namely the SQ2.

which is an exam I sat as well in order to qualify. So yeah, that’s I would say is a a quick summary. A very quick summary, very impressive. And you know, your tenacity, your resilience, and your willingness to give back certainly impressed all of us on the show. And why we’re super keen to have you on today. So congratulations. But let’s pick off from where you are currently then as senior counselor crossing. What does a typical day look like? Tell us a bit more about what your role involves.

Yeah, of course. So we’re a small legal team. There’s only three of us. So I look after Oliver Mia. A typical day, I mean, this is gonna sound like such a cliche answer, but there isn’t really a typical day. I deal with anything and everything legal ⁓ in my region. ⁓ the majority of that work I would say is contract work because we are a software supplier. So putting in place contracts for the sale of our software is is my bread and butter. So ⁓ in a sort of

you know, more common day, I will likely review a customer markup of our subscription agreement, I will review data processing agreements, ⁓ I will often have to deal with a lot of NDAs, which we need before we, for example, demo our solution. But I also deal with random employment matters. Like I often get sort of random employment questions because we have a number of entities in EMEA and sometimes

HR team will ask, can we do this in Spain? Can we do this in Germany? What are sort of the employment regulations around that? I also deal a lot with policies, putting in place policies for the company to make sure we’re compliant. So I would say a majority of my work is it’s a lot of drafting, a lot of reviewing of drafting, and of course, ⁓ as I think with lots of companies, there’s a lot of calls as well, just sort of aligning internally.

But often as well, negotiating with customers on on our subscription agreements, because often there’s points that need to be discussed before we find agreement. But yeah, that’s that’s roughly what I do. Yeah, fairly like you say, no two days the same, very, very different, but interesting nonetheless. What’s the best part of the job? What do you most enjoy? For me personally, I love the drafting aspect. I love when you’re negotiating a position, trying a way to find, you know, the the best sort of

way of expressing that that reflects sort of our you know our position but also the others you can get quite clever with it and I really enjoy like that sort of it’s almost like a puzzle like trying to find the right words to get what I want but also to get what the other side wants. I really enjoy that like to me it’s like a daily I don’t know like a almost like a crossword puzzle that I do ⁓ just in the form of a contract but yeah no I really enjoy that that’s my favourite bit about my job

Good for you. And I can hear that you, you know, the passion and the excitement and then what you do. And it’s very important, ’cause we love seeing people in legal careers that they’re generally, you know, excited about and and aspects of the job they like to to focus on. Okay, for junior lawyers maybe listening in today, you know, who are looking to pivot into commercial roles or into sort of in house legal teams, what research should they perhaps be conducting beforehand? Would you re recommend?

question. You mean if you want to pivot from private practice? Yeah. And you know, it’s a it’s a common path. We see that trend. You know, for people thinking about that maybe, what should they be leaning into when it comes to research? Yeah, it’s a great question. I think I think what’s really helpful before sort of choosing to move in-house is looking at sort of the different industries, because every industry is is very different. The majority of my career was in software.

And ⁓ I did a very brief stint in aviation beforehand. And I know that, you know, even though you’re in-house, it’s it’s completely different worlds if you’re in different industry. I would say definitely research, you know, industry specifics. If you wanna, you know, if you’re interested in tech, if you’re interested in software, for example, I would try and research the industry as much as possible. And I think the best way of doing that is talking to

in-house lawyers already in the industry and through like my social media platforms, I often get questions from people asking, what is there to think about with software? Because there’s like, you know, loads of industry specific things that I don’t think you would know unless you were in it. ⁓ For example, you know, the different types of software that a company might sell, the different sort of types of contract that are in play when you’re an in-house lawyer in software. So yeah, I would sort of not like think of in-house broadly. I would think of it

industry specifically and I would contact people to ask about like what are sort of the specifics in your role that I should be prepared for and go from there. Because I don’t think there’s anyone that can tell you more than someone who’s actually working in that area. Yeah. No, really good advice. And thanks for

For sharing that. You touched on earlier your sort of route into law. You know, it’s perhaps not the most conventional one. So can you talk us through your route through Silex, perhaps explain a bit about that, to the New York Bar, QLTS, and of course SQE two? Yes. So I feel like I touched a bit on everything, my qualification part. Yes. ⁓ I know it’s very unconventional, but ⁓ that’s just what happened, I guess. So when I

When I started working in-house, ⁓ as I mentioned at the time, there was only sort of the ⁓ LPC training contract route that was sort of largely known. And ⁓ with the training contract route, you need a contentious seat. I was working in-house. There was no contentious work. I mean, that’s another sort of big thing about in-house is that you don’t really go to court. You usually settle, ⁓ if you have businesses arguing. So

I couldn’t do a training contract, but I really wanted to qualify. So my manager at the time said to me, ⁓ look, have you looked at Silex? Never heard of Silex before in my life, so it just wasn’t as well known as the classic route. And Silex is the process that you take in order to become a chartered legal executive. A lot of people don’t know what that means because it’s just

Yeah, like I said, not as known. A charter legal executive is a qualified lawyer. They are not the same as a solicitor, but is similar in the respect that a charter legal executive is qualified to practice in a certain area, whilst a solicitor is qualified to practice in all areas. That’s the key distinction, which is why I it makes sense why st you know, most people still prefer to qualify as solicitors. But ⁓ at the time I I didn’t think that was an option for me, so I thought

Before I don’t qualify at all, I’ll I’ll become a charter legal executive. And the process for that was because I hadn’t done the LPC, I needed to do two exams and a piece of coursework. And I needed three years of qualifying work experience, which I had to demonstrate as part of a portfolio. This was under again like the old system. I know they’ve sort of they’ve changed it up a bit as well. So it it might not be quite the same, but it is likely to be similar.

So I pursued that. And even though I was told by my manager at the time, like if you qualify as a charter legal executive, we’ll promote you to be legal counsel, there won’t be a distinction with others who are solicitors. But I knew at the time already, because of just speaking to people, that there is still like a very traditional mindset in the legal industry, and I have found that myself as well, in that charter legal executives and solicitors are not.

treated in the same way or not seen in the same way, which I don’t agree with, but that has been the reality as I’ve seen it. So I would apply to jobs later on when I wanted to move on, I was, you know, just with my charter legal executive qualification and I would be turned down because I wasn’t a solicitor. So that really bugged me because ⁓ I had the experience, but you know, it was missing the piece of paper, I guess.

So I researched and researched and researched how could I become a solicitor without that training contract essentially. There’s also means which I and I know some people have used in order to qualify, where you can show that you have the equivalent experience as a trainee. Again, I couldn’t do that because of the contentious element. So researched and researched and found out that at the time, ⁓

I’m not sure what it’s like now. I think it might be similar now. But at the time you could qualify abroad and then cross-qualify into England by doing what was called the qualified lawyer transfer scheme that has been phased out and replaced by SQE now. But essentially it’s two exams, very similar to SQE, first exam being a huge multiple choice exam, second exam being a practical exam, testing you on a variety of skills in a number of subjects.

So I researched again where can I qualify abroad? Where recognizes English graduates as being eligible to qualify? And found out that New York is really flexible. So off I went to to go do the the New York bar. that was severely delayed due to COVID. So I couldn’t do it when I was supposed to. I actually ended up doing it online remotely from home because

You couldn’t be in an exam hall, which was actually very convenient. So it meant it didn’t I didn’t have to fly to New York, which you would do ordinarily. So I did the New York bar, past that, luckily. ⁓ I then started with QTS. So I did that that first exam, the QLTS MCT. And I was then going to move on to the second part of QRTS, which is a skills-based exam. ⁓ when

I found out by the SRA that in order to qualify under that that sort of system, I had to qualify by a certain date. ⁓ if I don’t make that date, then I wouldn’t be able to qualify under this old route because they were phasing in S QE. And that was really stressful because I’d passed the New York Bar, but I hadn’t been admitted yet because they had a backlog of I don’t know how many thousand people because of COVID.

So I had no idea when I would officially be a New York attorney. So I didn’t know if I was gonna make that sort of date that the SRA was sort of prescribing. So that was a bit stressful because I was like, done all these exams and now they’re telling me I can’t qualify if I don’t meet that date. If you know, and that date isn’t up to me. That’s up to the New York ⁓ Bar of Examiners, which, you know, I can’t influence. So I was actually

I wasn’t the only one in that situation. This is a very niche route, but there were others who were also in that situation. And we got together and we sent quite angry letters into the SRO because, you know, they were, you know, we spent quite a bit of money on all of this, a lot of time. And they were basically saying, Well, you can start again under SQD. So we were not having it. ⁓ and we were arguing with them. And in the end, they said, Okay, as a compromise.

Rather than doing the second part of QLTS, you do the SQE2, which is is very similar to the set like they literally replaced QLTS with SQE. The structure’s almost the same. So we were like, okay, fine, we’ll do that then. And it actually turned out well for me because like a very big part of my life now is is helping people with SQ2 prep. So ⁓ I was annoyed at the time. ⁓ but in hindsight, I I am grateful to the SRA for being

a little bit inflexible. So I did the SQ2. I did the first ever SQ2 in in April twenty twenty two, which was quite daunting because, you know, being the first intake, no one’s ever done it before. And it was quite like tough. A lot a lot of the materials were based on the key or TS OSCI, it was called the skill based exam. So that’s kind of what you prep with. ⁓ but, you know, it wasn’t

I guess, you know, the advice it was based on that exam, which was similar, but it wasn’t quite the same. So you kind of went in thinking like, Have I learned the right things? Have I sort of studied the right techniques? But I did pass, I did I did do quite well, but that experience really inspired me to create resources that I thought I you know, that I know not just thought I know would have helped me when I was studying for the S Q2. And I’ve been yeah, I’ve been providing

materials on my platform in House W since I think it’s 2023 now and it’s really grown and it’s going really well and it’s yeah it’s my my absolute pride and joy to to help people with this ⁓ with this exam because I know how tough it is and I found when I was doing the SQ2, less so now but at the time you know you only had sort of a handful of massive providers which are very sort of cost intensive.

And there isn’t much else to choose from. And I just really found that it’s it’s really harsh on students who need this exam to qualify as a solicitor. You know, it’s like you’re arguably a life-changing exam, a very sort of career necessary exam. And then you sort of, you know, you slap him with three, four thousand pounds in in course fees, let alone the exam fees. And often, you know, you don’t need the whole

course, like I’ve seen lots of students who, you know, they might have done SP one before the LPC before. They already have all the materials, but they might just need, you know, mocks, for example, to practice with to like get to grips with the format. They don’t need a full package. And I think that’s sort of where I’ve come in is like providing a variety of different options for people to choose from. They can go for just mocks or they can go for just summaries, revision summaries or

they can go for like bigger packages that include video. So they just go for what they need to supplement whatever they already have so that, you know, they can revise in the most cost effective manner to do this exam. And it’s been a long journey with with this business working, you know, full time ⁓ still as well. But it’s been honestly the most the most rewarding thing I’ve ever done. And look, clearly you’ve you you’ve shown resilience during that

journey, particularly on your own sort of, you know, New York bar, then to SQE and et cetera, et cetera, to other people that might be going through different or challenging qualification paths at the moment. How did you overcome the the challenges and what advice would you give to others? I can’t sugarcoat it. It was hard. And there were times I wanted to give up because you know everything just it just everything took longer and longer. I was supposed to do the New York bar and the sort of English transfer process within

think two years and it took me I think it took me three, nearly four in like three and a half into OTOR, and it was a long slog. ⁓ the advice I would give to people who find themselves in in perhaps similar circumstances is

Try, I know this is easy to say, but try not fall into the trap of thinking I’ll be happy when I qualify. Like I know you will be, but it it does sort of make it sort of stretch it out more, that sort of process you have to go through. I would try and like just focus on one day at a time. What really helped me as well was also working in sprints, I would say. So I would say, okay, I’m gonna study for two weeks.

And then I’m gonna have a week in where I don’t think about it. So always like schedule your breaks in advance as well so you’ve got something to look forward to. And what I think is very very important as well is just making sure you know what you’re doing throughout a week, that you have sort of a a set of tasks that you wanna get through. It’s a lot easier when you sit down to your desk that you already know what you need to do, rather than having to figure out what you need to do. So having a good plan, having sort of things to look forward to, like I said, like having

breaks to look forward to, but also nice things to look forward to. I do think that’s what got me through is I would do a sprint and then I would do like a little trip or like a little day out or something like that. And then a sprint again. And I know I said before, like don’t fall into travel thinking I’ll be happy when, ⁓ because it can feel that much longer if you’re studying over long periods whilst working. But also like when like I remember like, you know

cried to my husband, like, I can’t do this. and he was always like, you know, this is just for a short, like, this is for a confined period, this isn’t forever, and it will be worth it after, which is true. Like I have students, a lot of students as well, who who struggle with the studying and the working and some people have children and have other commitments and it is a lot to deal with. But I always remind them like just think about how it feels when you have that certificate.

Think about how it feels when you get that pay rise as an NQ. Like for me, that was a key motivator because the gap is in some industries, in some firms, it is substantial between being not qualified and qualified. Like just remember that you’re doing all this for those things and it will get better. ⁓ so yeah, that’s that’s sort of the things I would say. But I know I know it’s not easy and I think

Sometimes as law graduates as well, like it it kind of like to me anyways, you know, a lot of people are probably a lot more realistic than I. When I was in law, I didn’t expect it to be such a battle ⁓ to to qualify and to get there. ⁓ so I think, you know, if depending where you are in in your life, if you’re quite early on, you you haven’t sort of started that process yet, just be prepared. That is gonna test you. But ⁓

There’s also reasons why it’s it’s so testing, right? Like, you know, to to be a lawyer is sort of a regulated profession. It is quite a a challenging career that ⁓ demands quite a lot of people. So like, you know, this whole process is there to prepare you for that. Today’s episode is brought to you by Clio. If you’re spending more time managing your practice than practicing law, it’s time for a change. Clio is the intelligent legal work platform built for modern solicitors.

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Visit Clio.com forward slash UK to find out why thousands of UK solicitors trust Clio. Now back to the show. I think you’re right. And it it gets you sort of lawyer ready, doesn’t it? Almost future pueps you through through going through that that experience. And clearly you’ve gone through the the other side. What do you think the routes you have taken have given you over perhaps others who have gone through more of a traditional path? Good question. So a couple of things. I

Have a lot more experience, which is sector specific, compared to someone you would have gone for a traditional training contract. So, you know, you do a two-year training contract which has four seats. I just worked in software pretty much, I’ve now been in software for eight years now, and I’ve just been working pretty much in the legal counsel role for all those eight years, even though I wasn’t qualified.

So I have a lot more experience in this area compared to someone who would have gone through the traditional route. And I know as well, like when I apply for jobs, some in-house organizations don’t like that I’m in-house trained, ⁓ because they prefer someone who’s training contract trained. But a lot of people as well prefer me over someone who’s training contract trained because I have a lot more specific experience. ⁓ because everything I’ve done pretty much the past eight years.

is to do with software contracts. And if you come, you know, from a traditional training contract, you would have spent maximum six months in a TMT department where you may or may not have seen a software contract. So I think that’s what that’s a very big advantage, I I believe. The other thing as well, being new or qualified has been really helpful, which I wasn’t expecting because ⁓ I just did it ’cause I had to, but it’s actually been super helpful because

A lot of software companies are American and a lot of them, you know, the hiring managers are based out of the US. I mean, if you come to them with SQE or trading contract, you know, they’ll be like, Well, you know, we’ve never heard of these things before. New York Bar, however, every US attorney would have either done or heard of. So they you know, I I do think that gives me an advantage with US companies as well. They they do like that. I would say those are the two the two main ones that

my unexpected room produced. But everything happens for a reason. Maybe they are extra like you say now USPs, you I always say rejection is redirection. Maybe these redirections that you’ve had to go through throughout your own journey now are actually positives. Now you’re the other side of it. Just on the New York bar, how did the American style of exam differ from the the SQE? I get this question a lot. There are similarities. you know, there’s also a very big multiple choice aspect. There are

are sort of essays and and sort of tasks that are similar to the SQE. It is a lot more efficient. It’s two days rather than you know two split exams that in total are seven days. And you do sort of you know in two separate exam seasons. So it’s a lot quicker to deal with. I found it easier in the SQE, not necessarily the exam itself, but because it was so much easier to access past papers.

was so much easier to practice. And I did find that the syllabus provider was a lot clearer. It was very straightforward in a way. I mean, obviously it’s hard, but you know what to expect. And, you know, everything that came up, I mean, it it was hard, but it wasn’t like, my God, what is this? Whilst on the SQE I did sometimes have, you know, moments of what is this? I’ve not seen this before. ⁓ I do find that

The SRA. yeah, they d they don’t provide as much as what the New York Bar of Examiners do. You know, you can buy past papers and you can’t do that with the SQ, which I think is a huge disadvantage. So if if anyone listening here, you know, there are international people sometimes in firms or in-house that ask me, I can do either, what what would you do? I would choose the New York bar, definitely is faster

It’s yeah, more straightforward to prepare for. It’s just been around for so much longer as well. So that’s that’s just been my experience though. And a lot of people don’t believe me when I tell them my family you’ll buy easier ’cause it’s it’s got this reputation of being a tough exam, which it is, but I do find the SQE, I mean they don’t make it easy for us, I would say. Well, that leads nicely on to actually what you referenced before. ⁓ in House W, you know, you’re

education platform helping aspiring solicitors prepare for the SQE too. So tell us more about the platform building on what you’ve already shared and the resources available and and how you’re helping ultimately students sit for the exams. I have a range of offers ⁓ which can be bought separately where’s the package? So my most popular offer are mock questions. So self-practice mock questions, which are you know PDF downloadables so you can buy them.

can download them and you can practice them in your own time. And I think yeah, because there’s no past papers, that that has been sort of the most popular thing. I also offer outlines, so summaries of the functioning legal knowledge being tested. And I also offer feedback, so one-to-one services. So if anyone needs feedback on an oral mark or a written mark, they can buy sort of in any quantity they need. Anything between one and four marks they can buy on my website.

and get feedback on a mock they’ve attempted. And then there’s also course packages that include, you know, everything. So outlines, mocks, ⁓ feedback, but also videos where I walk them through the functioning legal knowledge, ⁓ the syllabus, and then also sort of techniques, how to approach the exam. So those, yeah, those are basically what I offer. And yeah, like I said before, it’s really important to me that students only get what they need. So with the mocks, for example, you could also just get

a little package just within the one subject. So one of the five subjects. So you could just get criminal litigation marks, outlines as well. You could just get a criminal litigation outline if if that’s what you want. ⁓ so that’s been sort of my my core driver is to not force students to buy everything, but just get the bit what you need. And sometimes, you know, very often I’ve got students saying, I’ve got your mocks but I want to upgrade to a course package because I think I need more

And then they just upgrade by taking off the amount they already spent. So yeah, no, I’m I’m very like yeah, I’m very conscious of of what students are dealing with. And I try to help as much as possible. You’re flexible, aren’t you? Trying to meet people where they’re at to help them get the education they need. ⁓ and I think that’s great that they’re not tied into these big packages for things that ultimately they may not need. ⁓ I mean it’s huge what you’ve done. You know, you’ve helped over 2,000 students prepare for the SQE too.

I heard recently at an event the mistake is not a mistake ⁓ if you do it once. It’s only a mistake if you do it twice following feedback. And I thought that was a really good way of looking at it actually, because we’re always typically learning, aren’t we? So, you know, the first time we never know. ⁓ it’s only deemed a mistake if it’s the second time after feedback, which I thought was quite an interesting perspective looking at it. But on mistakes, would you mind sharing what are some of the most common mistakes you see people make when it comes to all things SQA too? So most common mistakes are firstly, I think there is still

That assumption that SQ2 is a purely skills based exam and that you don’t have to worry about the legal knowledge. Yeah. Which I understand because SQ one is this huge multiple choice exam around, you know, legal knowledge. And I think a lot of people think I did my legal knowledge in SQ one, I don’t have to worry about it in SQ2. That’s not the case. SQ2 is still very much a law based exam. All the questions that come up on the SQ2 are phrased as legal knowledge questions. So you’re gonna have to know the law.

I’ve looked at dozens and dozens of students results who didn’t pass and it’s usually the legal knowledge that lets people down. So active recall of the legal knowledge is a must. Like you can’t get around that. I think that’s a very common mistake to just not check that you actually know the law without looking. The other mistake I see very often is students not doing timed mocks or not doing enough of timed mocks. So

I have also ⁓ worked with students in the past who had to resit and some of them had done no mock practice prior to sitting or you know done five mocks or something. Like you you have to remember like on the SQ2 you have three written days, on each day you have four assessments, so that’s 12. You have two oral days on each day you have two assessments, so that’s four. So you have 16 assessments in total across different skills.

You know, practicing five mocks isn’t gonna cut it. Like you need to I always say I would aim for two mocks per subject per assessment type. So that’s forty eight mocks. I would aim for practicing that amount so that you’ve seen every assessment in every subject at least twice. The more the better. And also making sure that you do it under time conditions. I see that very often as well with students. They don’t set a timer, they just you know, they just do it in whatever time they have. Like

give themselves and that again isn’t going to cut it because some of the assessments are really time constrained. Legal writing, for example, you have 30 minutes, like you don’t have time to dilly dally. You you need to get what you need to get out as fast as possible. So yeah, I would say those are the two most common mistakes I’ve seen. Again, thank you for being so thorough and and and sharing that. It’s only going help people going through these parts. you know, you’ve mentioned yourself working full time. For our

listeners and watchers who may be navigating the SQE two alongside working full time, what would be your advice to help them prepare effectively? First of all, be prepared. It is tough. secondly, I would be this is gonna sound obvious, but you really need to be super strict with timings. Like I I guess that’s that’s another mistake I sometimes see. You really need to set aside, you know, every day

You need to set aside time. So when I was studying for the exam, I set aside one to two hours in the evening. And then on the weekends, I would do I’d try to do a full day, but that sometimes just wasn’t possible energy wise. But I would try and do a couple of hours, four to five hours. So I would try and like s aim for ten to fifteen if you can. I for the SQ2 studied over a three month period. And I was very strict. I did I did put in the hours. And I see that often where students

They study here and there. So they’ll sort of put their books away for a week, then they’ll come back to it for a few hours, put it away, get get distracted, you know, they might sort of focus on other things. and you just can’t you can’t do that in my opinion. Like I know it sounds harsh, but you do need to put in consistent hours in the lead up to the exam. And you just need to be clear with ⁓ your family.

If you’re living with your family, be clear that I’m really sorry, but I can’t socialise or I can’t like do all the chores, I have to focus on this. The other thing, as well, is I would try and have honest conversations with your place of work. I didn’t, I have to admit, I didn’t get very far with my work, they didn’t really give me time to study. But I know some employers are more supportive and they do allow.

people to take, for example, an afternoon ⁓ paid study leave. It’s not common, is not standard, but I know employees that do do that. So we definitely have a chat with the manager, see what they can offer, and also just make sure that you let them know like, you know, obviously you you want to do the best you can at work, but this is not the time to pile it on. ⁓ because I know some employees they can be really, really harsh and just ignore the realities of

students ⁓ working and studying. So having those honest conversations, I think, is is really important. And again, great, great advice and and also setting boundaries, like you say, in a personal world as well. ⁓ really, really important. ⁓ a big question now. So, you know, feel free to, you know, share your views, but I know it can go in so many different directions. So the SQE, do you think it has leveled the playing field for those wanting to enter the legal profession or do you think it’s introduced new barriers? Good question. ⁓

Load question. Cause I know this is a very divisive topic. I think the answer is yes and no. well very loyally answers it depends. ⁓ I think you know, I think industry wise, you know, especially with you know, coming from in-house, I would say it’s opened up, you know, options to qualify. Like I’m a prime example, like at the time when I was working in-house.

If there had been SQE, my life would have been significantly easier. And I would have just gone ahead with that. So I think that’s been good. That like other legal roles are finally being recognized as being a place where you can qualify. So I think that’s been a huge improvement. But I do find it has raised barriers in other respects, I would say. Like I think the cost is madness. ⁓ and back, you know, back in the day when you did the LPC.

There were loans to do the LPC with. Now there are no sort of like, you know, because at the time I remember like the LPC could be done as a master’s as well. And it was possible to get a postgrad master’s loan. But now for these very expensive prep courses, like you I mean, you could put on a credit card, I guess, but like the interest rate’s insane. So I do think people who are financially disadvantaged, who don’t have

you know, the means as others. I do think there’s been a barrier added to those people. And I think as well, because I I hear this a lot from students, I think it is harsh that, you know, some students, yeah, this is gonna sound a bit controversial, but it it’s just it’s true. I think it’s it is harsh and a lot of students complain about the fact how students who get sponsored by law firms

you know, they get the course fees paid and they do S Q one, S Q two before they start training. They often have sort of study time, you know, they they only study, they don’t work and study. Whilst a lot of other students, you know, who aren’t sponsored, they will work and study, which that’s quite a different starting point, I would say. That’s that’s not the same. That’s not the same position ⁓ to be in when doing these exams. So yeah, I think it’s yeah.

I think it’s been been good in terms of widening the possibility to qualify in a greater air like greater variety of legal areas. But I do think it’s raised barriers in other areas like yeah, this the socio economic side of things, like the you know, the financial side of things. I I do think it’s it’s increased inequality. I I think is fair to say. Yeah, and again, thank you for being open and and sharing your, you know, on the ground live views now, you know, as someone who’s very immersed in this world. You know, looking

changes possibly for the SQE. Having sat it yourself, SQE too of course, what changes would you be championing to ensure then exams are more accessible? There’s two two things I would say. firstly

I think the finance side of things needs improvement. I just I d I don’t think it’s okay to say to to people, ⁓ you know, the SQ one is I think it’s two thousand pounds roughly, the SQ two is three thousand pounds without any prep courses. Like I do think there needs to be more options for people to pay for this, either I don’t know, either with loan options, instalment options, some other way. And I guess going back to the New York bar.

It has been incredible to see because like the US you kind of see as a slightly more expensive jurisdiction. New York bar cost me a fraction compared to the SQE. ⁓ like not comparable at all. So I think yeah, the SRA needs to be mindful, like in the current economy, asking people to fork out five grand, not considering resets as well. If you need, you know, if you need a reset, like it’s it’s pretty hardcore.

in my opinion, without any, you know, any support. And then the other thing I think as well that needs to be a little bit improved and I am like I’m also in in contact with the SRA as a SQE ⁓ materials provider is just like a little bit more certainty around the syllabus because there are like areas in the syllabus where it’s not one hundred percent clear what is being made clear, what could be included. So just a bit more clarity and ⁓

Yeah, I think just ⁓ you know, it would be great if they could start issuing past papers as well. I understand why they might not want to, because I guess it’s such a new exam and you know, it’s there aren’t maybe enough papers, I don’t know, but I do think it would help students just to see how does it look how does a real exam look like. I mean you get the sample questions on the website, but they are a lot easier than the real thing. And ⁓

you know, is is not quite the same. So I think those two things would help a lot if they could make changes there. Perfect. Well thanks again. Before I let you go, finally, what’s the most valuable lesson you’ve learned about staying resilient on your path to qualification? Another good question. You’ve got all the good questions. I think the the most important thing that I’ve learned is that everything takes time. I’m not the most patient of people. And I think

So starting this career, also starting my education business. I always thought, you know, I can do this fast. You can’t. There are no shortcuts. Everything takes time. My career took a while. Qualifying took a while. My business as well. Like I I founded I founded it originally in in 2020. And it was only like three or four years later I saw any form of interest. So I guess that’s the biggest thing I learned. And what I would also just sort of, you know, say to people who are

in the thick of it, whatever it is they’re currently doing, like give it time. Nothing, nothing is a quick fix. And you know, things worth having, just they take the time that they do. Really well said. And thoroughly enjoyed today’s conversation. And if our listeners, which I’m sure they will, want to know more about you or indeed get involved with your platform in house W, where can they go to find out more? Feel free to share any websites, any social media handles. We’ll also share them as an episode for you too.

So I’m very active on Instagram under the handle in house W. And then my website, inhouse W dot com, ⁓ explains all my office and you can buy everything that I’ve explained in this episode. So yeah. Perfect. Well, Madeline, thanks so much once again. It’s been an absolute pleasure having you on the show. From all of us here on the Legally Speaking podcast, sponsored by Clio, wishing you lots of continued success with your career and future pursuits. But for now, over and out.

Thank you for listening to this week’s episode. If you like the content here, why not check out our world leading content and collaboration hub, the Legally Speaking Club, over on Discord? Go to our website www.legallyspeakingpodcast.com. There’s a link to join our community there. Over and out.