Transforming the Legal Experience for All – Jack Newton – S6E13

00:08 Rob Hanna:

Welcome to the Legally Speaking Podcast. You are now listening to Season 6 of the show. I’m your host Rob Hanna. This week I’m delighted to be joined by Jack Newton, the CEO and Founder of Clio, our podcast brand partners. Jack completed his BSc and MSc in computer science at the University of Alberta. In 2008, Jack alongside his childhood friend Rian founded Clio, the first cloud based legal practice management software. Since then Clio has been awarded number 1 for Canada’s best managed companies by Deloitte; number 1 for Canada’s most admired corporate cultures by Waterstone Human Capital; the first company to receive BC Tech Associations Company of the Year, Anchor Success category, and more recently, the Data Breakthrough Awards 2021. Clio became a legal tech unicorn business in 2021, and has now surpassed the 100 million US annual recurring revenue achieving centaur status, a title used to describe private software SAAS service companies with over 100 million in annual recurring revenue. Jack is also the author of ‘The Client-Centered Law Firm’ sharing his insights on how to provide a client-centered practice. Jack has been named Canada’s most admired CEO by Waterstone Human Capital; EY’s Entrepreneur of the Year, and BIV’s Forty under 40, and Person of the Year at the 2020 Technology Impact Award. So a very, very warm welcome, Jack.

01:44 Jack Newton:

Hey, great to be here. Thanks for having me, Rob.

01:47 Rob Hanna:

It’s an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. And folks, this is our in person recording, we haven’t done one for quite some time. So it’s an absolute pleasure to have you with us in real life. And before we dive into all your amazing achievements, and what you’ve successfully done with Clio, we do have a customary icebreaker here, on the Legally Speaking Podcast, which is on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being very real, how real would you rate the hit series Suits in terms of the reality of the law?

02:13 Jack Newton:

Well, it starts off being you know, fairly fake, in that it’s shot in Toronto, with Toronto pretending to be New York. So they’re good Canadian connection with this show. But it’s, it’s, I don’t know, maybe a 5, 5 out of 10. And they don’t seem to use any law practice management software in the firm either. So maybe it’s even a 3 or a 4 out of 10. I mean you just can’t be a successful firm without a bit more technology. Donna, if she was real would would have LPM software.

02:38 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, this is very, very true. And I absolutely agree. I also gave it a rating of 5, so great minds think alike, when I was interviewed on another show, but this is all about you, Jack. So to begin with Jack, would you mind telling us a bit about your background and journey?

02:50 Jack Newton:

Yeah, absolutely. So what surprises some people is my background is not actually in legal. My background is in technology. I did a Bachelor’s degree and then a Master’s degree in computer science specialising in machine learning. My first job out of university was, actually the very first software developer at a University of Alberta spin off company called Anomics. At that company I was developing software to do medical diagnostics. That’s where I kind of caught this start-up bug. It’s where I really got excited about the idea of eventually building my own product and building my own company. And along that journey, my lifelong best friend, Rian Gauvreau and I, around 2007, started to see that the cloud was transforming almost every industry out there and started looking for an industry that we thought was ripe for transformation. And Rian was at the time working at 1 of Canada’s largest law firms called Gowlings. And he saw how poorly they leveraged IT to get their work done. And and that was the, you know, the light bulb moment for us realising that legal from a technology transformation coupled with this massive transformational opportunity that the cloud represented was an opportunity for us to build this company that we’d been building dreaming of building together for more than a decade, and that’s where we started working on Clio.

04:04 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, we’re gonna talk lots more about Clio. But I want to dive back in just to your journey because you know, it’s the argument are entrepreneurs born or made, and let’s get back to that sort of computer science side of you. Where did that interest and the reason for wanting to go to university and that come from?

04:18 Jack Newton:

Yeah, I think in my case, I’m definitely an example of an entrepreneur that was was born when I was growing up, and when I was as young as 8 years old, I started to think about businesses I wanted to run, I started a snow shovelling business when I was 12 or 13 years old, and I grew up in Edmonton, Alberta, which is a very cold and very snowy place in Canada. So it’s a good good place to have a snow shovelling business. I ended up enrolling some of my friends and my brothers in that, in that snow shovelling business. I had a computer building business when I was around 13 or 14 years old, and this is back before the days of Dell and a lot of the bigger computer companies out there. So building building PCs for for people was 1 of my early passions. I started programming probably when I was around 8 or 9 as well. So I was always passionate about computers. I remember my dad bringing home  an 80 86, 1 of the very first personal computers and just falling in love with it and writing initially games for for my my brothers and myself and eventually full blown programs. So by the time I got into university, I was pretty set on computer science being the direction I wanted to pursue. And for me what was always so exciting about computer science and programming and I think this is the same thing about company building that I enjoy so much is you, you really create something out of nothing, you can sit down at your computer and open up a terminal and start writing some code and build something that didn’t exist and build something that does something useful. So that’s, that’s, for me, what’s always been my passion and something that has always made me both a computer geek at heart and a builder and a bit of a entrepreneur as a result of that.

06:08 Rob Hanna:

And the perfect cocktail for success. And just listening to you there, there’s no surprise why you’re inspired by Steve Jobs, and I know he’s someone.

06:10 Jack Newton:

Another tinker.

06:11 Rob Hanna:

Another little tinker. So our 2008s were very different. You were busy founding a tech unicorn with your buddy Rian, I was coming out of university broke with no job or anything to do. So let’s get back to 2008. How did the name Clio come about?

06:21 Jack Newton:

Well we were both broke in 2008, so we did have that in common. So Rian and I started building Clio in 2007. And officially jumped in with both feet, quitting our jobs, and really starting on on the company in earnest in 2008. And part of the building journey was naming the product of course. So there’s an interesting history to the name where we started building Clio in 2007, where we saw this market need. And we saw that there was number 1 the cloud that was going to change everything. And we saw that legal was an industry that had really not been transformed by technology in general, and had not been transformed by the internet in particular, and thought that this was inevitable and we wanted to be the people driving that transformation. So part of the, I would say the business model validation we went through that we wanted to prove out this hypothesis that there’s an opportunity for this kind of a product. We started working with The Law Society of British Columbia, which is the regulator for for BC, for legal and similar to law societies here and similar bar associations in the in the US. And we had a conversation with the Director of practice standards, who helped us understand a few things that was really interesting. His job was disciplining lawyers that have gotten off side somehow, they’ve mishandled trust accounts, they’ve maybe deliberately or accidentally done that, they’ve had complaints filed against them by clients, they’ve missed e-limitation dates, and for some reason they’re in hot water with with a regulator and his job is to, you know, sanction them in some way. You know, sometimes that’s as severe as as being disbarred. Often it’s just, you know, how do we remediate the behaviour and make sure it doesn’t happen again. And what his comments to Rian and I were, were, were a few, a few fold. 1 was, it was solos in small firms that he had to spend all of his time disciplining and the solos and small firms, you know, if they drop a ball, there’s no one to catch it. Whereas a lawyer at a big firm, there’s a small flotilla of people ready to catch that ball. There’s paralegals, there’s assistants, but there’s a lot of people to jump in and help out the large firm lawyer. The solo, the small firm lawyer, even though a lot of mid-size lawyers don’t have that support ecosystem. And then the question we asked Kenzie was his name, the question we asked Kenzie was, well if they don’t have that human support system, why aren’t they using technology to better organise their practices? And, you know, Kenzi basically said, well there’s a bunch of technology out there. There’s, there at the time, there’s probably a dozen practice management products that were on crem, like, Practice Master and Abacus, and Amicus and Time Matters and you name it, but they were all expensive, and they’re all hard to use. So this was the light bulb moment for us realising that Clio was was a really big opportunity for the solo small firm segment. But then the question we asked ourselves, well how big can the segment be. This this feels like it must be a pretty small segment. And the research we did really opened our eyes and again, we were coming from this outside of legal so all of this was, we were talking about Suits earlier. Our perception of what the average law firm was was informed by the predecessors to Suits you know, the Ally McBeal’s and the the Boston Legals of the day. So we thought, no, most lawyers practiced in these, you know, big 500 plus person firms with fancy triply downtown office space and realised no, this is actually a very, very entrepreneurial space and 80% of lawyers practice in firms with 10 or less and half of all lawyer practice as solos. I’m getting to your question by the way.

10:04 Rob Hanna:

I’m loving it, carry on.

10:05 Jack Newton:

The way we got to Clio’s name was was a few fold. Number 1 Kenzi helped to give it the name when we decided, okay, we’re gonna build this product. It’s gonna be targeted at solos and small firms. We wanted to make it really personable and relatable. We wanted to almost be able to anthropomorphise the name into something that’s like, okay, this is somebody helping your law firm. We did not want to name it what it felt like every legal product out there was, which was like tech, pro, master, legal, lexs, select, you know, like that, that that was something we wanted to strenuously avoid. So we we said we want, we want this relatable name, and something that is short and memorable. And what what Kenzie suggested was Clio as basically a portmanteau of client organiser, and we were like, okay, you know it’s Clio, all right. It’s, to be honest our initial reaction was like, it’s not great, but we, we need something, we need to go live in 2 months so let’s pick something and Clio it was. And then the really neat kind of bookend to this story is prior to choosing Clio as a name we had chosen Themis Solutions Inc as the parent company name, so that anyone that’s employed by Clio in our terms of service, the legal entity behind Clio was Themis Solutions Inc. And we chose Themis as the Greek goddess of truth and law and order, the goddess of justice basically as the name of our parent company. And what we discovered a couple of years later that just felt like really poetic is that Clio is also the Greek muse of history. So there’s this very neat kind of Greek mythological thread through the the naming of Clio and so I think it worked out wonderfully. And it was funny, I was reading Shoe Dog by Phil Knight, I don’t know if you’ve happened to read, read his autobiography, but it’s really interesting hearing him talk about the naming of Nike, and, and again, they needed to change their company name because of a lawsuit from another company, and they landed on, somebody on his team suggested Nike, and initially he didn’t love the name and of course, grown on to become 1 of the most iconic brands in history. And I feel the same way about Clio, I you know, even though we were maybe a bit so so on it, you know, to start with, it’s really a name that I love now.

12:16 Rob Hanna:

What a beautiful story. And it just reminds me of what I tell people all the time, done is better than perfect because perfect never gets done. And in this scenario, it just happened to be 1 of the best decisions you made. And I also want to move on to you know, lovely knowing about the name of Clio, but a bit more about the strategy, because you were the first cloud based legal practice management software to hit the market. So explain more about what Clio is and sort of Clio’s strategy in particular?  

12:42 Jack Newton:

Yeah, no, it’s a great question. And our strategy was really pretty straightforward, which was, when we looked at the needs of small to medium sized law firms and looked at what the problems they were trying to solve, there was, number 1, a very clear need for something that was easier to use, simpler and streamlined compared to the solutions that were on the market. I talked about time matters earlier. Time Matters, you needed a consultant to come in and spend a few days with you and your firm configuring it, customising it, it was almost like buying SAP for an enterprise. Snd the average to solo small firm, and it was just a nonstarter, they didn’t have the time to make that kind of investment and getting their software up and running. The second piece was, the software the day was very expensive, both not only in terms of the time to implement, but in terms of absolute cost. You needed to buy the software, which was 1,000 dollars plus, you needed to buy a server to run the software on which is another few 1,000 dollars, you need to get all the networking configured. And you often need to hire an IT guy or gal to come in and figure all of that stuff for you. So the the absolute costs, both in terms of time and money were basically prohibitive for most small to medium sized law firms. And we saw that the cloud is this radical transformation of technology that you could just type in a website address and pay a month-to-month subscription fee, and have your entire practice in the cloud and managed by a third party and trusting a third party with your, with your data and with your software. And that was really the biggest leap that we had to make, the leap of faith we had to make, which was as the very first cloud based product in the marketplace. Is this marketplace going to embrace the idea or even if it’s not as as full blown as embracing cloud based software, is it an industry that will accept cloud based software? And again this was just a set the time period 2008, so the the iPhone, for example, had just been released, Dropbox was was announced and released to the public that year. So the cloud was very nascent. So this idea, although it sounds like something like what is generally accepted wisdom today was not at all the case in 2008, where the cloud is very early and the cloud and legal and what the ramifications for lawyers that have very specific duties to their clients and their data, but what does this all mean? And Rian and I had a lot of conviction in the cloud and that we could eventually, really make a strong case that the cloud is actually, and this sounded very audacious in 2008, while I think it’s accepted as as correct today that the claim we made in 2008 is your data will be safer in the cloud with a provider like Clio than it would be on an on premise system sitting in a server in your good for the average firm in your broom closet without even a lock on it and without a proper security audit being performed on it on a on a daily basis and so on. So we really believe that, in the long run the cloud would would win. But when we announced the product, and we launched our beta, just over 14 years ago now, in March of 2008 at ABA tech show in Chicago, was a really interesting reaction from the audience where we got such a polarised response. We had some people come up to us and literally hug us and say, we’ve been waiting for somebody to build software like this thank you I love what you’ve done with Clio and, this is going to run my firm. And we had other people come up and basically verbally attacked us saying, you know, this is irresponsible for you to encourage lawyers to store their data with a third party, to store their data in the cloud, how dare you. And what we realised pretty early on and again, this this was starting to percolate in 2008, 2009, Bar Associations were starting to get questions about whether the cloud was acceptable for a lawyer to use or not. And in fact, the very first ethics opinion issued on Bob Buting, from North Carolina in the United States, was the result of somebody asking if they could use Clio essentially. And we realised in this whole security and ethics discussion, we could either get dragged along by the debate, and that debate by the way was often being run by our on premise competitors, trying to run a campaign of FUD of fear, uncertainty and doubt. So we realised that there were some forces at work that were really trying to undermine pod adoption because they realised it was an existential threat to their business model. We realised we could either get dragged along by this conversation or really lead the conversation. And what we started doing in 2008, 2009 was started publishing white papers. I started speaking at any event, I could get invited to to speak on the security and acts of cloud computing for lawyers. I started getting CLE credits distributed for the talks I gave on the topic, our white papers started being cited by Bar Associations, we formed a lobby group called the legal cloud computing association that helped educate bar associations and law societies about the realities of cloud computing. And North Carolina ended up issuing a positive ethics opinion on cloud computing, saying basically, cloud computing is totally acceptable for a lawyer, as long as they are honouring their duty of privacy and confidentiality to their to their client, and that they perform a reasonable level of due diligence on the cloud computer they select. So that was a great outcome for, for us bit of a turning point in terms of cloud adoption and legal in the 2008, 2009 time period. And over the last 14 years, we’ve seen this, this just explosion in the number of cloud-based products and legal and we’re really proud to have been 1 of the trailblazers in that space and, you know, obviously evolved to the leader in the cloud based practice management space, but have this broader impact of inviting this, this huge group of cloud based companies helping drive true innovation and legal which is something we’re really proud of.

18:45 Rob Hanna:

And absolutely right to be proud of. And it’s inspiring, I think, the elephant in the room we need to address this also and back to the entrepreneurs born, 2007 we were in a global recession. You know, so that risk element of all in believing in it. I think there’s so much wisdom shared there that if you believe in something, you spot something golden and I forget the statistic of number of unicorns that are actually born from recessions, but actually in a downtime it’s not a bad time to get busy and start thinking about that creativity.

19:11 Jack Newton:

I think that’s very true. And I think a good idea can be born anytime. And I think there’s a lot of benefits to launching a company in a recession that aren’t appreciated, you there’s scrappiness, I think that goes along with being outed in a in a recession, things like hiring can be actually a lot easier in a climate like the 1 we had in 2007, 2008. And like the 1 frankly, it feels like we’re in right now as well, with a lot of uncertainty in the economy. When you’re building something new, you need every advantage you can get. And especially if you’re talking about building technology, recessionary environment ends up being actually a really positive factor in the sense that every company every law firm is trying to figure out how do I do more with less? How can I leverage technology to get better and if you can figure out a way of solving a problem in that ecosystem, and really advancing specific business in terms of how they get work done, and help make them more productive, again, this kind of environment can be really positive. But I do remember wondering if I was insane a few times in 2008, especially the week before we launched Clio the cover of The Economist was, the illustration was of the logos of every major bank in the world swirling around a drain, and the headline was, ‘when will it end?’. And again, we’re, Rian and I are looking at each other wondering, you know, are we really launching a product in this in this environment, but but again, it turned out to be amazing timing, and, and maybe the last comment I’ll make on this front, as well as, I think companies, I talked about this concept of anti-fragility, in my ClioCon keynote, and the idea that, in these kinds of recessionary environments there’s always companies that are born, or companies that enter the recession and emerge from it stronger. And, and, and it can be a real crucible to help define a company culture and help define the problem that a company is solving. And I’m a very big believer in constraints being a positive factor in the creative process and again, working with whether it’s financial constraints or, or otherwise could is where real innovation and real creativity can happen.

21:25 Rob Hanna:

Yeah. And I just love your whole whole mindset on this. And I think the key point I’m taking from that as well and going back to Nike, just do it, right? You know, so many entrepreneurs have these ideas and get stuck in procrastination or they don’t go for it. And it’s incredible, you know, and I also say to people as well, it’s better to be first than it is to be better sometimes. But in Clio’s sense you were first and you were better. So you know, congratulations on that. And I mentioned in the introduction all the awards, all the accolades, everything you’ve been doing, but how did you build the company to what it is today? And can you explain more of that evolution of Clio?

22:04 Jack Newton:

Yeah, for sure. And number 1, I’ll just come in, I agree that great is the enemy of good, you know, and you need to think about just shipping it. How do I get something out the door? How do I make incremental progress? I’m a huge fan of James Clear and and his book Atomic Habits, that just talks about just be incremental. You get 1% better at something every day, you’re 37 times better at that thing in a year. So that’s the kind of mindset I’ve always embraced for myself and embraced at Clio, as well as this idea of just incremental progress and, and in a lot of ways that, that’s been realised at a company level where, again, it’s a huge success today, but it’s 1 of these overnight successes, 14 years in the making. We started with pretty humble beginnings. It was just Rian and I that coded all of Clio, where we were technical support agents, number 1 and 1, we were salespeople number 1 and 1, we were wearing all the hats. And I think that’s really essential to you know the early stages of a business is you need to do a job before you can train someone else to do that job. And you’ve got to roll up the sleeves and be willing to do basically everything from soup to nuts kind of perspective in building the business. And that’s something that Rian and I did in the early days, and we scale pretty slowly, we made new hires over those first 2 years, and you know Clio was only 13 people 4 years into our evolution. And then I think what we saw was just the tipping point of cloud adoption, it was, you know, it was really exciting progress over those first few years, but it was relatively progressive, I guess, it wasn’t exponential is more linear growth at that point. And then, you know, I really feel like we hit that S curve of growth around 2012. And that both the company and the product and its adoption rate and legal started to explode. And we we, if we lined this up against our financings as well, we raised a small angel round in 2008, raised our Series B in 2012, raised our Series C led by Bessemer Venture Partners in 2014. And this was some of the very first venture money money in legal, so it was a really big deal raising at the time, 20 dollar million from Bessemer Venture Partners, and then a huge investment round 250 dollar million investment round from from TCV and GMI in 2018. And most recently, just over a year ago, 110 dollar million investment round from led by T-RO and, you know, over the course of the 14 years we’ve grown from me and Ryan, you know, do 2 person company to where we’re almost 1,000 people today with offices in Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto, Dublin, a huge international footprint, we’re used in over 100 countries around the world. And in terms of the evolutionary journey along the way, I’d say 1 of the key challenges has always been how do we maintain the incredible culture that existed in Clio on that scale and journey from 2 people to 1,000 people has just been a wild journey and what I’m one of the things I’m most proud of isn’t the company’s success. It’s actually the cultural success we’ve seen as a company. And it’s a company that people love to work at, that they feel deeply connected to their colleagues, they feel deeply connected to our mission. And we’re really a mission driven company, to, with a mission to transform the legal experience for all. And the fact that, you know, we’ve we’ve been able to crystallise and instil, you know, set of values in our team, that those values are reflected in their day to day behaviours in that close to 1,000 person organisation with a footprint across these 4 offices. But also, we have a world of work that’s very different than it was pre pandemic as well, where much of our team is distributed around North America, around the world more broadly, that we’ve been able to keep that cultural connectivity strong over that time period is something I’m really proud of as well.

25:37 Rob Hanna:

And it’s something I’ve personally tasted and experienced working with Clio or the Clions, as you say, which I love. You know, everyone is down to earth, efficient, professional, and really believes in that mission that you mentioned. I love that you talked about compounding as well, going back to that point, I think it’s so important taking those minutiae and details how far you can go in a year, 10 years plus wherever it may be. And I want to focus a little bit more on those obstacles because they say new level new devil. So you know, what was the single biggest obstacle you’ve faced whilst building Clio? You touched on obviously finding the people and maybe a side question, just because I’m curious the entrepreneur in me. Do you miss those days of being scrappy, just the 2 of you? Or would you would you go back there again 1 day?

26:32 Jack Newton:

Yeah, so lots of great questions in there. And I have never heard new level new devil, that’s a good good saying certainly resonates. And it’s part of what’s kept me energised and excited to continue working on Clio year after year as well, 14 years, a long time to be working on something and at this point Clio was really my life’s work, and what’s kept me excited and engaged every day is it does feel like a new job every quarter, you know, running a 100 person company is very different running a 150 person company, is very different from running a 500 person company, and so on. So the the new levels and the new challenges you encounter along the way is something that’s very exciting. I would say the biggest challenge we faced in the early days of Clio was fundraising in that 2008 environment where we were pitching Clio, and pitching to every VC, every angel investor that would listen to us and getting the most agonising feedback, which was, this is 1 of the best pitches I’ve ever seen. You guys are onto something there’s no question this product is going to be successful, but I’m sorry we’re just not writing check right now. Because people were just pencils down and worried that the financial system as we knew it was going to collapse. And as white knuckled as everyone is today about the recession that we’re either about to enter or already in, there’s not that level of fear. And you know there’s certainly anxiety about what the economic ramifications of the recession are going to be and how long is this high inflation environment gonna last and so on. But people aren’t worried the financial system as we know it is going to collapse. And that was the worry in 2008. So, I would say it’s surviving that first year was the biggest existential threat that Clio faced from a financial perspective. And the punchline to that story is, is hilarious by the way, it’s 1 of my favourite Clio stories. But against this backdrop of me and Rian pitching every angel investor we could find and hearing no day after day after day, and you know, again, they talk about this a lot in start-up land, but you need to be tenacious, you can’t let the nose and the difficult days get you down. You just need to persevere through that. And so we heard no over and over and over again. And it turns out in in 2008, this guy named Christoph Janz, who was, had just sold his company to the MySpace group yet running this company called PagePlay as 1 of the very first Web 2.0 homepage apps. That he sold his company and started investing his money as an angel investor. And he sent an email to me and Rian, didn’t know us personally, but a friend of mine had just published a article about Clio on this blog called Web 2.0 central.com. Christoph read it and said hey, I just read this blog post. It’s fascinating. I like what you’re doing with Clio, I’d be interested in potentially investing. And I just invested in this company called Zendesk, and that was the one Zendesk with 4 guys in Copenhagen that helped make that investment and Christoph was based in Germany by the way, so we get this email from a web dot d e email address talking about investing he sent it just to our info at go Clio dot com at the time, and it went straight to our spam folder, because it looked like a spam email probably. And, and because we inadvertently slow played Christoph he sends a follow up email 2 weeks later saying hey, I’m just want to reiterate I’m really interested what you guys are doing I’d love to invest, and what I can only describe as an act of God, Rian 1 day decides to check what’s in his spam folder, which he’d never done previously. I don’t think he’s ever done since. And saw this email from Christoph and he forwarded it to me and saying hey, this looks legit. I follow up with Christoph. He does some due diligence, we get to know him and he ends up leading Clio’s seed round and it was just a great example of you know, number 1 playing the odds and just making sure you’re getting your name out everywhere. You know my friend who wrote this blog post that Christoph ended up reading, I was initially a bit dubious about like, do we want to do an interview, do we, do we want to do the posts, you just never know where the exposure that you generate will will lead to. And you know, I guess check your spam folder is the other piece of takeaway advice, like you never know what you’re gonna find in there. And for us it was a company defining moment. So that was the financing journey and the the very strange story with Christoph, who ended up being not just the money we needed, but the investor we needed. He was a huge coach to me and Rian, and that investment in Zendesk really helped us see some of the challenges that laid ahead of us in the in the journey. And then I think the second defining moment for us beyond just the financing question was, could we drive the adoption of cloud computing and legal, like do we really help make lawyers feel secure in their data being safe in the cloud, and and this whole approach we had, I think of being thought leaders around the security and ethics and cloud computing, ended up helping us round that corner. But if we had not been proactive about that, I don’t know if it would have happened. So again, it’s it’s we talked about Steve Jobs earlier, and 1 of the things he talks about is just realising you can change the world around you. And just, if we felt like we were going to operate within the parameters that existed of the day in 2008, cloud computing for lawyers, that cloud based LPM would just be a nonstarter. No, it’s not going to be widely accepted. But if you realise now we can drive transformation in this industry, we can change the mindset of this industry, and embrace the fact that might take years or it probably took the better part of a decade to really drive that transformation. If you have that conviction, you can really, you can really change the world around you in a positive way.

31:43 Rob Hanna:

Inspiring, absolutely love it. And the word or the acronym that comes to mind with that push, persist until something happens. And I think what a fine example, you just shared there of the Clio story. And I remember 1 of my mentors, when I first started on business saying staying in the game, you know, I think it talks a lot about mindset, resilience, you’re going to experience all of those push backs, but also the opportunity, you know, checking that spam folder, you need a bit of luck along the way, but you make your own luck by actually taking that initiative of actually doing that. And I just absolutely love it. And a little top story, folks, it was an email in my junk inbox which landed us the relationship we have with Clio today. So there we go. Things always come forward to.

32:20 Jack Newton:

Check your spam folder.

32:21 Rob Hanna:

Always check you spam folder, but super inspired by that.

32:25 Rob Hanna:

Time for short break from the show. Are you looking for a way to get your firm working more efficiently and profitably, while ensuring a better work life balance for your team? Well, if you haven’t considered our sponsor Clio, I’m here to strongly recommend that you do. I absolutely love working with Clio. Not only is it the world’s leading legal practice management and legal client relationship management software, it also has a really solid core mission, to transform the legal experience for all. Something I personally support. What sets Clio apart for me, it’s their dedication to customer success and support. There are lots of legal software’s out there, but I know from talking to Clio users that their support offering is miles ahead of the rest with their 24-5 availability by email, in app chat and over the phone. Yes, you can actually call in and speak to someone. Clio is also the G2 Crowd leader in legal practice management in comparison to 130 legal practice management software’s and has been for the last 14 consecutive quarters. G2 Crowd is the world’s leading business solutions review website. You can check Clio’s full list of features and pricing at www dot Clio dot com forward slash Legally dash Speaking. That’s www dot C L I O dot forward slash Legally dash Speaking. Now back to the show.

33:54 Rob Hanna:

So let’s talk about Clio in terms of what you offer. I’m a huge fan, you know, what are some of the current products you have on the market?

34:00 Jack Newton:

So we’ve got our flagship product, which is Clio Manage, which is the product we launched 14 years ago that that really I think, is a law firm in a box. If you’re a small to medium sized law firm everything you need to run your law firm from, intake to invoicing, you can track your time manage, your calendar, bill your clients, you can get paid electronically. There’s just all sorts of capabilities in cloud manage to help you run the business of law. And again, the essential problem that we looked to solve back in 2008 was, the average lawyer goes to law school and learns how to be a great lawyer. They learn how to argue a case. Unfortunately, most lawyers do not learn anything about what running a successful law firm looks like, what running the business side of a law firm looks like. And we wanted to make Clio really that that law firm in a box that makes, running a successful law firm, really easy, really intuitive, really straightforward. If you just embrace the best practices in Clio, you will run a thriving law firm. So that’s Clio Manage. We’ve acquired and organically built her own add-ons and extensions to Clio Manage over the years. We have Clio Grown now, which is a legal CRM that helps you manage from a lead to a client essentially. So you can track where are you investing your marketing dollars, what what acquisition channels for new clients are the most productive? Managing the process, basically the pipeline of somebody that comes in from your lead website and how do you nurture that lead into a client eventually. So, if you think about Clio manages everything that happens after you sign the engagement letter, Clio Grow is basically everything that happens beforehand, and helping manage that that journey of the lead to becoming a client of your firm. We’ve recently acquired Lawyah, it does an acquisition, we made about a year ago that is all about document automation. And again, this is based on our core belief that documents are the atomic unit of work in legal and what can we do to help make documents more intelligent, more automated, how can we help you, for example, send a questionnaire to your clients to help them populate the fields in a document and produce a polished PDF that you can execute with integrated e-signing Clio, that’s Lawyayh. We also have a number of court forms available through Lawyah that help automate many pieces of court form workflows. And we’re going to be bringing some of that technology to, to the UK and our EMEA customers as well. And finally we have Clio Payments, which has been a huge investment for us over the last couple of years, a huge area of innovation in legal where we’ve, we’ve brought electronic payments as a deeply integrated and embedded piece of the Clio technology stack. Something that spans everything from Clio Grow is to Clio Manage to Lawyah, and right now, that’s live in the US. But we will be bringing that to additional markets over the course of 2023 as well and really excited for the next chapter of growth with Clio Payments.

37:16 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, and it’s exciting. And I personally hate this next question, so you can like, no let’s move on Rob, but it’s, I think, we’re recording in 2022 just put that on the record. What can we expect to see from Clio within the next 5 years?

37:27 Jack Newton:

So I think it’s a very fair question. And if I think about where we’re at thematically, I think what we’ve really succeeded in over the last 14 years and building Clio is building the operating system for legal. And our vision there is, if you’re a law firm of virtually any size now, you know, Clio’s evolved from a product that was targeting solos and small firms with its functionality to a product that’s used everywhere from the solos to some of the world’s largest law firms are using Clio across a handful of their practice groups. We’ve got now many customers that are 50 lawyers to 100, 150 plus lawyers on the platform. So we’ve succeeded in building this operating system for a huge chunk, 80 plus percent of the legal market, from a law firm perspective. We have this incredible thriving ecosystem of 200 plus integration partners that are building on top of that platform to the cloud, you know, and now now, it’s table stakes for a law firm to be thinking about, how are we running our technology in the cloud? So I think in terms of our original mission from 14 years ago, it’s kind of mission accomplished, you know, there’s still a lot of, a lot of work to be done. And we’re still I would say in the early majority part of that adoption curve of the technology, adoption technology diffusion curve, but we’re well on our way. So to me what the next 5 years, maybe even the next 10 years are going to be about is, how do we change this idea of moving law practice management to the cloud, to the idea of moving the law practice to the cloud? How do we help move the entire legal journey, from a client’s perspective to the cloud? And how do we help most law firms move most of their operations to the cloud as well? So what I’m talking about here is, yes the technology you’re using to run your law firm is in the cloud, but how do we fundamentally transform the client experience and the way that consumers, both business consumers and personal consumers alike? How do they access legal services? And we know most legal demand today is starting with a Google search. And how do we kind of build out from there and say, you know, the, the need for, for example, bricks and mortar law offices may be vastly reduced in the future as a result of this transformation. We’re going to have lawyers taking that client, right from Google to a virtual meeting and a secure meeting online. Those clients don’t necessarily need to come into your office to help you write down answers to a questionnaire. They can do that online with a really simple streamlined workflow. 1 of the big themes I talked about is the idea that consumer expectations have shifted radically over the course of the last decade. And especially the course, over the course of the last 2 or 3 years with a pandemic, in terms of how, they expect every service provider they work with, to adopt and embrace technology. So for me the next5 or 10 years is really going to be about that much more fundamental and deep transformation of legal, how lawyers work with each other, how they work with clients, how we move that entire client journey to the cloud. And as a result, the the outcome I think we’ll have from this is 1 I’m really excited about as well, where I think we’ll have lawyers that are happier and more productive and have better work life balance was a huge struggle for for the profession, we’ll have clients that are seeing better legal outcomes, and less friction associated with their legal journey. And because we’re taking out a huge amount of cost basis from the way most law firms are operating today, we’ll be able to deliver legal services more affordably and more excessively, and improve access to justice. So I think if we execute on this vision for the next 5 to 10 years, there’s going to be a huge win win win for lawyers, for clients and access to justice.

41:05 Rob Hanna:

I love that. And it’s very clairvoyance of you. Because my next question was going to be in your interview with Reuters, you did share prior to the pandemic, “things were broken. We had an inaccessible legal system that delivered a really poorly in terms of access to justice; delivered, on average, really poor client outcomes and customer experiences”. So we know and you’ve just mentioned there Clio provides legal aid billing. So how else is Clio sort of committed to remedying that inaccessibility regarding the legal system? Anything you would like to expand on?

41:37 Jack Newton:

Yeah, something I’m really passionate about is helping, helping legal professionals understand that improving access to justice is not synonymous with doing pro bono work. When we talk about the access to justice problem, and we talk about the fact that 77% of legal problems are not solved by lawyers today and that’s a stat from the World Justice Project. This this is not going to be solved by an army of lawyers doing pro bono work. What we’re really seeing here, is that product market fit between the way lawyers deliver their services today and the way that the average consumer wants to consume them, has extremely poor product market fit. If legal was a startup, it would be told it’s got a lot of work to do to improve product market fit. And and to me, you know, what, what needs to happen here is, is is not solved by pro bono. This is about lawyers fundamentally rethinking how do we price and package and deliver our legal services. And how do we get more innovative on pricing to deliver products in a way that consumers want to consume them. We had Seth Godin speak at Clio Con a few years ago, and 1 of the quotes from his speech that stuck with me, and is so simple but so profound as Seth is great at doing, he said, no one ever woke up with a billable hour problem, you know, and, and yet that’s what most lawyers are selling is billable hours, you want to buy a billable hour, maybe 2 or 3, and you need to build empathy. And this is what I talk a lot about in my book, The Client-Centered Law Firm, is you need to build empathy for your clients, you need to understand truly what are the problems you’re going to solve for them, work outward from that, and when you think innovatively about solving those problems, we can really solve the access to justice problem, which is really at the end of the day, a product market fit problem. We are not selling legal solutions to consumers in a way that is accessible to them or compelling to them. And I’ll give you 1 concrete example of what this can look like this, this can all sound kind of heady and theoretical. But, let’s just look at something as simple as a will. And if you’re a wills and estates lawyer, and you’re producing a will most lawyers think about this as a really transactional process, you know, you come into my office, you ask for a will, I’ll interview, I’ll find out how many kids you have, you’re married, I’ll give you a piece of paper or 2, tell you to lock it in a safe deposit box and charge you 500 or 1,000 dollars for it. And for most lawyers, that’s the end of it. They will never follow up with that client, they’ll never talk to that client again, unless that client reaches out to them. And that’s what’s so broken, you know, is number 1, if you’re building empathy for what’s truly going on with that client, you understand what they’re looking for is actually peace of mind. They’re not looking for a piece of paper, they’re looking for peace of mind that if something happens to them, unexpectedly their family’s taken care of. How do you create that peace of mind? Well, it’s not a transaction it’s an ongoing process. You want to make sure that will is up to date no matter what happens in their life. Do they get married? Do they get divorced? Do they have kids? Do they move from 1 location to another, different jurisdiction? That might, all of that might require their will gets updated. And you start to think about that and you realise, well, maybe a will should actually be a subscription. Maybe it’s something you’re paying 50 dollars a year for rather than 500 dollars upfront. Maybe you say for that 50 dollars a year, or maybe it’s 100 dollars a year, you get as many updates to your will as you need to reflect you’re changing and evolving life circumstance. I’ll send you a questionnaire once a year, asking you what’s changed and make sure you’ve got that up to date will. And now you know if you think about just that simple shift in thinking, the way you would price and package the legal solution in that scenario, you’ve done a few things. Number 1, you’ve actually solve the legal outcome the client is looking for, you’ve created a solution to their problem. Again, nobody woke up needing a piece of paper to put in their self-safe deposit box, they woke up needing peace of mind. And a lawyer can be a partner in helping create that great legal outcome. This is also a win for the lawyer because instead of a fixed transactional fee of 500 dollars or 1,000 dollars, he’s now got a recurring annuity, he’s now got recurring revenue of 500, or 50 dollars or 100 dollars, and the lifetime value of that, by the way, and this is another concept from the SAS world, the software as a service world that I think a lot of lawyers would benefit from learning about is, the lifetime value of that customer is going to be how long they pay you that that 50 or 100 dollars a month or a year rather, and that will turn into you know, a client that is 5000 dollars or even 10,000 dollars over their lifetime, in terms of revenue. So hugely positive outcome for the lawyer, both from a cash flow perspective, and from a lifetime value perspective. And finally, on the access to justice piece, there’s a lot more people that can afford 50 dollars or 100 dollars a year for legal solution, than they can afford 500 or 1,000 dollars upfront for a transaction. So we’ve actually improved access to justice too. So this is where I think, I get so excited about this idea of reinventing the way we do legal because, there’s a lot of examples like that where you can create a win win win for the client, for the lawyer and for access to justice. This does not mean lawyers need to make less money. This does not mean you need to be short tripping your clients. This does not mean pro bono work. I mean that pro bono work is great, and it has its place. But we’re not going to solve this product market fit problem with pro bono legal services, where we need to rethink how we’re delivering legal services, and that that I think is a huge, this latent legal market, that 77% of legal problems that do not get solved by lawyers is a massive opportunity for any lawyer that can think innovatively about creating their their solution.

47:40 Rob Hanna:

That folks is a masterclass in commercial awareness. We talk and read a lot of these blogs. So I’ll just dissect that. We’re talking about customer lifetime value. We’re talking about annual recurring revenue, and if you’re a shareholder or you’re a owner in your business, you want that, your value of your shares is immediately going to go up. We talk about, you don’t just want clients, clients are good but relationships pay, touch points where you can follow up with them, value add, all of those amazing experiences. It’s much the same as me with my legal recruiting business. We’re not trying to build a database, we’re not transactional, we want to grow with people’s careers. Let’s start with them at the beginning, look at that customer lifetime value to when they make partner and look at the long-term relationships. So folks rewind what Jack just said, listen to that 10 times over, make notes, and I can assure you, you’ll definitely know a lot more about commercial awareness and what’s going on in the legal world moving forward. So you did touch on your book, and I want to talk a little bit more about that The Client-Centered Law Firm. So what do you hope for your audience really to learn and really take away from the book?

48:30 Jack Newton:

Well the book is really advocating for a paradigm shift in terms of how lawyers think about delivering their legal services. And it’s, it’s a shift that is away from I think what has historically been a very lawyer centered way of thinking about legal service delivery. And again, something as foundational as the billable hour, is a lawyer centered construct. This is something that is helping lawyers, helps create predictability for lawyers, helps create certainty around the time investment and the financial outcome that will be associated with a legal project for a lawyer. But it is not what the average buyer is looking for, you know, the average client again is looking for a solution to a problem. They want to have, in many cases, value-based billing, they want to understand what they’re getting into and they want their lawyer to feel like a partner to them, as you pointed out, not somebody that is, they’re transacting at an hourly, on an hourly basis with but somebody that is, a true partner to solving their business problem or their personal problem with. And what what I talked about in The Client-Centered Law Firm is just a real paradigm shift in terms of how do we rethink the way we’re delivering legal services, if we kind of let the Reuters quote that you highlighted, if we just accept that the legal system as it exists today, is broken. And again, you can’t look at the data, and not agree with that. 77% of legal problems not being solved by lawyers. Huge access justice problem. Lawyers, you know, and this this strange paradox, by the way, when we look at our Legal Trends Report data we also see that 80% of lawyers say that number 1 thing they need to help grow their law firm is more clients. So on 1 side, on the demand side of consumers, you have people saying, about 77% of people aren’t having their legal problems solved. On the supply side of the equation with lawyers ready to solve those problems, you have 80% of lawyers saying, I’m, I don’t have enough clients I want more clients. Any economist will look at this and just say, well what’s broken? Why can’t we connect the supply and the demand? And it is because we’ve got this broken product market fit. So the data tells us, legal is broken. It’s working for a very narrow slice both lawyers, and clients. How do we re-envision it? And how do we kind of take a clean sheet redesign of how we might approach delivering legal services? And there’s just so much inertia as well, you know, legal is a very precedent driven profession. It’s a profession where a young lawyer goes and learns how to be a lawyer and how to run a law practice from a more senior lawyer. And unfortunately what ends up being the case is a lot of very constrained thinking ends up happening as a result. There’s not you know, even the example I just talked about with wills, there’s not a lot of out of the box thinking about it’s, it’s, it’s how we’ve always done it, it’s how we’ve always done it for hundreds of years in some cases. So The Client-Centered Law Firm is basically a manifesto. Number 1 saying there’s a new way of thinking about how we deliver legal services, and we can do it in a client centered way where we build empathy for our clients, we build a deep understanding of the problems they’re trying to solve, and we work out from there to build a very client centered approach to building solution for them. The key point in this as well by the way is is that we are not, this is not client first, this is client centered. The reason I don’t call it the client first is that of course implies an ordering where the lawyers interest or the law firms interests or the paralegals interests are second, third and fourth to the client. And again, this is not the mindset, if we do a good job of client centered design, we can realise these win win wins, where it’s actually a better outcome for everyone. It’s not a tradeoff, it’s not a zero-sum game. It’s actually a positive sum game where we can have a better outcome for lawyers, for clients and for access to justice. So the book really does 2 things. It helps motivate why being client centered is so important. It helps motivate the idea that client expectations have shifted radically in the 10 years that we’re seeing the consumerisation of legal services and the consumer expectations are being reshaped by all the experiences they’re having on a day to day basis, whether that’s with with Amazon or Airbnb or Uber or other professionals in their in their life, their their expectations are being reshaped dramatically. And then it’s a playbook for how to do that. It’s really, really pragmatic and practical, in terms of how do you actually bring these learnings to life.

53:05 Rob Hanna:

And I’m just inspired by this whole conversation because we’ve talked about Jack the entrepreneur, the author, the CEO, but I wanted to put your own personal hat back on because you’re also an investor, and you know, you invest in companies you, feel free to share if you’d like some of your investments you’ve done and how do you spot a good investment?

53:20 Jack Newton:

Yeah, so I’ve, I’ve done a number of investments from an angel investment perspective. And, and really, I have a very simple thesis when it comes to investing. And I invest in entrepreneurs that inspire me and that are mission driven. And that I think can change the world. So I’ll give you 2 examples of investments I’ve made and Jacqueline Schafer at Clearbrief, she has built this incredible, I’m not sure if you’re familiar with Clearbrief, but it’s this AI driven tool to help lawyers write better briefs and be more accurate in their citations and just build really compelling documents that, help them argue their case in an in a very definitive way supported by AI and ML. And Jacqueline is just 1 of those people that you can tell will run through walls to realise the vision she has for this product. Hello Divorce is another company I’ve invested in and Erin Levine, the Founder and CEO there she’s another just incredible visionary that has a vision for how she can reshape uncontested divorces. And it’s another great example by the way of this win win win scenario where she has made uncontested divorces that used to cost 20,000 dollars on average, something that consumers can access for 1 or 2,000 dollars. The lawyers that work for Erin behind the scenes that Hello Divorce are the same lawyers that used to do those 20,000 dollars divorces that very complex and more adversarial divorces, they’re making more money doing a higher volume of transactions with with this Hello Divorce business model than they were in their old world of doing the 20,000 dollar divorces. And again to this access to justice piece, the consumers are seeing legal outcome that they may not have been able to afford previously, people are getting out of abusive relationships that they wouldn’t have been able to previously thanks to the technology and the platform Erin has built at Hello Divorce. So really, you know, my, I invest in start-ups I believe in in founders, I believe in that I think are driving positive transformation for the world and just kind of fit into almost what I would consider the, you know, the halo of this, this this vision I have for how we will create a better and more just legal system with technology.

55:45 Rob Hanna:

I love that. And I love how you, you know, they say people buy from people and you were just articulating the traits that you look for in those people and running through walls and that mindset they have and yeah, I’m just a big fan of your strategy. So we can’t finish this podcast without talking about ClioCon. So I was absolutely loved it this year. I was live streaming in from London. I thought it was a fantastic event. Can you tell us more about ClioCon and also talk a little bit more about your keynote, which I found fascinating because you touched on it briefly earlier on about the anti-fragile law firm. And so we’d love to just talk a little bit more about that and tell folks about Clio.

56:18 Jack Newton:

Yeah, no, that’s that’s a great question. And I’m still on a high from ClioCon despite, you know, the distance of a couple of weeks and jet lag flying halfway around the world to be here in London this week. I am absolutely still on a high from from ClioCon, it was so energised energising to be back in person, it was our most well attended ClioCon ever, with 2000 plus attendees on the ground and 1,000 attendees virtually. This remote viewing party in London and viewing parties that were happening around the world, attendees from over 20 countries attending the conference both virtually and in person was, was phenomenal. So it’s great seeing what a international event Clio ClioCon has become it is you know, without, I realise I am running ClioCon but I do believe it’s it’s the best legal technology conference in the world now, which is a really, you know, it’s not just me that thinks that people like like Bob and Rosie have commented on on the same thing that we’ve over the course of now the decade of running ClioCon it’s our 10th anniversary which made it really special ClioCon as well. I feel really proud of what we’ve been able to accomplish in terms of creating a conference that is bigger than just Clio. You know that our vision has always been, let’s make this the conference where the leading minds and legal innovation come together and envision a better legal system and envision how technology can be an essential part of realising that future vision. And so what we’ve built with what we’ve what we’ve accomplished with ClioCon is something I’m incredibly proud of. And what I what I talked about in the opening keynote, was really the fact that, it’s the innovators and the people in that room or that in that community more broadly that we have a ClioCon, that are the ones that are going to be equipped to not just survive, but to thrive in the kind of economic uncertainty that we’re entering. And we’ve seen this group thrive over the course of covid as well, I shared some data in the keynote about just the the huge surge in legal demand we’ve seen and how the people in this community of lawyers have been able to step up and address that demand, and how their firms as a result have thrived in this, in this climate. And what I, you know, when I was sitting back and looking at the data from the Legal Trends Report and thinking about, you know, what are some of the key takeaways for me, that I wanted to articulate in the keynote, and in the Legal Trends Report, it reminded me of this concept I’d read about about 10 years ago, and a book called Anti-fragile by Nassim Nicholas Taleb and what what he talks about in this book is, the notion that we need a term for a system or for people that are the opposite of fragile, people that you know, it’s not just being resilient, you know, and I think this is the key point is like, resiliency is like, okay you, you survived something, you got through it, you’re maybe battered and be down a bit, but you got through it. And what we saw I think with the legal profession as a whole, we saw this in, I think it is the way we felt and it’s what we saw in the data as well is, it was something much more than just resiliency, like the legal profession thrive over the course of the pandemic. And I think what most lawyers would agree, exiting the pandemic is that they are in a better place personally than when they entered the pandemic, if not better work life balance. They’re doing just as much if not more work for their clients and driving just as many if not more good legal outcomes for their clients. We saw the courts which are historically very slow-moving embrace things like Zoom and video technology. So all things considered and against this, this is a against a backdrop of a lot of death and devastation and bad things, we saw an industry that really thrived, and I think in both qualitative and quantitative sense, has emerged from the pandemic stronger and better than when it entered it. And that was what Taleb talks about as anti-fragility, like what’s the opposite of fragile, like, it could have easily been the case that the legal system collapsed. And lawyers stopped being able to do work full stop. And we just exited the pandemic with a huge backlog of legal work, and a lot of lawyers that are unemployed that had failed to navigate this pandemic. And instead we see this incredibly thriving ecosystem. And that is the concept of anti-fragility that in a real sense, and what I’m excited by, and the reason I think this concept was so important to educate lawyers around is really thinking about how can we crystallise some of the learnings over the course of the pandemic and think deliberately about how do we build anti fragile law firms. How can we build law firms that are not just resilient, but able to thrive through these downturns and whatever we’re about to enter, you know, in terms of the the kind of recession or broader, challenging macro environment we’re going to be facing for the next handful of years. There are going to be law firms that emerge from this weaker, and maybe law firms that that go out of business over the course of that time period. But there’s going to be a lot of law firms that come out stronger and better. And this concept of being an anti-fragile law firm, how do you build yourself and evolve into an anti-fragile law firm was, you know, my, my framework for how a law firm can think about being very deliberate about that, and not just letting it be an accident or coin toss in terms of whether they’re 1 of the ones that thrive or suffer over the course of of this, this macro environment. How can they be very deliberate about embracing practices and embracing the mindset and the technologies that will enable them to be anti-fragile.

01:01:58 Rob Hanna:

Yeah. And I have to say, I’ve never heard of the anti-fragile term before, but it was 1 of the best keynotes and everything that you mentioned is really landed with me. I think your keynote on top of the Legal Trends Report are 2 of the greatest things I think I’ve actually listened to throughout the course of this year, and I’m still on a high, I’m still wearing my socks. I’ve got my ClioCon socks.

01:02:11 Jack Newton:

I want some of those of UK ClioCon edition socks. I don’t have a pair yet.

01:02:14 Rob Hanna:

Well, we’ll make it happen. I don’t know why I’m saying we’ll make it happen to the CEO of the show, but hey whatever.

01:02:19 Jack Newton: 

You know someone.

01:02:20 Rob Hanna:

I know someone who knows someone. I’ll speak to someone. So this has been a blast. So if our listeners which I’m sure they will want to want to know more about Clio, the products, what’s the best way for them to find out more? Feel free to shout out on your web link social media, and we’ll also share them with this episode too.

01:02:35 Jack Newton:

Yeah well, first of all thanks for having me Rob, it has been a blast as well, really had a great time here. And it’s great to finally meet you in person and to learn more about Clio. Check out Clio dot com. You can check me out on Twitter at Jack underscore Newton. And between those those 2 resources. That’s where I do most of my talking and where you can find out all you want to know about Clio.

01:03:03 Rob Hanna:

Well, thank you so much once again, it’s been a real pleasure having you on the show. We did it in real life as well. Wishing you and all the Clions lots of continued success the future but for now, over and out.

01:03:14 Rob Hanna:

Thank you for listening to this week’s episode. If you liked the content here, why not check out our world leading content and collaboration hub, the Legally Speaking Club over on Discord. Go to our website www dot Legally Speaking Podcast dot com for the link to join our community there. Over and out.