The Future for Law in the Metaverse – David Turney – S6E12

From being shortlisted for the Rising Star Innovation Award in 2020, to winning Best Fundraising Lawyer in 2021, to now offering meetings in his office in the Metaverse… what can we expect next from the Co-Founder of an up-and-coming boutique law firm embracing the future of tech within the industry?

This week we’re super excited to be chatting to ‘The Cap Lawyer’, David Turney and boy have we managed to cram the juiciest of conversations and info into a 30-minute podcast episode!

David is the Co-Founder and Managing Partner of specialist law firm, Avery Law. He began his career at Allen & Overy, before moving GCM Global Energy PLC and David’s specialisms include, corporate, finance and fundraising in the tech sector.

Aside from this, David is a keen Metaverse enthusiast and often talks about this on his Twitter account. We asked him about his approach to the Metaverse and what this has to offer for law and the industry in the future and it proved to be an interesting topic of conversation…

𝐒𝐨, 𝐰𝐡𝐲 𝐬𝐡𝐨𝐮𝐥𝐝 𝐲𝐨𝐮 𝐛𝐞 𝐥𝐢𝐬𝐭𝐞𝐧𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐢𝐧?

You can catch our Rob Hanna and David talk about:

  • The struggles of getting into law school in present times
  • How to establish a successful law firm and how he did it
  • Important advice to investors and start-ups around the world
  • Fundraising and how this sector involves and integrates technology
  • Why corporate culture is important and how to promote it in your business
  • His interests in the metaverse and why this may be the future for the law industry


00:08 Rob Hanna:

Welcome to the Legally Speaking Podcast. You are now listening to Season 6 of the show. I’m your host Rob Hanna. This week I’m delighted to be joined by David Turney. David is the Co-Founder and Managing Partner of boutique law firm Avery Law. He began his career at Allen & Overy, before moving to GCM Global Energy PLC. David specialises in including corporate finance, fundraising in the legal tech sector, and much more. This has been astonishing because he’s also been awarded best fundraising lawyer by SME Legal Awards 2021 and shortlisted for the Rising Star Innovation Award at the Legal Innovation Awards 2020. So a very, very warm welcome, David.

00:52 David Turney:

Thanks Rob. Thank you for having me.

00:55 Rob Hanna:

Oh, it’s an absolute pleasure. And before we dive into all your amazing projects and experiences to date, we do have a customary icebreaker question here on the Legally Speaking Podcast, which is, on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being very real, what would you rate the hit TV series Suits in terms of its reality?

01:13 David Turney:

Yeah, so I mean, it’s a fantastic show. And it’s funny because my wife and I used to watch this in the early stages of our relationship many, many moons ago. And, you know, that was probably the closest she got to being interested in what I did as a as a as a career. I mean, I have to say, it’s probably somewhere on the lower end, but I’m gonna, I’m gonna play it safe and say 5. Generally, because it’s, it’s how I would like our legal career to sort of move towards, in the fact that it glorifies it somewhat. And then obviously, the fact that it’s just not really real.

01:47 Rob Hanna:

I think you’ve justified the 5 very well. And as I always say, we’ll move swiftly on to talk all about you. So obviously, I gave a very brief snapshot there in the intro, but let’s start at the beginning. Would you mind telling our listeners just a bit about your, your background and journey?

02:01 David Turney:

Yeah, sure. So I mean, just sort of thinking back to sort of early days, childhood and sort of where I came from, you know, I was brought up just outside in the home counties, out in Hertfordshire, you know, growing up in Hertfordshire, probably, you know, with friends, and that you kind of always knew that you would end up in London. I always remember those trips, there’s probably the shopping trips into Oxford Circus with my parents coming in thinking, wow, you know, the city. But always sort of knowing I would end up there 1 way or another. And then I suppose, you know, thinking about how I got into law, you know, not, there’s not really a sort of eureka moment, in that sense. I just, I just remember, a lot of times, I used to sit down with my grandfather, you know, he was he was 1 of those individuals who would snip out things from newspapers and bring them down to me when we saw them. And he brought me this 1 article, and I can’t remember exactly the title, but it I just remember how he was tapping on it, you know, with his finger, and he would say, M&A boy, M&A boy, that’s where you want to be corporate M&A, and sort of dashing this paper at me, I just always remember that. And, you know, it wasn’t that I necessarily wanted to get into corporate law or anything like that, I actually had a huge passion. But school I had a huge passion for not only technology, but actually graphic design. I used to bore you with the stories, I used to build a lot of websites at school and university. But aside from that, I used to do a lot of 3D modelling on computers, you know, designing cars, modelling them out using software, and I just had this real passion for this real hobby of mine and I really wanted to move into that career. But I don’t remember who it was but they just said, that’s, that’s, that’s lovely and it’s lovely that you have a passion for it but why don’t you just do a law degree just in case. So that’s kind of how I got into the law.

03:45 Rob Hanna:

I love that story. And now I didn’t know that you had those previous interests. And I love you, I can just picture your grandfather coming in with that snippet, just sort of pointing saying M&A very much so printed in my mind. But as again, I mentioned in the intro, you’ve had a fabulous career and you started career with with Allen & Overy, A & O, you know, as part of their sort of private equity team. So why did you choose A & O?

04:07 David Turney:

Well, actually, a bit of a misconception about my sort of early years is I actually really struggled. So I struggled to actually get into the law, which is why I’m actually probably trying to disrupt it so keenly. You know, my A-Levels I ended up actually getting BBC in my A levels and 2 of my B’s, I think from memory, we were both of them were like 4 or 4 marks off an A, you know, it was that close to having the equivalent of like, AAB as opposed to BBC, you know, so so when, when, when I went to click in to the training contract applications, it was always do you have 2 As and a B? And I was like, no, and I was like, well, then you can’t apply, you know, and then and then sometimes I would be like, well, let’s just lie and say that I do. And then in the form, say later that the only way I could fill the form was by lying, but actually my results are this and then it was no. So I remember I went through a real period of struggling to, to actually get a training contract and I suppose unconventionally, I still decided to go through law school was great, very grateful to get the backing of my father to actually put me through law school and keep trying. But off the back of that I was lucky enough to land a paralegal role at Allen & Overy, and sort of get ingrained within the organisation, you know, worked worked really that way in the profession. But actually, I, you know, I never trained A & 0, I tried to train at A & O, and was almost promised training by 1 of the corporate partners there, but, you know, as with most of these law firms, I didn’t, I didn’t have the grades so they wouldn’t accept me onto the training contract. So sort of unconventionally I decided, well this is it, I need to get out. So I actually moved away from A & O and rose, went went and found an opportunity, which is, was the next part of my story, where essentially, I found an ex Allen & Overy banking partner, who believed in me, was building a new team in-house, I suppose, due to the fact that I had spent almost 2 years at Allen & Overy supporting the corporate team there, you know, he was keen to bring me over and actually ended up training in-house, believe it or not. There’s, there’s so much so much to say about that and I could, I could obviously spill my experience.

06:13 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, it’d be good to talk about how you found that experience training in-house. And then obviously, as a role, you know, standing on that Legal Counsel, Deputy General Counsel at GCM Global Energy, you know, what your responsibilities were given as a Legal Counsel. Let’s start with the training and then go on to the latter.

06:28 David Turney:

Yeah, exactly. So I think, I think my training route, although it was non-conventional, I’m incredibly grateful for it, you know, when I talk to people nowadays, and and actually, at the time, I probably didn’t realise how good my training was, you know, and you obviously hear about a lot of, you know, juniors in the larger law firm to either get fed up or burn out and just leave the profession entirely. I was the other way around. My training contract fuelled me to do more, and actually created this real entrepreneurial spirit, because my training principles over at the in-house were incredibly entrepreneurial, you know, they were building something out of nothing. Obviously, budgets, you know, restricted budgets, weren’t allowed to use external counsel. So you know, it was hands on, as close as you could possibly get to big law firm training, because lucky for us, lucky for me, because I was lucky, the sort of transactions that I was involved with were very large cross border M&A transactions. So generally the law firms on the other side were Magic, Silver circle, international law firms, you know, very well-known law firms. And I actually remember a lot of my training contract, just sit just sitting in a lot of boardrooms, either in like Clifford Chance, and Norton Rose and Herbert Smith, just listening, just being, you know, on the front lines, with the partners, negotiating these contracts and learning firsthand, you know, because there was, there was only 3 of us in this in-house team. So I had to really be there to sort of understand everything that was going on to then sort of go away and actually work out how to do it with, you know, the 2, the 2 actual senior lawyers on the team. So yeah, incredibly grateful, nonconventional, but, you know, I couldn’t have wished for a better training experience.

08:09 Rob Hanna:

Yeah. And like you say, you’ve taken so many positives from that. And obviously, being in a smaller team, you know, lots of responsibility. And, you know, I think just just touching on that, I believe, you know, in terms of your your general experience, you know, you’ve been advising you’re advising on acquisitions of oil companies, I think, I think my memory, for example, you know, the sale of a $1 billion of oil assets in Azerbaijan. So, you know, how did you feel about those sort of huge deals? And did you ever get the opportunity to travel, to Azerbaijan?

08:35 David Turney:

Yes, to the travelling. So, I mean, it’s funny that because you obviously don’t do much travelling these days do you. When you tell a client, I’m going to charge you to go on a business class flight to, you know, just doesn’t happen, does it? But yes, back in those days, it was very much, especially with the cross-border transactions. So generally, with these cross-border transactions you get holding companies in, you know, all types of jurisdictions offshore, due to the nature of where we worked, there was a lot of Cypriot companies. So generally, you know, when you’re working on these large transactions, you would, I remember 1 wasn’t a summer, but it was a very hot time in Cyprus, I essentially was based there for about 2 months, you know, just and I was basically told I couldn’t come home until the transaction was complete. But it was essentially running around all these corporate service providers trying to get transactions. You know, and when you’re doing deals of that sort of caliber, you know, it’s very hands on and got to sort of drive transactions forwards towards then deadlines. As a trainee, you know, that was fantastic experience, you know, being involved in these deals.

09:40 Rob Hanna:

Yeah and as I say, it’s, it’s incredible. And I think, you know, I would encourage people to, you know, we’re always about that on the show, about, you know, it’s not always about the conventional, you know, the unconventional can sometimes, you know, actually turn out to be the better option for you and clearly, in your sense, because you’ve had all that wonderful experience and then you’ve gone on to be an entrepreneur and business founder. So I mentioned again in the intro, you co-founded Avery Law? I think congratulations of 10 years of Avery Law plus. So what inspired you to co-found the law firm?

10:10 David Turney:

Yeah, I mean, firstly, thank you for the congratulations. It’s not something we do in business, to be honest. But we’ve got to sort of urge everyone to celebrate those milestones, no matter what it is. It’s hard out there at the moment, so we should celebrate. But um, yeah, I mean, interestingly, I set up the firm with my Co-Founder, Bjorn, you know, he was my senior at, and I still treat him as my senior, although we’re very much equitably split down the middle. I was only two years PQE when we filled in the forms for authorisation with the SRA, you know, and I remember them questioning me at the time, what makes you think you’re fit to run a law firm at 2 years PQE. And I was incredibly driven and I explained why and, you know, his passion for what we all this experience that we had built up in-house as a small corporate team without external counsel, what we could bring to the SME market and disrupt, you know, I say, that in 2012, probably needed, disrupting, luckily, has moved on since then. And you know, there’s a lot of disruptive law firms and, and the outlook is really good for the market. But back then, you know, creating a corporate boutique and actually, we were a virtual law firm at the time, which you said the word virtual, everyone looked at you like you’re thinking you’re mad, to try and then go and win a load of corporate business. You know, it was something they didn’t really sort of understand. But from a risk perspective, because of the transaction, transactional nature of corporate work, they saw it as a low risk, you know, in terms of well yeah, they have got all this experience, I see what they’ve been doing. Okay, green light, you know, it’s fantastic feeling to sort of get that green light.

11:48 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s amazing what you have achieved in that period of time. And I just want to sort of go back to what you were saying, because it’s important that we do celebrate those many milestones. I think sometimes, you know, you go in business, and it’s another day, another day, and you’re you’re driving, you’re driving, you’re driving, but actually taking a step back, just to say, wow, you know, we have been doing this for over 10 years, you know, we have been successful, you know, we’ve done this, we’ve done that. And obviously, I’ve been following your firm for some time now. And I know we’ve met at various events. And yeah, I have the utmost respect for what you you’re doing. And I absolutely applaud particularly the passion of sort of disrupting from your own personal journey. And that’s definitely a synergy and something we align with here on the show. So I guess talking to you more in in lawyer mode then because you frequently provide corporate commercial and financing this law advice to investors, start-up, individuals all around the world. So you know, what matters have you you advised on in recent times, is there anything that’s particularly stood out to you that you’d perhaps like to highlight?

12:44 David Turney:

Yes, good question. I don’t know where to start. I mean, I suppose every transaction that we work on is incredibly important. Each and every client is incredibly important. So I can’t really sort of sit here and name a few, but obviously, some, you know, some are more enjoyable than others. And I think generally, I think generally in today’s society, you know, there is a there is a shift that shift towards sort of more impact driven businesses. So we as a firm are trying as part of our sort of our own sustainability goals to sort of encourage more impactful businesses. And we’re sort of building out an impact operator to support those that have businesses that have a focus.

13:23 Rob Hanna:

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14:59 David Turney:

And then you know, thinking about the matters that we specifically advise, I suppose generally we’ve we’ve had a corporate focus, and I moved probably more away from it. Although I still largely advise on M&A activity, I sort of moved towards more of a focus in the venture capital world. You know, when we started in 2012, HMRC our tax authority created the investor relief schemes in the UK. And as a result, we saw this huge drive in the tech shift of the fundraising market. So we got heavily involved with that early on as a small corporate boutique offering that sort of service. But naturally as we grew as a firm, you know, we didn’t want to lose clients, we saw that we need to have a slightly larger offering than just the corporate niche that we do. So that’s when we started to build out more of a hybrid model to Avery Law, where we would bring in expert consultants who are more senior in their field, who we could rely on to actually provide that support service for us, because we obviously didn’t want, the whole point was we’re trying to build a disrupt law firm, we didn’t want to then lose clients, you know, going back to the larger law firm.

16:02 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, no, that makes sense. And you touched on that I wanted to delve a little bit deeper, because you know, you specialise in fundraising in the technology sector. So can you sort of explain what fundraising is please? And maybe how that involves technology?

16:14 David Turney:

Yeah, of course, they’re just in terms of the technology aspects. So, so most companies in the UK, and actually probably globally, the ones that are fundraising are the ones that can get access to funds, probably quicker and easier than others, are those that have a predominantly tech focus, or are tech companies, especially now with the world and the economy, you know, tech is probably seen as, although it’s still incredibly high risk, it’s also quite a safe investment in some respect compared to more, you know, commodity commodity based investments, which who knows what’s going to happen. But yeah, so, so, so fundraising in its basic terms, is, you know, either a cash injection into a company for shares, whether that’s an equity fundraise, or it’s a debt fundraise, which is essentially a loan, which has to be returned later, plus interest. So, so traditionally we will help companies, you know, utilise those those methods of fundraising, help them scale and grow their company towards what’s known as an exit, which is either a share sale, an asset sale, or a listing.

17:15 Rob Hanna:

There we go. Well, thank you so much for sharing that. Yeah. And I think it’s, it’s interesting, isn’t it, particularly as market swings, whether there’s more sort of dept things or more equity things. And yeah, I know, you were talking before we got on the, on the, on the sort of podcast about, you know, market swings and how things evolved. But you mentioned and I mentioned, as well, you’re not just the Co-Founder, you’re also the Managing Partner of Avery Law. So you’re responsible for the management and the culture of the firm. We talk a lot about that in terms of the importance of culture, but what type of culture do you strive to promote for your firm, as you mentioned, you’re looking to disrupt and do things differently.

17:49 David Turney:

Yeah, so I mean, I mean, before covid arrived, obviously covid affected, I suppose the entire market culture, the legal professionals, but before that, you know, we very much encouraged, you know, the flexible arrangement, the way of working, but sort of moving forward from that, you know, it’s not, it’s not necessarily about the flexible arrangement, it’s more a culture of trust, you know, so whether you’re working at home or in the office, it’s more of a trust, a sense of ownership, you know, with our team and making them feeling ingrained. So, I suppose I’m trying to pick all of the really good things about my training experience, and encourage that within my team, and then remove all of the bad stuff that I encourage, like the toxic cultures and the screaming and the shouting, you know, that’s, we don’t have any place for that, you know, very respectful sort of way of working and promoting people to really harness their own skills. And actually, you know, when we, when we delegate, it’s actually not really delegating, you know, in the sense of the word, it’s more, what, you know, I know what your skills are, what can you bring to this transaction, or, you know, actually not even a transaction, when it comes to the management, what do you think about this.

18:58 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, and I love that sort of, you know, it’s a human side, isn’t it? You’re saying, look, we don’t need to have all of the chaos, you know, let’s have the sophisticated, you know, let’s have the good stuff. And, you know, just be a little bit more human about the whole approach. And yeah, I’m just all for that. So, you know, congratulations. I know, under your stewardship, you know, the firm’s doing really well. So, you know, congratulations once again, and I guess sticking with, you know, praise and awards, you were awarded best fundraising lawyer, by the SME Awards, I believe in 2021. And then you’re obviously shortlisted for a Rising Star Innovation Award, the Legal Innovation Awards in 2020. So how do you do it?

19:35 David Turney:

Well, luckily, that 1 wasn’t a nomination. So the best fundraising lawyer was a nomination through some existing clients, which was incredibly grateful for it and it’s, it’s taken that long, you know, that was 9 years in the making of working really hard to gain some form of recognition in the market, you know, and it finally pays off so please keep going everyone you know that it’s like that Kevin Costner film, you know, the Field of Dreams, if you build it, they will come over approach. So, you know, I always encourage people to, you know, if they believe in something, just just continue on that journey, got a vision, go for it. And I’ve always just had a huge passion for technology and helping people, you know, achieve their targets. And you know, as a firm, you know, I don’t, when I come to, when it comes to fundraising, we don’t just provide the legal advice. You know, people talk about a holistic approach to legal services. I mean, that’s generally 1 thing I do preach. And it’s 1 thing, you know, we do quite well, where we actually introduce people, no introduction phase, you know, it’s not that type of culture, but we will introduce people to the right investors, or the right tech team, the right founders, whoever they need to be in touch with to help them on that journey.

20:41 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, no, and it’s such a great point, as well and I also just want to sort of reflect on what you said there when it came to the award. You know, for me it’s another example of you know, an overnight success story, not, you know, it takes time, you know, it takes dedication, and like you rightly said, you know, if you do have that vision, or you are planning on building something, you know, stick with it, because people are watching and you never know, you know, the only way it won’t happen is if you give up, so, yeah, really good advice and really appreciate you sharing that and just giving a bit of extra context. So that like me, I know we’re sort of might get a little bit techie here, but you are also a Web3 Metaverse enthusiast, and you post regularly about it on socials Twitter, I think earlier in 2022, you announced Avery Law is now available for meetings in your office in the Metaverse, which is cool. So tell us a little bit more about that.

21:31 David Turney:

Yeah, I remember that was quite controversial that 1. The market was up and down with comments. You know, have you thought about data protection? No. I mean, for us, it’s and I suppose this mirrors the way our clients work. So, so, you know, you’ll see and you’ll hear traditionally that tech start-ups and scale-ups they pivot, right, they’ll they’ll come on to a roadblock or funding will run dry, they’ll need to pivot their business and model. Avery Law has always pivoted, we’ve always we’ve always gone okay, this is not quite working, where can we move, because we’ve not got huge cogs, you know, committees, we don’t have that. So we’re able to sort of agilely move around. So, you know, and I talk, I’ve talked about this in some of the events where I’ve talked about the innovation train, you know, in the legal industry, and the Metaverse and Web3, Web3 is here, the Metaverse is, is here, it’s been around for years, you know, you read it has been here for 10, 20 years already, but it’s only gonna get more and more, I suppose prominent, and, and you can choose to sort of bury your head or say no, no, is just not good. It doesn’t really matter. Or you can choose to embrace and get on the innovation train and essentially choose to pivot. And yes, there are risks. There are risks, you know, with everything in business, but you know, on the assumption that our clients are comfortable, and they know the risks, we advise them of the risks, then why should we not? So we’ve always been a big believer in in, you know, unifying the journey for the client being more client centric. Well, if the client wants to meet the Metaverse, why would we not entertain?

23:04 Rob Hanna:

Exactly and I just love your your mindset. And I’ve been there since I’ve delved into this Web3 community, you know, I’ve got to meet amazing people that are doing things and people in the US, you know who their law firms are holding meetings in the Metaverse, in conferences, because it’s absolutely the here, the now and where things are going. And, you know, there’s a risk in not taking a risk, you know, and I think there’s 1 of the great quotes, I think, somebody I follow, 1 of my mentors, you know, if you don’t risk anything, you risk everything. And so yes, of course, it has to be your risk tolerance with these things. But you can’t go through particularly for somebody like yourself, whose not only a lawyer, but running a business, you have to be prepared to take, you know, some some elements of risk to be relevant and also fit for purpose and perhaps even to capture on some early mover advantage, which I definitely think you know, Avery Law when you were talking about that way back when has done so and I guess that leads to you know, we continually do need to look forward, we continually do need to think about the future. So you know, what future plans do you have for Avery Law in the real world and indeed the Metaverse?

24:02 David Turney:

That’s a very good question. It’s a bit like it’s a bit like when you when you’re filling in the forms for SRA authorisation, and they want your 5-year business plan and your cash flow forecasts. It’s like, well, who knows what’s going to happen in 5-years time. But um, and I think the way the way the industry is going, yes, obviously, we need to plan financially. Yes, you know, we have team, we have overheads, you know, we, there are all these things that we need to do. But other than that, for us, it’s, it’s, you know, it’s building something that’s always going to remain fun. You know, we don’t, we don’t want to be in business, just for being in business. We want to enjoy what we’re doing as a team. And if we’re not enjoying it, why are we in business? So, you know, in terms of the outlook, you know, it for us is, yes, we have visions to grow, but actually, we don’t want to grow to such extent that we just become 1 of the more traditional law firms and I think that’s probably where we are on the growth journey. And, and there’s that, there’s that point, as a firm where you think, you know, we need to go 1 way or the other, and that’s, that’s a sort of goes back to my pivot point. And I feel like we’re at Avery Law are at a pivot point. But you know, there’s some really interesting things in the market now with what you do in the legal profession. And, you know, we’ve thought about, you know, and we probably will already have, you know, launched accelerators, and sort of associated, you know, finance houses that would support what we’re doing as a business for the purpose of our clients.

25:34 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, I’d love how you’re thinking there as well. And it’s a really good point about fun, because I was always taught by 1 of my mentors, you know, when the fun stops, stop, you know, we’ve got to, you know, you’ve got to enjoy what you do. That’s not to say that, you know, every day, he’s gonna be a great day, because that’s just not the reality of life. But and also, when people talk about future plans, you know, typically like, you know, people always thinking about well, is that a number of people you’re going to grow to, or revenue you’re going to get to, not necessarily, you know, it’s what’s important to you, and what’s going to retain that funds. So you know, equally with us, with our, you know, KC Partners, our sort of sister company, in terms of, you know, Legally Speaking Podcast, it’s something new, it’s something exciting, are sort of pursuits, we’re taking our journey Web2 to Web3, learning new things, and conferencing, new technologies, that’s still growth in itself. And it’s exciting. It’s not necessarily detected to okay, we’ve put another 50 people in, in seats. So when everyone and I think that’s a really important point to make that you know, don’t be, when people ask you about future plans, it doesn’t necessarily have to be purely related to cash and bums on seats. I think, of course, if their metrics are important to you, great, but it could be your own internal growth, it could be understanding and learning new things and other things that would come about it, because I think that puts unnecessary stress and pressure on you that ultimately having the right people around, you can support you to do that. So I just wanted to say thank you for highlighting that. And also just re-stressed that point. And I guess before we look to wrap up, David, finally, what advice would you give to lawyers or those in the legal profession, wanting to specialise in let’s say, finance, or corporate or particularly interested in getting up to speed with the latest technologies, because things are moving at a pace now?

27:07 David Turney:

Well, I mean, in terms of getting up to speed, I mean, there’s so many great free resources online, I mean, LinkedIn is obviously a fantastic information platform, Twitter, to be honest, until, until who knows what happens with whether they need to monetise there app subscriptions, but until such time, you know, Twitter lists, and you can get so much good information online. And actually, to be fair, I do, you know, I get a lot of firsthand, almost live information from from online platforms, you know, and it keeps me really ingrained within what’s going on in the market. So, you know, for sort of aspiring, you know, lawyers, obviously, you know, it’s great to have an interest. Yes, getting into the profession is, of course, difficult it still is, although it feels like I’ve been in it long time. So maybe I’m a little bit out of the loop now. But you know, just don’t give up, just keep trying, you know, I think remaining driven and if you are driven as an individual and you know, don’t, don’t just get given things on a plate, you know, you will succeed because, you know, that’s what and especially the way the SRA is encouraging alternative law firms to now pop up, you know, entrepreneurism is really encouraged in the legal and actually, I personally feel that, you know, clients do prefer that more commercial minded, you know, you said it Rob, human lawyer approach, yes, you’ve got to be a good lawyer, but we’re all good lawyers. But, you know, do you have the empathy? Do you, you know, can you actually talk on a more humane level with people?

28:36 Rob Hanna:

And that’s the secret sauce, you know, that’s the 1 percent that will perhaps when you that trust with the client, not only being able to put the docs together but telling them you know, what’s in the docs in very simple language or you know, if they have got things going on that struggles outside of what’s being involved, you’re being empathetic as a you know, a commercial but business advisor as well as the lawyer and I think that’s something obviously you do so well yourself, and Avery Law as a firm. And I guess then before we close, I’m sure our listeners will be interested to learn more. So you know, if they do want to learn more about Avery law, what’s the best way for them to contact you, feel free also shout out any social media or website links where they can access information, and we’ll also share them with this episode for you too, as well.

29:17 David Turney:

Yeah, so, so, I mean, I probably you know, I should probably mention there is, you know, for any aspiring lawyers, I’m running a sort of small guild group called the legal pioneers you know, it’s a sort of get involved type group, ask any questions for anyone, but if you specifically wanted to sort of reach out to me you know, I’ve done some mentoring in the past and I will always support mentoring given the way I got into the profession. People can find me I’m actually called The Cap Lawyer on LinkedIn, you don’t need to search me by name you can just search The Cap Lawyer but a funny story there but my cap, I’ll save that for another time but but otherwise yet so you know, you can find out all about us at Avery Law you know, Avery dot Law, but you know feel free, my door is always open, I always have a lot of time for collaboration in the market. It’s actually 1 of the more enjoyable parts of what I do, you know, running a firm when I get to collaborate with other firm owners, other lawyers, offer guidance, you know, it’s just, it’s a really pleasurable part.

30:15 Rob Hanna:

It’s such a great way to to end because it’s a really good piece of wisdom, because we’ve all heard collaboration over competition. But you know, I was recently told and I think this resonates even more collaboration is domination, you know? And if you think about that more deeply, it absolutely is. And you know, I’m a big advocate of that, and I know you are as well, David. So I just want to say thank you so much for coming on the show. It’s been a real pleasure having you, learning more about your journey, what you’ve been up to, so we’d like to wish you lots of continued success with Avery Law, your future career and future pursuits. But from now from all of us on the show, over and out. Thank you for listening to this week’s episode. If you liked the content here, why not check out our world leading content and collaboration hub, the Legally Speaking Club over on Discord goes to our website www dot Legally Speaking Podcast dot com for the link to join our community there. Over and out.

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