Imagine spending nearly a decade in big law and never losing a case.

This week, I’m joined by Emma Mack, a leading disputes lawyer and former senior associate at the magic circle. Emma shares what it takes to win high-stakes litigation, how AI is changing the future of disputes and why she’s using LinkedIn to change the conversation around law.

If you want insights from one of the best in the industry, this episode is unmissable. Go give it a listen now and hear about her journey and winning mindset.

So why should you be listening in? 

You can hear Rob and Emma discussing:

– Emma’s Extensive Background and Career Journey

– Her Experience in Commercial Litigation and Dispute Resolution

– What the Role of a Senior Associate Entails

– Technology, AI and Their Broad Impacts on the Legal Industry

– The Future of Legal Tech and How it Integrates into Commercial Litigation

Connect with Emma here – https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-mack-297170114/?originalSubdomain=uk

Transcript

Robert Hanna  0:00  

So, very big welcome to the show, Emma. 

Emma Mack  0:04  

Thank you very much. Thank you for inviting me on the show. I’m conscious I’m sitting alongside some very impressive previous guests. So thank you for giving me a seat at the table.

Robert Hanna  0:11  

Oh, it’s our absolute pleasure. And before we dive into all the amazing work you have done for the legal industry, and no doubt, will continue to do so, we do have a customary icebreaker question here on the league as being podcast, which is on a scale of one to 1010, being very real, what would you rate the hit TV series suits in terms of its reality of the law if you’ve seen it?

Emma Mack  0:32  

Okay, so this is where I have to admit that I haven’t seen it. But I’m going to turn the question around and ask you, what do you think the answer is?

Robert Hanna  0:39  

That’s a very good way to lawyer on me. I’ve sort of said in previous shows, I sort of sit between a sort of five and six. I think there are some some elements of it that could potentially be realistic, but a large part of it is show showbiz. That’s kind of where I sit. So with that

Emma Mack  0:58  

reality, yeah, I think

Robert Hanna  1:00  

some of the some of the nice suits, some of the offices, I think the actual lawyering part is very off the mark. So I think that’s one of the lawyers that have been on and given it a rating of sort of one or zero. I think there’s some valid this on that, where Harvey can sort of be a corporate lawyer one minute, then he’s in court, then he’s a litigator, then he’s doing these closing deals in seconds. I think all of that is probably a little bit far stretch, but I love the show. I love the entertaining factor, and I love how you managed to make me answer to that question. One of first guests to do that. So well done. Very good lawyering skills. So let’s get back to you, though. So to begin with, would you mind telling our listeners about a bit about your background and career journey?

Emma Mack  1:38  

Yep, so I thought it’d be interesting to start with my parents and grandparents and the role education played, but I’m conscious that’s going quite far back, so obviously, do just cut in if you feel like I’m going off topic at some point. So I am from Birmingham, born and raised, which is where my parents moved in the 80s for work and had me. And my dad’s side of the family is from the East End of London. They had a corner shop in Bethany, Bethnal Green. And my mum’s side of the family is from Yorkshire. My dad went to uni, but I don’t think my mum did. I think she went to art college and then taught textiles at a local Polytechnic. And my grandma, who I’ve written about fairly extensively on LinkedIn, was born in 1914 and really saw that first cusp of women staying in education for longer and getting careers and all of the big questions around whether you can stay in work once you’re married and or have children. But that’s kind of in a nutshell, education is really transformative in terms of my family’s history and also really informed my childhood. And so that kind of takes me into school, which is, I wasn’t necessarily that stellar at school. Initially, I have written a little bit about having dyslexia in my earlier years and being taken out of the classroom for special classes. But then, sort of as time went on, my grades were kind of improving, and by the time I got to the end of secondary school, I was looking at studying Italian Language and Literature at Oxford University, which was a tough degree, but I enjoyed it a lot, and came out with a double first, and went on to do an Italian masters. And I think that that’s a kind of an interesting point in which to break, because that was 2010 2011 which is post financial crisis, and I was seeing a lot of my friends who had done three year degrees be in the sort of job market with a solid degree in a STEM subject, and there was this huge bottleneck, because you had kind of a few years of graduates coming out of uni and not getting into the workplace. So I was watching all of that going, dear Lord. And then there was also the fact that the government of the day was slashing funding and further education, so the arts and humanities were taking the bigger hit of that slash funding. And PhD wasn’t necessarily looking like the most bright future that one could go through. So I think it was really at that point that I started investigating careers fairs, and obviously it’s quite a well trodden path from humanities into law. No one in my family is a lawyer, though, so it’s not as if it kind of came from home or anything like that. And I did all of the traditional stuff that people do when they’re thinking about a law conversion. So lots of applications for vacation schemes, lots and lots of rejections. I got rejected from every single law firm I applied to but one, and that was Clifford chance, and I attended a winter workshop that they put on for post grads from a non law background in winter of I want to say, Yeah, 2011 maybe something that those. Lines, and that was really invaluable, that for me, was the turning point, and I think it is for so many people, about then being able to speak quite cogently at interview about your understanding of what a training contract involves, and therefore securing a training contract job offer. So, you know, just fast forwarding over the usual stuff. Went back to you need to do a law conversion and the LPC in order to specialize into being a solicitor. And I did my two year training contract at CC, choosing to qualify into litigation and dispute resolution, where I went on to practice for nine years. And as you know, I left the firm recently. At the moment, I’m at a bit of a careers crossroads, thinking about next steps, but that’s sort of my career journey to dat e.

Robert Hanna  5:48  

Yeah, and thank you for sharing that. And I’m a big advocate, actually, for you know, starting at the beginning, I talk a lot about my late grandfather, who ran his own law firm, and that was an inspiration for why I wanted to kind of continue doing work in this space and leave a legacy in league. And I love that you talk about your grandma, you write about her, and that sort of inspiration. And then some of those family values. And a fellow Midlands, I’m a Leicester man, so Birmingham, Leicester, miles away, but you had a fantastic, you know, time, and you did some great work at CC. You mentioned there, obviously specializing in cross commercial disputes, litigation, arbitration, mediation, you know, a whole host of different pieces of work. Just tell us a bit about that. As much as you would, you would like to in terms of some of those areas and and any tips, maybe people thinking about getting experience in those areas that you think would be helpful.

Emma Mack  6:33  

Yep. So I say my client base was principally corporates or individuals within corporate organizations. And the way I think of corporates, in a very kind of broad sense, is a non financial institution. So I sort of divide the world up into that sort of lens. And the reason why they would come to a firm like click the chance is because of high risk or bet the business disputes that they need advice or representation on. And as you say, those those disputes could be in the courts, they could be in arbitration, they could be in expert determination, and the forum really depends on the relevant contract that underpins the legal relationship between the parties. So the first thing that we would do would look at the governing law and the jurisdiction clause to see, you know, where are we talking about here? And then we’d really be acting for them with a view to try and resolve the dispute, whether that’s through settlement, kind of commercial outcome, or whether it’s sort of going to the very end of a dispute and getting, getting the outcome that you are hoping for, really, so kinds of disputes that we’re talking about, and I’m going to talk about these in a slightly sort of layman layman’s terms, because that’s part of how I think about them, and I think it makes it more digestible. Is one aspect of that is what I call business divorce. So you have business partners who fall out and they no longer want to work together, they no longer want to run or own the business together, but they’ve not been able to amicably, work out how they’re going to do that. And so they bring in lawyers to try and work out, how is this all going to get carved up, I guess, a bit like with a divorce. And so that’s some of the work that I would do. Would be for, say, one owner of a joint venture. And one of my cases on that was a Blackpool Football Club case where there were two owners who were looking to separate and we were seeking a buyout order, essentially from the court for a certain sum of money. Another kind of case that I came up against a few times were completion account disputes, and that’s a kind of growing area at the moment where buyers and sellers wrangle over the price they’ve paid for an acquisition of a target company or that they’re due to pay. So you’d be looking at the completion account disputes in the SBA. The SBA being the share purchase agreement that kind of governs the value, how it gets quantified, and what kinds of things are legitimate to raise for triggering that dispute. And I also do quite a lot of aviation disputes where it’s about breach of contract around non payment of rent for the aircraft. I could keep going. I don’t know how much more it’s helpful to hear about those things, but I think, I

Robert Hanna  9:20  

I think it’s super helpful. And I love I think it’s the breadth as well of interesting work. And, you know, obviously I’m based up in a wild coast now it’s when you’re talking about Blackpool and in clubs here, that’s another million miles away from me. And I think that’s what’s exciting, isn’t it, in terms of maybe going to the larger firms, you know, that kind of exciting variation, interesting cases, high quality work that you’ve clearly had access to and made a huge part. And I guess that lends nicely into you know, you rose very well. You did exceptionally well at CC. So let’s talk about life as a sort of senior associate. Would you mind telling us what a typical day would look like for you at CC as an essay, and perhaps how that differs from being an associate? Yeah. Right?

Emma Mack  10:01  

So I think the thing that underpins all of the roles is a huge amount of triage and a lot of emails. And then I think you’re constantly moving between monitoring your inbox and the kinds of things that are coming in and doing deeper dives, so reading and analyzing contracts or joining a substantial with a client or a barrister to discuss developments on the case, things that changed, factually, things that have changed, perhaps in the case law, and really kind of honing strategy, because cases often last for kind of two or three years. I would say that’s the average for the lifetime of a case that’s going to go to full trial. It can be longer than that. And so you can imagine that there is an ever evolving picture, and often parties are still in negotiation, right? So they’re still in touch, and they’re still, you know, liaising with each other, so it’s constantly changing, and you’re also drafting pleadings. So there’s this whole kind of process behind a court process around you start off with pleadings, and then you have evidence, whether that’s witness evidence or expert evidence, and you have disclosure processes where each party has to send across to the other information that’s relevant to the case. And then you sort of have skeleton arguments, which is the pure, I guess, nutshell of what each side’s case is, and the trial that is sort of generally the sort of four, five step process that takes place over those two to three years. And so you have all of the review of those documents, the correspondence, and you’re emailing clients with those updates, or with those documents for their sign off, for their comment and, yeah, all of the things that go into that. So you’re constantly checking in with a court on the state of applications, or you’re settling the papers that the judge and the barrister will be relying on. And you attend court. So I’d say a lot of it is advisory and drafting its strategy, and I guess kind of how best to constantly place yourself in a sort of changing factual scene, in terms of the difference between senior associate and junior associate. It can look quite different, but it doesn’t necessarily have to, and it’s very specific to each person. So I know plenty of senior associates who haven’t had a lot of exposure to court, because that’s just the way the cookie crumbled on their cases. I’ve had loads of experience, which I feel very lucky to have had, because court is electric, but that is kind of sheer luck in a way. And I think perhaps Junior associates tend to do more of the first cut of material. So you might be doing that as a senior associate, particularly where it’s more complex, you might be doing the first cut, but a lot of it might be more review and then tweaking, improving spotting gaps or ambiguities of how to make it as strong as possible any kind of written document that you’re putting forward. I think those are probably the main points I’d want to hit on what a daily life looks like.

Robert Hanna  13:19  

Yeah, and I think, you know, you gave a really good, good example there of kind of the process almost end to end, and like you say, in terms of how it differentiates or may not differentiate. So thanks for that. One thing you did say, lots of emails, right? And so we’re in this technological revolution, you know, I believe maybe email might be dead one day, or, in some respects, maybe more so in 2025 so I’m kind of a little bit verbose about that, but let’s talk. Let’s talk about technological advancements with technology absolutely affecting the legal industry. And you know, we’re proudly sponsored by Clio, the world’s largest legal tech organization. Last year, they did a huge raise of 900 million and doing some really exciting work in this space, but particularly in AI. How do you think innovations like AI might impact the future of commercial litigation and dispute resolution. I’m quite specific on that, because a lot of people are focused on transactional and saying how transactional law and AI is a lot easier to implement. So I’d love to get your take on it from a more litigious, contentious point of view.

Emma Mack  14:16  

Definitely. So it’s already being adopted and has been adopted, and I can only see it being more exponentially important as time goes on. I think one of the first of three key things is really its ability to streamline and automate some aspects of litigation that are incredibly time consuming and also costly. So document review and disclosure is big one. And as you said, with the exponential explosion of email in the working world, document reviews, probably back in the day, used to look like 1000 documents that you’d look at. Now you’re looking at one to 10 million trying to get through that in terms of man hours, is intense and it. It’s, yeah, you need big teams and a lot of people. So I can see a world in which AI could really transform that process, I think, on Secondly, it can help things like predicting outcomes. So the English legal system is based on precedent, and one of the things that I think distinguishes magic circle law firms from others, is the ability to understand the universe in which you are acting and working the previous decisions that have come about, and therefore predict, going forward, the likely outcome of a case that you’ve been presented with, so that you can accurately advise your client, is this the case to fight? Is this a case that you need to try and settle and really to kind of hone what your advice is around the merits of a case, and I can see AI just becoming so good at being able to take all of that world of information and synthesize it to make more accurate predictions and perhaps also then inform better strategic decisions around whether what the strongest arguments will be, or particular polls, and basically whether you want to settle or whether you want to bring the claim or fight the claim.

Robert Hanna  16:16  

Yeah and I love that you use the word strategic there, because I talk a lot about, you know, AI coming in, removing and automating, you know, a lot of laborious, you know, being able to really, kind of, like, say, 10 million documents, as I had a pick of a lot of documents, but this frees up time to use that strategic thinking. And that’s where I still think the human, the human side, is so, so important in the law. I think that’s super powerful. I think lawyers can be even better advisors, Council, consultants, experts, to their clients. And I think it’s an exciting time. I think firms just need to get on board with the fact that the puck is going in that direction. It’s never going to come back. So, you know, rivers flow forwards, never backwards. And I think that approach needs to be had by all law firms. I think they’ll find it very tricky in 2025 to be competitive. I want to talk about LinkedIn because, you know, I’ve been following your journey. I think it’s great what you’ve been doing in terms of putting yourself out there and posting and sharing a good blend of content. But one of your LinkedIn posts highlights, why posting on LinkedIn if you’re in the legal industry? So for example, what have been the benefits of sharing your journey online, specifically, and what impact have you seen from being very open with the legal community? Because I, for one, encourage it.

Emma Mack  17:28  

Yeah, I think it’s quite unusual the way that I write, in a way, because quite a lot of the standard form of lawyers writing on LinkedIn is to typically put out some kind of legal development, market development, whether it’s introduction of legislation, something that’s coming down the track, and I can totally see why people do that, which is they’re trying to position themselves as expert and really highlight their expertise as a way of starting a conversation with a client who may go on to this may impact them. But I think that there’s a huge element of client relationships which is based on people, and people want to know people, and they want to be able to get along with a person they’re working with. If I think about what I just said about the life cycle of a case lasting two or three years on average, that’s quite a long time to be dealing almost daily with a litigator, so you’d hope that you would get along in that time. And so I think I saw an angle in which you can share, perhaps a bit more about what the job looks like, or who am I? What do we bring to the table? What do people like me look like? And also, to some degree, talk to peers or aspiring lawyers about experiences that I think are universal, even if the example that I’ve provided is quite specific to me. And I think that’s one of the things I’ve been really surprised by, is just how many people take the time to message me, sort of saying hello and and sort of saying, Thank you. This really resonates. People don’t talk about this stuff, but it’s really important, and actually is the overriding experience that they’ve had of their time in private practice. And so kind of going from there, which I think is nice in and of itself, but if you want to treat LinkedIn as a sort of marketing, business development platform, there’s nothing I think, that compares to LinkedIn in terms of impact and reach. So there are certainly clients and potential clients on that, whether that’s currently that they are a client or a potential client, but also in future. So the very people who are currently my peers may well be going into in house roles in the next five and be choosing who they want to instruct. I think it also has allowed me quite a lot of opportunities, so whether that’s things like this podcast to speaking at an event conference, or being invited by others to attend. And conferences to being approached with mandates for work and also job opportunities. So there’s the sort of opportunity side of it, and the stuff that for me, I think is really important is, is finding your people. It’s been so affirming to meet so many people who are welcoming and friendly and collaborative, and it was a sort of unexpected boon to realize just how kind the world can be really.

Robert Hanna  20:29  

Everything you just said, plus one, it’s what I’ve been trying to preach for many, many years. As you know, probably somebody quite early to this. And you know, I always say collaboration is domination, but ultimately, you’re building a personal brand, right? And people are craving human connection, and you’re daring to put yourself out there, you’re daring to share, and you’re connecting with people, and like you say, you’re building your tribe, and as a result of that, and this is why I’ve, you know, I’ve advised LinkedIn help them on product rollouts. I’ve got some LinkedIn learning courses coming out for people on personal branding, how to use the platform. Been on the platform for a long time because it is the world’s largest professional networking site, no doubt, but it also is humanizing in itself and encouraging content creation, collaboration, sharing, storytelling. And I think you’re doing a wonderful job. And like you say, you reference all of the wonderful benefits that come from it, but you start from a place of value. You know you’re sharing your story. You’re sharing things that go to help and inspire people. Hence people are reaching out to you. And yeah, absolutely great opportunities come about. And you mentioned, obviously the podcast. Very kind of you, and we’re delighted to have you on, and that’s why we want to have the discussion today. But I know you’ve spoken events as well, and recently attended, I think, the hashtag legal LinkedIn influencer event at Brown Jacobson. So you spoke on a panel alongside a previous guest, we’ve had Jen Shipley, who’s obviously doing fantastically well on the platform and others in the profession. So you shared your general perspective on linkedin’s increasing role in the legal industry. Specifically, do you want to talk more to any of those points, or to maybe encourage lawyers that might still be sat on the fence when it comes to LinkedIn?

Emma Mack  21:59  

Sure I mean, so Simon Marshall, who ran that particular conference, asked us to think about a couple of relatively high level questions, and it was very informal Q and A, in which the audience was asked to feel free to chip in or to kind of ask us to focus in on certain things if they found it interesting. So we sort of broadly, was speaking about the benefits of being active on LinkedIn, and I think one of the big things is converting it into real life relationships, because I think that’s where true value lies in in business, but also in life and in career, and also ultimately saying to people, if you don’t enjoy it, you don’t have to do it. There are so many ways to network, it’s just, it’s another string to the bow that’s out there of how you can build connection. And then we also discuss things like the challenges you might face on LinkedIn, as well as the solutions, whether that’s things like, I think, getting quite sucked into the algorithm, people can feel quite slavish towards it, whereas it really should just be enjoyable. So if you feel like you’re starting to get drawn into that way of thinking about posting, it’s taking that step back and going, is this still fun? And ultimately, not beating yourself up about not being Pitch Perfect, because none of the stuff that goes on that platform is really life changing. I think we need a bit of perspective when it comes to social media, it’ll be water under the bridge in no time, and you can edit and delete if you really have to. So it’s really trying to kind of make those pressures that you might feel or your anxieties and concerns just a little bit more in perspective. I think.

Robert Hanna  23:37  

Yeah and I remember when I collaborated with Gary V which a lot of people will know, you know, you know, he always says, just post what you care about. And I always say, it’s personal brand, not perfect brand, right? No one’s looking for the perfect brand. If there’s a typo and you’re a lawyer, it’s not going to be the end of the world. You know, you can, like you say, you can edit it, whatever it might be. I know some people will be kind of frozen at that, but the reality is, we need to move away from this kind of the world is perfect. Everyone is perfect, and the world is craving human connection. So the more that you share your stories, maybe some of those lessons learned, adventures, some of the struggles, some of the highs, some of those. I think that’s really important. And I always go a step further say, I think you almost owe it to others to share. I think not sharing is if I can kind of encourage people. I would say not sharing is being selfish. So I feel like if you’ve been in a place where you feel actually, you’ve got some stories which everyone has stories, then you’re going to help, and maybe able to kind of help the next generation, or maybe peers alongside you, or even people who are ahead of you, who are trying to understand how people feel. I think it’s super impactful. And love it. Love it. Emma, in terms of what you’re, you’re doing, and all these sort of things and tips you’re you’re sharing, and I guess that lends nicely to advice for aspiring solicitors. What advice would you give to those who are looking to particularly specialize in the world of disputes?

Emma Mack  24:52  

So I was having a think about this, and if there’s only one top tip that I could give, and obviously I’m very biased, because I think the courts are very exciting, and. Um, yeah, the courts are free, and they’re public. They’re open to the public. Um, I used to lead training contract interviews whilst I was still working at the firm, and I have yet to hear a candidate say that they popped themselves down to court, sat in the public gallery and listen to what happened. But anyone can do it, um, and it gives you a real sense of what disputes look like, the execution of a dispute, day to day, and whether you have a sense of finding it exciting or not. So I feel that would be something that could really make someone stand out, and it’s something that there isn’t an application process or a barrier to entry, anyone can go along and do that. So I really like that as an idea for someone who thinks they might be interested in that area, to just almost demonstrate their interest, and that they’ve taken that next step and they’ve been curious or cautious and acted on it.

Robert Hanna  25:56  

I love that, and it’s a really practical tip, and yeah, equally, then they can go and share their experiences on LinkedIn and start building a brand from from on that, you know? And it’s gives them give some content, but like you said, they also see the job in action, right? And I think that’s really, really good. And we love practical, tactical tips and advice. And I guess one, one question that might you weren’t expecting, but I wanted to ask you, and I’m going to ask a lot more of our guests this year, what’s one skill in your toolbox that you would never want to lose. That makes you a great lawyer. You could only keep one skill. What would be the number one skill?

Emma Mack  26:28  

Ask questions. I think being curious is I don’t know a very transferable skill, ultimately, and not necessarily specific to law. But I think you have to have a learning mindset. We were talking about how there’s a huge breadth to the work that I did, and they’re big cases that were considered better business cases. You have to get your head around and get to grips with something that is for someone else you know going to affect their baby, their business, and that you need to quite quickly understand the complexity of it. And so I think coming with those questions and having an open mind and doing the deep dive is is really invaluable, but also just the way I like working. So that’s that’s one of the skills, I think.

Robert Hanna  27:15  

again, I love how you share that. Thinks back to when I first started my recruitment journey, even before the world of Senate, wearing illegal recruiting business. First ever training session was the ability to ask good, open ended questions, and fact, find and be a really good question asker, because then the better the information you get, the better the advice, and the better the way that you can influence whatever it might be. So I love that. So thank you for for sort of re highlighting that to our listeners, if our listeners, which I’m sure they will want to know more about your career, your journey, or what you might be getting up to. Where can they find out more? Feel free shout out any social media handles, any websites. We’ll also make sure we include them in this episode for you too.

Emma Mack  27:53  

So I only currently have LinkedIn, but who knows, maybe I will have my own website in due course. I haven’t yet worked it out. But yeah, do check out the back catalog of things I’ve been posting about. I tried not to be too repetitive, so it’s worth kind of having a troll and seeing what I might have shared in the past, and I might keep going with it and see what more I can keep on sharing. So yeah, watch this space

Robert Hanna  28:18  

Absolutely. Well, we encourage you to do that for sure. I just leads me to say, thank you ever so much, Emma. It’s been a real pleasure having on the show learning more about your journey and what your inspirations were, and all the great stuff that you’ve been doing ever since. And we’re wishing you lots of continued success with your future career and indeed, pursuits. But from now, from all of us on the legacy podcast sponsored by Clio, over and out.