How do you balance high-stakes litigation with cutting-edge innovation? This week, I’m joined by Jon Gregson, Employment Law Partner at Weightmans LLP and Product and Innovation Partner.

Jon shares insights from his career, including leading complex tribunal cases, working with high-profile clients like Royal Mail Group and developing award-nominated legal tech tools. If you’re curious about the future of Employment Law and how tech is transforming this space, this episode is a must.

Tune in now to hear Jon’s expert take now.

So why should you be listening in? 

You can hear Rob and Jon discussing:

– Jon’s Career Journey Transforming from Trainee to Partner in Employment Law & Product Innovation

– The Focus on Solving Client Problems Through Innovation in Legal Services

– Employment Law and the Specialistions it Requires

– Personal Branding on LinkedIn and How to Make the Most of It

– The Future of Employment Law and the Legal Tech in Common Use Alongside It

Connect with Jon here – https://uk.linkedin.com/in/jongregson

Transcript

Jon Gregson  0:00  

We understand clients, we can join those dots up and make sure that the right people in the room at the right time. I’ve always made sure that different stages through my career, I’ll get involved in doing different things. So whether that’s working with clients, whether that’s working with maybe some of the early careers team, it’s doing different things that you then find, not only a foundation and a pathway through the firm and your own career, you then find the bits that you’re actually quite good at yourself. It’s not really a client. It’s much, much more than that. It’s a deeper relationship with that. The people you work with, you class them as friends. I wouldn’t swap that out on today’s

 

Robert Hanna  0:30  

legally speaking Podcast. I’m delighted to be joined by Jon Gregson. Jon is a partner in the employment, pensions and immigration team at Weightmans LLP. He specialises in high value, complex respondent tribunal litigation. Jon has experience as an employment tribunal advocate, undertaking advocacy at employment tribunals and employment appeal tribunals. He has a product and innovation partner role, assisting corporate clients, developing market, leading solutions for clients and legal teams. He is also a member of the Employment Lawyers Association. So a very big, warm welcome to the show. Jon,

 

Jon Gregson  1:04  

thanks, Rob, great to have him here. Oh, it’s absolutely

 

Robert Hanna  1:07  

pleasure to have you on the show. Before we dive into all the amazing work you are doing, we do have a customary icebreaker question here on the Leavey spoon podcast, which is on the scale of one to 1010, being very real, what would you rate the hit TV series suits in terms of its reality of the law? If you’ve seen it, okay?

 

Jon Gregson  1:27  

I have seen it, which is a good start, I guess. So I would probably say maybe about a four or a five. I guess it’s not as flash. We’re not sat in, you know, lovely corner offices. We’re certainly not all as good looking as you will find in in suits. There’s no doubt in this firm, plenty of people who think they are very Harvey Spector, like, probably much more Lewis lit, like in reality, there are elements of it, of course, aren’t there that are relatable? What I would probably say, if there is one single person that watches that and thinks that interests me, that turns me on to where the law could be for me, it’s got to be worth it for that alone, hasn’t it? So probably a four or five. But if it gets you interested, you take it for that,

 

Robert Hanna  2:14  

nothing else. Great answer, and we’ll go with that. And with that, we’ll move swiftly on to talk all about you. So would you mind Jon, starting by telling our listeners bit about your background and career

 

Jon Gregson  2:24  

journey? Yeah, sure. So I am a partner here at wetlands. I have two roles. I kind of work in in that. So I’m an employment partner, and I also work in our product and innovation team. But my journey, I guess I’ve been here. This is my 20 Well, I’m coming into my 20th year. So I’ve been here 19 years. I’ve only practised at Weightmans, lack of ambition, lack of anyone else wanting me. I do not know reality of that, though, of course, is, do you know what this place has? Everything I’ve ever needed, ever wanted. It’s been the opportunity to give me what I’ve wanted to do. So I came in here basically straight out of university, my LPC. I finished my LPC in probably whatever that would have been, the May, and I started here my training contract in the following September. And I’ve come straight through, and I’ve had been able to build my entire career here, primarily as an employment lawyer, for first kind of 1516, years, and then the last three or so years that’s slightly diverged into mixing and blend again, kind of an innovation role that that sits alongside that day job as well. So I work as part of our products and innovation team. And what I do is I work, kind of looking at different products, different ways of working with some more wider clients. So it broadens out slightly from just being an employment lawyer day to day, which I still do, and I still work with, you know, some of our big clients on that. I just have some other influences which kind of sit in alongside that. Now, yeah, and that’s

 

Robert Hanna  3:47  

why it was super cool, delighted to have you on, because I see this as a sort of, you know, emerging role that you have, and you know, for clarity as well, it’s for the legal tech for your existing clients. Specifically, isn’t in terms of sort of that, that relationship building, trying to add more value to your existing clients. It

 

Jon Gregson  4:02  

absolutely is. I mean, we will obviously take some ideas and we will look for new clients, because that could be a way to get things in. But in some respects, that kind of stickiness for existing clients. And it’s really about how you look at kind of problem solving clients that problems have, and that can we, can we solve those in different ways? Can we achieve things in different ways for them as well. And it’s not always necessarily, you know, doing it in that traditional way. It’s not necessarily doing it in a in a legal tech way. It might just be doing it in a different way they haven’t thought about or kind of breaking down some of those silos that, you know, you traditionally get in a law firm going, well, actually over here we do this. Can we do that over here for our existing clients as well, and making sure we can kind of share those ideas and get those kind of different ways of working in and about and kind of pushing it forward, I

 

Robert Hanna  4:46  

guess, yeah. And I’d say, Wait, was absolutely leading the way on that, um, but if we could kind of stick with with employment law for the for the moment, because obviously you’ve been hugely successful, and, as you say, started there and up to partner level, um, what attracted you to employment law? Originally,

 

Jon Gregson  5:00  

this is always a really dangerous question when anybody asked me this, so I didn’t want to be an employment lawyer, and I’m quite open and I’m quite honest in saying that, because I think it’s really important to be honest about it. So University, LPC, didn’t touch it, didn’t go near it, never studied it. Training, contract, excuse me, came in. Some people absolutely I want to do a seat in employment. I want to do a seat in I don’t know corporate. I had no real inkling as to where I wanted to go, what I wanted to do. Employment wasn’t the seat that screamed out at me. I think I got to my third seat and I was told employment was where I was going, because it was all about helping people land in their seats they would land in to potentially qualify. I landed in employment quite liked it. Can’t say it changed my life, but I enjoyed it. What then happened? There was an opportunity to go into clients, common for three months into, I think it was Lupin or Dunstable, but it was in a client. It was on an HR help desk, and that’s what switched the light bulb on. It was actually kind of getting in doing the work on the day to day level. And I suddenly kind of went, actually, this is me working with people working on the day to day level. You could see the tangible impact you could have, and it really kind of brought everything to light. And then it was, I’m going to go back, and this is what I want to do when I go back, and quite frankly, what would I be doing now? I don’t know, you know, I really don’t know what other area of law I would do. It is employment law, that is it. So, as I say, slightly dangerous question. There was nothing that kind of said it was always going to be that I stumbled into it, but it was definitely kind of the vocation that it’s then led me to be because I don’t know what else I would do if I hadn’t have got to that so, almost kind of fortunate, serendipitous, I don’t know, but it was absolutely the right place for me. I just didn’t know that when I came into it, yeah,

 

Robert Hanna  6:53  

and I love that you you referenced that when you went in on that sort of comment, you really sort of found that the value add you would be giving. And I think, you know, to have a fulfilling career, I always say, look for mission driven organisations, or where you can actually see where you’re what you are putting in is having a direct end result on something. So you get that self fulfilment, as well as, obviously, you know, renumeration that goes with it. And I love that you had that light bulb moment that could see that, and then sort of really went with gusto into your employment law career, just for folks that are probably very curious about employment law. Can you tell us more about the areas you specialise in specifically?

 

Jon Gregson  7:27  

Yeah, sure. So I am very much kind of work in the employment tribunal side of things. So it’s almost kind of the litigation side of it. Do a little bit of work on the kind of the non consensual side. Of course I do. But primarily I’m an employment tribunal litigator. So anything at all that kind of falls at the back end of employment disputes, issues, employment tribunal so, you know, dealing with employment tribunal claims, unfair dismissal, discrimination, whistle blowing. But the bits where things kind of go wrong, the disputes arise, and that’s right the way through the whole course of a claim through to then doing, you know, advocacy and employment tribunal. I spend a lot of time in tribunals, but it’s that whole piece that you get involved in. We do a lot of advice to hopefully try and avoid ending up in that, excuse me, ending up in that situation. But I’m really a litigator. I deal with, you know, when stuff goes wrong, and it’s often the case, you know, we have a bit of a joke that nobody speaks to me for a good reason. You only speak to me when it goes wrong. No one calls up for a chat. It’s out of problem. That’s why you ring Jon. You know, it’s not, how are you? It’s this has happened. It’s that kind of stuff is what really is my day to day. That’s the kind of stuff that, again, going back to that Scott piece, that’s the stuff that kind of really gets me going in this. That’s the stuff I enjoy, and why I do what I do, because it is so interesting doing that part of

 

Robert Hanna  8:48 

Yeah, and you sort of joked that there. But you know, I always say, if you can find a skill set where you’re really solving a real pain point, you’re going to be very, very successful. And then we’ll see speaking off air. You said, look, it’s been straight, straight back into it super busy, like there’s lots of things going on. And obviously you’ve developed a skill and a niche skill set which is in high demand, and so I think it’s fantastic to see that you are doing so well. And I guess this is another hard question, and maybe a little bit difficult to overshare, but has there been a memorable case that you have worked on over the years, given you’ve appeared employment tribunals, employment Appeal Tribunal, etc, etc.

 

Jon Gregson  9:23  

Yeah. I mean, there’s probably been that many. I mean, you get the ones where you sit there and you think, I have no idea what I’m doing here. The wheels are absolutely going round on these things. You get the ones which are complicated that have gone on for years and years, and then you finally get to an end point of it. Had the cases that have kind of gone Supreme Court, they changed the law. Those are the ones we get actually quite good at what we do here. Um, yeah, I’ve got one that somehow has ended up on a Netflix documentary. And you’re like, what has happened on this? You know, it’s kind of blows your mind. Is there one? Probably not. I mean, there are ones that are enjoyable. So. I think it almost to answer your question, I can’t give you one, because with employment law, you see everything. You see every type of issue, and it’s human life. So I can’t say there’s one type of issue or one type of claim that’s really stood out, because everyone is so different in so many different ways, and that, again, kind of goes back to that. This is why it’s so enjoyable. It’s why it’s why it’s so relatable. It’s why you turn up every day to do it, because there’s so much that comes out of this that no two are the like, and I can’t say one is better than the other. You know, is there something with a really complex, detailed legal argument? Yeah, I kind of love that. That’s why I do what I do, because I get into the law. But actually, do you do something that really makes it different for a client. That’s a whole different reason you do it as well. Or, you know, you think you’re going to lose this. You go in and you have a great day and you win it. That’s another one. There’s so many kind of buttons and leavers you could pull to go. This is more of favourites. So I don’t think they could say there’s one. You know, I give you the car crash once. I tell you where you want to get across toilets afterwards. Or have almost been chased down the street by an angry claim, and absolutely, but there’s so many different reasons why you say this is what we do. I don’t think there’s one that really stands out as that was the best one.

 

Robert Hanna  11:11  

Well, I think what does stand out is your your passion, you know, given that you stumbled into, like you said, self admittedly, on the employment law, right? You know, just just hearing you there, and the way that you’re describing and your level of involvement and how you’re resolving, you know, really complex, probably quite complicated. You know, cases, it’s very clear you’re passionate about the area of law that you’re involved in. I always encourage people to try and follow their passions. And you reference Netflix there. We obviously, for keen listeners, have been with us for a while. We had Carol Baskin from Tiger king when that was on the height of Netflix. And a little exclusive for our listeners, we have, you know, one of the lawyers from Sweet Bobby that was on Netflix coming out very soon. So yeah, we’re very used to having some connection to Netflix on the show. Let’s talk about tech in a minute. Obviously, I’m very and we’re very curious about tech, and, you know, we partner with Cleo, and we’re all in on kind of Tech for Good and promoting that on the show. But I want to stick with your journey on the legal side, because you have been since 2005 trainee to partner. How has that role evolved over the years? And what would you say to some people, because you are a sort of one firm partner, you know, man and boy, so to speak. How would you say you have made sure your skills are sharp, so you are completely, you know, competitive against people that might have been in different environments as they’ve grown up ranks.

 

Jon Gregson  12:25  

Yeah, it’s something I’m always kind of acutely aware of, is that, you know, this is where I have been. And inevitably, there will be people that will come and go, and they will come and go again. And you kind of, I’m sure you’ve been here, you know, you go around. I think the thing for me is I always have to have something that kind of keeps me interested, that keeps me motivated to do something a little bit different. If you sat me down and said, Look, you know, you’re just going to turn these claims over, you’re just going to go and do advocacy, that’s not enough. I would get being, quite frankly, honest, bored with that. I have to have something else that pushes me, that kind of keeps me doing something new. And it’s that stretch. It has to be doing that this job is hard enough, you know. Again, I’m always quite open about that this job is hard, you know, it takes enough out of us. If I’m bored at it, then that’s probably the day I pack up and I say, right, I’ll go and do something else, because I can’t do this job. If I get bored of it, if it becomes hard work, I can’t do that. So I always have to kind of try and find different things to do that. And I’ve always made sure that different stages through my career, I will get involved in doing different things. So you know, whether that’s working with clients, whether that’s working with maybe some of the early careers team, you know, developing some of our junior people, it’s doing different things that, I guess, you then find not only a foundation and a pathway through the firm and your own career, you then find the bits that you’re actually quite good at yourself and that you want to become the type of lawyer, the type of partner that ultimately you’ll become. And so the laws are given, I think, anyone to accept. You know, you come here, you know you go to the firms next door, the law. You will get the law right, that that’s inevitable. They should do that. It’s what else you will add into that as the lawyers that you know, the clients want to come and work with so it’s what you can do with those things. And you know, more likely that’s led into the innovation, into the tech space. But there’s always been different things that I will do the clients comment was the very first example of that, that was going out and actually understanding what it’s like to work with a client. How does a client view this? What does a client want? So I’ve done that as I say. I’ve done things in the in the early career space. I’ve done things about, you know, managing a team. So I’ve managed a team of people. I’ve just tried to make sure there’s always different things that I will do, that that stretches me, that gives me those different skills to understand those different things, so that, yeah, I can do the law, but actually, then it, it gives me all those different skills, and it rounds me off, I think, as a as not just a lawyer, but as people that they work with. And, you know, the firm then want to equally invest back into me, I guess, to put that time in, and it keeps me interested. And that’s why I’m still here, you know, 1920 years later as

 

Robert Hanna  14:50  

well. Yeah, no, absolutely. And you know, I love that you’ve been sort of, you know, skill stacking, haven’t you, and building, in addition to, like you say that the law for granted. And I guess one thing that keeps things interesting. Interesting is the is the clients. And one notable client, obviously, acting for is the Royal Mail group. Can you share what it’s been like managing a high profile client and the challenges that brings? And

 

Jon Gregson  15:09  

I think for me, well, it’s difficult because I’ve worked with them for my whole career, but for me, it’s one of the best clients you could have. I mean, again, I think I just said that, you know, the employment lawyer, you see everything. A client of that nature, you see everything. But what you really get is you get the opportunity to work with and develop really deep rooted relationships with, you know, first and so excuse the point of saying that first class employer there is, you know, a large corporate that actually is really at that forefront of what they do. So, you know, absolutely kind of best in class, in terms of the people they have, the way they approach stuff. You know, if there’s something legally, we’ll go for it. So we take cases that, you know, Court of Appeal, we go to Supreme Court. You get to really do the really good legal stuff. You get to do stuff with really good lawyers. You get to work with really good HR people. It’s just a great client to work with. And as I say, I’ve built a career with it. I’ve got a team of, you know, 2223 people. They’re building their own careers out with that client. Now it’s, it’s not really a client. It’s much, much more than that. It’s a deeper relationship with that. The people you work with, you class them as friends. I wouldn’t swap that out for any different model in terms of where I’ve come from with come from with it. And I think that the biggest thing I can say is, you know, 1920 years in, I don’t feel like I’ve worked with that one main client for the duration of that. It feels like I have the variation, the different kind of experiences that come from that that it’s much, much more than that. You might put a name on it, but it’s not it’s really much more than that. I wouldn’t change that for any opportunity elsewhere. I wouldn’t think,

 

Robert Hanna  16:46  

No. And you know, all industries are changing, aren’t they? So, so new challenges, new things come about. So like you say, it’s not like it’s just the same thing time and time again, you experience different things. And the fact that that growth and now that’s being able to feed other people’s careers. There’s a nice legacy attachment to that one, attachment to that as well. Okay, let’s, let’s switch lanes and talk about the tech. Because, you know, we’re, we’re really pro tech here on the legally speaking podcast, because you are a sort of product and innovation partner. You know, can you tell us what that role actually involves? And you know, what do you most enjoy about doing that specific role? Yeah.

 

Jon Gregson  17:21  

So the best way I can describe that is it’s a blank sheet of paper. Now, that sounds slightly contradictory, but it’s a blank sheet. So what I have is a remit that I sit almost at that intersection, I guess, between kind of client, legal operations, and then all the other parts of the business, so things like the innovation team, the product team, marketing, and anywhere else that you would ever need to draw in as part of that client relationship. And so it’s about kind of, you know, working with existing clients, maybe some prospective clients, going, what are the problems? What are the issues you’ve got? How do we solve that? And so, you know, you take, for example, we know that some client partners, some people who you know, will work on the tools with clients. They’re great at servicing things, but they might not be great at going, how do we do it differently? Or do I actually understand what we’re doing? Or we just do this the same way every single time? Do we maybe then get somebody in that can look at it with a different perspective? Or we’ve got this great new product, this great piece of tech. But actually, the people that do the work with you, they’re just good at servicing the work. They don’t really understand the tech. And actually they’re going to run a million miles away from it. How are they going to have a conversation with a client about that tech? How are they going to maybe go and demo it? The two things just rub against it. So if you put somebody like myself and the other project innovation partners, we’ve got, well, we understand the tech, we understand the innovation piece. We still work with clients. So we understand clients. We can join those dots up and make sure that the right people are in the room at the right time, and we can kind of translate some of those conversations through as well. So it’s about being able to kind of make those conversations happen, but also as well, because we still practice we understand what clients need. So you can kind of sit with a client and go, Well, tell us what’s keeping you away. What’s keeping you awake at night, you know, let’s look at, maybe, I don’t know, the trends, the data in some of the claims you’re getting. And let’s go underneath that. Can we solve that with a piece of tech? Can we solve it with a piece of paper? But it’s not just transactional, kind of, you know, a to b and going over. So it’s just about having a blank sheet, but maybe then going from a different perspective. And we don’t perspective. I’m a different voice. And if I can’t solve it, I know who else in the firm can. And I’m not just here with your client partner. It’s so it’s a little bit abstract, I guess, but it’s just a different way of doing that. But it’s something that we found actually is really successful, and it’s really interesting way of doing it, about getting the right people doing so blank sheets of paper. But I’m here to join the dots. But that, I guess, is a good way of putting it as

 

Robert Hanna  19:44  

well, and it’s enhanced collaboration. I think at the moment, it’s early, but I think it’ll become table stakes for law firms to really have this and to go deeper, particularly with the advent of AI and everything else that’s coming, in terms of things that can be automated. I think it’s taking that. Human touch, and that strategic thinking to higher levels, in terms of a law firm, to how you can really partner with the clients. And, you know, you mentioned it there, actually, we had Liam Wright, private equity partner from Osman Clark, on before she said, I don’t see myself as a lawyer. You know, I doing the law is table, you know, simple in terms of expected I help my clients sleep at night. That’s what really, I’m sure. And you referenced it there, and it’s so important. But I mean, you’ve had some huge success with the innovations as well, and some market recognition. You know your Quality Act design making tool came as a runner up in the managing partner forum Awards for Best People initiative, the product and innovation team were a runner up at the most innovative firm of the Year at the British legal tech awards in 2022 so you know, what was your inspiration behind creating the Equality Act tool, and could you talk us through how that works?

 

Jon Gregson  20:44  

Yeah, of course. And so that’s a really good one, actually, and that comes out of the work that we did with Royal Mail, actually. So what we had with that was, you know, and it’d be the same with any client. You know. What we know and we look at is, we’ve worked with you for years. We know where your your employment tribunal claims come from. You know we can tell you that any other law firm can tell you that. So primarily your claims are going to be disability discrimination claims. We know that it’s probably the most any client, any any company, any client, that’s where their biggest single source of claims will come from. It’s difficult. It’s hard managers struggle with it. And so what we’ve kind of the view we take is, you know that, but actually what you don’t then come to us for is for us to tell you that what you need is us to give you a solution to go, Well, how do we mitigate the risk on that? How do we mitigate your compensation spend on that? How do we stop that becoming an issue? So what we looked at was, well, let’s go and kind of lift up the stone on some of those claims and go, what’s causing that? What’s the issue within that? And what was quite clear quite quickly, is its confidence, its decision making, its paper trails, all those kind of things that we kind of know but it’s there. So then we said, Well, okay, how can we how can we solve that? How can we mitigate that? And so we looked at what we had inside of some of the tech that’s, you know, on the shelf, and some of the things we could do. And what we realised is, actually we’ve got a piece of software that is about decision making. And so actually you could look at, if the answer to this is a, then you move to question B, and once you answer Question B, you move to question C. That’s some of the decision making that goes into the decision about whether somebody is likely to be disabled. So when managers were asking the wrong questions in the wrong order, or just not even asking them, we could run that process through, effectively a decision making tree. Then actually, when managers weren’t keeping any kind of paper, trail off that well we can spit a report out at the end, and then where we have issues with kind of employee engagement, because we weren’t asking employees that, well, sit them down, get the manager to run the tool with it. So it was about kind of reverse engineering, the problems, the issues that were causing the claims, causing us to then have to lose and settle the claims, reverse engineer that all the way through. And what we did, we sat down with the client, and we worked out how we could get from A to B, using the bit tech to work through. Well, what’s the legal test? What’s the principles involved? And we just overlaid that onto the tech, and we came up with this tool, which effectively is something that a manager can sit down with, gives them the questions. It gives them the way to ask the right question, the right way, at the right time, every time, and then it gives you the paper trail that comes off the back of it. Spent the time kind of getting that in with the client, working through, and then we rolled it out. And there’s, there’s the best part, 10,000 managers using that now every day, and it’s all about mitigating that risk for them. And it’s been really successful, really, really, really helpful. And going, we don’t just deal with your claims. We’re about mitigating and rolling that down. And then it’s going, Well, if that works for one client, it probably works for every other client and every other prospective client. So it gives us a product we can then develop and roll out from that. So that was simply a case of looking at what we had by way of existing clients, existing kind of claims, what was in there, what was causing them, and then taking those steps back to see how we could do that, which you would never have got. You just gone. Oh yeah, we handled disability claims for you, there you go. Sorted. Today’s

 

Robert Hanna  24:03  

episode is brought to you by Clio, the all in one, legal practice management software designed to help solicitors like you save time, stay organised and deliver outstanding client experience. Clio is trusted by 1000s of legal professionals worldwide, offering a user friendly interface, seamless time recording, automated billing and secure cloud storage so you can manage your practice from anywhere. With Clio, you’ll get award winning support available 24, five by live chat, phone and email. So help is always there when you need it most. It’s no wonder Clio consistently receives five star ratings for its ease of use and top notch service. If you’re ready to experience a better way to manage your practice, visit clio.com forward slash UK to learn more and see why Clio continues to be the go to choice for solicitors across the UK. Now back to the show, and it comes back to your point that it’s not a transactional relationship. You’re going deeper. You know, you’re really trying to problems. And as a result of that, you know, they’re far more process driven, they’re more efficient. They’re getting higher quality, you know, utilisation through the tools that you’re producing and everything else that comes with it. Let’s talk a little bit now about sickness management, performance and misconduct. I was at an event last year, and I was surprised by the actually four sick days, how high up ergonomics is actually a muscular, you know, injuries and things like that, where people are taking time off work. Had a fascinating discussion. But you provide policy advice to FTSE 100 clients on issues like, I say, around sickness, management, performance, misconduct. What would be your advice to employers or businesses on managing these areas, and how often are they very, very sensitive, in your opinion?

 

Jon Gregson  25:42  

I mean, it is. I mean, a lot of this is all about engagement. It’s all about getting ahead of these things. And, you know, we were having some conversations, and tell her here, actually, the other day, about, you know, what? What’s that point where you you suddenly, kind of see that tipping point with people from, you know, with absence, and it then becomes difficult to get people back in. And what’s a tipping point is it kind of, Is it four weeks? Is it a little bit beyond that? And it’s, it’s all about that engagement piece, and it’s about what you can do to, kind of, to get people back into work, and it’s about keeping them, whilst they’re absent, engaged and on board with those things. And I think once you see where it then tips into that, and it’s, it’s not about what you’re then doing to, you know, manage people through processes about how you kind of trying to keep people in work, get them back into work. That’s the key to a lot of that, which is pretty much the same with, you know, vast majority of what we do with employment law, it’s about the people, it’s how you manage the people, and it it’s just a crucial part of what we do, and how that all kind of fits together. And I think, I think, absolutely, even more so now, you know, particularly with kind of different ways of working, different work patterns, different kind of, you know, agile working, without kind of going into that side of things. But you can see exactly how that is crucial. And as soon as that kind of slips, and you kind of start going down that slippery slope of things, it’s really difficult. I think a big part of it is, is having the confidence to manage it as well. You know, we see a lot of time, and a lot of the a lot of the advice in the work that we do with clients is just making sure that people have the confidence and as well as the skills to be able to manage those situations because they are difficult. You know, there’s no doubt about that is a difficult subject to deal with, but it shouldn’t be something that you you shy away from, because actually, that in itself, then just creates more issue, and actually probably even harder subjects the challenge further down the line from that as well.

 

Robert Hanna  27:26  

Yeah. And we’ve had so many guests, some before where, you know, they’ve talked about certain things that that are hard, you know, within the law, and one of those is cultured, something that comes to mind, if you had the global Managing Partner, clearly, Gottlieb, come on. And, you know, Michael and Stan, he was saying culture is hard, you know, actually, but you’ve got to have the conversations, and you’ve got to set the parameters so everyone understands. Because, you know, it can’t all just be, you know, you know, fluffy and all well to do. And I think to your point there about sort of you have to have the conversation to understand and then try and move forward. The other thing we’re passionate about here on the show is busting myths. So, you know, we’ve had lots of people. We’ve had Carla Poppe. Come on, who’s a wealth bright. He’s doing some great stuff around financial education and busting myths with an employment lawyer on today. So you know, what are some of the misconceptions about employment law? You wish people understood better

 

Jon Gregson  28:15  

about employment law. I mean, I think the biggest thing from from an employment law perspective, is that you know, again, as I probably just touched on it, is that you know, the vast majority of this here is here to help. And actually, if you, if you take what we do, and if you, you know, use it in a very proactive, pragmatic way, it does, indefinitely help with things, where it goes wrong is where you you don’t follow a process where you don’t engage with things. You know, I kind of often have a conversation people don’t really engage with it, but about 30% of what I do is law, you know, 70% of it is confidence in making it sound like I know, and actually also reassuring people that what they’re saying is the right thing with it. You know, a lot of the work I do with clients is they already know the answer. They just want the reassurance. They want, the confidence that what they’re doing is right and that, you know, they’re on track with it. I think if you can get the confidence into people that what they’re doing is the right thing, and that then feeds into the engagement, that’s the biggest piece with that. And I think the other thing perhaps you see is, you know, you see a lot of the headlines, obviously, from things that come up, employment tribunals, about how maybe the system’s a little bit kind of too soft, or it’s kind of supports those kind of things. It’s not, it’s when you look at the detail, you then see why reasons are and things. But that’s just the nature of what we do. Again, it is people, isn’t it? It attracts the headlines to it. You know, what we do is salacious. It is always going to attract the headlines here. So I think the thing I would always say with employment lawyers that can you have to read beneath the headline, you have to look at the detail and the facts of it. But again, it gets interest. It sparks debate. I have no problem with that. You know, there’s a lot again at the moment about return to work, return to an office. You. I have no issue in the whole debate about that, as long as it kind of stays within that right kind of guidelines. As it’s a debate, you can have different views to that. That’s fine. That’s all again, the beauty of employment law is it’s very relevant. I think that’s one of the really strong things about what we do. If it was about, you know, a tripped over a chair, a chairs fell, I may have walked into a chair. I would really struggle in that. Now, some people that will turn their world absolutely on fire. It’s not going to Zoe for me. I know with what I do, it’s every day, and it’s around it. That’s the employment law piece, but you have to do it in the right way. That’s the really important thing, because it is a very human piece. It has to be in the right way with it. Yeah,

 

Robert Hanna  30:38  

and we advocate strongly for that human connection. We always talk about the H to H, human to human. To human connection, replacing that B to B, B to C, I guess, what keeps you sort of well networked as well, and probably with sort of skill up skilling is Your Employment Lawyers Association, because you’ve been involved and contributed. How has that helped your professional journey? And you know, what have been the benefits for you being part of that as a member?

 

Jon Gregson  31:04  

Yeah, so, I mean, I think that inevitably goes back to the point around development. How you keep the upscaler piece? I think, I think you have to, to keep some elements of what you do, and you keep an element of how you do that externally. So I think certainly as a junior lawyer, you try and find those ways you can contribute to things. So you know, whether that’s articles, just kind of keeping yourself out there, and it helps sharpen that external perspective of things. And again, you don’t want to become too insular things. So I think definitely, as a junior lawyer, you will go to events against probably not where you kind of you need to build your network of people. I just think it’s a really good way to go, actually, technically, as a lawyer, I kind of know what I’m doing, and almost kind of applying your own mind to I do have some thoughts. Do have a voice, and it’s okay to start expressing them. And Ela is a really good way to find a space that you can do that, because everybody is involved in something that inevitably will be relevant to that. Because the law, with what we do, it changes by the week. Everybody will have a case somewhere that touches in, that it’s just a really good way, and that there’s enough locally, in local branches of things as well that you can get involved in because I think it’s a really difficult was that difficult? Sorry, it’s very different world now in terms of building networks out compared to what it would have been previously. Yeah, it’s a great opportunity for junior lows to get into those kind of things, to be able to kind of things, to be able to kind of build those connections outside of, outside of firms and and being kind of insulin on that as well. Yeah,

 

Robert Hanna  32:27  

no, absolutely. You know, really believe in the strength of building out a network and how invaluable it can be as you go on your career journey. And it’s great that you kind of reference, that you also reference articles, because you have published articles and deliver training on employment law. What topics are you most passionate about, with sharing with others? And if so, why?

 

Jon Gregson  32:45  

I think for me, what really kind of gets me kind of passionate about, it’s, it’s the stuff I see day in, day out. So a lot of it is kind of around the discrimination side of things, maybe kind of some of the whistleblower, it’s the stuff that becomes a problem, you know, it’s the stuff that you see that then becomes not just that, when I say a problem, I mean, becomes an issue for employees and for businesses, that, if you don’t get hold of it, changes lives, you know. And don’t get me wrong, of course, if you dismiss somebody that fundamentally changes lives, I’m very, very acutely aware of that. But the stuff that then kind of becomes really difficult. So, you know, some of the stuff you see in discrimination claims, if you don’t get whole life, you don’t know how to manage that, if you don’t know how to prevent that, you see, you know, we see and we you know, there’s plenty of examples where you see things about sexual harassment, how those kind of things are, you know, can go horrifically wrong. I see enough because of the volume of claims I deal with it. We don’t manage disability race. So I think anything where you get the opportunity to kind of work with clients, you know, work across the board, to be able to kind of say, look, what are you seeing? What are the challenges? How can we help with that? I think this was a really important opportunity to be able to kind of get some investment into that and ultimately try to stop that actually becoming a claim that’s going to come our way. I don’t really want that, you know, in in a really good way. I don’t want that to become a claim. I would much rather you don’t come and speak to me about that in six, nine months time. So if we can do stuff to work with people, to to actually stop a that happening in the first place, but B, then give you the skills to manage that, to mitigate that and resolve that, that’s 100 million times better than actually me, then getting a claim in, you know, a year’s time, because it’s happened. That’s really what this is about, is preventing these issues, rather than, ultimately, you know, more work for me at the end

 

Robert Hanna  34:31  

of the day. Yeah, no, absolutely. And you’re right, you know, put the preventive measures in place so you can, like I said before, you know, your clients can sleep at night. One of the things that you know, I’ve been following and been very impressed about, so I’m going to talk about now is your LinkedIn journey. Because in one of your most recent LinkedIn posts, you shared an image from The Simpsons with the caption LinkedIn folk explaining to tik tokers everywhere today how to be humbled, delighted and thrilled by everything you do. So you’re known to have a bit of a sense of humour on the platform. Form, how do you come up with content?

 

Jon Gregson  35:01  

You know, that’s, that’s probably the single most, biggest question that I get asked. Yeah, I think for me, it’s, there’s two things to answer that. One is about trying to be authentic. And secondly, well, actually, there might be three answers to that. First one is being authentic. The second is trying to find something that is relatable. I can come back to that. And then the third one is just kind of keeping your eyes open and seeing what’s going on around you. LinkedIn is becoming a much more, you know, kind of fashionable, interesting place to be on. And it’s then, how do you make that relatable? And I think I just lifted a meme or something and then kindly, slightly changed it. So in part, it’s about being a work and having something that kind of talks, maybe to things that are happening in the world, that that’s definitely one thing to it. The other part to it, though, is trying to find something that is relatable. Because, you know, it’s all about for me, how do I stop you scrolling through because there is that much of you scroll through LinkedIn, yeah, 78% of it is just crap. But how do you then catch your attention with it? So it’s, it’s, how do I find that, um, equally, um, if you’re going to do it and it’s going to be funny, I think it still has to be relatable to stuff. So I’ve posted something about why I haven’t responded to your email, that though, then has to be, still talk to the fact that, actually, we all know that sometimes people don’t respond to email. So I’ve made a joke of it. Yeah, but the there is a sense of truth in that. So I try and draw on, I guess, my own experiences, probably those things that, you know, I wouldn’t openly go out and say I didn’t respond to your email because, you know, X sent me it, and I don’t like them, but I’ve made a joke out of that. I just try and draw on those things. What I also don’t do is then go, here’s a really dry, boring, legal, employment law update, because no one wants that. There’s also 100 other better employment lawyers out there than that. So I just try and draw on things that you know are going to be relatable, that might be slightly topical, but also then just try and catch your attention. But it’s also done in a way that actually then you will go, Okay, I like that. Oh, it actually is also an employment lawyer. So when you then need an employment lawyer, I might be the one that kind of sticks in the back of your mind, that pops up, and then we can get into that conversation at some point

 

Robert Hanna  37:12  

as well. Yeah. And the reality is, likability matters in business, you know, if you can get across relatable, you know, educational, edutainment type focus and become likeable and build a community, then people will keep coming back, and then you’ll be amazed how far this can just run. I mean, I’m banging on all the time about the importance of a personal brand and LinkedIn, but from a partner in a law firm who now sort of in in the tech space within legal as well. You know, do you believe LinkedIn is a good platform for building a personal brand? And would you encourage others in and around the league profession to jump on it?

 

Jon Gregson  37:44  

Oh, yeah, it’s invaluable. I mean, I’m very much someone who’s a bit of a, kind of a late adopter to this, so, you know, I’ve only kind of really done this for probably about 18 months now, in terms of really doing it properly. So I know I’m very, very new to this, and I’ve got kind of a relatively small following to this. You know, I’m not someone that’s kind of got 15, 25,000 people that follow me, but it’s invaluable in terms of going, you know, who I am, and being able to kind of build that brand out of it. And I have kind of been able to do that, um, you know, somewhere the other week, and kind of somebody literally stopped me in the street and said, Look, this is going to sound a bit weird, but are you Jon? And it’s kind of like this, you know, when you kind of like, this is weird. I get stuff sent here now, just addressed to Jon from LinkedIn. You can build a brand out of yourself on that. And I think again, it goes back to two things. I guess one is the laws taken as a given that so it talks to your point about the human to human piece about you get to see what it’s like to work with me. You get to see what it’s like to as a client. You get to see what’s like if you want to work with me here at wakeman’s. And at waitmans. But then also it’s that second point about how you could then start to build that network out in a very, very different world. I guess, probably where I was 20 years ago. It gives you a chance to do that, and I think you just have to get on board with it. I know it’s not easy, it’s very difficult, but it’s a way to kind of go, this is what it’s like to work with us, to be with us as people. That’s the fundamental piece. And it’s people not going to teach you the law that’s easy.

 

Robert Hanna  39:10  

And, you know, and you know, lawyers again, I think get a little bit too over thoughtful on this. You know, it’s personal brand, not perfect brand. You know, you don’t have to be perfect, you know, like you say, being that authentic self, are actually saying, Today, I’m having a shit day, you know, that’s actually authentic. You know, there’s no career, or anyone doesn’t turn up. And you know, as long as you can put something out, that it’s going to be relatable, hopefully help people in whatever fashion it might be. You know, I think we’re here from it, and I’m, you know, I think we’re also, you know, I’ve also collaborated with with Gary Vaynerchuk on a LinkedIn live, and I also heard him recently say that, you know, we’re not in social media anymore. It’s interest media. And I think it’s very true, you know, because you know the amount of business and professional people and LinkedIn, you know people have an interest in your world. You know they’re interested in what you have to say, because you’re putting yourself out there, you’re educating, you’re entertaining, you’re informing people. And so I always think about this in terms of, you know, everyone is interesting. You just need to be prepared to put yourself out there and share your story. And I love that you’re doing it and looking forwards. Then obviously, you know, you probably have a good, good view on this. What does the future of employment law look like? It’s constantly evolving, as you said, but what are some of the key trends you see shaping employment law in the coming years? Yeah,

 

Jon Gregson  40:16  

so obviously, we’ve got kind of employment law bill that will come in, you know, probably next year now, which is going to have some real kind of changes for us in terms of employment rights that will come in that that will be a big one. I think, really, that the beauty of employment law is it can change overnight. You get one decision. It kind of tips on its head, what can happen with it? So there’s always that element of the unknown. There’s always the elements of something could happen. The big thing is the employment law bill that will come in, that will change a lot of things for us. I think what we also then just have to always kind of be mindful of is we obviously have more kind of, you know, the kind of younger generations coming through now, so that will shape, you know, how we work, the way we work. And that will be interesting. It will be a different challenge, but it will be a good one. So we will start to see that, I think, in terms of how they kind of express themselves at work, how that, you know, different challenges come at the back of that work. You know, what we are used to, how we’ve kind of managed those issues that will all be, you know, up for grabs, and that will change. So I think, I think short term, we know there are some legislative changes coming. That’s fine. We will deal with that. There’s always, then the unknown from somebody might take a claim that will try and tip something we’ve known for 2030, years on its head. Great. That’s the whole point of being a lawyer. But I think societal changes will also come in, which is, again, it’s employment law, you see that? And so that will be a really interesting one, probably the the, you know, work from home, work from office, piece that it feels like that kind of tips around the edges of things all the time and stuff, but, but it can be anything, you know, we we had the kind of, obviously with the pandemic, we had loads of real good, you know, interesting issues that came out of that for us. You only need one event, and it suddenly becomes a massive thing for us. So I think there are some interesting things. I think it will be an interesting world to work in. It always is, but I think it will be. I think for me, those kind of generational pieces are being an interesting one, just to see how that really starts having influence, because we we’ve seen bits of it, but actually, once that kind of starts to mature, might be quite an interesting one to to actually see how that plays out. I think, yeah,

 

Robert Hanna  42:24  

no, and I agree, and that kind of lends nicely onto what I was going to ask before we wrap up in terms of the the next generation. What would be your advice to younger lawyers or aspiring solicitors looking to specialise in employment law? I think

 

Jon Gregson  42:36  

I would just say, Just Just try it. Just try anything to be willing to have a go and see and that’s maybe not even for just employment lawyers, just as a lawyer is you just try. And I would say, I’m an example of that in the sense of, I didn’t want to do this. I had no interest in this. It’s worked out, okay. Ish, for me, you just have to try something. And I think that’s probably, you know, one of the biggest things we would ever say to any of our junior lawyers, our trainees, our apprentices, is you just try it. Not only helps with that, that brand piece, I guess, but if you’re willing to go and try something, you never know, and unless you try it. And I think that’s an important one for an employment law you know, nobody wants to come in and be an advocate. They don’t want to go and do the standing on their feet until being a tribunal. But actually, some people really enjoy it. Some don’t. That’s fine, but if you don’t try, you don’t know, that’s a really good piece of the employment perspective. But I think ultimately, just have a go. You know, it might be for you if it’s not again, you know, you look where I’ve gone into the innovation piece, there’s opportunities now in law firms, you don’t need to be a lawyer, so if you get anything, actually, this isn’t for me, we’ll, we’ll put the time in elsewhere. Because ultimately, we, we brought you in because we like the person, you know, we’ll find something else for you that will play those trends for you elsewhere. But just go and try it. You have to just go and try it’s the biggest thing, I think, and

 

Robert Hanna  43:54  

I think it’s hugely exciting that you know that there are multiple career routes you can take now within law firms, you know, it isn’t just a traditional role, like you say, in terms of fee earning, there’s so many different things that you can add an impact. So if you’re just curious about legal like you say, I think it’s a great way get yourself out there and give it a try. Jon, it’s been a great conversation. Really enjoyed learning more about your story and all the value that you’re giving, particularly over on LinkedIn as well to the legal community. So if folks want to learn more about your career or indeed what you’re getting up to at Weightmans, where can they find out more? Feel free to share any websites or indeed, social media handles will also include them. This episode for you too.

 

Jon Gregson  44:30  

It’s LinkedIn. Probably the one place you find me is just on LinkedIn. Just, yeah, that’s where you get the good, the bad and the probably not so relevant about me. I’m honest. Yeah. Well, thanks so much.

 

Robert Hanna  44:40  

Once again, Jon, it’s been an absolute pleasure having you on the show. From all of us on the league living podcast, sponsored by CLIA, wishing you lots of continued success with your dual career and what else is in the future pipeline, but for now, from all of us over and out. Thank you for listening to this week’s episode. If you like the content here, why not check out our world leading content and collab. Operation hub, the legally speaking club, over on Discord. Go to our website, www dot legally speaking podcast.com, for the link to join our community there, over and out.