Sports Law Special: A Rugby Union – S3E30

For the Season 3 Finale of the Legally Speaking Podcast,  our host Robert Hanna  spoke to Ben Cisneros and Daniel Leo.

Daniel is a former professional rugby player. In the past, he’s played for London Wasps and his home country, the Pacific island nation of Manu Samoa. He’s currently the CEO of Pacific Rugby Players Welfare (PRPW) and Director at Tusitala Films.

Ben is a Trainee Solicitor at Morgan Sports Law, the new legal partner of PRPW, supporting the charity’s mission to help the 600 Pacific islander players in Europe.

In this unique episode, we learn how Daniel fought to unite the traditionally nationalistic Pacific islander players amidst the corruption and greed in the governing boards of world rugby. We also discover how Ben and Morgan Sports Law is supporting this underreported issue.

Overall, topics discussed include:

  • Why Daniel set up the Pacific Rugby Players Welfare (PRPW) organisation
  • His memories of professional rugby and more details on his film (‘Oceans Apart’), which exposed the dark side of rugby in Oceania
  • How Morgan Sports Law is levelling the playing field between the powerful governing boards and under resourced players
  • Ben’s wider experience of being a trainee sports lawyer


Rob Hanna (00:00):

Welcome to the Legally Speaking Podcast. I’m your host, Rob Hanna this week. I’m delighted to be joined by Daniel Leo and Ben Cisneros. Daniel is the CEO of Pacific Rugby Players Welfare, an organization which supports professional and semi-professional players of the Pacific Island heritage in the UK and Europe. Daniel is also a director of Tusitala films and has previous experience as a professional rugby player. Before this Daniel worked as an athlete ambassador at Right To Play, empowering children to be successful. Ben is currently a trainee solicitor Morgan sports law. Having joined the firm last year after graduating from Cambridge University, he regularly writes articles for his rugby and the law blog and in his spare time is a keen sportsman being the former national and European sailing champion. So a very, very warm welcome Daniel and Ben!

Daniel Leo (00:54):

Thanks for having us, Rob. Pleased to meet you!

Ben Cisneros (00:54):

Hi Rob, Yeah Cheers Rob

Rob Hanna (00:58):

Absolute pleasure to have you both. So before we dive into all of your amazing achievements and experience to date, we do have a customary icebreaker question here on the legally speaking podcast, which is on the scale of one to 10, 10 being very real, how real would you rate the reality hit series suits in terms of its reality? I think it’s fair for me to go to Ben for this one.

Ben Cisneros (01:19):

Yeah, I think I probably have to give it a about a one, to be honest. I think the only thing that’s real about it is the fact that it’s to do with lawyers. Put it this way, I’ve never seen Harvey draft anything.

Rob Hanna (01:34):

One is probably a fair outcome and a lot of people say the fact that he can be a corporate lawyer one day, a litigator the next day and various others. Um, I’m yet to see somebody who can master that. So let’s, let’s start at the beginning. And Dan coming to you first, tell our listeners a bit about your background and upbringing.

Daniel Leo (01:51):

Uh, my heritage small Pacific Island only really known for, uh, exporting coconuts and, uh, rugby players. So I was one of those went to New Zealand at a young age. Um, went through the schooling system in New Zealand and, uh, played rugby all my life. Probably. Um, was probably destined, my dad was a massive rugby fan, really pushed me into rugby. I wouldn’t say he was as, um, as far going as like Serena Williams’ dad or anything like that; I think it was probably a bit of desperation that rugby would be a way for me to provide for our family, which it became. So yeah, we moved over to the UK at 22 years of age, to Wasps and I played 15 careers at various clubs throughout Europe, before retiring three or four years ago. Played for Samoa throughout that period which was a real pleasure. And a couple of world cups as well, sort of transitioned into this role that I’m doing now, helping to look up and use the experience that I’ve built up over the last sort of 15 or 20 years of playing to try and pass that on and help, the next couple of, not just specific players, but a lot of the work we do is actually for the greater good of all athletes that play the game of rugby as we’ll probably get into later.

Rob Hanna (03:13):

Definitely gonna jump into all of that. And Ben, how about you tell us a bit about your sort of background and upbringing.

Ben Cisneros (03:18):

Yeah. So, I’m, as you said in the introduction, I’m a training solicitor at Morgan Sports Law and I graduated in 2019 from Cambridge university. So I’m pretty fresh in my legal career, I suppose, but, you know, I have a huge passion for sports law, which is the area that obviously I’m working in. I’m very fortunate to get into that field at this point in my career, but I also have a, a great interest in rugby and always have done, I think, perhaps from my, a New Zealand heritage I’m half Kiwi as well. So I think that part of my blood is drawn me to the game, I suppose. And, um, although I’ve never been a player of any great caliber, it’s always been something that I had a great interest in. And, uh, in, in recent years, I’ve tried to combine that with my, my passion for law and, um, that my, my rugby little blog and working to develop my expertise in that field really.

Rob Hanna (04:07):

Yeah. Great stuff. And I do follow your blog and anyone listening should definitely check it out, particularly as me as a rugby enthusiast fan. I think the content you produce is super, super interesting. So Dan, you touched on it just as part of your, your sort of intro there, but before becoming the CEO of Pacific rugby players’ welfare you were a professional rugby player, tell us about some of those experiences and what that was actually like.

Daniel Leo (04:30):

Fantastic. You know, I was really lucky to play, you know, the pinnacle of the game, um, you know, with some of the, you know, the worlds’ top players, you know, world cup winners, uh, at a good couple of world cups, so as I said, myself , but, um, the day in day out of being a professional rugby player, is you know, like any other job, you know, it’s got its ups, but it’s also got its downs, and it can be a lot more mundane than, you know, the games are great, but the training in between, you know, um, pretty, pretty tough to give, you know, those early sort of Tuesday, Wednesday sessions where you’re just trying to replicate, they try and make those training sessions harder than games so that when you get to the games, it’s theoretically easier – that may work when you’re younger. But when you sort of get into you early thirties, you’re trying to hang on it can be quite tough. It’s a lot of traveling, it can be difficult, you know, short contracts, one to two year contracts, most of the time having to chase the egg around the world, which sounds again romantic, but some, you know, when you pick up a wife and a couple of kids along the way, it gets tougher. I had a great time, um, was, as I said earlier, was really privileged to be able to play from our country, my dad’s country, Samoa, and represent them on a number of occasions. And, um, it’s like anything, you know, you look back and I’m proud of what I achieved. That’s, I feel like, you know, I’ve got a lot more to do now. Maybe I was never a superstar of the game, but I feel like maybe the mark that I can leave, and the legacy that I can leave is more for the work I’m doing now, as opposed to anything I couldn’t do on the field.

Rob Hanna (06:11):

Good stuff. Do you have a particular highlight that stands out to you from your professional playing days?

Daniel Leo (06:17):

Ooh, I think, I think on a club level probably winning the Heineken cup with Wasps, side by side with guys like Lawrence Dallaglio and Jos h Lucy, Simon Shaw, even as we had a team full of superstars. And it was, that was amazing. I was really young when it happened, I’d only been in England for two years when that had happened and I didn’t realize how special winning those sorts of things. It was normal to me at that stage as Wasps were winning everything. In the end, I got to 35 and I hadn’t won a trophy in 10 years. And you realize those are special moments that – playing in a world cup as well – um, my second one was in New Zealand and that was almost a home, World Cup for us, given the amount of Samoans that migrated to New Zealand, including my family. So that was, that was really awesome. Was already arriving through the airport from Samoa to Auckland and having 10,000 fans greet us at the airport, just screaming. It was like, you know, the closest thing you could get to I guess, to being a pop star. Yeah those were cool moments.

Rob Hanna (07:21):

I’m banned from attending any more world cups, because I was in Tokyo with England and I was in Paris against South Africa – twice, so all my friends are saying, I’m the bad luck omen. So I’m not allowed to go to any more World Cup Finals. So,we’re going to move swiftly on from a world cup, but that sounds like an amazing experience. So we’ve touched on that again, Dan, just to come with you, the Pacific rugby players welfare earlier, but people not familiar with it. Can you tell us more about it and why it was set up?

Daniel Leo (07:48):

Yeah, I guess it’s a movement by former players, myself being at the forefront as director of it, but really there was about a good fifty players around the world that really came together to put this organization together and give it the feed it needed. The Samoan culture is very hierarchical, so I couldn’t have done anything like this by myself because I would have been, A, I would have been very difficult for me to reach out to the Fijians and Tongans and Wallas and Futunans and New Caledonians as a Samoan, but also my age would have counted against me because, um, the way our culture is structured as a more gray hair you have on your head, the more respect you’re given. So, um, there was a lot of senior guys a lot more senior than me. Who’ve been a part of those pacific island teams, particularly from Samoa that really put pacific island rugby on the map, the world cups in 91 and 95, guys like Mike Umaga and Junior Paramore, and guys like that, to really put this organization together and really it’s a support mechanism. It’s a, it’s a network to support hundreds of players, if not thousands of players now that are playing professional and senior professional rugby, of pacific island descent, around the world and giving them the skills that they need in terms of the community. But also some of the things like, um, you know, Morgan Sports and Ben offered to us the legal services behind that, are so important to have those resources when it comes to dealing with contracts and moving overseas, and cultural integration and everything like that. So, yeah. A whole lot of arms to the organization really, I guess in a nutshell, it’s a support network for professional rugby players from the islands.

Rob Hanna (09:29):

And I, I love that word you used there about community as well, because I think the organization slogan is ‘stronger together’. So how did you arrive at that? And is there anything else you would add just around that particular slogan?

Daniel Leo (09:40):

It’s probably quite cliché now, ‘stronger together’, we chucked it down and thought ‘that’s pretty awesome’ and then I think the South African Rugby team picked it up and almost every organization uses that slogan now. So we’re in the process of actually possibly changing that up and making it more unique again, but I guess it refelcted what we were at the time as we needed to come together because, um, like anything, you know, you’re weak when you’re divided – our colonial past on the pacific islands is evidence of that. Thousands of years ago, the pacific were one people, we would travel between the islands and we restored ourselves as one people. And the first thing the colonials came and said , no you are all separate countries, all different people groups, and then made us weak. So we knew that for some of the battles that we face in terms of professional rugby, the professional rugby landscape, we were, we would be stronger again together and United. So we couldn’t do it as former Samoa rugby players or Fiji rugby players or Tonga players. We had to come together and really – cause a lot of restraints are shared between those people groups. So we would do better fighting and banding together to take those on.

Rob Hanna (10:51):

Yeah. And I love that and I couldn’t agree more. Ben switching to a slightly sort of legal point, um, a large part of what the organization does is supporting players by striving for more fairness and transparency in sports law. I believe in January, it was announced that World Rugby will introduce a ‘fit and proper persons’ test for elected officials. A matter that I believe you helped to advise on. Do you think that move goes far enough?

Ben Cisneros (11:17):

Just to be clear, I wasn’t involved in advising World Rugby at all, but it’s something that Dan and I looked at in last summer when we put together a report to go to World Rugby’s working group that was looking at governance. And that was one of the things we addressed was the eligibility of people , to hold positions within world rugby and particularly on the world rugby council and, and their executive committee, which were essentially sort of the legislative bodies and the decision-making bodies of world rugby. It’s something that we’ve, we’ve looked at in quite a lot of detail. I think that the, the announcement in January by world rugby, on the face of it is a positive, it’s really good to see that they’ve taken action and addressed what is a key issue we feel. But I think the proof will be in the pudding, it’s too early really to say whether it’s going to achieve what we’d like it to achieve, because frankly there hasn’t been any detail released around it yet, which is understandable because they’re only sort of at the interim stage of their review. And also, you know, the full findings I’m sure may not have yet been produced. So it’s, it’s still early days in that respect, but I think it’s certainly something that is necessary that last year there was of course, the controversy surrounding, Francis kean and who was Fiji’s representative on the world rugby council. And as Dan knows, obviously well, and could probably give a bit more detail on it. He was previously convicted of manslaughter and was sort of involved in a few things, which were probably not becoming of someone in a position on, you know, within a world governing body of sports. So that really highlighted the fact that world rugby doesn’t really have procedures in place to deal with the nature of the people who are going to be sitting on these committees and perhaps past conduct. And clearly it’s something that needs to be addressed because, you know, if you look most other major governing bodies where it’s football, cricket, athletics, they all have very stringent processes for selecting people who are going to sit on those decision-making bodies – really pleased that it’s something that’s been picked up on, but there’s still more to be done.

Rob Hanna (13:17):

Yeah, no. And thanks. Thanks for sharing that. Very, very interesting to see how things will evolve over time, and sticking with you, Ben. So the Pacific rugby players welfare recently announced a partnership with Morgan Sports Law. Can you tell us more about what that partnership involves?

Ben Cisneros (13:33):

So that partnership involves us providing legal support to Pacific rugby players, welfare and its members. It’s a partnership that we’re really pleased about. We feel that our values align very closely with the values of Pacific rugby players welfare. Um, as a firm, we’re pretty focused on protecting athletes rights and doing what we can to support athletes. You know, often they end up in weaker positions and so it’s important, we feel to be able to give them proper representation. So it’s a partnership that we’re really, really excited to have. And we’re really looking forward to doing, to doing work with, with Dan and his organization going forward. We’ll see us advise them, we imagine, on issues raised into players’ contracts, but also some of these wider issues, like you mentioned before with the ‘fit and proper person’ test, being an example, these wider governance issues which really affect players across the game, but perhaps particularly those in the more vulnerable positions like those from the Pacific

Rob Hanna (14:27):

And Dan from, from your side, obviously it’s relatively new, this partnership. How do you see it evolving over time? And you know, what, what sort of future plans do you see?

Daniel Leo (14:41):

I don’t think Morgan Sports knew what they were getting into when they first offered to come over here and partner with us. I’ve spent a lot of time on a lot of different issues at all times of the day and night. I’m here in Brisbane and [with Morgan Sports Law] in the UK, trying to touch bases can be difficult, but for me I’ve got no concept at all of anything [legal] – I’ve got no legal background. My background was in communications and journalism and I’ve learnt, sometimes the hard way, to outsource quite well. And, um, when Morgan Sports came to look, we were keen to partner with you guys. It was a godsend really because, so many of the battles that we have, even – and I’m sure we’ll get into this later – but making a documentary for the legal intricacies of doing something, you know, taking on something like that huge. So there’s been a number of different fronts. And the thing about Pacific Island rugby and welfare is it’s a real minefield where you just don’t know what you’re going to get – what’s going to be thrown at you; but the good thing, and I sort of followed Ben a lot on social media and some of the stuff he was saying personally, and then, and then very specific in the sports law is really helpful to us. We actually had a big firm that provided a lot of our support in the initial stages of setting up the organization. We’ve moved on to that being a real support to the players now and, having, having, a company Like Morgan behind us just gives us a real clout really, we just means that every conversation that we have, you know, means it’s not just coming from Dan Leo – we know we’ve got the guns behind us, should we need them. We haven’t had to go down that path many times, but we’ve got some, you know, we’ve got the access there for our players, should we need it. Let’s hope that we don’t, but you’ve got to, I guess, plan plan for the worst. And, you know, , we’re really looking forward to where this, where this relationship is going to go into the future.

Rob Hanna (16:42):

Yeah, no. Well, well said, Ben, you began working as a trainee solicitor last year, I believe. How did you find the process of applying for firms and what factors did you think about that helped you obtain your training contract? As I think a lot of people would be well aware, it’s hard enough getting a training contract in itself and probably even more competitive in the area of sports law.

Ben Cisneros (17:02):

Yeah. I think it’s fair to say that there aren’t that many training contracts in sports law specifically. So I recognize that I’m incredibly fortunate to be in the position that I am as I think I mentioned earlier, but you know, when I, when I was looking for training contracts, I was looking around a wide variety of firms. I had this idea relatively early in my university days that sports law would be something that I’d like to work in. So I was looking at firms that had some expertise in that field, albeit that I realized if I was going to be a trainee, it’s probably not something I would see until a number of years down the line. But actually after my first year at university, I, um, got an internship at Morgan Sports Law, as well as a couple of other sports firmsi which is something I simply got by reaching out, writing emails, asking if they did work experience and that sort of thing. And I was fortunate enough to get an internship at Morgan Sports Law and really the relationship went from there. So although when it came to applying for training contracts, I was looking at a variety of firms and obviously there’s always the lure of the city and what they can offer. I just decided that really I wanted to focus on sports store because I knew it was what my ultimate goal was going to be when the opportunity came up to do a training contract at Morgan Sports Law and sort of get straight into, into the field that I wanted to, to end up in, it was a, it was a no brainer. I also had some experience, you know, at city firm, but I just felt it wasn’t for me, my interest is really in sport and the legal issues around that, rather than some of the more traditional fields of corporate law, perhaps. That’s not to say that, you know, I’m not interested in the commercial aspects of sport and business around that. Of course I am. And that’s actually one of the things I love about working in sports law is it is so varied because although we talk about sports law being a field, what, I mean, what is sports law, it’s just really the law as it applies to sport. Yes, there are sort of really specific niche areas, like I suppose, anti-doping, which is only something that crops up in, in the context of sport, but really there’s such a variety of things that a sports lawyer does. And so that’s really one of the most attractive things about it.

Rob Hanna (19:12):

And that’s interesting. So that leads nicely onto what I was going to ask next, in terms of what’s actually like working as a sports lawyer, what are some of the experiences you’ve had thus far, whilst completing your, your training contract?

Ben Cisneros (19:23):

As you mentioned before, I only started my training contract last year, so I’m only six months in at this point. Um, but really, I suppose the main thing is that it has been very varied. You know, I worked on a variety of matters, whether it’s to do with anti-doping cases, personal injury matters disciplinary cases, it’s really incredibly varied. And I think that’s one of the things I enjoy most about it. Obviously, as a trainee, there are some of the sort of stereotypical trainee tasks you would do, but I think probably the best thing about working for the Morgan Sports Law is it as it’s a small firm, I’m able to take on some more responsibility, more responsibilities than I probably would get at a, at a big city firm, for example. So, you know, I’ve been involved in drafting submissions, witness statements, interviewing clients, et cetera. So yeah, really hands-on uh, which is, which is fantastic. I really enjoy getting stuck in and, and, you know, it’s a challenge because obviously it’s not, not something I’ve done before, but I, I love that. And, um, yeah, it’s, I feel like I’m sort of learning a lot every single day and, and that’s, um, really, I suppose the best you can hope for as a trainee.

Rob Hanna (20:27):

And it’s, it’s great how you’ve managed to combine your passions of sports and law. And I guess people listening in who may have a passion, let’s say in technology, you gave some good insight earlier about how you, you got your training contract through a lot of networking,you know, putting yourself out there. Is there a sort of top tip you would give to aspiring lawyers, or maybe even lawyers looking to transition another practice area that they’re more passionate about that you would give that would work for them?

Ben Cisneros (20:52):

Well, I think you touched on it there. I think it’s about putting yourself out there. I think having the confidence to reach out to people, especially in these, these, sort of socially distant times, just because, just because you can’t meet with people in person doesn’t mean there aren’t networking opportunities out there. In fact, I’ve probably done some of my best networking during the pandemic. Online, people are really accessible these days on social media or I use email as well, but it’s, it’s, you know, it’s not too difficult to make contacts in, particularly in the sports law world. I find that everyone is really open and willing to chat, but I’m sure the same can be said of many sectors. And so I suppose my, biggest tip would be just to be confident to reach out to people when you never know where a conversation might lead or where an email exchange might lead. And, you know, the only way to sort of access new opportunities I guess, is to, to make new connections and try and expand your network. But, also, you know, just trying to develop your expertise, I suppose that might be too strong, but sort of trying to, um, grow, grow your knowledge base in the area you want to work in is obviously really important too, whether it’s, you know, just listening to lots of podcasts about the area or reading up on it, writing about it, you know, obviously for me, that’s, that’s been a major driver of my knowledge base – writing my blog, it’s giving me opportunities because people fortunately read it and enjoyed it, but also the actual process of writing it has allowed me to expand my knowledge base greatly. And that was probably the reason I set it up in the first place was really for myself, it wasn’t to become a blogger or, or to entertain the masses. Absolutely not. I’m not under any illusions that my blog will appeal to the masses, but really it was set up for me to work on my own legal writing and, um, to, yeah, like I mentioned, loads of times to expand my knowledge base and I think that’s, that’s gotta be key. So yeah. Networking and growing your field of expertise.

Rob Hanna (22:53):

Yeah. I love, I love those tips. And the thing you talk about there whilst you were being quite humble in that, you know, if you produce content that will increase your visibility, if you’re putting valuable content out into your ecosystem, visibility will inevitably lead to conversations and that will inevitably lead to opportunities. So yeah, for people who are thinking about starting a blog within your particular areas or whatever, if you produce valuable content, then you will naturally foster relationships. So Dan, we have to move to you and your filmmaking career. So last year, I believe, you released oceans apart, um, greed portrayal, and Pacific Island film in which you discussed, how you sacrificed your own career to confront the corruption that existed in the national union. And you also examined the darker side of the sport. So can you tell us a bit more about it and why you decided to make that film?

Daniel Leo (23:45):

As Ben was saying our goal was to reach the masses, I suppose, particularly around the challenges that we faced as a Pacific rugby players in the Pacific rugby unions and some of the, you know, I guess the injustices that we feel, um, currently exists, um, around areas like, uh, eligibility and, you know, the weighting of the voting system and the council, those sorts of things. You know, through my career, it just struck me speaking to the people who loved rugby, um, who were really, you know, loved the Pacific islands, how little they knew about the, the actual challenges that existed for us and then how then, how they could help, I suppose, once they did become aware of it. So we wanted to do that en masse. And so, uh, the, the concept of the, the Oceans Apart, film took us three years to, to film. This was very difficult at times. Um, you know, culturally again, you know, I mentioned earlier, we don’t really speak up against authority in the Pacific islands, and that’s probably one of the reasons why we are where we are. Is that just no one’s wanted to step up and put their foot outside and sort of out of the boats and test the waters. So, um, yes, it was quite groundbreaking in that respect, but, you know, definitely with the, the motivation of actually trying to make a sport that we all love greater than it already is. And sometimes, you know, fortunately you do have to tell, you know, to look, I guess, introspectively and retrospectively, so we needed to look at the factors that we believed influenced, um, you know, negatively influenced possibly Pacific Island rugby but also some of the cultural aspects around that we need to address within ourselves that are, that are holding us back as well. So hopefully, you know, within, it was quite difficult to do that within a one hour production but it’s something, you know, hopefully raises and inspires a bit more conversation around some of those points that we raised to create the positive change that we need to come out of it for the good of the game.

Rob Hanna (25:44):

Yeah, well, well said, and for people who haven’t seen it, where can they access or get, get visibility of it?

Daniel Leo (25:51):

It’s on Amazon Prime in the UK also on Vimeo worldwide, which is about to premiere in a few of the other countries as well. So we’ve just discussed this here in Australia. And we really want to get that in front of people -it’s only really premiered in the UK and the US at the moment. So we really want to get that in front of all the audiences – in all the rugby playing nations, but also, you know, the, the way that we tried to set it up is that, you could watch it without having to be a rugby fan as well. So even if you’re, if you don’t know anything about rugby, we want people to be able to watch it and still get something, be able to take something from that. And so we had a know, it was a small team. We had a tiny budget, we had a 10,000 pound budget, which is unheard of, you know, and it’s been really well-received – credit to the team, including our friends at Morgan sports who helped us sort out all the legalities, which was a huge task in itself, you know. But we are where we are – a lot of Goodwill from the rugby community has gone into being able to, um, you know, not just the films will be able to be produced, but also for us as an organization to stand on our feet and do the work that we’re doing as well. We couldn’t do it without all the volunteers, all the people that support us, uh, free of charge and, um, still a lot of work to do as, as anyone who’s seen the film probably knows.

Rob Hanna (27:08):

Good stuff. And for anyone wanting to become a member of the Pacific rugby players welfare, how do they do that? And if people want to support the organization, generally, how can they get involved?

Daniel Leo (27:20):

We’ve just opened up membership, so for the first four years of our existence, we were only a membership group based for the players for sort of players themselves. So you had to be a Pacific-Island-based player to be a member – we’ve just opened that up to, uh, to wider membership as well. But for people that want to support, but aren’t necessary players themselves, or even of Pacific Island heritage. So that can all be done via our website, Go on there, you can see a bit more about what we’re about – obviously we don’t have time to get into all of the strands of the stuff that we do here, but there is a, you know, some, some really good work being done there. So anyone that wants to support, – just please, if you can’t do it on now through the website, please contact me directly on either LinkedIn or Twitter, and I’ll make sure that your support is well channelled.

Rob Hanna (28:09):

Good stuff. And Ben finally, we did talk a lot about the rugby and the law blog. So how can people access that and how people, how can people get in touch with you if they’ve got any questions about sports law or, or anything that you’ve discussed today?

Ben Cisneros (28:21):

Yeah. So the blog is It’s also on Twitter, also on Facebook, but I don’t really use Facebook that much, but on Twitter, @rugbyinthelaw, people can find me on Twitter @Ben_Cisneros, also on LinkedIn. And if they have any inquiries about anything, they discussed, feel free to reach out to me by any of those channels or at my email address, which is Brilliant.

Rob Hanna (28:50):

Well, that just leads me to say thank you both so, so much Ben, it’s been an absolute pleasure having you on the show, wishing you both lots of continued success, not only with your partnership, but your own careers and endeavors, but from all of us on the legally speaking podcast over and out.

Daniel Leo (29:05):

Thanks. Thanks. Thanks Rob.

Rob Hanna (29:08):

Thank you for listening to this episode of the legally speaking podcast. If you enjoyed the show and want to help support us, remember to leave us a rating and review on Apple iTunes, you can also support the show and gain exclusive benefits, bonus content, and much more by signing up to our Patreon page, which is Thanks for listening!

Rob Hanna (29:38):

Today’s episode is the end of season 3 of our Legally Speaking podcast. Special thanks to all our amazing guests that are featured on the show. Fear not, we’ll be back in the beginning of April with the launch of our season four. We have so many special guests to feature from Richard Branson’s former lawyer, right the way through to top legal influencers and more. If you want to know about the world of law, careers, legal inspiration, or just curious to know more about law, do let us know over and out.

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