On today’s Legally Speaking Podcast, I am delighted to be speaking with Priya Lele. Priya is a recognised global thought leader in legal technology, innovation and diversity. With experience as a Corporate Finance Lawyer, Director of Legal Transform and Operate at EY, Head of Legal Transformation at a regional law firm in Australia, and Legal Operations Client Solutions Lead at a global law firm in London, she has reshaped how legal services are delivered across continents.

Priya is also the Co-Founder and Chair of ‘She Breaks the Law’, a global community of 4,000 women, collaborating to innovate the legal ecosystem.

So why should you be listening in? 

You can hear Rob and Priya discussing:

– Priya’s Non-Traditional Legal Career & Innovation Journey

– The inspiration behind “She Breaks the Law” 

– How technology, Especially AI, is Transforming Legal Services.

– Diversity, Inclusion and the “No Woman Left Behind” Report

– Leadership, Mentorship, and Advice for Future Legal Professionals

Connect with Priya Lele here – https://www.linkedin.com/in/priya-lele/

Transcript

Priya Lele  0:00  

We want to bring the true stories, the ones that people can relate, the ones that would actually inspire people to say, not, how does she do it, but actually, if she can do it, so can I, if you were to actually start with people, look at the pain points they have or opportunities that actually excite them, but then look at the way they work and the processes they follow, and then think about whether Gen AI could indeed be a solution. So that would be the class in a human centred design we are working. We want to share as different stories as possible, because, as I said earlier, there’s no one way to dealership

Robert Hanna  0:32  

on today’s legally speaking podcast, I’m delighted to be joined by Priya Lele. Priya is a recognised global thought leader in legal technology, innovation and diversity. With experience as a corporate finance lawyer, Director of Legal transform and operator, ey, head of legal transformation at a regional law firm in Australia, and legal operations, Client Solutions lead at a global law firm in London. She has reshaped how legal services are delivered across continents. Priya is also the proud co founder and chair of she breaks the law, a growing global community of 4000 women collaborating to innovate the legal ecosystem. So a very big, warm welcome to the show, Priya.

Priya Lele  1:12  

Thank you so much for having me here, Rob. I’m delighted pleasure,

Robert Hanna  1:17  

and I’m delighted we’ve been able to make this happen over many, many years of planning and trying and before we get into your incredible journey and the amazing work you’re doing in and around the legal community, we do have a customary icebreaker question here on the legally speaking podcast, which is on the scale of one to 1010, being very real. What would you rate the TV series suits in terms of its reality of the law? If you’ve seen it on the scale of one to 10,

Priya Lele  1:42  

I have seen it. I’ve seen it a couple of times, and I reckon I would say two.

Robert Hanna  1:51  

I think I’m being generous. Yeah, that’s a confident and generous two. And need you say any more, because we’ve got a lot to get through today. And I think through that tone and the way you delivered it, you justified your two so to begin with, Priya, would you mind telling our listeners a little bit about your career journey and background?

Priya Lele  2:07  

Of course, I’d be delighted to so by background, I’m a corporate finance lawyer, and I began my journey many moons ago in India as a corporate finance associate, very briefly before I moved to the UK to do my masters from Cambridge and following my NLM, I actually even did a short stint at the university itself as a research fellow, a little known fact, I suppose, before I started my career in the city, I was at Ashford. I was a senior associate, again, mainly focused on private M and A but also did a few bumpy takeovers and listed some companies on the a market back in the day, I then moved to the knowledge management and I often describe my career journey Rob as a combination of serendipity and design, if you will. So my move into knowledge management wasn’t really something I designed. But you see, when I came back from maternity leave, this was in 2009 a year after the financial debacle, and the aftermath was still still unfolding, if you will. As you can imagine, as a Senior Associate in M A in London, it was really hard to get business, so I just busy myself with knowledge management, business management tasks and what have you, and then the next thing you know, surrender viciously. One of the game directors was about to go on maternity leave, and the managing partner turned to me. So that’s how I went into knowledge management. But then, to cut long story short, I realised that was also the time when I could start looking at things differently. It was the time when the entire industry was getting our heads around the more for less challenge, and realising that this wasn’t something that we were going to go back to. We had to fundamentally change how we were doing things. So this was now, by that time, I was at BLP, or bclp, which is when I officially moved from knowledge management into innovation roles. So I guess my non traditional legal role journey began properly at BLV. I was leading the innovation and process design initiative there. We mapped out hundreds of processes, and we were looking at doing things differently, using technology, the right resources, project management tools and what have you. That’s also the time when, again, serendipitously, I suppose, my journey into client consulting began. So whilst we were doing this all internally for our own legal services and how we were delivering it to our clients and how our lawyers were working, clients got a whiff of it, and they loved what we were doing. So they were like, You come and help us with our legal department and help us become more strategic, articulate our value to the business and help us become more efficient and with on our own transformation journey? So we set up a consulting business, actually as part of blps offering. I then go ahead and into HSF help us with three. Hills in London, and I was there for nearly seven years. So I guess majority of my career at HSF and again, through different roles, both looking at things internally, first on on efficiency and on, on legal ops and legal tech, but then doing a lot of client consulting work, working with GCS, working with in house teams. My last role was, I was the Client Solutions legal operations lead for UK us anaemia. I recently moved to Sydney. I say recently, it’s been nearly four years now, but I moved to Sydney as the head of legal transformation at a regional firm, and I got headhunted into big four or EY, which was where my last role and there so my last full time role was a director legal, transform and operate again, working with GCS and in house teams on their transformation journeys. But as of March 2025, I’m an independent consultant, and I focus a lot on my role at Shapeways through

Robert Hanna  5:55  

and what a illustrious career and so many great things that you’ve been able to do. And one thing I would say is you’re early, you know, you’re always early to where the forefront of innovation and change is happening, and that’s what I’ve always admired from afar, in terms of looking at your journey. You touched on legal services there, I want to go a little bit deeper, because you’ve worked with some of the world’s biggest law firms. You’ve just mentioned, obviously, corporate legal departments. What’s been the biggest shift you’ve seen in how legal services are delivered today to perhaps when you first started out?

Priya Lele  6:23  

Wow, that’s a great question. And I, I’m gonna give away my age here. I started. I started nearly a quarter of a century ago. Yeah, 2001 it’ll be 25 years next year. And I, I can tell you for sure that one of the things that’s fundamentally changed, I believe, in so many years, is probably the best way to describe it, is how the legal ecosystem has evolved, and as a profession, we’ve become more mature in how we deliver services, and the consumers have become more mature in how they consume services. So whether that be obviously through the advancement of technology or process, approaches led approaches, or the advancement of alsps, but it’s fundamentally changed today. Back in the day when I qualified legal services were still exclusively the domain of qualified lawyers working in very traditional ways and actually coming out of law school, back in the day, we didn’t even have a private practice versus in house option. I think it was pretty much expected to go private practice first, even before you did in house option. Whereas, as a result of this evolution and maturity for profession today, there are so many more career paths available, and there are so many allied professionals that work hand in glove with law, and I think that’s the most vulnerable change, and it’s

Robert Hanna  7:44  

exciting, isn’t it? I think back to none of our listeners will know, obviously, why I do this. My late grandfather ran his own law firm in the 1950s very traditional, and scaled that out, and all the things that you see today just didn’t exist. But that’s the you know, if you have the growth mindset, embrace, speak to people like yourself, around people that are curious, innovating, then there’s so many opportunities ahead of you. So let’s go on to transformation then, because you’re at the forefront of transforming legal service delivery with AI and automation, of course, we have to talk about these things in the world that we live today. So can you share an example of a successful project and what makes transformational it makes it so transformation in your view, sure.

Priya Lele  8:22  

I’ll share an early example. Actually, we’ll come to genai later, I’m sure. But let me share an early example. This was back in the mid 2010s and we were looking at redesigning the way we were delivering M and A to our clients. And in particular, we were looking at how cross border MNA could be done more effectively, more efficiently, more collaboratively. So we created what we used to call these the deal hubs. And the way I would describe it, it is like, imagine that there’s like an app on your phone, except it wasn’t on your phone, but essentially a single page where you could go in, you could create your projects, you could upload all your documents, you could start your DDP process, you could allocate it, you could create workflows, and you could make sure that you’re actually collaborating in real time, because these were collaborative technology platforms, so you could all work wherever you are is picked away you are in the world at what time zone. You don’t have to worry about version control. You don’t have to block each other’s email inboxes with with multiple emails and things like that. And also early generation AI, which was back then, very much machine learning or second generation AI, but essentially helping them to segregate to, you know, go in there, in the in the DD room, and really look at and segregating the things, tagging things, making sure that workflows are working, et cetera, which was quite revolutionary at the time, right? It now sounds very basic, but it was quite revolutionary at the time. And also we had automated the generation of SBA and the suite of documents that go with it. So it was really like a quite. Different way of working. My in my view, the thing that made it transformative or revolutionary isn’t so much that we were using new technologies and stitched them all together, or what have you, it was how it fundamentally changed, how always were working, and how it made them work better. So for me, if something is transformative or reformative, if it is actually enhancing the way people are working. So not only were they saving times, reducing email traffic and what have you, but they were actually working in better ways and seamlessly across jurisdictions. Yeah,

Robert Hanna  10:38  

and talking seamlessly across time zones and jurisdictions. It’s evening for you. It’s morning for us here. And I think you give us a great example there, though, as well. You talk about, you know, we talk a lot about Tech for Good on the show, in terms of productivity, efficiency, but also in terms of legal professionals, you know, generally, who embrace technology. This is good in terms of reducing the overall well being stress. And you know that long hours and things that have generally been a real problem within profession for year on year. But obviously, you know, with technology, we’re for it. It’s amazing, but we still advocate for the human side as well. And you know, again, our listeners will be sick and tired of me talking about it’s not B to B, B to C anymore. It’s H to H, it’s human to human connection. And you talk a lot around human centred design, and particularly in legal innovation. So for our listeners who might be less familiar with this, what does it actually mean, and why is it important?

Priya Lele  11:24  

Oh, it’s so close to my heart, and I know it’s close to your heart as well. So thank you for bringing that up. Human centred or design thinking principles would simply are essentially a very powerful problem solving methodology that put humans at the centre of the entire process, in terms of, very briefly, the history it obviously came from the world of physical design, and often the iconic Apple mouse has given us an example of early example of using human centred design to create something that was quite revolutionary and different at the time. And IDEO is often credited with starting the new generation of design thinkers, if you will. And of course, legal, in terms of legal, the Stanford legal Design Lab is quite a great organisation and initiative. But in legal innovation, in particular how it helps, and how I’ve used it over the years, is that you could literally apply this methodology, this way of thinking, this mindset, to create solutions that are new and evolving, to create solutions that because you are involving humans or users from the process of identifying the problem through identifying or ideating solutions, to prototyping and then creating and actually delivering. You’re creating something that sticks quite often. The classic people process technology formula sounds more cliche than it is, and people look at it just the other way around. So talking about Gen AI, most often, people would say, right, we need to do something with Gen AI. Then they’ll consider, right, so what are use cases that we could apply? And then lastly, they consider, now, how is this going to impact people? Little wonder that it doesn’t stick. If you were to actually start with people, look at the pain points they have, or opportunities that actually excite them, but then look at the way they work and the processes they follow, and then think about whether Gen AI could indeed be a solution. So that would be the classic sort of, you know, human centred design we are working they would get far better

Robert Hanna  13:36  

results. And it’s been talked about before. You know, pi is just as important as AI that people intelligent understanding what’s important to the individuals and working that way. And also it just helps with adoption. It helps with them feeling seen, heard, all of the great things. So let’s stick with worldwide legal innovation, because it’s only going in one direction. You’ve led that across UK, Australia and beyond. Does legal innovation then differ from region to region, and what lessons have you learned from working across these different areas?

Priya Lele  14:07  

I’m gonna answer the latter bit first, and then come back to the first bit, if you will. Okay, what I’ve learned from leading transformation innovation in different parts of the world is actually two things, first and foremost, and this shouldn’t come as a surprise, but innovation is a journey. It’s a continuum, and there’s no one size fits all, because what could be innovative to one organisation could be business as usual to another, right? So that’s, that’s my first thing, and second thing is, because it is so based on an organization’s individual journey and depends on where they are. It’s less to do with regional nuances than to do with where that particular organisation is, and it’s factors like whether they have the resources, whether they have the buy in, whether they. You know, the size, the organisational culture, the agility required that matters more to the success of the innovation initiative that you’re leading, rather than the region where they belong. That said coming to your first page, whether there are actually any differences, I hate to make blanket or general comments. However, there are obviously some macro level trends or differences, right? We see in regions. So classically, for instance, in the US, we know that corporate legal departments and legal operations, in particular, large legal departments, are ahead of the curve simply because they have the size, they have the bandwidth. They’ve been doing this for a long time. So definitely ahead of the curve, and they’re more innovative than, let’s say, their counterparts in law firms, whereas traditionally, in the US, sorry, in the UK and Australia, for obvious reasons, for the market pressures, the market size, the law firms have had to evolve and become more innovative. And often legal departments actually look to law firms for advice on innovation than they would in the US, right? Because of the Silicon Valley and the VC investments, we see a lot of investment there, and huge legal tech ecosystem. UK is quite unique and very aggressive as well, because with initiatives like law tech UK, with initiatives like Innovate UK, we see a lot of investment being driven in legal tech, which is which is really good. That way Australia is lagging behind. I don’t see that level of support here. And obviously it’s a very small market. Having said that, one of the reasons that I was actually driven to move to Australia, beyond the weather, of course, was that I honestly believe that, given the size of the market and things, I believe that the legal tech and innovation ecosystem here punches above its weight, so to speak. And there are a lot of household names today I can say within legal at least, that actually originated from Australia or New Zealand, and they’re now global. So I guess each of the regions have their strengths and weaknesses, and it’s just been a I consider myself extremely lucky, as he was saying at the initial, you know, stage of my my interview, that in my career, I’ve had the opportunity to work across continents, across countries and across different sizes of organisations. I’ve just been lucky, I suppose.

Robert Hanna  17:23  

Yeah. And one thing you touched on there was ecosystems, right? And I want to kind of go a bit deeper on that, because, as you said, you’ve had these roles at large firms, corporations, you know, including building sort of really innovative ecosystems. So to maybe help our listeners who might be thinking about this or wanting to get more integrated, how do you create an environment? Where are there things that actually change and thrive?

Priya Lele  17:44  

I think for me, that begins with, first of all, acknowledging that change is hard, right? Yeah, let’s let’s not get ourselves about it. I mean, as human beings, we actually resist change. And I know lawyers get a lot of you know, bad words about being non innovative or not not change it. Actually, I don’t think that’s anything particularly unique about law. I think change is hard. So first and foremost, I think it starts from acknowledging where people are. And so just, you know, baselining, so to speak, where where people are. This helps with with a couple of things. First of all, it helps with articulating where you are and where you want to get to. And it also helps later on in terms of measuring impact and showing impact. So it’s very important to acknowledge where you are and start your journey there that I’d say, define the purpose. I’m a huge fan of Simon Sinek, of course. But define your Why? Why do you want to change? And make sure that you communicate that across the stakeholders, and you get the buy in quite often. What I see is that change is led by the top level, the xx, and of course, they want to change, but it’s not often communicated enough, or not, often defined enough with the people that it actually impacts, and that’s what creates friction. So this goes back to the human design, or human centric approach. If you have get the buy in from the grassroots, who are going to be impacted either you get better results. So having defined your baseline, having defined your purpose, the next thing I would say is you need to find your champions and your earlier doctors. I call them the walking, talking billboards. Yes, I love that, because storytelling words, right? Storytelling works as human beings. We’re driven by that, and what better than to get another human being who like them, who they can relate to associate to telling them how effective it has been, either for themselves or their clients. And my last tip, and I think you’re going to like that as well, if you like my walking, talking billboard, is, I call this the magic key, and that is your principle of your key stakeholders. Now in the case of law. From lawyers, because I’ve worked with both, right? So in the case of law firm lawyers, it’s your plans. In the case of corporate departments, it’s your C suite or your business stakeholders. I call them the magic key, because, you know the classic, the way to an attorney’s heart is through their plan is absolutely true. So the minute you can get them involved in your innovation or change initiative. I have seen this. The stubborn of the people, the stubborn of the lawyers get involved.

Robert Hanna  20:29  

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Priya Lele  22:05  

that’s a great question. You know how I told my background and my journey in law? What I didn’t mention is it’s been a bit paradoxical. Okay, so I come from a legal family, my grandfather, my lawyer, my sorry father and even my mother, later on, was a lawyer, and yet, coming from a legal family, I had to fight my way into law school. My father, a successful lawyer himself, was dead, opposed it came from a very good place. Of course, he loved me to bits. The reason he didn’t want me to take up law as a profession is because he said, and I believe he genuinely believed that law was not a women friendly profession. I was obviously rebel. I got my way. I got my way into law school. But I guess somewhere that desire was always there to prove my dad wrong and to help create law become a more women friendly profession. And to be honest, he wasn’t very far off. I mean, this was the 90s and, and I was born in a, you know, late 70s, and this was India in litigation, and he was probably not that far off. And he said it wasn’t really a trendy profession. But even in my own career journey, as I, you know, chartered my own path, and I moved from countries and continents, and I moved from traditional legal practice into innovation rules, or I moved in different environments. I often felt alone. I even felt like an outsider. So I guess she breaks the law. Came from this desire to create a community where everybody belonged, where all women from diverse backgrounds could come together and share authentically, learn from each other and develop together. It was about breaking those barriers, but not alone together. And then it was just a chance meeting to be honest, at the end of an innovation conference in London, I happened to meet my co founders and share our views, and we just clicked, so to speak. So we started, she breaks the law with two main purposes. One was to try and break down barriers and silos. Because often, you know, there are this lawyers and not even allied professional lawyers and non lawyers, and we hate that. Obviously, we need all to work together. There are also organisations that are competitive. There’s not much collaboration. So we wanted to break down cycles between disciplines, between organisations, between geographies, and the second was we wanted to shine a light on relatable role models, often especially when it comes to women leadership in law the narrative tends to be quite negative. Obviously. People look at the leadership level in law firms and inequity positions in particular, which is quite awful, frankly, but that just tells one part of the story. We believe that leadership is in more than one forms, and we want to shine a light on. All forms of leadership. So that’s how she bracelet was born. I love the

Robert Hanna  25:04  

origin of so many things that I’ve been told things back to actually launching a legally speaking podcast in terms of, no one’s going to be interested in legal podcasts, way back when, when we started, or it’s not possible to launch a podcast, or it’s not the right thing to be doing, and you know, to your father to say something to you, and it kind of sparks something in you, and it’s kind of driven you forward to be the change, because if you can’t see it, you need to go out there and be the change. And you know, again, listeners will be very familiar with me talking about we is greater than me. And if you want to go fast, obviously go along alone. But if you want to go further, obviously you need to go together. And I think you’re doing a great job of that with she breaks the law. I want to go on to she shares now, because this is a part of your community. It’s a signature initiative, I believe. So would you mind telling us a little bit more about

Priya Lele  25:45  

it, of course. And before I do that, though, just something very similar to what you said, there are a couple of philosophies or mottos I believe that have really inspired me and my own journey, which is, like you say, the go far and fast, be it. The other thing is, you know, you can do so little alone, and you can do so much together. Hollen Keller’s, you know, quote, and she shares, I guess, is all about, we rise by lifting others. So that’s another one which is very close to my heart. And yes, she shares, is one of our signature initiatives. And it’s actually one of the one that’s most closest to my heart, because we have number of things the network, obviously, which is, she connects, she develops. We do a lot of skills based programmes and trainings as well. But she shares, is an initiative where we it’s all about that, you know, shining a light on relatable role model. And we purposely look to bring those stories to light that are both well known, but probably known in a different way, and also unknown. What I mean is often we see successful women, and we think about them like, wow, I have no idea how she does it. Like, amazing. Three children, three businesses. It’s impossible. I can never do it right? And that’s often not the truth. The truth is she’s just about had as messy, if not messy, a life as you have, but she’s stuck around somehow. She’s been resilient. She’s either found mentors or she’s done something differently. So we want to bring not the airbrushed version, but we want to bring the true stories, the ones that people can relate, the ones that would actually inspire people to say, not, how does she do it? But actually, if she can do it, so can I? So that’s what she shares is all about. And this year, for instance, for our International Women’s Day initiative, we asked for nominations, and we’re recognising six change makers, and again, getting them to share their stories. And they come from such diverse backgrounds. You know, one is a legal tech founder in India. Another is a is a community builder in the UK. And yet somebody else is, is one that created a movement within a law firm in the US. So we, we want to share as different stories as possible, because, as I said earlier, there’s no one way to leadership,

Robert Hanna  27:53  

no, and it’s beautiful what you’re what you’re doing, I have to say, and we fully support all the amazing work that you’re you’re doing. One thing I want to talk about now is the no woman left behind report. I believe in 2024 you published a very influential report, which was obviously no woman left behind, closing the age under gap in law, in collaboration with the next 100 years women in law, founded by obviously previous guests of the show and future president law, Society of England, World of England, Wales, the wonderful Dana. Denise Smith, OBE I should add, and also link laters, what was the purpose of the report and what were some of the most surprising results from it?

Priya Lele  28:32  

Wow, yes. And first and foremost, a big shout out to Dana for everything she does. A huge fan and just privileged to be to have collaborated with her and love everything she does. So what inspired the purpose of the report run and the purpose report, what got us thinking about this and why we even did this research, was a couple of things. There was, this was early 2024, when we started looking at this thing. And so literally, just a year and a bit after chat GPT was unleashed on the world, so to say. And already some very concerning trends were coming out of Rob So in sort of published reports, for instance, from Berkeley, Harvard and Stafford, is it? There’s a huge report, which is not just in legal, but actually across professions and across geographies. And it noted, and I quote it said, that right from mothers in Mumbai to managers in Madrid, women are less likely to use Gen AI. So it was across the professions, and I was worrying, and actually within our own legal and sort of network as well we were seeing in those early days, especially a lot of the noise, a lot of the articles being written or, you know, people talking about it, whether at conferences or on LinkedIn or whatever, a lot of that was coming from men, not women. And that made us really concerned, because we know now and we actually have just. Scratched the surface. None of us actually know the transformative power of AI in our profession, but we all know that it is going to transform our profession. And if indeed, women’s voices are being lost, then that’s a huge concern. It’s just going to increase the gendered app that is already there. So that’s why we did the report, and that’s why we published the report, right? What surprised me more than surprised me? There are these are things that concern me, and therefore we published a report, we did a second survey. We’re about to share some of the insights from that. I hate to say and admit it, but there is definitely the gender gap, and it persists even in law, right? But what’s more concerning, a little bit surprising is that, and this is more anecdotal, so some of our respondents have observed that the gap is lesser when we look at younger users, for instance, but when we look at older users, some of our respondents observed that actually the gap is more or that older men seem to be more involved in experimenting, in developing AI. Now that concerns me on a number of levels, but especially because, as we know, this impacts again. Goes back to the leadership one. Goes back to the decision, you know, making point, if senior women aren’t able to be as involved in in the way that AI is impacting legal industry, it’s going to widen further the gap. What our concern is, and what keeps me up at night, Rob, is that AI, literacy or efficiency in AI is going to become yet another hidden barrier, if you will, to career progression in law. Therefore, I’m so passionate about this, right? The other thing that sort of surprised me and concerns me more is, obviously we are all as lawyers, concerned with AI biases, with hallucinations that AI does, right? But what I hadn’t appreciated until I read these responses, and then I could relate to them, was that actually women are normally more impacted with AI biases, as you can imagine, but also they feel that they’d be less forgiven if AI makes mistakes because of gender related disparity in our judgement. They already feel that they have to, you know, as a woman, as a diverse woman, especially, I’ve experienced that all my life, and when I read those responses, I could relate to them. I’ve always felt the pressure to work that much harder, to promote myself, that much more to never make a mistake, but it obviously doesn’t happen, right? And so women feel that if they use AI that actually makes mistakes, they’d be less forgiving than their male counterparts. This is, this is concerning to me, on again, a number of levels,

Robert Hanna  32:43  

and this is why we’re very passionate on the show about having the conversations that matter, and having the voices like yourself that are pushing for change, trying to raise awareness, but also find solutions. I think it’s important anyone can flag a problem, but people actually go out there and really build and try to work towards things. So we commend the work you’re doing. And as my late grandfather said, the person who never made a mistake never existed. We’re all human. You know, we’re all going to make mistakes, and we all should be treated equal in that regard. Okay, let’s talk about the future. You’ve done a heck of a lot already in terms of she breaks the law, but I know you, and I know that people around you that you know momentum is building, so you’re not going to sit still. So what do the future plans look like? Tell us as much as you can.

Priya Lele  33:24  

Sure. I’d love to, I’d love to tell that, and then I’d love to come back to the point that you made earlier about actually doing something. But anyway, let me talk about future of she breaks lawn. What plans I have in the in the medium term? I suppose I want to focus more, and now that I am an independent consultant, focusing more on my role at she breaks the law, I’m finally able to do more, I think, with she breaks the law. It’s been six years since I started it, and of course, we’ve come from strength to strength, but I want to focus more on our initiatives, like she shares. I want to focus more on in person, events, and at the back of this report, at she breaks the law, we’ve started the women in legal initiative, and I want to host some round tables, both in person and virtually. I want to continue the dialogue, because going back to your point about action, our research or or this effort is not just academic curiosity, right? It’s to actually spark conversation, but then to actually see change happen. And with that see change to happen, I think that it’s not just about advocacy. It’s about actual initiatives. It’s about building that momentum together. So that’s would be my focus in the sort of medium to long term, and very, very futuristic. Have some kind of really big plans that I don’t want to really spoil right now, but also, you know, conscious that it’s just what month two or month three. So, you know, we’ve got to go slow, and it’s about building sustainable community. Because obviously, the way we’ve had hyper growth of the community, it’s been really hard. To service the community, to do as much as I would have liked to. So for now, we’re not I’m not focused on growth. I’m focused on sustainability. And I would love to partner with organisations, with people such as yourselves, who feel passionately, who share our values, and, you know, vision, so that we can do more.

Robert Hanna  35:18  

Yeah, absolutely. And look, collaboration is domination. We talk about it all the time here. And you know, it’s great that you are doing that. And we always say, look, ideas die at the graveyard unless you take action. And you are taking action and you’re going out there. And yeah, I absolutely agree everything you’re doing is wonderful. I love your approach to doing it as well. I think that’s important, particularly in legal and building trust, to actually get the adoption, to get that traction, to get the momentum. One thing you touched on earlier, it’s something I’m very passionate about, and I encourage our listeners to really go out there and get particularly from a young age, a 360 board of mentors in my views, from underneath you to decide if you above you different industries, different verticals, different horizontals, but you’re passionate about this and empowering others. So tell us a little bit more about what would be your top three tips for students exploring, perhaps alternative career paths, rather than a traditional route into law. As we mentioned before, there’s so much out there now.

Priya Lele  36:11  

Well, there is so much out there. And I really, really, first of all, I, you know, I’m excited in terms of the new students. And I think that’s something that, actually, I was discussing with somebody the other day, how, especially with the ambit of Gen AI, there seems to be a lot of scare mongering going on, you know, for the lack of better word or concern around the future of the profession, or how are we going to train people, or what are we going to do? I think we need to focus on the opportunity that this offers, rather than focusing on, you know, the limitations or how we’re going to train up our next generation lawyers, the reality is, actually the next generation of lawyers will come up with things that we haven’t thought about. You’re still thinking in very traditional ways. So anyway, in terms of if young people are looking at different career paths, I think they they should first and foremost start by exploring what those parts are, by meeting up as many people, having as many coffees and emails. And I realise it’s not just me, but everybody I speak to, they do go out and they want to help the youngsters, right? Everybody wants to take out time as much as they can to help out. So people will be surprised if they, even if they reach out to people you know, cold, so to speak, on LinkedIn or an Insta or wherever you are, and chances are, at least one out of 10 people might respond. And you go out for that coffee, you find out more about what they’re doing, what inspired them, what advice would they give their younger self and the likes? And then look at your own skills and strengths, right? Look at what excites you. Look at what, where you need to grow more, what, what area do you want to learn more? And things like that. Because often this goes back to the why point. Because often people just want to, oh, I’ve just heard about this. I might do it. Oh, my mate is doing that, so I might do it. And I often question that’s that’s okay, but you have also got to understand, I have a bit of self awareness before you go and explore these parts, to get the most out of it. And then my final authority would be not to limit themselves, not to think that, you know, the traditional way again, when back in the day, when I started in law, or you started in law, it was pretty much a sort of, you know, careers were looked at as a ladder. Today it’s, it’s a jungle gym. So explore, you know, explore a bit, go on and try different career paths. And people might say, well, it’s easier said than done, applying for jobs, this and the other, but volunteering, getting an assignment, getting an engagement, getting an internship, there are so many easier ways to try different things and to actually, because one learns the most by actually doing things. So I would encourage people to try do that.

Robert Hanna  38:50  

Yes, so many things. I’m just nodding here in agreeing with everything you said. I think the first point I’d pick up on there is don’t always think about, what if it goes wrong, what if that job won’t exist anymore? Think about what is rather than what is. What is the opportunity of actually taking this? What is, you know, where we can go? And I think if you flip that mindset rather than what if, it’ll be great. And absolutely agree. NSN, I took talk to everyone and all people that I mentor and work with. Never stop networking. Get out there. And the most powerful question you can ask anyone is, can you help me? I think if you offer that people most likely more more times than often, you’ll be response to actually, yes. And don’t fall into this shiny object system where everyone’s doing something. So I need to go look at that. Come back to what’s important to you, like you said, or what you’re passionate about, or what you’re trying to do. And I love that you talk about self awareness and self accountability, because one of my mentors said very early on, Rob, start your businesses, go out there, but if it’s meant to be it’s up to me. It’s going to be hard. You need to take self accountability, to be self aware, have high levels of EQ, and get out there and get busy. And I’ve always stayed true to that, because at the end of the day, it’s very easy to point that finger, but there’s more fingers pointing back at you. So love all that wisdom you just shared. And one more question before we let you go today, you. You have so many leadership qualities, which you’ve been able to articulate brilliantly over this whole podcast, and you served as the advisory board of Cambridge. Women in law. Have been a speaker at so many prestigious events around the world, and won an array of accolades that were too long to mention. So having worked across multiple jurisdictions, quality, what are the some of the key qualities you would say are essential for good quality leadership.

Priya Lele  40:24  

You know, leadership has always been about people, right? But now more than ever, that is central, yeah, in the advent of Gen AI, in the advent of technology, when we really don’t know what careers or what skills are going to be important in the future. One thing we are very sure about is human skills are going to be even more important than ever before, and leadership has been the Paramount example of that. As we’ve you know all I’m sure used or said or experienced ourselves, leadership is fundamentally about developing others. It’s not about managing people, and it’s fundamentally about finding those qualities in people and helping them achieve what they want to achieve, right? So it’s never been, you know, a leader is never about the person who’s the brightest or the cleverest. It’s always been EQ over IQ. But I think in today’s day, there’s another cue that we need to be aware of and we need to nurture, which is the AQ, or the adaptive adaptability quotient. So not only do you need a good EQ, emotional, intelligent, empathise with people, to help them, you also need to be adaptable, because nobody knows what the future is, and it’s evolving so fast that to be a good leader, you need to have that ability to adapt yourself and to help your team adapt. That, I think is going to be very crucial,

Robert Hanna  41:50  

yeah, and I think you need to genuinely care, and it’s well known, the only constant in business is change, right? And you need to be open to adaptability. And I guess maybe just one quick follow up on that, because it’s a great point you’ve just raised. What would you say to someone who is ready for a change, but perhaps Perhaps hesitant to make that move, be that in a career, or starting their business or looking to disrupt in legal,

Priya Lele  42:11  

just do it. Yeah, you know, like, thank you. Just do it. I mean, this goes back to the I think one of the things that we want to chat about, which is, you know, often I believe that what stops people from doing what they really need to do is often themselves. Yeah, it’s very few times that actually there aren’t opportunities available, or that they don’t have the necessary skills, or what have you. It’s often that they put their own boundaries. They decide where the boundaries are or what the limitations are. So if you’re ready for change, and just hesitating, now is as good a time as ever, especially people looking and making career changes. And, you know, coming off like we discussed, my old career path, from traditional practice into non traditional back in the day. You know, coming off fear and enrollment, taking a salary cut, and possibly, you know, reduced prestige, or, you know, it was, it was different. These rules were considered support rules. That has changed. The narrative has changed today. These rules are very strategic rules, very important. Rules play key roles and and and considered equally important, if not more, as as traditional legal practice. So I think now is the perfect time to make that change.

Robert Hanna  43:27  

Yeah, exactly. Not one day, day one, right? And I love that. Use the Nike example, because a lot of people say, you know, if it was just do it, it wouldn’t have worked. The just is the key word on that tagline, just do it. It’s so, so powerful and Done is better than perfect. Perfect never gets done. It’s better to start scrappy and start having some perfect action inaction. Oh, sorry, imperfect action over perfect inaction. And I always try to get people to frame it in terms of look at it as you’re being selfish by not actually doing this, not actually going out there, if you believe in something, can make something better, and you can actually go out there and do good. I think it’s a selfish act to not take action on that and hopefully switch that mindset for you, because if you don’t risk anything, you potentially risk everything. This has been an absolute masterclass period. Really, really enjoyed learning more about your story, and obviously, she breaks the law. We’ve been following for a very long time. We have so many mutual friends in and around the world of legal. I’m sure we’ll collaborate more in the future. And if our listeners want to follow you will learn more about she breaks the law and the initiatives you’re getting up to. Where can they go to find out more? Feel free to share any websites or any social media handles. We’ll also share them this very special episode for you too.

Priya Lele  44:30  

I would love to, I would love to share our LinkedIn group and company details, and of course, I would encourage people to reach out to me directly at Priya, at she breaks the law.org

Robert Hanna  44:41  

There we go. Well, lastly, just need to say, once again, Priya, thank you ever so much for joining me here today on the legally speaking podcast, sponsored by Clio from all of us, wishing you lots of continued success for now, though, over and out, thank you for listening to this week’s episode. If you like the content here, why not check out our world. World leading content and Collaboration Hub, the legally speaking club, over on Discord. Go to our website, www.legallyspeakingpodcast.com. There’s a link to join our community there, over and out.