Raising The Bar – Nikki Alderson – S2E6

This week on the Legally Speaking Podcast, our host Rob Hanna is joined by the inspirational Nikki Alderson! Nikki is a Specialist International Corporate & Executive Coach, who supports law firms, chambers & other legal organisations retain female talent & empowers female lawyers to achieve their career ambitions.

She doesn’t stop there, she is also a Former Criminal Barrister, Active Speaker and most recently an Amazon Best-Selling Author for her amazing book, Raising The Bar! We will be delving deep into how Nikki’s journey began, what inspired her to write her first book and why you should consider coaching, as it can help you to achieve your career goals.


[0:00:00.0] Rob Hanna: Welcome to the Legally Speaking Podcast powered by Kissoon Carr. I’m your host Rob Hanna. This week, I am delighted to be joined by the wonderful Nikki Alderson. Nikki is a specialist international corporate and executive coach who supports law firms, chambers and other legal organization retain female talent and empowers female lawyers to achieve their career ambitions. She doesn’t stop there, she is also a full criminal barrister, active speaker and most recently Amazon best-selling author for her amazing book, the Raising the Bar. So, welcome Nikki.

[0:00:34.3] Nikki Alderson: Thank you, it’s good to be here, Rob.

[0:00:35.7] Rob Hanna: And I mean it’s a real pleasure to have yet another highly esteemed guest on the podcast so thank you for travelling down from the north to be with us. But before we dive into all of that, we do have our customary question on the podcast and which is Suits related as you may know by now. So, on the scale of one to ten, 10 being very real, how real do you rate the hit series, Suits?

[0:01:00.7] Nikki Alderson: I’ve got to really disappoint you here because I have never seen it and I think the reason why is because from an early age when I was doing training and so on, I was watching This Life. I’m really showing my age now. At bar school in London I was watching This Life and then recently I watched Silk with Maxine Peake who I think was a great female role model in there. But then after that it was really [Unclear] [0:01:24.9] Holiday, so I have never seen Suits. I’m sorry.

[0:01:27.6] Rob Hanna: So, it would be a zero based on the fact you can’t offer an opinion without seeing it, right?

[0:01:31.3] Nikki Alderson: Absolutely, I’m sorry, yeah.

[0:01:34.8] Rob Hanna: Yeah, fair enough, fair enough. So I mentioned at the top there you have come down from a city which is very dear to me. I studied there, I have made life-long friends there in Leeds but I have to confess I haven’t been back for a year or two, so what am I missing out on up there?

[0:01:47.7] Nikki Alderson: Oh, you know, Leeds is great. I mean what I love about Leeds is because it’s so near to the country you can actually get out and go for walks and so on. And I’m actually from Sheffield originally but it seemed like a natural returned home to Yorkshire, so yeah you should come up sometime.

[0:02:01.9] Rob Hanna: I will, I will and so we have to kind of digest that whole introduction because you keep very busy but let’s try and go back to sort of the beginning. Did you always wanted to be a barrister?

[0:02:12.7] Nikki Alderson: No, I wanted to be a journalist when I was 14 or so at school. And I had a work placement at the Sheffield Star where I ended up going to courts with the court reporter and what was interesting about it was at that age, they directed that I couldn’t really- it wasn’t suitable that I go in the Crown Court because of a lot of the serious cases that they were dealing with. So, I went to the magistrates’ court and was dealing with bus vandalism.

[0:02:45.0] Rob Hanna: Okay.

[0:02:46.5] Nikki Alderson: And it was because this journalist seemed very inspired by this topic which didn’t really inspire me that I thought you know what, I could do better than the journalist and I could be a lawyer. So, that’s what started it for me.

[0:02:55.3] Rob Hanna: Okay and what was your specialist area as a barrister?

[0:02:58.4] Nikki Alderson: I did criminal law and I practised criminal law from well, the word go really in 1996 until I finished in 2017.

[0:03:08.4] Rob Hanna: Okay and I know what did you particularly enjoy most about that position in your time as a barrister?

[0:03:15.0] Nikki Alderson: I think making a difference was really important to me and particularly when I got involved with the voluntary work in Jamaica just knowing that you really were affecting somebody’s life and it was such an important job to do. And that for me, I really felt very passionate about the work that I did but obviously with that comes great responsibility as well. So, it wasn’t without stresses as it got to be said.

[0:03:39.5] Rob Hanna: Yeah and you touched on it there your pro-bono work in Jamaica supporting the Death Row Attorneys, just tell us a little bit more about that because that’s really like you said it’s gripping to hear and I want to know – I’m sure listeners would be fascinated to know more.

[0:03:53.0] Nikki Alderson: Well, it was really life affirming work. I went when I was about eight years call, and I got involved in a bar human rights project where you went out for about two months at a time and we were supporting the attorneys there who were representing people who faced the death penalty if they were convicted. And whilst I was there, I was the first barrister who actually got involved in a full contested case from start to last.

And unfortunately, it was one of those as well where even just reading a case you could see that there was not enough evidence to base the conviction. And during the two weeks that I was in the court, I observed inadmissible evidence going before the court, witness intimidation, jury novel-ing, judicial bias, you name it whatever could have gone wrong for those two men on trial, it went wrong for them.

And at the end of it, two weeks later the jury returned two guilty verdicts and both of them were sentenced to death. And just being involved in that and one of them in particular being involved in his case and knowing, having got to know his mother, it was harrowing, absolutely harrowing. But it didn’t end there, I then continued to help whilst I was in Jamaica and also whilst I was back in the U.K. but I also got wind that both of them had been very seriously assaulted whilst on death row.

And the man that I had been representing was stabbed 23 times by other inmates. Possibly with guards, you know turning a blind eye and I just thought, “Wow, I really have to get this guy out.” And I met him after the event he just being retuned back to the prison from hospital where he had been on life support for days if not weeks. And I will never ever forget that image of the man coming to me with bandages and gauzes all over him and absolute fear just being returned to the place where he nearly lost his life and with no guarantees at all of his safety. But he said to me the next time I visited him when he was slightly better, “You ought to write a book about this?” And I you know said, “no promises” But it –

[0:06:11.4] Rob Hanna: Planted a seed.

[0:06:12.1] Nikki Alderson: Planted a seed, exactly, yeah.

[0:06:13.6] Rob Hanna: Yeah, good for you so and we’ll definitely come on to that of course but whilst you were a barrister what challenges did you face and how did you overcome them because I guess that will lead on to our further discussion as well, but you know what was some of the challenges you found you faced?

[0:06:29.3] Nikki Alderson: The one major challenge for me was that I was involved mostly with child sex cases. Now, that was a choice because I became a grade four prosecutor. But the reality is that those sorts of cases are very harrowing to deal with and the subject matter doesn’t exactly thrill you. I didn’t particularly enjoy what I was doing even though obviously the outcome was important for the rest of it.

The second challenge I think I faced was then when I came on to be a mother and I had two children and returned to the bar. Both times full time because I had to do that. You don’t have any part time options in the criminal bar. And nor frankly, do I think there should be because I don’t see how crown courts would operate on a part-time basis. However, it was at that point that I realized that I couldn’t do my job at the level I was doing it at and service the family as well in the way that I wanted to.

Particularly, at that point I think by baby two, my husband was still working away in London and it was hard to juggle everything. And that’s a common problem with a lot of my clients as well.

[0:07:39.5] Rob Hanna: Yeah, and that’s really… thanks for sharing that. So, I think that’s very important and I guess if you were to go back and look at your younger self, regarding juniors looking at going into the law. What advice would you give to them because I understand your part wasn’t all conventional, right?

[0:07:54.1] Nikki Alderson: I had some advice. I was doing a pupillage years ago, maybe even when I was about 16 or 17. And the guy who was showing me the ropes at the barrister chambers in Sheffield has now become a judge and is very successful. And I remember at the time, he was moaning even then legally because that’s the very sort of things and there the problems have only got worse in many ways to criminal barristers. And he was effectively trying to put me off and say, “You know, there are better things to do.” But I ignored that advice and what I would say is that if you have a passion to do something then go ahead and do it. And even though I have now taken a different path there is no regret, there is no sense that I have in any way wasted you know a career. I feel like I have had a great innings at the bar that actually for me it was a different time and different passions and different things were coming up to me that made me want to move on.

[0:08:53.5] Rob Hanna: Yeah, and life just moves on and you evolve and you inherit new passions and that was another question I to ask you because I think you are quoted to say this sort of career crossroads. And you know what really inspired you to branch out, to become an author and many other things that you do today but particularly be an author?

[0:09:09.6] Nikki Alderson: Well, I think the career crossroads moment came firstly when I returned back from Jamaica because that was then the ‘Am I going to carry on with this for the rest of my life?’ And actually, because I had coaching then, it really got me back on track with the career and I did it very successfully for another 10 years at least, but the power of coaching never left me. So, when over those 10 years I had my doubts about whether or not this is what I wanted to do forever.

I always thought back to coaching and thought there maybe something in that. And so, it was that I continued with my job full time at the bar but I also did a quite intensive coaching qualification which went on for two years. I had to have guinea pig clients, I had to prove a certain number of coaching hours, I did a thesis, various other things and I always had a potential plan B. But as I was just finishing that course, I met my husband and so we went on to have a family and it wasn’t really the right time. But by baby three it was kind of a now or never moment and I didn’t want to let go of the passion that I had for coaching and thought ‘You know what, I’m going to give this a go.’ It’s not worked out too badly,

[0:10:23.0] Rob Hanna: Not at all, not at all of course we have to tell and as I said at the top of the podcast you know you are the author of the Amazon best-selling book, ‘Raising the Bar’. So, come one tell us more about that.

[0:10:33.6] Nikki Alderson: Well, what was interesting about this is that as a coach, I was becoming a specialist in certain subjects and then I quite enjoyed writing about it. And thinking about it now, maybe it was to do with that passion years ago that I had to be a journalist, but I have written so many blogs and directed my clients to so many of those blogs that I just had a feeling that there was more in me to give.

And then I was recommending certain other coaches’ books to clients and I thought ‘This is ridiculous, I have got my own material here I can do it myself.’ And because I had I think at that time 40 blogs and I had also been involved in a collaborative book where I had already written one chapter for somebody else. I thought, ‘You know what, I can do this myself.’ I’m a great believer as a coach in having a goal and setting up plans to get there and I’m thinking 2018 I had written on my 2019 goal board that I was going to write a book. But what happened was, I think in August, I reviewed my goal board and I thought, ‘Oh, where am I with that whole idea about writing a book?’ And I was not very far forward so I had a word with myself and I thought, ‘Right, okay better get this book written.’ So, I decided on the 14th of August, I was going to write a book. And by the 23rd of October it was an Amazon number one bestselling book.

[0:12:02.6] Rob Hanna: So, how does it feel to be an Amazon bestselling author? It sounds pretty cool, right?

[0:12:06.3] Nikki Alderson: Well, yeah, I mean I’m pleased and that’s another thing about you know the stuff that I do now. The things I used to moan about when I was in chambers about you know the clerks having to manage a diary and certain issues between us. That used to drive me mad but now because I have to do everything myself in terms of diary management, marketing and all of that sort of stuff.

It was so important I think as well to raise my profile, to raise my credibility especially now as well that I’m going on to doing a lot more and speaking at events and so on in terms of my expertise to have a book as well to sort of back that up. I think that is really important. And it’s the book frankly that I wish I’d had myself because it’s all those stuffs that I have learned through- I put a little bit about my own experiences at the bar. The challenges that I’ve had but it’s not all about the buzz, if it’s about the solutions. And for me a massive part of that was coaching and so there were coaching, hints, tips, strategies in there as well. So, but its great as well because it’s got generic appeal even though I wrote it for female lawyers, I’m hearing it from other people and other industries that they are finding it equally helpful.

[0:13:16.5] Rob Hanna: Good, good and I guess you know when people hear our Amazon bestselling author you know if people have similar inspirations and that’s what we are trying to get from this podcast is inspires so many others to take their passions. What steps do you actually have to take to get there? How does it work?

[0:13:29.6] Nikki Alderson: Well, yeah, I mean firstly, you have got to write something you know. It seems obvious and I think that was the hardest part I remember and when I was getting involved in this original collaborative book, that was what took the big chunk of time and I had to go into monk mode to really dig deep and think about what the story was and how I could describe experiences in a way that readers would relate or find interesting.

But once you have got into the habit of writing something then it becomes a lot easier to think of themes and to think about as well what your audience would find valuable or useful to read. In fact, mine is a book which was self-published with help. So, I didn’t get in to all the nuts and bolts of formatting and editing and all that sort of stuff. I had somebody else help me with that but yeah, I haven’t gone through a publisher although you know that some other options maybe later down the line or for my second book.

[0:14:30.5] Rob Hanna: And that comes nicely unto what I was going to say. There is such a thirst for continued content these days in which ever shape or form or medium it will be. So, what’s in the pipeline for the future, can you give us any snippets?

[0:14:39.9] Nikki Alderson: Well yeah, I think there is two things I have really clear visions around. Firstly, since we are talking about the book. There was a chapter in this book that I took out at the last minute because it felt a little bit too much about starting your own business and your USP and networking all that sort of stuff. So, I pulled that chapter, so we already have chapter one of whatever book it maybe that I go onto doing in the future.

Especially, given I feel like I’m branching out not just now looking at the legal profession but also similar challenges about the retention of women in financial services, in medicine, in engineering, in tech and so on and so forth. But secondly, I am really wanting this year in particular to develop my speaker business, so looking at ways I can be in front of a stage you know doing keynote speaking and also doing- continuing my workshop work as well.

[0:15:42.8] Rob Hanna: Yeah, and we are sort of touching on it throughout the conversation but through Nikki Alderson coaching you do so much great work, but I guess going back a step you know what about coaching really helped you find your own value? What would you say to others listening in about that?

[0:15:42.8] Nikki Alderson: I had that piece of coaching which kept me in the job, and I will never forget the power of coaching. And so, if I can give women/men whoever a taste of that and the power of how it can be not just in terms of there being a challenge that you need to get over but in terms of going what does it say from good to great.

You know, Andy Murray got a coaching when he was a really great tennis player, but he wanted to become a world champion and get all the grand slam titles and so on. Then shifting his coach, I think from his mom to Ivan Lendl, it was then that he was able to bring all the medals home. And I think that’s really what I want to convey to people that coaching is really a powerful and useful tool for professional and personal development.

[0:16:44.9] Rob Hanna: Yeah, well said, well said and we mentioned it briefly, but you have spoken at a whole host of national conferences, events such as The Women in Law in U.K., Criminal Law Friend Society, conferences, variety of legal organizations, women lawyers and mothers, Midland Circuit Women’s Forum, Leeds Law Society, the list could go on and on and on. But what do you most enjoy about being a motivational speaker? What do you look back on after doing that and get the most pleasure from?

[0:17:13.0] Nikki Alderson: I think it’s knowing that this journey hasn’t in any way gone to waste that there are people that I can reach out to and influence even if it’s one person in that room, to know that you have made a difference to them and maybe their mindset. Yeah, I think to me that’s the importance that you are making – and then I remember seeing a motivation speaker absolutely years ago and it really sat with me. And I think if I could just do that for one person I would yeah, I’d be happy.

[0:17:41.3] Rob Hanna: Yeah, and we talked about some of the topics as well that you sort of span across, but imposter syndrome seems to be a huge topic at the moment especially on LinkedIn. How can coaching sort of help people with that?

[0:17:53.9] Nikki Alderson: It’s interesting that imposter syndrome because I am coming across it more and more. And the first thing I should say about it is what I have come across and I’ve found surprising is that there is some negatives feminists’ commentary about imposter syndrome while some people have criticized the labels as an old concept and actually it can become like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I don’t agree with that approach because for me what I am seeing in clients and also, I have heard two judges at two different events recently talking about their own experiences of upskilling, having just become appointed as a judge that they have had their own challenges around, are they equipped to do their jobs, do they have enough skills you know stepping into that leadership role. And actually, when they have owned this thing, this label, they have been able to deal with it.

And for me, I do a lot of this in my workshops around you know how we reduce the volume of those negative voices and actually increase the volume on our skills and our strengths and how we can move forward confidently. And also, use the network of people around us if we can’t do it for ourselves there are lots of people who can blow you up just for that point when you are stepping into your space.

[0:19:14.2] Rob Hanna: Yeah, and it is well said because you do touch on some really, really important topics as well. Mindset, resilient, confident sort of personal performance wellbeing so people really should you know if these are important to them, they should definitely be thinking about them and get in touch, right?

[0:19:28.7] Nikki Alderson: Yeah, well you know I have a real concern in this area because I think that law is so often around, you know, image is everything in law and therefore there is a big challenge, I think around talking about this sort of stuff especially with wellbeing. You know there was Time to Talk Day the other week an initiative to help talk about mental health and good mental health in the workplace.

I talked to the Yorkshire Post about it and did a workshop for them. You know, I think in law we could all do with having more than these conversations both about personal development and also about mental health and how wellbeing is so integral without feeling like there is some kind of come back or losing face. There was a stat, a really interesting stat, two out of three barristers felt that talking about stress was a sign of weakness and I just think that that is such a pity that we have to deal with that. You know, people ought to be honest about how they are feeling being able to talk openly about it.

[0:20:36.3] Rob Hanna: Absolutely, and talking openly and exposure, success keeps knocking at your door at the moment and you know I’m pretty sure I saw you on the recent TV appearance on Sky News no less. So, tell us all about that what were you discussing and how did that come about?

[0:20:50.3] Nikki Alderson: Well, I was on the school run on a Friday afternoon –

[0:20:54.1] Rob Hanna: As you do.

[0:20:55.1] Nikki Alderson: – And the phone went, an unknown number and I answered it and it was Sky News saying, “Hi, we’d like to come and interview you in respect of the reducing numbers of women in leadership positions in law.” It was a full society report on the gender pay gap and they want my take on it. I mean, I was absolutely taken aback and thrilled at the same time and the next day later the camera crew arrived at my house and the kids all got involved so, that was quite funny.

But yeah, I mean this for me is not only is about the power of the message that hopefully I’m getting out there but also the power of LinkedIn, Twitter, social media to increase your profile, increase your reach in terms of your message as well because as well you know I was a finalist in the International Coach Awards last year. I’m coaching women all around the world, America, Sweden, France, Amsterdam you know that wouldn’t have been possible years ago and I guess that’s why this opportunity with Sky News came about so.

[0:22:01.7] Rob Hanna: And that was a great point because I was going to say how have you found social media to be so helpful for you and you know all of your initiatives because I guess even this conversation today is kind of LinkedIn discussion you and I have been sort of you know chatting away over the various years. But yeah, how have you have it, sort of tell us a bit more because I think that’s really helpful because you were mastering them?

[0:22:21.3] Nikki Alderson: Yeah, but that was a conscious decision and its interesting in business when you start out, you have to try things out and I think one of your LinkedIn post even recently was talking about how you might try things and fail, but actually there is no such thing as failure, it’s just the learning point. On that point, I started out in business and first off for maybe six months I was a generic coach and yeah, that didn’t go so well. So then, it was like “Right, I’m a coach for lawyers.”

That worked much better, then I niched a bit more female lawyers and then having done a lot of face-to-face networking which whilst I was really building my business was really helpful. About two years later was when the penny dropped with me that I need to be absolutely focused and targeted in what I do, the message I deliver and to whom I deliver it and it was then that I realised that the power of social media. I think it was January of last year, I decided I was going to absolutely do a campaign if you like of social media marketing which was blogging, establishing myself as an expert and that was the culminating in the writing of book.

And it couldn’t have gone better in terms of opportunities coming my way helping other people and I mean conversations like these. I cannot say how much I love LinkedIn. It’s just… and what I love about LinkedIn as well as this seems to me professional, positive and really you know people are there not just to take but also to give and people help each other or else for me there is something, I use Twitter. There is something –

[0:24:03.4] Rob Hanna: I’m a massive advocate of LinkedIn. I think I’m a… other social media I touched on but I just think that LinkedIn if you really thinking about it and you want to get on I think just go all in and don’t be shy about it because I think LinkedIn is just going to be somewhere in 10 years’ time that people didn’t think would be possible. That’s generally my view on it and so I’m quite bullish so if you don’t do LinkedIn at the moment, I think you are missing a trick.

[0:24:24.6] Nikki Alderson: I absolutely agree with you.

[0:24:25.9] Rob Hanna: And so, you know let’s talk about law firms then. You know, what do you think they could be doing better to retain female talent? You know, there is still a long way to go, there is some work being done but what are some of the common themes and what do you think can be done or more can be done?

[0:24:39.4] Nikki Alderson: There should be better consideration around flexible working. That can definitely be used more advantageously and I think there are some firms who are just totally resistant to that idea because they are going to lose fantastic talent in career break returns for example, who cannot be necessarily visible in the office at all times so that is one issue. And secondly, I think there should be some kind of move away from the time-based business models and we should be looking more of an output rather than time because you know we are hearing that a lot of women in particular can work from home.

But they are missing out on that visibility within the office or not going to networking events and so on and so forth. Actually, they still have a huge amount to give and if you looked at what they are producing as an outcome, better that than taking off every six minutes unit

[0:25:35.5] Rob Hanna: And that makes more sense to me because there has never been a larger amount of fixed fee work out there at the moment. So, if you are measuring on output, the two connect.

[0:25:42.7] Nikki Alderson: Absolutely.

[0:25:44.5] Rob Hanna: I don’t see as a disconnect but it’s still like you said, I still think that is a very long way to go but that’s a very, very valid points. Tell us more about your mentoring work because the coaching academy, what that involves, just tell us a lot because people are always looking for new mentors. And like you say, you are always for LinkedIn but yeah, tell us more about some of your mentoring work.

[0:26:02.1] Nikki Alderson: Yeah, I think we have to distinguish here between coaching and mentoring because coaching is what I generally do. I have also, I mentored for the coaching academy and also for LinkedIn sorry not Linkedin, Lean In Leeds which is another sort of female empowerment group in Leeds based on Sheryl Sandberg’s book Lean In. Mentoring is more around advising someone and letting them follow a path similar to yours; coaching is less… it isn’t advisory, it’s more of a where do you want to go, where do you see yourself and how are you going to get there.

But yeah, I do both, sometimes now because of my background I’m finding that the coaching I do is generally coaching but then if the women that I’m coaching want more advisory stuff that’s when I say to them right, “If you want more about that I can come out of the coach role and I can go into mentor mode” and that’s kind of what I do.

[0:26:58.6] Rob Hanna: And what are the future ambitions for Nikki Alderson consulting, coaching shall we say, I’m getting my words out. So, you know, you’ve done so much already but do you sort of, you know, you say you’re very goal oriented, you have kind of got your own plan you know what does the future looks like?

[0:27:12.1] Nikki Alderson: Yeah, I think this year as I said there are maybe three things. Firstly, more speaker engagements. Secondly, expanding the business outside of purely law because I do think – I mean, I was asked and I had a discussion this morning just with an insurance company. I think there is a lot of work to be done in financial services as well. So, that’s another thing I’d like to do to branch out from law. And thirdly, not this year but at some point, people are asking me to write a book. I will do I think at some time.

[0:27:44.4] Rob Hanna: I’m asking you to write another book so please do.

[0:27:47.4] Nikki Alderson: I might need to some more material, but yeah. If you got any ideas send them along.

[0:27:51.7] Rob Hanna: Definitely and listen we have talked about so much there that you are doing, and you don’t sit still and I really admire that but you also do allow time for family time. So, what do you do for down time? What are your plans holiday wise this year? Sort of talk us through your down time moments.

[0:28:06.2] Nikki Alderson: Yeah, well, down time moments for me are in the week ordinarily I’m going to circuit classes regularly and that is really, really important to me. And I still fit that in around everything else. Family time is Saturdays usually just the running around facilitating the family and no me or me and my husband time and then some days it might be more of a country work going back to the Leeds’s point earlier and holidays, makes me laugh. This year we are having a week in Wales but that’s it. But you know we got big ambitions for next year so we’ll see what we can do.

[0:28:46.5] Rob Hanna: Oh, exciting times ahead, no doubt and Nikki it’s been an absolute pleasure having you on. For everyone who no doubt has picked up loads of great tit bits, insights or wants to get in touch there, how would you suggest people get in touch with you, what’s the best form of way, do you want to give your sort of LinkedIn a shout out or any of your social media if people want to get in touch?

[0:29:04.5] Nikki Alderson: Yeah, I think that the best way to ensure that I respond would be to write an Email to but also to LinkedIn with me but maybe with the personal message about where you have heard of me or you know why we should connect because I get a lot of requests and I like to keep my network focused. So, yeah that’s mainly the ways you can contact me.

[0:29:31.8] Rob Hanna: Right, well, thanks a million for popping on Nikki. It’s been an absolute pleasure and I’m sure we are going to see you again on the Legally Speaking Podcast at some stage. So, I’m sure all our listeners also found out really truly inspiring and thought provoking. So, safe travel back to north and over and out.

[0:29:50.0] Nikki Alderson: Thank you.

[Audio Ends] [0:29:50.0]

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