Making Your Money Work Smarter: Build, Protect, and Secure a Lasting Legacy – Natalie Goldberg – S7E3

Natalie’s warmth, humour, and deep commitment to her clients shine through. Her message is clear: with the right planning and guidance, anyone can achieve financial security and peace of mind.

This week we’re super excited and had the privilege of interviewing the award-winning attorney, best-selling author, and nationwide speaker, Natalie Goldberg.

Natalie is not only a fearless cheerleader for her client’s success but also a leading advocate for women and money. She founded Goldberg LLP, a law firm that specializes in estate planning for high-net-worth and ultra-high-net-worth families. Natalie’s mission is to empower her clients with the knowledge and tools they need to protect their assets and secure their legacies. And when she’s not busy safeguarding your funds, she frequently appears on major news outlets such as CNN, Fox News, CBS, Good Morning America, CNBC, and BBC, to name a few, discussing the importance of financial protection.

𝐒𝐨, 𝐰𝐡𝐲 𝐬𝐡𝐨𝐮𝐥𝐝 𝐲𝐨𝐮 𝐛𝐞 𝐥𝐢𝐬𝐭𝐞𝐧𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐢𝐧?

You can catch Rob and Natalie Goldberg talking about:

  • The high-level definition between estate planning, wills, trust, asset protection, elder law, and wealth preservation.
  • The importance of seeking out knowledge and wisdom from experts to make better-informed decisions.
  • How caring and having a personal connection with clients as well as the benefits it can bring to a business?
  • The entrepreneurial side of the law.
  • The importance of being honest with yourself and your business.
  • Natalie’s one piece of advice for those who want to transition into wealth.


00:08 Rob Hanna:

Welcome to the Legally Speaking Podcast. You are now listening to Season 7 of the show. I’m your host Rob Hanna. This week I’m delighted to be joined by Natalie Elisha Goldberg. Natalie is the Founder of Goldberg LLP, a firm focusing on asset protection, trusts and estates. Natalie is an award-winning attorney, rising star, Super Lawyer and known ‘money lawyer’. She is a 5-time best-selling author, a TEDx and nationwide speaker, Natalie has been featured on CNBC, Fox News, CBS, HLN, BBC, and Good Morning America, to name a few. Her articles have been published in The New York Post, Star Magazine, Cosmopolitan, and many, many more. Natalie is passionate about educating her audience and clients on families, the transmission of wealth and ‘how to powerfully have the money talk’. So, a very, very warm welcome Natalie.

01:00 Natalie Elisha Goldberg:

Hey Rob, how are you?

01:03 Rob Hanna:

I am super pumped and excited to talk about the dirty topic that we’re going to be talking about today. But before we do that, and all your amazing projects and experiences to date, we do have a customary icebreaker question here, on the Legally Speaking Podcast. So, on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being very real. What would you rate the hit TV series Suits in terms of its reality, on a scale of 1 to 10?

01:27 Natalie Elisha Goldberg:

2 point 78.

01:30 Rob Hanna:

Not like you to be specific with the numbers. And is there any reason why you’re giving it such a defined number?

01:38 Natalie Elisha Goldberg:

Well, no, I guess we’re like in PI season, so I should have gone 317 for today’s St. Patty’s Day. But you know what, Rob, I just, I just don’t see. I mean, it’s a great show. And it makes the practice of law look sexy.

01:53 Rob Hanna:


01:54 Natalie Elisha Goldberg:

But let’s be real. That’s not always the reality.

01:58 Rob Hanna:

There we go. So a justified 2 point 78. And yes, I always have a green background in recognition of Patty’s Day too. But let’s, let’s talk a little bit more about you then Natalie, because would you mind telling our listeners about your background and journey?

02:13 Natalie Elisha Goldberg:

Sure. So my story kind of starts at 15 years old. I’m walking across the street, regular day, beautiful, sunny Friday afternoon. I just got paid, you know, as a 15-year-old, for working in an ice cream shop. And I’m walking home, I don’t make it by the 2 blocks from home right by the park where I’ve gone to, how many times. 2 guys decided it was a great idea to race their cars from light to light. And 1 of them hit me without touching a brake. That’s 60 miles an hour. And I’m here to tell the tale. So that to me was my defining moment of, oh hell no. There was no justice serves here. How could this happen? And how could my immigrant parents who didn’t know, what to do, right and maybe didn’t hire the best counsel, how do we make truly justice, come to people, in a more understandable, bite-sized fashion so that they know what to do, when life happens. And that is kind of what started at all for me. And then Rob, you know, I did college in 2 years, law school in 2 and a half on a full scholarship, which was a huge gift. And, I said, I’m starting my own law firm, and I did at 24 years old in New York City. And now I’m licensed in 5 states all over the country, I, literally am the travelling Jew, we go, you know, where we’re, we’re, many places. And, the fact is, like, we started this conversation even before we were on air talking about, we’re not a tree, move. And I really believe that, like you need to be in a place that uplifts and inspires and encourages your soul to live its full capacity. I think people settle way too often.

04:02 Rob Hanna:

Absolutely true. And I recently watched the Richard Branson documentary and I’m probably going to butcher the quote, but it really landed with me, and he said something along the lines of, the brave may not live forever, but the cautious do not live at all. And I just love that, it just really, really, really hit home with that. And I love your personal story. And, you know, there’s a lot to unpack there, because from the 8th, you know, being the teenager, then sort of, you know, setting up your own firm in your, sort of early 20s. Let’s break that down. You kind of touched on it a little bit. You, you studied philosophy, politics, law at Bingham, Binghamton, I believe, University before studying your JD at St John’s University School of Law. So, you know, you mentioned that sort of personal experience. Was that your sort of main interest in wishing to pursue a career in the law from, from there or were there any other sort of family influences or wider influences in terms of why law for you?

04:50 Natalie Elisha Goldberg:

So my grandfather was either 1 of the 1st or the 1st Georgian Jewish lawyers in Israel. So, I grew up and I wanted to be a teacher. And my parents would say that you would make such a great lawyer. Why? Because I like to read, write and argue. Give me a microphone, right. I mean, that’s like my favourite place on earth to be. So, and I thought that practicing law was going to be more Perry Mason, and less Scrivener’s error, you know. It’s interesting, the reality of what being a lawyer really is, you are hired to take on people’s problems, and solve them. And sometimes the problems they know. And sometimes they don’t, right, like, for example, estate planning, what I do my background and specialty, nobody wants to talk about it. What do you mean, I’m gonna die, I have to plan for my death? So sometimes we don’t even know what will happen if you don’t. So it’s funny, I get to educate, and, and advocate, which is very, very important to me.

06:01 Rob Hanna:

Absolutely. And you do such tremendous work with, with everything you do. And I’ve been following your journey for a, for a long time. And let’s talk about your, your own entrepreneurial journey, because you mentioned you founded you know, Goldberg LLP, you know, what inspired you to start your own firm. Was there any sort of other inspirations or other role models that gave you that inspiration?

06:21 Natalie Elisha Goldberg:

So, it’s really funny. I have friends from what, not even friends like acquaintances that I didn’t know that well, but I would just meet them the 1st time, I was a 1st year law student, I’d be like, oh no, I’m not going to big firm. I’m, I’m starting my own law firm right away. And then they’ll tell me years later like, damn, you actually did it? To me, Rob, yesterday I’m having a conversation with 2 mums. And they are literally saying, exact words. I cannot afford the luxury of working. Can you imagine, that child care and taking care of a family is so much more expensive than what many women bring home from their salary, that they cannot afford to go work. And I just knew Rob that, I’m not going to live by that ridiculous, I mean, no matter how much money you make as a lawyer, what are you giving up? There’s no free lunch, right? So if you’re making big dollars at a big firm, you’re working big hours. So, I was like, no, no, no, I know my life is gonna be at the bar. So I need to be the master of my own destiny. And that to me was not even a question that I was going to be an owner, because then you get to set the rules. And by the way, what you make as an owner, for how much time you work, it’s, it’s, it’s not even a question like anyone who’s listening to this and thinking, should I start by your thing? Yes, you should.

07:45 Rob Hanna:

You’re talking my language. I completely agree. And it’s 1 of my, 1 of my friends who’s a top careers coach over here talks about you know, a lot of people say 1 day. No, it’s day 1, like now, if you’re listening to this now and you’ve got an inkling of inspiration from what Natalie’s been telling you, go and start that business because again, a great quote from 1 of my other mentors if it was meant to be it’s up to me, right? Take self-accountability, go out there, take action, and start. There’s always going to be, oh, this is going to happen, that could happen, this could happen, but you’re never going to know, 1 things for sure it’s going to stay, if nothing changes, nothing changes. So, absolutely love your mindset. Love your mentality. So let’s break down more your, your practice and your firm because you’ve touched on it. You focus on estate planning, wills, trusts, asset protection, elder law, wealth preservation, would you mind just giving us a little bit of high-level sort of definition maybe explaining some of the differences because again, a lot of these things get lumped in together and to people maybe who want to understand more about your practice of law. Just define them a little bit more broadly, briefly, and, and sort of give us a bit of a, some of the key differences between them.

08:45 Natalie Elisha Goldberg:

The look, it’s all part of the same fruit basket. There might be apples, there might be bananas, there might be oranges, but they all make up the fruit salad, okay? Our big thing is, how do we protect and provide for you and for the next generation. And that means we have to lower all other expenses. So what those expenses be? Creditors, somebody trying to come for your money, divorcing spouses, estate taxes, which most people don’t have an issue with in the US, because the threshold for anyone to have an issue is almost, you know, 13 million dollars individually and 26 as a couple. Most people don’t have those issues. But that is set to sunset in 2025. So some may or are on the higher realm. Long term care costs. Lack of insurance. These are all things that eat away at your money. And here’s the thing no one ever told us financial wellness 1-0-1, where was it on any university, doesn’t exist. So, if I can have people take out less limb, have less money to pay out of pocket so that their money can compound, and build on itself, wherever they want to put it in the stock market, in the real estate, doesn’t matter to me. I’m agnostic. I’m not a financial adviser. I’m a block. Make your money work for you and make it protected so that we have a moat around. That’s what we do. Now interestingly Rob, to me, the biggest opportunity right now is the trillions of dollars that are transitioning from the Boomers to the next generation. Even yesterday, I had a conversation with someone and I said, do you understand that you could sell your business into a bigger company though? And it was like a lightbulb moment, right? So, we are so on our treadmills of life like going, going, how do we make our hourly dollar? How do we make our billing requirements? What’s the bigger picture? Like you didn’t work this hard to just work this hard, and then have nothing to show for it. A few 100 grand is not what I’m talking about. What have the tech bros figured out, that we smart lawyers, doctors, et cetera are like, when I’m done practicing, I guess I’ll just go into the sunset. No, we need to have more of that business mind to say, how do I monetise this thing?

11:02 Rob Hanna:

I love that. It’s such great advice and wisdom. And I just encourage people to rewind and just listen to that again because it’s such powerful points that, that Natalie’s made mentioning there. And things again, I’ve been taught along my entrepreneurial journey as well, work hard, but make your money work harder for you. And I think you know other points you mentioned there in terms of, you don’t know what you don’t know. And you have to go out there and speak to great people like yourself and get that wisdom, get that knowledge so you can make better informed decisions. So just absolutely loving the conversation, lots of wisdom being shared here folks, but please go back and rewind that little nugget, because there’s some really good, great bits that Natalie just mentioned. Okay, so you’ve already kind of demonstrated in the, the first few minutes of a recording, like why you’re great, why you’re brilliant. But again, to sort of set it out there, what sets Goldberg LLP, apart from every other estate planning law firm out there?

11:53 Natalie Elisha Goldberg:

So, the only difference really is our care. Because I’ll tell you, every good estate attorney, they’re using 1 of the really great drafting software’s. You’re gonna go to an estate attorney, you’re getting 1 of those 3 trusts. I mean we’re not recreating the will here. What do you get that’s different? You get someone who gives, you know, a rash about you, and, and who’s also thinking outside the box. It’s not just, Rob, tell me about you and your wife? How many kids do you have? Who’s going to be the guardian, if you croak? I mean, how depressing is that? It’s more, Rob, what is your vision for your life? And what is your driving desire that you want to impact your children? And let’s make that work. And also, by the way Rob, tell me about your perfect day, your perfect day? It starts with the day, for you waking up with, what are you looking outside at? Where are you taking your kids to school? What kind of breakfast are you eating? Are you exercising? What are you doing with your 1 day? People never ask themselves this question. And then they’re like, oh you know, I’m 80 years old and I’ve been doing this for 50 years. You don’t have 50 years of experience, you have 1 year of experience that you’ve replayed 49 times. How do we burst you out of that so that you can actually live life instead of being the 99% walking dead?

13:22 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, I love that. And I think again, if you, you’re running a business and listening to this, I’m wondering why, maybe you’re losing out on clients or not winning, caring is the biggest ROI you can have in any business, genuinely showing an invested interest. And I can just tell that you have that human connection that, you know, it’s business but it’s personal. And you really, you know, through that questioning and sort of the way you’re articulating, it’s no surprise, why not only have you won all these amazing accolades and have such an impressive brand, but, but why your business is flourishing, right, because it’s in the DNA, it’s in the fabric of what you do. So there’s a real message here to, to business owners or start-up entrepreneurs or. Don’t worry about just sort of trying to be everywhere and anywhere, care about what you’ve already got, and really go deep into those. And I guarantee the quality of referrals, the quality of your business, and everything that will come from that will be super successful. So thank you for sharing that and thank you for just doing such great work in the space that you do. And again it’s a success story. You have offices in New York, New Jersey, Colorado, California. Was that always the vision? And do you have plans to expand even further, dare I say to my side of the pond?

14:31 Natalie Elisha Goldberg:

You know what, Rob, I think the biggest financial play we can do in our life today, is, as a result of who we are, where our business is everywhere. I mean, do I have physical offices in these places? No. I have licenses. And, the brain trust is with me all the time. Excuse the pun. And, how many, people who don’t, who are retiring and want to work so little bit, but don’t want to work full time. Mums who can’t work full time at a big law firm and those kinds of hours. These are the people I tap into. And you know all over the country and I do have global plans. Because here’s the thing, really believe what they say diversify. You know, that’s the 1st rule of financial wellness, diversify. We’re only thinking so small, oh, real estate here, gold here, cash here, stocks here. I want people to start thinking businesses in 3 different countries, real estate in different places. Cash or cash alternate, right? Cash is not just the US dollar. It’s the pound, it’s the, you know. So where are we actually physically holding our money. And this matters because, this week, there were 3 banks in the US that failed. And if the US is dealing with these kinds of things, the rest of the world is not far behind.

16:00 Rob Hanna:

Absolutely, I think this is was eye opening stuff, you know, and someone I’m, I’m, I’m quite bullish on, you know, it’s not the conversation for today, but sort of, you know, blockchain and where these, these things can go, you know, at some really interesting marches forward with that. And you’re kind of touching on where I’m wanting to ask my next question actually with what you just said, because, you know, what is your approach to helping clients protect their, as I think you quote, “hard-earned life saving, property and future”? Anything you would expand on from what you’ve already just said, so I think it’s, it’s, it’s all great.

16:31 Natalie Elisha Goldberg:

So Rob, the, the next iteration of my business is very different than a typical labrum model, which I’ve been doing for 10 years. I started this, when I was, 24 years old, my own firm, I’m now going to be 34 in a month, April 16th. It’s not big enough anymore for what I want to do, because if I want to make global impact, I can’t be 1 on 1, and I just can’t anymore. And now what I’m working on doing a DIY, trust system, living trust, which is going to be priced at less than 1,000 dollars, which is well below, the going rate of 1 to 1, and have just as great form just as great information, because it’s gonna be video. And realistically Rob, let’s be real. When someone comes to me, Rob is getting pretty similar advice to Larry, because it’s not that different. Maybe there’s nuance, the names are different, because it’s your family and you. But really the other planning maybe goes to 5 different buckets. And we automate that. And with automating that, we now can go global in our, in our helping of people, because, let’s be real, most Americans don’t have 400 dollars in savings to their name, and with inflation today that number is getting lower and lower. So how do I, I really want to make an impact in the world, expect a person who’s going pay check to pay check to pay me multiple 1000s of dollars to protect their, you know, it’s just not going to happen. But if you can make it affordable for people so that, I think you end up really winning, even though they need a living, they just need a beneficiary designation on their account. Simple thing they need to audit, what the heck is coming in every month and what’s going out? Most people have no idea.

18:18 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, this is, and again, something, you know, people, it, business is not complicated, it’s the people that make it complicated. It’s the way I look at life. And it’s so true, like what you’re saying, you know, it just resonates so clearly with me. And I love that you’re, you know, creating this perhaps 1 to many model, I love how you’re sort of meeting clients where they’re at, like you say, you care, you know, it’s very easy to keep the high price point stuff up here. And, you know, just say, that’s me, but no, I care. I want to give people this solution that’s affordable, where I can meet people where they’re at. And I just, you know, it’s a testament to what you’re doing. And you know, again, the values and what you, what you stand for. And, I want to move on, because I want to talk about, a legacy of love. So at Goldberg, I believe you believe in emphasising a legacy of love, which I love by the way. What is the meaning behind this?

19:07 Natalie Elisha Goldberg:

What do you love? And how do you love that? I mean, really, it’s what it’s all about. Otherwise, if you don’t care about anyone but yourself, you get to that 1st million dollars, invested properly, and you live like a king like you don’t need to worry, God bless, spend it all. If you love somebody else, this stuff matters. And it’s not just, money you’re passing down, it’s values. So for those you love, if you love your children, if you love your nieces and nephews, if you love your siblings, if you love anybody, if you love a charitable organisation, you need to understand how your work today can impact for all the tempos. And I really believe Rob for people who are very self-centred just like about them, those are not my people. It’s people who are, concerned about life beyond themselves, and they want to make it better and we cannot do that without love. And we cannot do that without the conversation, which is what I spoke about on my TED Talk, how to have the money talk to increase your bliss. Bliss is what we’re all after, it’s not really money. We believe money will give us more bliss, happiness, et cetera. But it’s about having the conversations of what is actually our bliss. And what actually do we care about? And how does that money become stewarded to the next generation so that those values can be appropriately perpetuated in the world? That’s what it’s about. So we all get our vision clear and just understand that we’re just bull. Like, it’s just now, tactical, how do we get there? And that’s kind of the easy part.

20:45 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, and again, I love that, that whole mindset and an approach, because I always say, it’s not what we do people, it’s how you make them feel. You can pass someone down a 1,000,000 quid. But if they feel very, you know, uneasy about that, or the way you’ve treated them along the way, you know, the values like you’re saying, it doesn’t matter. Like you might feel like you’re doing a great thing. I’ve, I’ve made my children millionaires, but the way you’ve acted, in that way, that’s actually the legacy that you’re perhaps leaving more so than just the money part. So I love that you’re stressing that it’s, it’s more than money, the values, it’s how that’s earnt, and that’s certainly something that I’ve learned through my grandfather, who was the 1st in his, his family to start his own law firm and come from a very working class family, and, you know, it’s very, you know, instilled in us values and, you know, they, they have absolutely trickled down and what I want to put in to my children, because, yeah, it’s, it’s very easy to be successful, it’s far harder to stay successful. And I think if you can surround yourself with people like yourself and get the right advice, you can be truly, truly successful and instil those values. So again, thank you so much for, for stressing that. Okay, we’re going to talk about your talks. So in your TEDx Talk, ‘How to Have the Money Talk to Increase Your BLISS’, which you touched on before, you outline bliss means business, legal investments and insurance, strategy, succession, and stewardship. So what is the significance of bliss to you, Natalie? Go deeper. Time for a short break from the show. Are you still relying on spreadsheets to manage your legal matters, there’s a better way to work. Our sponsor Clio is the cloud-based legal software that will transform the way your law firm operates. They offer legal practice management and client on-boarding software that doesn’t cost the earth. In fact, from as little as £49 per month you can cut out all of those tedious admin tasks that you dread doing, each week, each month. Automate the boring stuff, free up more time for the important stuff, that’s what you get with Clio. Your clients will thank you for it, your bank account will thank you for it, your colleagues will thank you for it, and you can even thank me later for telling you all about it. So head to Clio dot com forward slash Legally Speaking to see how Clio can help you. That’s C L I O dot com forward slash Legally Speaking. Now back to the show.

23:53 Natalie Elisha Goldberg:

Bliss is that day, that perfect day, that perfectly and it changes, you know, and Rob while we can’t make ourselves out of a, out of a paper bag, truly, I mean, you could think you understand what it means to be a parent, but you don’t know shit until you’re a parent, about what it means to be a parent and excuse the, the French. Here’s the deal, we get so stuck. Here’s how the system works. 17 years old, you’re going to prescribe yourself to a life with student debt. At least in these days. You’re going to go to the best school you can get into, the typical knowledge, take on all the student loans and work till you’re dead basically to pay them. Then you’re gonna start a family, have no idea what that means, truly. How do you have the audacity to tell women especially, you’re empowered, you can do everything and by the way we can, and in fact were higher percentages in law schools, medical schools, dental schools all of it, and why are these people not taking over major law firms et cetera, at the children equation. So my bliss, is very simple. How do I create a life, of awe, amazement and purpose for my children so that I can be a mother to them and a mother to the world? How can I tell those women who I saw yesterday, by the way, it’s okay that you can stay at home and take care of the kids and if you want to make a few 1,000 dollars extra a month, or do I DIY platform is going to be based on affiliates selling into their networks and their book clubs? So now the same women who I care so deeply about, can have their own money without having to ask their husband, hey honey can I have 100 dollars to go get a wax. The whole thing is about breaking apart all these systems. And by the way, we’re going to the Middle East for 3 months, next month, God willing. My kids are going to be in preschool there. They’re going to be learning a 2nd language there. I made it work with the preschool here. Everything is possible, we just think it isn’t. And I want to just dispel all those myths, like, you can do everything, you maybe can’t do it all at once. But you can do it, but it just takes inventive thinking, to figure out how we can balance the family, and the work, and the purpose beyond the family because remember, if all these brilliant people just do work, we don’t have a society. So we need both, I think with smart minds, we can really figure out this equation.

26:44 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, and you know, I, again, I can get the lawyer inside of you, but the entrepreneurial side of me, because it’s very simple for me, it’s solving problems, right? It’s solving solutions. And like, you ultimately just want to move from A to B, a different location with children. And there’s a few things, you know, along the way that you just need to iron out and you just methodically break it down, find the solution, move forwards. And again, I just I love the way of thinking, this is the way the modern lawyer in my opinion, and what I’m trying to really push to people with the show and what I’m saying is, you know, really think differently, the way the law has been practiced for years and years and years and years and years is not fit for purpose in 2023. And you need to get around people like Nat, you need to get around this sort of new way of thinking, this relationship driven way of thinking, it’s not about just farming out documents and just put profit per equity partner and just billable hour, billable hour, it’s so much more than that. So thank you for really showcasing your, your approach to the whole self, you know, when it comes to business and family and making stuff work and carrying those values through.

27:41 Natalie Elisha Goldberg:

By the way, we owe it to ourselves to have an obligation. We have all these great degrees, have always been the top students in the classes. That’s why we are lawyers. And yet, the tech bros are kicking our butts. And they are exiting for how many XROI and we are working our billable hour. Are you kidding me? It’s like wait. And by the way, the ethics rules that disallow for our attorneys to share these with non-attorneys, it’s a, it’s holding back the bar because, LegalZoom doesn’t have these ethical requirements. So why is LegalZoom able to do what we’ve been doing for years and monetise it to an ump degree. And we are all you know, these practitioners in our little offices with a little shingle on the, on the door saying, look at us we’re lawyers, who cares? Where’s the business acumen?

28:40 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And again, it’s just, it’s just great how you approach things and have your fingers on the pulse. I want to talk about balance, because you mentioned it briefly, a moment ago, because also in your TEDx Talk, you state “without the love balancing the money, what is it all for?”. So what do you mean by that?

20:01 Natalie Elisha Goldberg:

Look, it’s empty, it’s empty, it’s, you know, if you just have your eye on the money, make it, literal, and you want to live a great life, all you need to do is make 5 million dollars. If you can live off 5 to 10 per cent of that, and it compounds, you’ll be fine. I mean, really, that, that’s like it, people want to be billionaire, you really just need 5 million bucks to live like, amazing, on 5 to 10% of that interest, a year. That’s it. If though, you care about something beyond yourself, that’s the, it’s, what is my money actually worth? Money is just energy. Where am I putting my energy? Is it in the yachts and the, parties? Or is it in the family and the education, that’s something beyond myself and the charity? Isn’t? Really and it’s okay by the way, either way, like there’s no judgement here. But just be clear with what you want because it’s also not fair, for people to, for example, start relationships with other people. And all of a sudden, one’s been lying about their values. And they say they want to be a family person, but really, they just want to be on the yachts. You have to be honest. And if you’re honest with people, I think you get a very far away because you know what, there’s a lot of value for saying no to you. Like, thank you for saving my time. You know, look, if I’m too expensive for you, thank you for letting me know. If I’m not your cup of tea, thank you winners drink coffee. It’s all about that. So, I think so dishonest with each other. And it’s all like keeping up with the appearances of being nice, screw nice, be real, and go for what you want in life. And, I believe a life worth living is filled with love and giving to others. Because when you give that as the greatest love. And I think if people want to live the fulfilled lives, it’s about the giving.

31:03 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, and I think that’s why everything you saying is resonating with me. And that’s why it’s important for what I try to do with like my mission to build this on a kinder, more collaborative, thriving legal community. It’s so much bigger than me, right? So what I’m doing is, is not about me. I’m trying to leave this legacy that’s so much bigger that holds me accountable, because at the end of the day, it’s, it’s not about me, it’s about actually making something that’s so much bigger, and I love your approach to, to money and business. You know, remember 1 of my mentors said to me, look business is a game and money is how you keep score. And just keep that in line with your mission and vision and how you, you go about it. I love that you’re talking about being honest. Communication, it all starts with a conversation, just having that conversation, you don’t need to, oh my god, I can’t speak about this to, just have a conversation, you’d be amazed how you can actually iron out and find out, you know whether it’s right for, for parties. So again, lots of great wisdom shared there. I want to talk now about another strength that you have a string to your bow, your writing, because you are also a 5-time best-selling author. Your books include, the millen, that’s not how you say it, ‘The Millennial’s Guide To The Universe’ and the ‘Money Momma: The Women’s Wealth Bible For The Digital Age’. So what themes and topics do you explore in your books?

32:18 Natalie Elisha Goldberg:

We’ve been lied to. We’ve been told that you have to pay your dues. We’ve been told that you need to work hard forever to somehow get somewhere, that you have to take on all these student loans, that you have to do all of that. I’ve done none of those things. And I thank God has placed a beautiful path. We need to know is very simple. Surround yourself with good people, make business work for you. In other words, you need to find a way to make money. And you need to know who you are in making that money. I don’t like to take orders from people. I just don’t, I like to be the boss. I know that about myself. So, that’s what I do. If you like to perform and you’d like to show, like your boss, here’s everything and I’m, be an entrepreneur, what Patrick Bet-David talks about a lot. There’s beautiful value in that, but just figure out how to make the money, okay. And then you got to protect it. It’s that moat. It’s that, and it’s very easy for prom, will, power of attorney, health care proxy, living trust. You get a little bit more money, how are we structuring LLC’s brass of protection? You got a little bit more, how are we doing this protection trust? You got a little bit more, let’s do some tax planning. It’s incremental. And let it be. It’s very simple. And, and then have a written vision plan for your life. Adjust accordingly. And be very honest with yourself. Do I want to live my life for me, or do I want to build a family and leave something? Because, Rob, this is the single biggest decision we make in our lives. I mean, you’re a parent, I’m a parent, I had no clue how deeply parenthood would affect me, amidst a global pandemic, I mean, literally. I live in Denver, Colorado now, where my husband’s family is in California. My family’s in New York and the Middle East. You’re on an island, literally in the middle of the country, but you’re, and you have to figure out how to, feed the kids, get them to school, make it work for them put their happiness first, while still trying to live your work purpose. It’s a very difficult balance. However, it’s also the greatest thing I’ve ever done. And I think we just to be real, just need to be real. What do I want? Keep asking yourself it’s like, in the movie, The Notebook, which is my all-time favourite. And Noah goes to Allie, what do you want? Not what your mother wants. What do you want? None of us know. Most of us. Get still. Get silent and ask yourself and keep asking.

35:00 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, it’s, I love this because it’s just hitting so many points that, you know, when I’m speaking to lawyers, you know, when I’m trying to help them with, with career moves and you know, new jobs, and I’m like, why do you work? And they look blank faced and I’m like, why are you a lawyer? Oh, family. That’s not good enough. You know, we’re in 2023. Take a look at yourself, what do you want? Stop comparing. Nobody cares about comparing, just because you think people should think you’re doing that, is not going to make you happy. Live a life like Natalie’s saying, like, what do you want? What genuinely makes you happy? Be real, be true to yourself, and you’ll have a far greater, fulfilled, happier life. So again, I really want to support everything Natalie is saying, it’s so, so important. And at the end of the day, you’re the sum of the people you hang around. So if you hang around very negative people, or you’re hanging around people that have got the same level of thinking day in, day out, that’s not making you grow or pushing or challenging you, you probably want to start thinking about the people, you’re starting to hang around. Really, really important point. Okay, so Natalie, I want to come back because you’re also very passionate about supporting and educating your clients on transition of wealth. So, what would be your 1 piece of advice to have, with the money chats, with their family?

36:13 Natalie Elisha Goldberg:

Okay, number 1, nothing is writ. Write it down. Literally, how do you open the door to the office in the morning? How do you log into the computer? Boring stuff. Write it down. Remember, we don’t have a telepathic connection to the dead should something happen, God forbid. And maybe some of you do. And maybe you should do that for a living. That’s awesome. And yet most people don’t. So, if we can’t figure out passwords, and especially in our blockchain era, where you might have a private wallet with a lot of wealth, needs to be writ, needs to be spoken about. It’s actually the last wrap of the conversation. And, there’s this innate desire for most of us to be fair. We don’t always understand though that equal may not be equitable. If your daughter is running your business, and your son has kind of, hasn’t ever really gotten it together, or vice versa, it’s not fair to leave them each 50 per cent of the business. And by the way, 50/50 on a business is the worst possible thing you could do because there’s no decision maker and breaker of a tie. The biggest litigation cases happening today or estate litigation. Why can you imagine this is your sibling, this is your parent, and you are literally, after a death happens, it’s, there’s no grief, there’s just fighting. It’s disgusting. And we’re going to have it stop. And the way we have it stopped is by getting a little bit uncomfortably comfortable. It’s uncomfortable to have a talk about when I’m no longer here. But the comfort you get, in knowing, everyone knows. And by the way, video that conversation. So then no one could say, today is not, the 16th century where we had to do 2 witnesses to a will, although that’s what we still do today, with you know, poor grandma who, who has dementia and is signing wherever you put it. I mean, it’s, it’s disgusting, what people will do and what I have seen. Why can’t you just video it on Zoom, and keep it, and forward it to everybody and say these are the rules. And by the way, if you have an issue let’s talk about it now, while grandma’s still alive.

38:21 Rob Hanna:

I, I love it. Because it’s the recurring theme here of, of communication. A lot of things fall down in life and business and deals because of a lack of communication and clarity. I think if you’re prepared to have the conversation, have those communications, it becomes so much easier and record, like you rightly say. And again, it’s a little bit cliche, but it’s so true. You know, you don’t get what you deserve in life, you get what you negotiate. And I think you know, in reality, is in business, not necessarily connected to everything, and we won’t discuss today, but if you’re in a scenario where you’re feeling life’s unfair, you’ve got to get out of that poor on me mindset. It might be tough love, but it’s the reality of life. It’s the reality of the world we’re living in. You don’t get what you deserve in life, you get what you negotiate. Okay, Natalie, I want to come on to your speaking now because you’re a nationwide speaker. You’ve been featured, I mentioned in the intro and so many things, you’ve been on the likes of Fox News, CBS, CNBC, Good Morning America, the list goes on. What impact do you hope to make as a speaker when you attend all these panels, shows, events?

39:20 Natalie Elisha Goldberg:

It’s really the 1 to many, right? It’s how does my voice reach those who may need it most? And sometimes Rob, I’ll get, from LinkedIn posts, people will DM me and say, you know, that really touched me. That’s what I needed today so much. And, and to me, I may not know who that end person will be. But the fact is, I’ve gone to colleges and I’ve spoken and kids have come up to me after and said in my 4 years of college, this talk I came to was the most valuable thing I learned because now I know what I want to do with my life. I’ve had people coming, ex-boyfriends who I don’t even remember ever having a conversation with, being like look, you’re on the wrong path. This was mostly when I was younger and you know. And I’d be like, here’s what you need to do to get to this success. And years later, I bump into them randomly, they’d say, that conversation with you set everything up for me. So, you know, when we give without expectation, we just give them a place of sharing our gifts. My gift is I can see the potential in people. And, I’m a great confidence cheerleader to let them know that they can do it. And I believe that confidence is the biggest missing factor in our society. As a parent, I think it is my biggest obligation to instil competence in my children. And as a human being helps others plan for their life and legacy. The lack of confidence in ourselves is, so big. And it’s holding everybody back. I mean, just know something, a spiritual law of life. If you want something, you, it is meant for you. And all you have to do with that desire is work on it, and it will come. We’re so afraid to take that 1st step. And I want to tell the listeners today, we’re all going to die so what are you waiting?

41:16 Rob Hanna:

It’s again, I, I absolutely plus 1 to everything you’ve said, because I’ve said for many years, if I could find the secret ingredients to bottle up confidence and sell it, I’d be a billionaire 10 times over. But it’s so important. You’re right. Because fear does kill more dreams than failure ever will, and I think people have this intrinsic, particularly in the legal world as well there’s risk aversion, I can’t do that. And maybe I shouldn’t do that. Or I can’t do this, or I’d be judged about that. But, be confident, you know, embrace it. And maybe you’re a shy person, look at it from this perspective. And again, it’s something I picked up a, the recent Branson documentary where his, his mother taught him he was intrinsically shy, and said, you’re being selfish. You’re being selfish, being shy, you’re not thinking of others, how you’re making them feel uncomfortable, you’re not sharing your opinion, you’re not communicating. So maybe you’re an introvert, maybe you’re a very shy person, maybe look at that perspective, and think maybe, you know, I need to be more confident because I can be more helpful to people, I can educate people, I can be a value, service and not selfish. And again, it just really mirrors to everything you’ve been saying Natalie. You talked about LinkedIn. I’m big fan of the platform. I love the platform. I think it’s a wonderful platform. You’re huge on social media, you know, LinkedIn, TikTok, et cetera, et cetera. 10s and 10s of 1000s of followers, how do you utilise social platforms to build your personal brand, alongside educating and informing your, your community and followers?

42:39 Natalie Elisha Goldberg:

You make boring things not so boring, by good copywriting. You include a great image. And you get a base of followers who you’ve given to through comments, through shares, et cetera, that wants to support you. You do it every day, for maybe 3 years. And then let’s talk, your life will be different.

42:58 Rob Hanna:

The message there is be consistent. There’s no overnight success in anything. And you know, it’s a non-negotiable for me, posting every day and showing up for my community. It’s a non-negotiable for Natalie. And there’s no surprise that there’s proof in the pudding. So it’s really good advice there. So before we finish up on this fascinating discussion, thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed it, lots of wisdom been shared today, what would be your advice to law students, or those looking to start their legal journey, who may wish to pursue a career in asset protection, trust and estates, basing it on the fact that we’re in 2023, and looking at the future ahead?

43:35 Natalie Elisha Goldberg:

Where legal technology is today, most estate planning attorneys were basic, will not have a job in a few years. What you need to do, we don’t need another law firm in this world. We do need succession lawyers. We do need competent and young attorneys to know that they can do it. So the way I would propose that those people do it, come up with someone who is looking for an exit plan, doesn’t know what to do, which by the way is almost every attorney who’s solo or small, be that succession plan. In the 2 or 3 years, of sweat equity you put in there, I promise you, you’re gonna have a more fulfilling career than almost any other path to take being a lawyer. And learn from the experience. The documents are not special. They’re crafted by geniuses in this area, and by the way and you. And really want to be successful, here’s your secret nugget. Get a paralegal doing it every year. Your paralegals or legal assistants, they are your superpowers. They are. So, you get into a firm, you build the equity for a few years, you learn everything you can, from the matriarch patriarch at the firm, you team up with a fabulous paralegal, who you are devoted to and loyal to. Your life will never be the same.

44:54 Rob Hanna:

I love that. Such great advice and the word I probably deep from that is collaboration. You know, you collaborate with people, you’re bringing people together, you’re learning and I always say collaboration is domination. I love that you said, you know, learn from the experience and folks, you drop the L from learn, it spells earn, it’s pretty simple. You got to learn before you can actually go on and be successful. So, this has been amazing Natalie, and I’m sure, and our listeners, no doubt are going to want to continue following your journey and learning more. So what’s the best way for them, to contact you? Feel free to shout out your social media handles, your website links, we’ll also share them in this particular special episode for you too.

45:32 Natalie Elisha Goldberg:

Get on. Get at me on LinkedIn at Natalie Elisha Goldberg. I’m on TikTok Lawyer Natalie and, really just do a Google search on me. I’m easy to get in contact with and I welcome the opportunity to give you a little confidence folks, so don’t be shy.

45:48 Rob Hanna:

Don’t be shy. Absolutely. Thank you so, so much, Natalie, it’s been an absolute pleasure having you on the show. So from all of us on the Legally Speaking Podcast, wishing you lots of continued success with your pursuits in your career, but for now, over and out. Thank you for listening to this week’s episode. If you liked the content here, why not check out our world leading content and collaboration hub the Legally Speaking Club over on Discord. Go to our website www dot Legally Speaking Podcast dot com for the link to join our community there. Over and out.

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