Lawyer & Prolific Thought Leader – Frank Ramos – S2E15

This week on the Legally Speaking Podcast, our host, Rob Hanna was joined by the amazing Frank Ramos! Frank is an Attorney, currently the Managing Partner of Clarke Silverglate law firm, which is based in Miami. He is a certified mediator and practices in the areas of commercial litigation, class action, employment, products liability and catastrophic personal injury. He has authored more than 10 books, 400 thought-leadership articles, Hosts theA Conversation Withpodcast, and posts original insights on LinkedIn every day— all of this whilst running a busy law firm! 


Rob Hanna: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Legally Speaking powered by Kissoon Carr. I’m your host, Rob Hanna. This week, I’m honored to be joined by the amazing Frank Ramos. Frank is an attorney, currently the managing partner of Clark Silverglate law firm based in Miami is a certified mediator and practices in the areas of commercial litigation, class action, employment, product liability, and catastrophic personal injury. He’s authored more than 10 books, 400 thought leadership articles and hosts “A Conversation With…” Podcast. And if that’s not enough, he also posts original insights on LinkedIn every day, all whilst running a busy law firm. So, a very big welcome Frank and nice to meet you. 

Frank Ramos: [00:00:43] Nice meeting you. Thanks so much for having me. 

Rob Hanna: [00:00:45] No, it’s really, really am very honored to have you on the show. Um, we do have an icebreaker question that we ask all of our guests before we get into it, which you may or may not know which is around Suits.

So, on the scale of 1 to 10, 10 being very real. How real would you rate the reality hit TV series, Suits?

Frank Ramos: [00:01:06] Hahah I’d probably put it around a four. I think it has a lot of drama and suspense, and it actually does teach some fine points about communication and interpersonal relationships. But in terms of just the actual practice, I think it leaves something to be desired. 

Rob Hanna: [00:01:23] Yeah. And I think that’s a common theme, four out of 10, the last few guests have sort of given it a four, I think that’s yeah, there used to be in the first couple of seasons, a little bit more kind of closeness to the reality, but in the last few seasons, I think it’s just gone very Hollywood, but, um, listen, Frank, there’s so many things we need to get through today because you do so much for the, for the legal sector. So, um, but I want to sort of start at the beginning. If I may tell us a bit more about sort of your background, where were you born and raised? 

Frank Ramos: [00:01:51] Sure. I was born in Chicago and moved down to Miami where I live currently in the mid-eighties. And I’ve been here ever since I’m now 48, I think, and married, married about 26 years.

We have two boys, 21 and 19. And, uh, as we all are, we’re dealing with the COVID-19 issues. So, I’ve been working from home for a few weeks and maybe working from home a few more. And as you mentioned, I do litigation commercial products and employment. And in my spare time, I love to write, and I love to be on social media and trying to provide some assistance to younger lawyers.

I was one of them a while back and trying and trying to pay it forward and, uh, help them out as much as I can. 

Rob Hanna: [00:02:30] Yeah. We’re definitely going to go into all of that later on, because you do a great deal around that. But in terms of your journey, did you always want to be a lawyer? 

Frank Ramos: [00:02:39] Uh, no, actually I wanted to be a writer and I wanted to get into politics.

Uh, I came up in college, uh, in the early nineties. And a was I believe a junior, when the 92, the presidential election between George Herbert Walker, Bush and Clinton came up on that whole thing. Very fascinating. It was considering getting a degree in political management, which at the time was fairly novel today.

Most colleges have a course or degree in political management, but back then in the early nineties, that was sort of a new vote sort of approach to the schooling and consider that, but then decided to stick with law school and went to, uh, university, in Miami here at Miami and been practicing ever since for practicing, just about 23 years now. 

Rob Hanna: [00:03:27] Yeah. And tell us a bit about, talk us through your journey and experience prior to obviously your, your current firm, at, sort of Clark Silverglate. So, tell us a bit about your experiences before that. 

Frank Ramos: [00:03:36] Uh, sure. Well, I, uh, graduated in 97 and during my second and third year of law school, I clerked at a national civil defense firm called Hinshaw Culbertson its based out of Chicago, and that was part of the draw for me because I was raised in Chicago but I was going and working in Miami and worked there for about a year. Uh, it was a big firm. I don’t think I was really meant to work at a big firm. So, I switched over to Clark Silverglate, which is a boutique litigation firms. There’s, the sizes range between 10 to 15 lawyers over the years. I’ve been there. And found it to be a much better fit for me. And so, I’ve been there ever since. 

Rob Hanna: [00:04:14] And you know, you’ve done so successfully. Well, and you’re, you’re currently the managing partner, um, you know, at the firm. What does that role entail for you?

Frank Ramos: [00:04:22] Ah, well, in addition to working on my own case load, I try to help the firm, however I can, in terms of HR, in terms of leadership, in terms of dealing with a lot of the administrative issues that firms, uh, have to deal with, you know, I think most lawyers aren’t trained on how to run a business. So, I’ve had to learn how to do that as well.

Current position, I think that’s actually as much or more fun than to practice law. Some people don’t enjoy it, but, but I do. And I think it certainly helps you become a more well-rounded person, and I think by learning how to run a business, you’re much better at representing clients who run their own business.

Rob Hanna: [00:04:58] Yeah, no. Well said. And you’re, um, you are AB rated enlisted and the best lawyers in America for defense work and product liability matters. I mean, how do you do it? 

Frank Ramos: [00:05:08] No, it’s just a question of just doing it day after day, month after month and year after year, it’s just, uh, pretty known in the work. Um, I think each of us have the ability and the wherewithal to achieve a certain level of status and reputation and whatever practice area we’re involved in. And it’s just a question of being consistent and being persistent.

Rob Hanna: [00:05:31] Yeah, absolutely. And I love your firm’s mission, which is for your lawyers to be leaders and mentors. And I just really, really loved that. And you, um, I think you’ve been the president and involved in so many associations and societies, too many to list, but tell us about some of them and your involvement.

Frank Ramos: [00:05:48] Sure. Uh, over the years I have been involved in various voluntary bar associations here, both in Miami, Florida, and nationwide, and also have volunteered on various boards for nonprofits. Uh, one of them was Parent To Parent in Miami, which helps parents of special needs children. Uh, I’ve served on the board and continue to serve on the board at my boys’ high school.

Uh, they’ve since graduated, but that’s Florida Christian and served on the board of various alumni associations at both FIU and University of Miami. And I think those opportunities, uh, help us grow as lawyers does, not only do we, uh, develop relationships that may lead to business referrals, but it also in the sense that you develop certain communication, leadership and management skills that bode well in terms of handling your own case load and leading the law firms.

So. Uh, I’ve been blessed in the sense that I’ve been able to deal with some great people at some great issues, but I’ve also learned a lot from them along the way. 

Rob Hanna: [00:06:45] Yeah, no, absolutely. And we touched on it earlier, but you, you serve as a mentor to countless young lawyers, law students through your publications, social media posts, presentations, webinars, coffee chats.

I want us to go back a step first. What inspired you so much to want to give back? Tell us more about that. 

Frank Ramos: [00:07:05] You know, back, I want to say around 2001, I had been practicing, I guess, about four years then. And I was going through a period where I was kind of questioning my own skillset. I was going through my own period of imposter syndrome, which is pretty common, among young lawyers irrespective of their practice or background. And so, I started sitting down and just writing what I knew about the practice, what I had learned, and basically started writing a series of how to articles on how to argue motions, how to draft motions, on writing, you name it. And it was really more for me than anybody else, but I started getting those articles, published in various legal publications, and periodicals, and never really looked back. Since 2001 there have been periods of high productivity, low productivity in terms of my writing, but I’ve always returned there. And even though it’s meant to help others, it’s primarily done for very selfish reasons. I kind of sit down and I think through, uh, my own processes, I believe that everything we do as lawyers to some degree can be reduced to a process or set of steps or checklists. And I try to take whatever skill set or opportunity or action, I have to take and figure out how do I get from here to there? What are the steps or the checklist I need to follow to ensure, that I’m doing that task as well as I can do it. And that process has served me well through my career. And each time I do that, I try to share it with others.

Now I’m not, that’s a perfect, uh, you know, my process is my own. Uh, and others may disagree with some of the steps I recommend or may want to augment or reduce some of them. But I think it’s a great process for each of us to participate in no matter where we are in our careers to sort of sit down and evaluate for ourselves where we’ve come and where we’re going and figure out for ourselves, you know, what are the, the steps we need to take to, you know, take a better deposition or to try a case, or do cross examination, to develop relationships, to lead the business, everything we do in our careers, whether it’s law or anything else. Um, there’s a process orient. I think when I was traveling out back in the early two thousands and late 1990s, there wasn’t much there. Uh, you know, the internet was still sort of in its infancy. Uh, publications were so mostly, uh, dealing with case summaries and case evaluations. There wasn’t much how to stuff out there and that’s changed a lot in the last 20 some years.

Uh, and so I thought that there was a need, I, I still think that there is in terms of just learning the practice. So many of us need mentors, but we don’t have them readily available and therefore writing allows us to provide those opportunities and provide that information to people who need it. 

Rob Hanna: [00:09:48] Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah. Just sort of breaking a few things down, then. Tell us more about the, your development of the deposition bootcamp and the art of marketing program for young lawyers. 

Frank Ramos: [00:10:00] Sure. Like everything I do with regards to deposition boot camp, which I had a lot of help with and work together closely with other members, other Federation defense and corporate counsel, which is sort of a national organization of civil defense lawyers.

I was at a point in my career and this was back in 2012 and 13. Where I’ve been practicing awhile and thought that I was pretty effective at that position, but I really wanted to take that next level. So very selfishly I wanted to put together program of all our members, who I consider it to be by reputation that proceeded them, that were very effective at taking depositions.

And so, we put together a program and a book, a deposition manual, which is published by the FTCC, where we, uh, created a, how to, the soup to nuts, ABCs taking depositions and defending their positions. And I was very fortunate and blessed to be able to travel around the country. And I think we headed up five or six of these programs where we had about a half dozen or more faculty in each of these programs.

And we had gotten lawyers from around the country, participate and dry runs and actual, uh, sitting down in a room and speaking with actual witnesses. And we had Actual reporters and videographers, and the whole experience was a lot of fun. I learned a lot, you know, learn as much or more than any of the participants.

And again, with everything I do, I do it in very, I hate to say it, but very selfishly I wanted to become the best deposition taker. So, I get all the best books I know to basically teach me as I’m teaching others about depositions.

 Our marketing was very similar. That was the brainchild of the past president of the FPCC miles Galvin.

And his idea was that marketing can be taught in terms of business development can be taught building relationships that lead to business referrals can be taught. And so, he asked me and some other members to put together a program and under his diligent supervision and we put together a program and we also wrote a book called attorney marketing one-on-one, which is free to digress.

At the moment, if people want to access my books most of them are free. They’re basically PDFs. If you visit my profile on LinkedIn, under Frank Ramos and scroll down under my profile to this point of publications you’ll find that there’s probably a dozen or so of them that are free. One of which is attorney marketing one to one, which is sort of everything, uh, that one can think of in terms of how a lawyer at a law firm can market their practice.

So, our marketing was an opportunity to teach. Uh, young-ish lawyers, uh, lawyers have been out, you know, between six and 10 years, how to develop a Booker business. And that was sort of the guide. And again, purely selfish. I want to learn from the best I wanted to learn from all the rain makers, the organization.

And so, I got to hand pick with the other members of the committee, the members who knew how to develop business and learn from them directly. We put on a couple of those seminars who were putting out some more. Uh, as you can appreciate right now, things are kind of at a standstill, uh, conference wise because of COVID-19. Well, we hope that once things return to the new normal, we’ll be able to put on some more of those seminars as well.

Rob Hanna: [00:13:06] Yeah, definitely. I definitely agree. Like some of the, some of the books, I mean, we can’t mention them all, but there’s some really good content in there. You know, be your own life coach go motivate yourself.

I think a lot of those are very hard hitting now as well, particularly at times like this so I would encourage people to you to check them out and obviously visit your, your LinkedIn page as well. And you touched on COVID-19 and that kind of lends itself nicely to my next question. And I know you don’t have the magic ball, but you know, what tips would you give to young and indeed sort of, of all lawyers, um, you know, pre COVID-19, during COVID-19, and fingers crossed when all said and done post COVID-19, you know, what, what  can we learn from all of this? 

Frank Ramos: [00:13:45] No, I think now this is a sort of new reality for many of us here in Miami. Uh, we are now taking depositions remotely. Via Zoom, just like the platform we’re using now. I have attended two mediations the last week. One of which settled, uh, did not put this closest settling reply settled by end of the week. Hearings are being conducted via Zoom, and this is just sort of a new world, a new reality, how much longer we’ll be in sort of this lockdown mode, I’m not sure, but what happens with anything is that once you get accustomed to doing something, it’s hard to go back. You know, just a few weeks ago. All of this was very foreign to us. Zoom was a very foreign platform to most of us, uh, attending deviation, deposition, or hearing from your own home, whether it’s in your kitchen, which is where I’m at now, or your living room, your bedroom, that was all very unusual.

Uh, more and more it’s becoming pretty commonplace. And I’m wondering at what point does this all become a habit for us where clients, where judges or parties realize maybe it’s better. At least in some circumstances to do things remotely, maybe it’s better to spend some time at home and spend less time traveling, uh, from your car or from your train or, or subway into work and back. Maybe it’s better to spend more time at home with one’s family and have a schedule where you have more control over it. And simply going into the office and spending 10, 12, 14 hours there for whatever reason. So, I suspect what’s going to happen, uh, socially is that we’re going to get accustomed new practices. And as we’re all home now we’re spending more time remotely working on whatever we’re working on it, I think this is a good time to learn how to develop social networking skills and opportunities to meet and greet and develop relationships online. We’re not going to be going, we’re not going to be traveling. And so, if we didn’t learn to do that, uh, once things returned relatively to normal Mmm. That we’ll have a certain new skillset that we’ll be able to implement in our practices.

Rob Hanna: [00:15:45] And that’s something I’m seeing sort of sector-wide really, and trying to see people, um, bring out is, you know, there’s a big thing now, obviously, and everyone having personal branding. And then also as an extension of that reputation, which, you know, personal brand is great, but there’s also the reputation piece of sort of, you know, that’s who knows you and rates you.

And that was going to be my next question. You know, we’re very much in a content fueled society nowadays, you know, talk us through your process of generating and capturing great ideas for your content.

Frank Ramos: [00:16:13] Yeah, my, my content to my, I guess, brand, if you want to, it’s defined me with a brand is I try to provide guidance and assistance to young lawyers.

A lot of the advice I give probably applies to the more experienced lawyers just as myself, but my focus is on young lawyers. And I write on the practice, pre-litigation and trial skills, business development, leadership management, and a lot of motivational and inspirational topics. And my net is cast so broad that I’m able to come up with a lot of things to talk about and write about.

And for those who are interested in pursuing sort of a life online and having a brand online, developing a following or platform online. You kind of have to start with what you want to write about what you want to talk about. You got to come up with our broad topic that’s going to generate and create and foster ideas for the weeks, months, and years ahead.

Uh, one area obviously would be focused on whatever practice area you do. Uh, if you do cybersecurity you could probably write on cyber security law, it’s quite a large topic. If you do products liability could certainly do that. I can do family law. You know, that certainly lends itself to lots of topics and writings.

And, you know, just as I write, I follow a lot of people on LinkedIn. I find that what folks do who write and post regularly is that they do find either a topic or practice area, and then post on it regularly and become, uh, and create a following among others, where others see them as an expert in that field.

And it becomes sort of a self-perpetuating, uh, prophecy where people just see yourself as somebody who is an expert and family law or trust and estates, or whatever area may be, international arbitration. And when they have a question on that topic, when they have a case in that area, you get a call or an email or a message from them.

So, it’s a long-term investment, that takes weeks, months, years to develop that online presence. Uh, but it isn’t as much work as it is just having, uh, the focus and the continuity doing it, on a day to day basis. It didn’t take much time. It’s just being committed to doing it over a long period of time. 

Rob Hanna: [00:18:25] And that’s the key point and you know, what.

You know, as we moved through business, it’s, it’s, it’s not going to be a nice to have, it’s going to be an essential, I think you need to have, um, you know, be getting producing content, adding value to, like you say, your social networks now, because of this becomes a new normal you can’t afford to just not be present as long as you’re putting in and find a niche.

And the other thing is. You’ve just got to start, right. You start and you can learn and you can kind of try and improve step by step because some people may not have the initial confidence, but I think if you just made that leap, then you know, it’s a, it’s a step forward and you touched on it there around, um, fixing content into, um, your schedule.

But you know, you are a managing partner, you are busy, busy guy, you know, how, how do you fit in? Do you sort of draft in the mornings or do you sort of have, uh, do you make side notes and then sort of have a selection? How do you, how do you fit it into your schedule? 

Frank Ramos: [00:19:14] You know, it’s, it’s, it’s based on where I was in the journey of social media. At the beginning, I was much more conscious of when to do it and how to do it. And at some point, it becomes very second nature and ideas just sort of come to you. And now it’s just, whenever a thought comes to mind, I’ll just type it on my phone. I have LinkedIn app on my phone and I generally interact with LinkedIn on my phone as opposed to my desktop or laptop.

But my recommendation is if you’re just starting out to, uh, set aside maybe 10 minutes a day, preferably the same 10 minutes each day. And just kind of thinking about something doesn’t take long. And remember that LinkedIn posts, I think are limited 1300 and 1400 characters. People don’t have much time to read. You’re either maybe sharing an article or a case or regulation you’ve come across, or you’re just sharing the thought you had or whatever practice area, whatever topic you’re focusing on. And on a given day, if you’re practicing that area, you’re probably having lots of random thoughts about it. And you just try to pick out one or two.

You may want to walk around, and I have a little journal on your pocket or your purse, or you may want to use the note application on your phone and jot down the idea. And whenever you have the time, whether you’re standing in line, at a supermarket or waiting for a hearing or deposition again, it’s just a question of getting into the habit of capturing your ideas and your thoughts, putting them down, reducing them to writing, and then sharing them with others. It’s a little unusual at first. It’s not natural at first, but I would say within a few weeks, like anything else, like the habits we are forming now in isolation and in quarantine, uh, it becomes very second nature.

Rob Hanna: [00:20:54] Yeah. And how much do you value the LinkedIn platforms? Everyone’s talking about LinkedIn right now and you know, I’m, I’m a big advocate of it, but how much do you value the LinkedIn platform as a, as a lawyer? I’m just generally as a businessperson?

Frank Ramos: [00:21:08] No, I really enjoy it. I find that I learned a lot from others who post, especially since COVID-19 sort of affected all of us to learn from others in terms of how to respond, to deal with it, working remotely.

Mmm, in the U S there are certain opportunities for small businesses, so there’s lots of opportunities for interaction, and there’s lots of opportunities to speak with individuals and take a lot of those relationships offline through texting or calls or zoom calls or messaging. So, LinkedIn is what you make of it. And the more time you invest in it, the more you didn’t get out of it, just like anything else, whether it’s working out or dieting, being involved with voluntary bar association, you get what you did and you did out of it what you invest into it. My recommendation for anybody just starting on the platform, it’s to really explore it.

Uh, and it’s actually easier to explore on a PC or on a Mac than is on your phone because it’s just, it’s just easier to see. And eventually you kind of switch off and using, using the phone app. I would just suggest you kind of look on everything. Looked at everything, looked at groups, look at, uh, people’s profiles, look at what they’re sharing, looking at the content, uh, you know, spend some time and just explore platforms. There’s a lot that it offers that isn’t obvious at first glimpse. 

Rob Hanna: [00:22:26] Yeah. No, absolutely. And you know, you’ve made it right the way up the food chain in the, in the legal world. What tips would you give to lawyers with aspirations of wanting to make partner and indeed managing partner one day? 

Frank Ramos: [00:22:39] One thing is to try to figure out what areas you really enjoy and what niche you want to develop is eventually we can’t all be generalists. There are some people who do and are generalists, more and more, that’s becoming the exception more and more clients want the best person in a given geographic region or practice area.

So, if you can find what you really enjoy and add sort of a niche for it, again, it could be cybersecurity, trust and estates, it could be international arbitration. If you can find sort of a narrow area, maybe alcoholic beverage licensing, I have a friend who does that, and then learn everything there is in that area.

And obviously the more narrow the niche the easier it is to sort of become an expert at it. So, there’s less to learn. Uh, conversely, it’s a little bit more problematic and a little bit more, a bigger risk because. obviously if you’re only working on that field and it kind of goes sideways that’s a problem.

There are pros and cons to specializing in a niche, but that’s what I recommend, trying to figure out what really speaks to you, what motivates you, what inspires you. Learning everything there is in that area and then pursuing it wholeheartedly and developing a reputation and expertise that others come to see you and associate you with that area in your geographic region.

Rob Hanna: [00:23:53] Yeah. And there’s undoubtedly lots of good lawyers in the world, but in your opinion, what makes a great lawyer? 

Frank Ramos: [00:24:01] I think just curiosity. I think somebody who really likes the area that they’re practicing in and spends a lot of time reading about it and studying it. And it doesn’t have to be limited to just the law.

Now, if you’re working on a type of case, and maybe it has certain media implications or its seen a lot of coverage. Maybe you go out and you read the books, the articles or the blogs. Um, and you go beyond just the direct skillsets that you need for lawyers, we need to be good communicators, good speakers, good writers; and there’s lots of opportunities to develop those skill sets outside of the practice, you know, in terms of speaking, Oh, there’s Toastmasters. There’s improv classes for writing. There’s lots of books. There’s online classes, go back and take the grammar, writing composition class, develop or improve your writing skills.

So, it’s always trying to think outside the box, looking beyond the four corners and figuring out how else still sit here in need to really be most effective in the practice area you’re pursuing. 

Rob Hanna: [00:25:06] Yeah, no, absolutely. 

And culture is a big thing that we talk about in, in, in law firms even more so in the modern day, what do you believe law firms can do to increase their sort of collegiate cultures?

Frank Ramos: [00:25:19] I think developing an effective mentoring program where you’re very conscious of the needs of your younger lawyers and even your staff and your paralegals and assigning mentors and developing mentoring relationships more senior or less senior lawyers. I think that’s very, very important. 

Rob Hanna: [00:25:39] Yeah. And again, you talked a little bit earlier about all of the societies you’ve been involved in and associations, but again, in your opinion, what do you think, because lots of people are maybe looking at trying to stop them or get involved in them. What do you think makes a really good, powerful, and meaningful society? 

Frank Ramos: [00:25:55] You know, it’s just trying to figure out and pursue what’s really… it really has to start with you. You have to figure out what you’re passionate about. What motivates you, what interests you. This is a long path, career, something that will last several decades. And it isn’t one where, you know, it’s not like a professional sports or something else where, you know, do it for a few years and retire. You know, most of us are going to, to become lawyers in our mid to late twenties and not retire until our mid to late sixties.

So that’s a long, long journey. So, you really have to find something that you enjoy in the legal sector, in the legal fields, and then find a firm or a company that’s committed to developing you. And sometimes for some of us, it may take a few firms to find that home that we want to call our forever home.

And for some of us, we’re lucky to find it very early on in our careers. But if you’re one of those struggling and you haven’t found the right place, the right uh, location for you, you know, continue, just keep at it. I know attorneys that, uh, went to several firms for a very short period of time and ultimately found their place. Either they started their own firm, they went in house, they found another firm. Uh, some of them, you know, you know, again, I’ve been at my firm for a number of years. I was fortunate in that respect. But each of us has our own journey and each of us has to figure that out on our own. 

Rob Hanna: [00:27:18] Yeah. And, you know, as, as, as busy lawyers, how do you fit in, you know, extracurricular or, you know, what do you do for downtimes in terms of, talk us through a typical day for you?

Frank Ramos: [00:27:29] A typical day now in COVID-19 is a bit different than it was just a few months ago, but going back before we were all self-isolating, I get into work. Yeah, pretty early. Um, and then during the day, I’d make time to deal with sort of extracurricular activity, whether they were voluntary bar associations, finding time to meet with young lawyers, meet up for coffee, and it’s just calendaring and finding time is so important.

It’s just putting things down in your calendar and making time for it. If you don’t make time for it, it’s not going to happen. And so often we, each of us has plans and ideas and things that we want to pursue. And its sort of on the back burner and it’s launched on the back so it will remain there until we actually put it down on the calendar. It could be during a weekday or the evening on the weekends. It typically doesn’t happen. So, I know for some of us, we don’t like to put everything on our calendar. We want to have a lot more free time, but that’s probably the most effective thing. If there’s something you really want to do. Put it on your calendar and make time for it.

And when it, when it comes up in your calendar, if you keep ignoring or pushing it to the side, you have to be honest with yourself and say, do you really want that, do that extracurricular activity or not? I think the things we’re really passionate about, we find time for things we’re not particularly passionate about kind of push aside. So, for example, I like to write, and I like to write books. I talked a lot of people who want to write books. And I think the easiest way to write a book is a commit to a word count each day and say, I’m going to write X number of words each day, 500, 1,500 or whatever it might be.

And for those who don’t do it. I wonder if they’re really that committed, to writing a book and that’s fine. They may not want to write a book. Uh, you know, I know people who have been talking about writing books 10, 15, 20 years, and maybe they’re better off doing something else. Uh, you know, there’s lots of things I don’t pursue.

I don’t pursue painting or taking photographs or golf or traveling. Um, 

Rob Hanna: [00:29:25] My sources. Tell me though, Frank, that you’re into your jazz and you’re an amateur movie critic, is this correct? 

Frank Ramos: [00:29:31] Uh, yeah, you might, as both of my boys play music, my older one, uh, is attending Florida state. He’s a senior to be a classical conductor.

My younger one is a freshman at University of Miami where he’s a jazz musician and, uh, I, they do not get it from me. That’s for sure. Very, uh trained and very talented in their respective areas. And early on, we exposed them to a lot of jazz and classical music and that’s sort of, uh, remained a thing we do. In terms of movies as a family, we always watch a lot of movies together. We’re terrible to watch a movie with as a minute when we start, we’re trying to figure out how it ends, come up with lines and various actors trying to figure out the plot structure. So. Maybe it’s just part of the analytics to being a lawyer, but that’s kind of what we do.

Uh, yeah. Watching movies with us is not very fun. Let’s put it that way. 

Rob Hanna: [00:30:22] Okay. And as we look to wrap up Frank, it’s probably a million-dollar question, but in terms of what do you think will be one of the, the biggest changes to the legal sector as a result of COVID-19? 

Frank Ramos: [00:30:34] I think first. We’re going to have a much smaller footprint in the real estate sector.

I think a lot of law firms have realized that they can work remotely. Yeah, they can work remotely. They don’t need to have huge offices and use conference rooms and people can share offices. They can share space, office space, and suddenly that office that had X number of square feet can now have Y square feet.

And looking forward, they can reduce their overhead rentals and leases are a big part of any law firm. I think a lot of law firms have realized that working from home wasn’t so bad, there are a lot of more senior lawyers who went into this kicking and screaming and dragging their feet and hating the idea of working remotely.

And I can’t tell you how many senior lawyers called me or texted me or emailed me saying that this was the end of the law firms and their culture and those very same lawyers now, no four, six, eight weeks since this are realizing it’s not so bad ,that it can be done that yes, we do need to have a culture where we see each other person meet each other.

That’s fine. But you can have a happy medium where people can work from home one or more days a week. People can, you know, talk to each other with phone, don’t have to be, uh, at beck and call at the office. And I think, especially with younger lawyers and no, the millennials among us, uh, they like to work from home.

They like that flexibility, they like, uh, being able to work on their laptop or their desktop at home. Um, and yes, so there is, I think certain things that have been certain tensions that have been brewing for a while in terms of working remotely in terms of, uh, smaller spaces in terms of kind of pushing out these, uh, these old traditional ideas, new, more modern ideas COVID-19 is sort of brought out to the forefront, looking at technology, obviously.

Yeah, technology. I mean much more at the forefront now because of COVID-19. So, it’s all very tragic. A lot of life loss, a lot of issues, a lot of people losing their jobs. No one would ever want this, but if there’s a silver lining in any of this it’s that it’s forcing the legal field to become much more technologically savvy and catch up with the rest of commerce and industry. 

Rob Hanna: [00:32:46] And that’s something I’m immensely sort of passionate about as well as sort of trying to shift the perspective and getting the legal sector sort of at the forefront with the other sectors. So Frank, it’s been a, it’s been a real pleasure having you on the show. If people have been as inspired as I have, and I’m sure they will be listening into your episode today, if they want to follow or get in touch, I know you’re very big on giving back is how are they best to do that? 

Frank Ramos: [00:33:09] Sure. If you want to follow me on LinkedIn, I think I’ve tapped out of connections, but you’re welcome to follow me. On LinkedIn you can find my email address, my contact information and you’re welcome to email me or contact me. Oh, that’s on our website, Clarke Silverglate I know that as well. And you’re welcome to download my books. They’re free. They’re directed to lawyers about leadership public speaking. I think my last one is getting published. That’s going to be released in a couple of weeks and get published. Uh, I’m doing one. I do on LinkedIn, specifically, LinkedIn for Lawyers, which lawyers may find relevant.

So, uh, I’m available. Uh, I’m easy to find. Uh, I’m almost always open to communicating. If you message me, I can send you my cell phone number and we can talk about whatever you want to talk about.

Rob Hanna: [00:33:53] That’s great. Thanks so much. It’s been a real pleasure having you on, as I said, Frank, I’m sure we’ll see you again and not too distant future on the Legally Speaking Podcast as well.

I should have mentioned you also host your own fabulous podcast, but you know, we could go on and on, but it’s seriously, it’s been an absolute pleasure. Thanks so much, Frank and you stay safe.

Frank Ramos: [00:34:10] Thank you so much for the opportunity. And it’s been a huge pleasure.

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