How to Stand Out & Succeed During Your Training Contract – Sophie Shaw – S4E19

Rob Hanna (00:00):

Welcome to the legally speaking podcast. I’m your host, Rob Hanna this week. I’m delighted to be joined by Sophie Shaw. Sophie is an associate at Bryan Cave Leighton Paisner LLP specializing in restructuring and insolvency. Sophie is also the creator of the law with Sophie blog, which aims to help individuals who have a lack of industry connections and information thrive in this industry. Sophie has previously worked as a product marketing advisor at Linklaters. During this time she worked on a comment to the Warsaw office. In addition to all of this, Sophie is a mentor with grow mentoring and has also been featured in the lawyer and the law careers.net. So a very, very warm welcome Sophie.

Sophie Shaw (00:46):

Thanks so much. thank you for having me. I’m so excited to be here.

Rob Hanna (00:49):

It’s an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. And before we dive into all your amazing achievements and what you’ve been up to, we do have our customer icebreaker question here on the legally speaking podcast, which is on the scale of one to 10, 10 being very real. What would you rate the hit TV series suits in terms of its reality?

Sophie Shaw (01:10):

Oh, in terms of my reality. I’d give it a solid, like two out of 10, Rob. I don’t know anyone that stones into court and swears at judges and, you know, any lawyers that have enough energy to have rendezvous in the library cupboard. So no.

Rob Hanna (01:28):

Yeah, a bit of, A bit of harsh reality, I think a two is, is well justified in your response that we are going to be talking a lot today about sort of some of the skills and various elements, but I just want to start by telling us a little bit about your, your family background and upbringing. Tell us a bit about you.

Sophie Shaw (01:45):

Yeah, absolutely. So, um, you might have detected a bit of an accent I’m from Manchester originally. So that’s where I grew up in your classic, like Northern family household. I went to a mixture of schools, actually, I moved around. So I’ve sort of seen the whole gamut of like state schools, grammar schools, private schools, so on. So it was a bit of a checkered blanket of experience. But I think overall in terms of length of time, I’m a candidate that has to say on application forms that I’m primarily state school educated. Um, so, you know, socially mobile, all that. And so that was sort of like my upbringing. And then I, uh, went to university a long, long time ago now to do business. And I was like completely elitist about that. I was like, right, I’m doing business. I want to go to the best business school.

Sophie Shaw (02:39):

So I did that. I got the grades and off I trotted to bath university and then I go to enter the legal profession and I find out that people don’t like bath university. They don’t think it’s very good. It’s not a great university. So then I realize, oh, I’m in this category of people I’m in club, this non Russel group club, which I think has become something that’s become a recurring sort of motif throughout my legal career and also started the law blog and chatting to people that way. There are so many people that feel disadvantaged because they went to a normal group uni. So I loved it anyway, I thought was fantastic uni. I did business, as I said. So I, um, also had two placement as part of that two, six month placements. Um, one was dead random and shipping and one was, and actually, yeah, you know, a real kind of kismet opportunity.

Sophie Shaw (03:33):

One was an in touch if I had with an accountancy firm in restructured insolvency, and that was what really ignited my passion for the industry. And ultimately, I guess you could say, has led to maybe where I am today as a restruction insolvency practitioner. So I did that. I graduated and I always I’d want it to do law, um, without being like too long-winded about it. I was very pragmatic when I was applying to university because it was right in the middle of the financial crisis. Um, and so I thought I’ll if i go to do business. It will give me a really broad base loads of skills, which was all very true, but law was like, it was like that thing that you just couldn’t, it’s like the one that got away, I just couldn’t get it out of my mind. And I carried on doing law module.

Sophie Shaw (04:15):

So did law and level and did law modules at uni as well. And by the end of my degree, I was chomping at the bit. I was desperate to crack on with the GDL. So I took myself off to do that, did the GDL and also paralegal the part-time. I was just getting as much legal experience as possible. Everything I could get my hands on, basically finished the GDL and, um, was coming to sort of like the end of summer. And because of that experience that I’d had on my degree, doing a bit of marketing, um, coupled with the GDL, for some reason, recruiters were just like coming out of the woodwork left right and center to offer me legal marketing roles. So as you mentioned, I took the role at Linklaters and again, another real, like if that hadn’t happened, I probably wouldn’t be where I am today.

Sophie Shaw (04:59):

I took that role and I was basically writing pitches for the business aligned to a few departments, but essentially supporting throughout the business. And that role was just instrumental in teaching me so, so much that I know now hold dear and know um, again, try not to bore people by going into too much detail, but I think it will come up that the course of this episode, you know, a lot of the skills that I’ve learned and I think pretty important I got from that role, but ultimately I thought that I was going to be a gap whilst it was applied for training contracts. And no, it’s a bit tough out there. It’s a bit tough. So I was there two, three years in the end, I’d had some incredible opportunities, pitched some incredible clients, as you said, I went on to Kahneman and when I loved it, loved it, loved it, but you know, the training contracts needed to be obtained. And I finally got one with my firm off the back of a vac scheme in 2016, where i sat with the restruction insolvency team again, bringing that in. Yeah. Chest back. How did a fantastic time secured? My training contract finally started training in thousand 19 and as a face. Yeah, I’ve qualified and come full circle or, and I associate at my firm.

Rob Hanna (06:05):

All right. Hey, congratulations. And what a great story. So, uh, I love what you’re doing and that’s truly inspiring for a number of our listeners. So you touched on training contracts. So what is the key piece of advice you have for indisviduals in order to stand out during their training contract? Do you think taking initiative?

Sophie Shaw (06:26):

It’s definitely a really big part of it. I think taking initiative is all that a lot of people can ask of a trainee, when people points are good juniors and good trainees specifically, is those people that are all over it. And they’re really getting stuck in, but being proactive, they’re enthusiastic and motivated. I think that is a huge, huge thing. If nothing else, you know, your technical knowledge might not be there. We make mistakes as trainees. That’s normal. What if at the end of the day, you are super proactive, enthusiastic. That is always an attribute. That’s going to go down really, really well. And it’s going to make you stand out in your training contract. And I think it’s, that’s the goal is trying to stand out. The last thing you want is to leave a department and a couple of seat rotations go by and somebody mentioned, oh, do you remember that trainee? We had Sophie. And that just like, you know, it’s all about making an impact. And I think one of the most effective ways of making an impact is showing that you’ve got initiative, you care and you are really proactive. Yeah.

Rob Hanna (07:27):

Love that answer. My next question was going to be, what does taking initiative mean to you? And you mentioned sort of enthusiastic impact. What, how would you sort of describe it in a nutshell from a, from a legal kind of trainee perspective? What does it mean? Initiative means?

Sophie Shaw (07:39):

Yeah, absolutely. So I think it’s about offering to do absolutely everything to the point where you think you’re annoying people, if anything comes in and it does feel a bit annoying now because we are remote to respond to every email you want me to send that? Do you want me to do this? You want me to do that? It is literally a case of doing that. You are there to make everybody’s life easier, should be your mantra. And essentially you should try and do everything. And it’s not just those like things where it’s like, admin, I’ll do this, I’ll do that to make your life easier. It’s also for your learning to build those technical skills. And some stuff you’ll know is within your core. Right? And I always think some trainees think I’ll just stay in my lane. If it’s adminy it’s me. And it’s like, no, if somebody says, we need to, um, put these documents together as part of this deal, why not have a go at it? Why not stick your hand up? Why not say I’ve never drafted security documents before? Do you mind if I have a first crack, they will absolutely love it. People love it. They’re like, oh, okay. So if he’s interested, like this is something she’s interested in and anything is easier to review than to draft. So the associates are going to love it. If they’ve got some thin, your draft might be rubbish, but that’s fine because it’s always easier to amend than to draft from scratch. And as your legal skills develop, you get way more used to looking critically at other people’s work than necessarily drafting from scratch because you know, you’ve done it so much. And so yeah. Sticking your hand up absolutely everything. It’s not just about saying yes to the opportunities that come in to you. It’s about being all over everything and being super, super keen, which can be slightly exhausting. I’m not going to lie because it’s like being switched on constantly being like, I’ll do that. I’ll do that. So I do think it’s definitely smart to be mindful that you’re not overexposing yourself and kind of like spreading yourself too thin, but yeah, being key,

Rob Hanna (09:29):

Love that. So loving that being proactive. And it’s one of my early sports coaches said to me, um, AIE ’attitude is everything’. I think if you have a candidate proactive, go get an attitude, then people will really buy and respond. Love that.

Sophie Shaw (09:41):

That is so true Rob. Attitiude is everything. And I think the trainees that really stand out have a great attitude. It literally is that you’ve hit the nail on the head.

Rob Hanna (09:51):

Yeah. And you know, something I, I stick by and it’s what I look for is as well and people, okay. So in your law with Sophie blog, which I’m a big fan of, by the way, you’ve talked about how to be a fantastic trainee solicitor by discussing the essential qualities trainees need to tell. So tell us a bit more about these. Tell us what about these qualities they really need to possess to be a really technically good trainee.

Sophie Shaw (10:18):

Yeah, absolutely. So the big one that we’ve touched on already is proactivity. So just to touch on some of the others, I think resilience is massive. There’s a few different sort of conceptions that I have of that. I think when most people think resilience and when you go to a law firm and you get like a training on resilience and things like that, it’s, it’s more stamina than resilience. It’s like, okay, how can you know, juggle the demands of this really stressful line of work? How can you be resilient in terms of your mental health and your physical health? I do think there’s an element of that because it’s trainees, the more you do, the more you learn. So if you’ve got a good attitude to it, which obviously, as we’ve said, we’d encourage, you should be doing as much as you can.

Sophie Shaw (10:59):

And sometimes that does mean the art late night, because the more you do, the more you learn. So the more you throw yourself at it, and the more you get involved, the more you will take away from it. You’ve only got six months in a given department to learn as much as possible. And so without sounding like a massive SWAT, you’ve just got to get stuck in and do as much as you possibly can. But obviously the flip side of that is you do need to really look after yourself and make sure that you are building that resilience. And that stamina to me, though, the much more important part of resilience and the side that doesn’t get talked about as much as picking yourself back up after knock backs. And that is a huge part of being a trainee because you make mistakes all the long day, every day.

Rob Hanna (11:37):

What do you do? What advice would you say to others around that resilience or facing those knock-backs to build on it?

Sophie Shaw (11:42):

It’s about being Rebust It’s about not taking it personally. And it’s about joining on day. One, realizing that you are the very, the very bottom of the chain being a trainee is a real leveler. It doesn’t matter what experience you’ve got in life. Everybody’s going to make mistakes all day, every day. You might be a really technically strong trainee that happens to like, love the law of the black matter of law and stuff like that. But you might have no common sense equally. You could be a really pragmatic person, but technically you drafting is not quite that people at law firms hire all different types of people for all different reasons. And we’re all growing and learning every day. It is just the biggest learning curve ever. So I think managing your own expectations and having a great attitude, again, just being like, it’s not personal, it’s just feedback on my work.

Sophie Shaw (12:27):

It’s not a reflection of me personally. Everybody is here to encourage me and to develop me to be a good lawyer. They’re not, you know, doing this for any of the reason. Um, so yeah, being really robust an having a good amount of self-awareness I think really helps because then it’s not this crashing realization, you know, just having those moments of reflection and trying to encourage a self-awareness of what your strengths and your weaknesses are, because then if you’re getting picked up on those weaknesses, it’s like, yeah, I know that’s something I’m working on. And here’s how I’m working on it, rather than just being like crestfallen. But somebody happens to have seen any negativity, you know, how you present yourself, because I think, I don’t know if you’d agree with this Rob, but I think a lot of people that go into the legal industry are like type A perfectionist.

Sophie Shaw (13:14):

So they can take critical feedback. Quite personally, they can take it to heart because they’re used to be in the tall poppy and they used to performing really well. But ultimately you only join a law firm. You have to accept because a trainee you’re like the least smart person. Now you’re surrounded by people that are insanely brainy and way more experienced than you. So it’s about learning from them. It’s not personal front to you. They’re teaching you and coaching you and helping you grow. And so, yeah, that, that is the huge part of resilience for me. And when you get feedback, it’s about action in it. And it’s about learning for next time. They’re very frustrating. Part of being a trainee is everybody’s going to give you different feedback and they’re gonna want something done in their in particular way. So you’ll think you’ll nailed something and then you do the samething for somebody else and you get constructive feedback all over again. You just can’t take it personally. You have to take these things, not as setbacks, but like, got it noted, change that and just learn for next time. If you can’t do that, then it’s not really a profession that ultimately might be for you because I joined this profession because I want to be learning and developing as a lawyer until the day I’ll give it up. That’s why a lot of people are attracted to the profession because you, you can’t get bored by something that’s continually evolving. Unfortunately for us, the law‘s always changing it and market practice is always changing. So you can’t be like, nailed it. I’m an awesome trainee. I’m an awesome lawyer is constantly in a state of flux. Um, so yeah, that’s how I’ve tried to deal with it. And I think it was really well. And I think that’s a reality check that most trainees need to have something.

Rob Hanna (14:46):

And I guess that leads to motivation. Doesn’t it not taking it? I was going to say, how do you overcome, you know, when you get those motivation, which is linked to resilience, I think you’ve just hit the nail on the head by not taking it personally. And just understanding anything that you get told is hopefully going to help you improve, you know, failure is just part of the process. You know, you learn as you go, you know, learn as you go to grow and all of that good stuff. So I’m absolutely loving that. Okay. So I want to talk about something that I’m particularly passionate about as a, as a disruptor in the legal industry, from a recruiting services perspective, but with the industry being increasingly more saturated, it’s more and more important for people to build that personal brand and be visible. What is your advice on doing this? Because I think you’re doing a wonderful job.

Sophie Shaw (15:26):

Thanks, Rob. Um, again, my advice, I think so much of this comes back to being really keen and enthusiastic. My advice is to just get front and center of your team so important right now. And we’re working from home as well to go above and beyond because those little interactions you might have had in the office, just to ask you making a coffee in the kitchen, or everybody’s going to the canteens together, your brand was naturally in your profile and the team was naturally being built without you having to try everything. Now requires much more productivity in terms of building your brand and your network. I always say to trainees, if you’re remotely interested in a department and you want it to come across, as you’re interested in a department, when you join, go out of your way to introduce yourself to everybody, the team might do that anyway, they might be like, oh, we’ve got this new trainee, Sophie she sat in this room or, you know, if we’re not in the office, drop her a note and say hi, but if they don’t do that, then it’s really on you. That is kind of the thing. It sounds really obvious. But I think a lot of people concept being a trainee solicitors are first time jobs. So they perhaps don’t realize people aren’t going to go out of their way to put you in front of the team. Sometimes it’s really on you. So I always encourage people to do that and introduce themselves to people. I also always encourage people to put some time in with the partners in the team. Even it says loads of them, it can be gradual over the course of your seat, because obviously you will start to work with the partners and get to know them in that way. Because the best way I think to get to know your colleagues is on matters. But if you’re not naturally working with some people, but you’re really interested in the type of work, drop them a note and say, Hey, Rob, I’m really interested in learning what you do. What’s your practice? Do you have 10 minutes for a quick virtual coffee? Because I’d love to learn more. Nobody said no to me, my experience, and I don’t know anybody. Who’s had a no to that question. And do you know why I think that is Rob, because people love talking about themselves and particularly lawyers, you know, we’re wordsmiths and people that are in a partnership level, love mentoring juniors as well. So if you can show that you’re interested, then they love it. They absolutely love it. Taking that ownership for your personal brand right from the beginning is so, so important because trainees get a reputation they do. And when you get the list in your team, you know, now I noticed associates that this is who’s joining us as a training. You’re like, oh yeah, I heard about her. Like I heard she’s paid good. Actually we worked with her on this deal and made a good impact. Your reputation will proceed yourself. So your personal brand should definitely be something that is a priority from the get-go of being a trainee. Doesn’t absolve you of that in any way. And it’s definitely on you to go out of your way and forge those connections.

Rob Hanna (18:03):

Love that answer as well. Okay. Do you also believe that it’s important for trainees to establish themselves as reliable individuals?

Sophie Shaw (18:14):

Yeah. I think that’s huge. I mean, I think that’s huge for a lot of industries to be honest, Rob, but the thing with law is we have to be seen to be reliable anyway, it so, so important for our clients, that our advice is accurate and reliable. But then, you know, obviously as a trainee in relation to your peers and your colleagues, there’s so many things that come in to build in a reliable trainee, which is honestly just nailing the basics. And I don’t think there’s any reason why somebody shouldn’t be able to, to now for me, a reliable trainee is somebody that’s responsive. So I’m not saying you have to get back to emails within 10 minutes. We all know that your outbox can go mental, but you can’t sit on an email for hours just to hold our email. Just hi associate, thanks for email, just finishing a task, but I’ll get to that responsiveness people know that you’re on it. They don’t need to worry you don’t not reply to them. And they just, they have to think what’s going on with that task. Like, so if your work on that task show that you’re reliable and that you will do what has been asked to be also the second thing I think is meeting timeframes. So doing the work that’s been asked of you in the right timeframe, things happen that might prevent you from doing that. And again, it’s just about communication. If anything comes up and you can’t meet a deadline, you have to communicate it because if you miss a deadline, obviously you’re not reliable. So it’s really simple things. It’s just communicating with people about deadlines being responsive. And I think the third thing that I would just mention is, again, linked slide point. We would just previously discuss it ties in with the resilience point when somebody gives you feedback. I think another really good way of showing that you’re reliable is that you action feedback. You don’t want an associateto be picking you up on the same stuff again and again, it’s frustrating for them. And it shows that you might not necessarily like have that enthusiasm or care that much, if you can be responsive, communicative, and action feedback, this is like, this is a reliable trainee that we don’t need to worry about when we tell them something. Or when we ask something off them, they get it done. And we don’t need to worry about whether that’s going to get done and whether it’s going to get done. Right. That’s all they can ask for that has to teach you and to pick up on the mistakes you’re making. That’s fine. But if you can show that you can reliably deliver within the confines of all that they’ll love it.

Rob Hanna (20:25):

Love that answer as well. Yes. Really enjoying this conversation Sophie. Okay. Before we, we wrap up, how do you think trainees can be proactive when qualifying into that chosen practice area?

Sophie Shaw (20:38):

Oh. theres so much you can do here. Oh, it’s a real, it’s a real cringy time and it’s a real putting yourself out there. And I think a lot of people struggle with it. I’ve got to admit, Rob I on ashamed of about it from the beginning because the specific department I’ve qualified into was super competitive at my firm. So I really threw the buck at it. Um, to begin with it was looking very competitive for me to even get a seat in the department. And obviously for a lot of practice areas, you can’t really qualify into that team. If you haven’t done a seat there, I think there’s shades of gray within that. Obviously cross qualification might be an option for some things like, well, oen ligitation seat to a different ligitation seat, for example. But if that’s the type of work that you purely haven’t done, it’d be really hard for you to qualify that team.So from the very beginning of my training contract, I was like, hello grad rack, It’s me, as you know, I really want restriction insolvency. You know, let’s make that happen. And as I went through my training contract, it was becoming increasingly unlikely. And I have to get to the point where I was like, okay, at this point, I don’t care what you give me. I just need R and I, there’s not a world where I don’t qualify into R and I at this firm. So come on, let’s make it happen, guys. So managing graduate expectations and to be honest just really champion yourself and advocating for yourself and your career. You need to be very, very proactive with Grad work and being like, I know you gotta try and present different qualification options to me. This is the one I really, really want. And I’m happy to take strategic advice, but ultimately for me, I’m loving this seat and I really want to qualify into it again It’s completely on you. Um, its a recurring theme, isn’t it at this conversation, but obviously your career is in your hands and grad rec will be more than happy to qualify anywhere. They just care about their statistics. So you have to really champion yourself there. And also the second thing is just a huge amount of schmoozing with the partners in the team that you want to qualify into. I had been in touch with the partners in the R and I team at my firm throughout my training contract, because I was just like, hello. Uh, I’m not gonna get to sit with you. It’s really sad, but I really want to qualify with you. And it got to the point where at like mixers and things like that, because our grad rec team would hold kind of these like fairs like seat fairs, where you could go and chat to the teams and be like, what’s your department like? Should I do a seat? I would always turn up for these things like me again. Hello. And the R and I partners were just like, hi Sophie, why don’t you join us? Is it this time? Is it next? I’m like, I think you should have a word with the grad rec Because they’re saying I’m not going to be able to sit in the team and just have those conversations. And, you know, ultimately when push came to shove as my final seats, I got the department. And when I was in the seat, luckily I’d already worked with them a lot on insidery matters. So when I was sat in corporate and when I’ve sat in finance, I’d worked with the alumni guys and kind of had the nod from them. And the head of the team was like, I really hope you do join our team at some point and then when I was in the team, he rang me on kind of week one, week two. And he was like, how’s it going? What do you think? And I was like, obviously, you know, I’ve always wanted to seat, but just so you know, I’m loving it so far. It’s very early days, but I love to have that chat about qualifying into the team. And he was like, don’t see why that’s not a problem, but I can’t commit to anything. Thanks for letting me know. And then they know where they’re at with headcount and resource. And the thing that you have to think about, there’s so much we could talk about qualifications. So well, I’ll try and wrap it up soon. But the thing you have to think about qualification is partners have to plan their pipeline at least three to six months in advance, which is actually super hard because depending on what work they’ve got on, they might not necessarily have the need for an NQL or a want for an NQL But if you’re in a team and they’re like, we can’t miss out on this person, they’ll find the headcount from somewhere on the flip side, you might have told them, yeah, I’m definitely qualified into the team. I love it. And they think, awesome. So if you’re a dead set, you decided to go to another team and then they’ve got spare head calm they’ve campaigned for and pushed for, but it doesn’t get used. So it’s in everybody’s interest for everyone to be transparent and put the cards on the table. And that’s what I did with the partners in my team. And they were just like, we’re really happy with the work you doing And we want you to apply. And I was like, great. I’m really glad we had these conversations from an early stage and new where i was at. And you can’t leave anything to chance. You need to have really open honest conversations with all parties involved and yeah really push for what you want. That’s if you knew what you want. Cause I know a lot of people get stuck in their final seat and they’re undecided. And I just think you have to chat with as many people as possible in that circumstance. I still did that. I think you can’t go wrong if you’re trying to all the associates and the partners and just being like, do you think this is right for me? Whatever. Just again, proactivity, just going out of your way to really make an informed decision as possible and put it on the right people’s radar that, that you’re going to apply to the team. Or are you thinking of applying to the team would be my advice

Rob Hanna (25:21):

Great advice as well. So just to try and sum up that, that wonderful answer, I would say one it’s it’s, self-belief two it’s wit, whatever it takes three it’s ultimate accountability in terms of, you know, if it’s meant to be it’s up to me, there’s not the w what-ifs it’s you’ve got to go out and make it happen. You network, you meet people, you go above and beyond. You get noticed and no is not an answer you’re interested in. I think that’s really powerful. And ultimately that’s what the show is all about its inspiring. You’ve been there. You’ve done that. And I’m just so happy. We’ve had you on the show, learning more about what you’re doing and how you’re giving back because you’re a busy associate now in a top, top, top international law firm. And you’re still finding time to come on shows like this and help the next generation of lawyers. So yeah, it’s been a real pleasure having you on the show. So if people want to follow or get in touch with you about anything we’ve discussed today, I’m sure they will. What’s the best way for them to do that. Feel free to shout out any of your web links or social media handles. And we’ll also share them with the special episode too.

Sophie Shaw (26:17):

Amazing the best way peoples get in contact with me is definitely on Instagram. I’m on that all the time. And anybody that chats to me on their t knows that I, you know, the DMS are very much alive. I’m always there to help people with bits of nuggets and advice for sort of longer form content. Um, if people are preparing for their training contract or if they’re still at assessment center application stage, there’s loads of resources on my blog where I talk about training life. And I have a couple of downloadable guides as well. If people are still at the application stage and they want to brush up on the commercial awareness, well, they just don’t know how to start researching law firms. But yeah, I’m happy to speak to anybody who is about to become a trainee or they are in application stage or whatever as you say is something I took alongside work, but it’s basically my hobby now. And pretty much I only hobby except, you know, drinking wine. So I’ve, I’m very much here at everyones disposal, and I’ve absolutely loved to be on the show today.

Rob Hanna (27:11):

Uh, thank you so so much Sophie, we’ve loved having you on the show. It’s been an absolute pleasure. We want to wish you lots of continued success with your legal careers and all your future pursuits, butfrom all of us on the legally speaking podcast over and out,

Rob Hanna (27:23):

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Rob Hanna (27:44):

Thank you for listening to this episode of the Legally Speaking Podcast. If you enjoyed the show and want to help support us, remember to leave us a rating and review on apple iTunes, you can also support the show and gain exclusive benefits bonus content, uh, much more by signing up to our Patreon page, which is www.patreon.com/legallyspeakingpodcast. Thanks for listening.