“Always work on making people the best version of themselves and giving them the power to drive their own career.” – Ian Bagshaw

On today’s episode, I’m delighted to have Ian Bagshaw from Ashurst Perkins Coie on the Legally Speaking Podcast.

Ian Bagshaw is a commercially minded legal leader whose career has been shaped by adaptability, entrepreneurial instinct and a belief that judgment matters more than hierarchy. In this conversation, he reflects on moving quickly away from work that did not suit him, building a technology-focused London legal business with a clear strategy, and creating a culture where people are trusted, developed fast, and encouraged to take ownership of their careers. He argues that AI will transform how legal work is delivered, but that the lasting differentiators will be client relationships, sound judgment, and talent capable of learning continuously. He also sees the legal market becoming more global, more competitive, and more divided between major international firms, focused boutiques, and AI-native businesses—while maintaining that exceptional service, value, and strong human cultures remain the foundation of success.

So why should you be listening in? 

You can hear Rob and Ian discussing:

– Judgment Remaining as Law’s Enduring Advantage

– Technology Reshaping Delivery, Not Client Expectations

– Accelerate Talent Through Trust and Coaching

– Global Scale Drives Legal-Market Consolidation

– Relationships and Culture Build Sustainable Success.

Connect with Ian Bagshaw here – https://uk.linkedin.com/in/ianbagshaw

Transcript

Be coachable and accelerate your learning. 

One of the key decisions was switching practice areas quickly and then working in something which basically suited my personality, entrepreneurial, probably something like a disruptor, people who want to make a difference and bring some innovation in terms of what you do. And then being agile enough intellectually, I could gather different ideas, different processes and put them into a solution which I could roll through internally or externally with clients. 

That outcome’s consistent in the same way that clients always want value for money and fantastic advice. So that’s never going to change. I think the concept of being a trusted advisor is always going to be relevant in the business of law, particularly in relation to client service. How you build that trust, what foundations you use to generate content to perform legal services, that’s really changing really quickly.

On today’s Legally Speaking podcast, sponsored by Clio, I’m delighted to be joined by Ian Bagshaw. Ian is the managing partner at Ashurst Perkins Couie in London. He is a corporate lawyer with more than 30 years experience advising on cross-border transactions. Over the course of his career, Ian has held senior positions at some of the world’s leading international law firms, including Clifford Chance, Link Laters, and White and Case. Most recently, Ian played a key role in building

Perkins Coey’s London office from the ground up, before becoming a key figure in the merger of Perkins Couey and Ashurst. Ian also served as the chair of Zero Gravity, an award-winning organization assisting talented students from different backgrounds to access the UK’s top universities and careers. Today we will explore what it takes to build a new international law firm, the strategy behind the Ashurst Perkins Couie combination, and why super mergers are becoming increasingly popular.

So, a very big warm welcome to the show, Ian. Thanks, Rob. Lovely to be here. It’s an absolute pleasure to finally have you on the show. Before we get into your illustrious career and all the great stuff you’ve been doing in and around the world of lore, we have a couple of quick fire icebreaker questions for you. Firstly, what’s your favorite beverage and what’s your preferred choice of footwear on a typical workday? Beverage, I think that would be just a lovely cup of coffee. Espresso macchiato. Very nice, very nice. Okay. And to compliment with footwear?

Ath leisure trainers, smart casual trainers. I kind of think as I’ve got older, I’ve started wearing more comfort shoes. I can’t remember the last time I wore a pair of shoes with a leather sole, so I’m now down with the kids. Absolutely. And another question, and I’m sure we’ll talk about this a lot later on, but what’s one piece of legal tech or everyday technology you now rely on that you would have thought was unthinkable at the start of your career? I think that’s just like using basic AI like co pilot.

where I can understand the situation live. If I speak to someone, they mention a company name, they mention investor, they mention a founder. Having the access to look at what that means in context and deal with it in that moment, you know, kind of has just simplified, you know, kind of my go-to-market in the last two, three years. So when I was previously practicing in the first career, you know, you’d have to get a memo or an email

It would take like a day’s planning. It’s now like if there’s Wi-Fi, you know, I can do it, you know, on the tube or on you know, kind of cab in the way in, or even if I’m at lunch with someone, they can mention something and I can put the pieces together really quickly. So I think as you get older, you know, experience basically means that you’ve got judgment to put into a situation, but not necessarily the fact pattern. Just that access to the fact pattern and the data.

in a structured way just makes you way more dangerous. And dangerous being the right word. You know, sometimes you can pull it off, sometimes it’s like somebody look at you go like, What do you mean? Then you’ve looked up the wrong company or something. But that’s more a prospect of age, I think. yeah, absolutely. And look, just with that answer alone, I’m very excited to get into today’s discussion. So let’s maybe go back and reflect on your career journey at at the start in could you talk us through your journey from obviously studying law at the University of Sheffield to sort of managing partner where you sit today?

I studied law with football. I think in those days, you know, the study cycle at university was not so intense. You basically had end of year exams and in between starting and those exams, up to you how you prepared. I I prepared quite loosely. I was a bit of a crammer, I played a lot of sport, so I had a you know, rich university life, but basically deep academic pursuits were not really in the top five things I got through.

You know at university. I think you know, I I ended up studying law because I didn’t really know what else to do. You know, first person in my family to go to uni, it looked quite cool, looked like you got a job at the end of it. there was a TV program in the eighties called LA Law. One of the guys had a Porsche, I thought that would be great coming from Ackmington. could I pull it off? So I ended up looking at law and then when I went into study law,

I thought it didn’t look like it did on TV. You know, it was quite dry, you know, kind of subject matter. And then I accidentally got a job in a firm called Hepworth and Chadwick. Accidentally meaning I lived with a guy who said a trainee had dropped out. training contract starts in a month. Why don’t you apply? I was gonna do something else to do with sport, football coaching. And so I applied. I didn’t have the student debt burden a lot of the talent does now. I was a full grant student, so

I was relatively free, you know, to make a choice in terms of career ’cause I didn’t have a debt burden to pay off. I went for the interview, got the job, started off one of twelve trainees at Hepworth and Chadwick, and then the career fund started from there. It absolutely did. And you spent more than three decades advising on cross border transactions. So what were the turning points of Hang on, hang on. When I started having Hepford and Chadwick, there was no cross border transaction.

It was mainly if I was getting across the county lines, I was doing well. Exotic was Exotic was selling a company in Nottingham from Lee. So Two great cities we must have. Yeah, fair comment, fair comment. Okay, so let let’s pull along the journey then to where you have been spending these this this amount of time on some really impressive you know, cross border transactional work.

What were the turning points which really shaped your career and led you to take senior positions? Good question. Turning point. So first turning point was I qualified into construction litigation. Wow. So that turning point was when I realized I’d made a horrendous mistake and chosen a team that I liked, thinking the work was gonna be good. I soon realized I liked the team, but the work when I was doing a dispute in relation to pollution of a canal

in Leeds, I was thinking like, I can’t do this. So within four weeks, I’d reversed out of construction litigation and worked with you know, a relatively independent thinker, Reed Maverick, partner doing management buyouts. So I’d first key turning point was realize I’d made a mistake and do something about it before it got too deep. So I switched to corporate

at that stage with a focus on a management buyout, which meant that I just worked with one partner in the leads office primarily, a guy called Ian Richardson. And you know, that was the start of a very different learning experience. You know, I’d gone from a training contract relatively traditional to having to be very entrepreneurial from day one in terms of sourcing mandates, working out you know how you did

things there were no you know kind of internet then there was no real precedent system you had to build things up from basic principles and to get those principles you had to spend time with people to understand what they were and I was lucky. I I grew up with many gaps in my office which I had to fill. So I had no really senior associates, no intermediation between myself and a lot of the partners in the office. They were great partners. So I got an education

from the get go, which was really developing my judgment because they assumed I had an engine to get work done, but they wanted me to develop my judgment so that I could act as autonomously or independently as possible and call for supervision when I needed it. Now at the time that was like a kind of wax on, wax off moment from you know if you know what I mean, from Karate Kid, because I didn’t realise what they were giving me was an amazing career lesson.

which I could take with me on my journey. You know, and I look now at some of the talent that started in bigger law firms and they just don’t get that. You know, and I think that the way firms train people traditionally, you know, there’s a lot to improve there because if now, you know, with the technology you know kind of acceleration that’s pending or is already here, the key things to teach people are judgment and how to do things you don’t know how to do.

You know, if you can solve a problem from core principles, you can explain that to a client or an internal team member, then exercising an experience, judgment with a high energy production engine gives you a real competitive advantage. You know, so I felt like one of the key decisions was switching practice areas quickly, not to have anything against construction litigation, but ultimately it just wasn’t for me. And then working in something which

basically suited my personality, entrepreneurial, probably something like a disruptor, people who wants to make a difference and bring some innovation in terms of what you do. And then being agile enough intellectually so that I could gather different ideas, different processes and put them into a solution which I could roll through internally or externally with clients. So that lesson in the formative stages of my career, like the first stage, the first four years.

was probably the biggest turning point of my career because that set me up like a base level of fitness or a base level of technique. So when you look at it from a sports perspective, you know, I felt like I was in a academy from age seven, but I just didn’t know it, you know, until I looked back and realised all the skills that I could bring to bear, you know, later in my career, at say Clifford Chance or Link Laters, or even White and Case, were you know, kind of driven from

You know, that basic foundation. So I’m but now I’m a big believer in basic foundational training to improve judgment. And I have been for a long time, but now we’ve got the onset of AI and the technological disruption or transformation of how we do business. Judgment is where you need to get as many people as possible as quickly as possible.

So much wisdom in that answer and thank you for for for sharing that, Ian. And I think one of the main things I’m taking from that is you’ve taken self-accountability and ownership of your own career right from the outset. Like you said, this wasn’t for me. So many people stay in these environments that perhaps aren’t happy or unsure and not prepared to take that accountability and step out. And I think that’s a really good lesson for you if you’re in that environment.

Do that, be proactive, take ownership of your own career. And as you said multiple times, that the judgment piece, with AI coming in, technology coming in, getting exponentially better day and day, you as that operator and advisor to your clients, your customers, that’s what they’re really going to be buying and wanting that sort of empathy, that judgment, that risk balancing, that strategic mind that you are continuously developing, as you’ve demonstrated yourself. And

I always talk a lot about career building blocks. Every role you’re in is a building block that you’re stacking on top of each other and you’re skill stacking that as you go forth and hence why you’ve been so successful and got to the top of some huge organizations. So let’s maybe go to the current day then, switching tracks a a little bit, ’cause you’re managing partner at one of the world’s best firms. So talk us through a bit about the firm, what does the role involve and yeah, a typical day which I appreciate may not be two days the same. There’s never two days the same because you’re now you’re mixing

you know client demands, talent demands, you know, kind of office you know demands. So the interesting thing is working in an environment which you’re generating revenue as you’re building, you know, it really feels like a a startup, especially you know kind of pre the combination with Ashurst. So now you know kind of we’ve got the combination. It’s now taking what we built from a startup perspective

And integrating it with the the Asherst Legacy Asherst London office. But we’re still in that froze of like, you know, kind of behaving like a startup. So the differences in the business would be relatively flat structure. Everyone has a voice, which means everyone’s got an opinion, which is what you want. When we’re building something, you know, the enthusiasm and different sets of eyes on the same issue can come up with some really interesting solutions. Some of them can be wacky.

And not necessarily a solution to anything other than passing time. But more often than not, when people understand, you know, how we run the business, how we drive into you know, growing the business, they can add value. So we have a formula in the office, which is that the client experience plus the talent experience creates a winning culture that drives sustainable revenue. And everyone is looking always for how they improve each aspect of that formula, you know, the four components.

So on any given day, people will be dropping in saying, we’ve got this client, we want to do this, or we’ve got this issue on talent. We think if we did this, we’d get a better outcome. Because we want to accelerate everyone to a trusted advisor. We want to provide clients with best in class experience, particularly on the entrepreneurial side, the technology side. And because we operating as a startup, we need a very clear startup culture. People need to be prepared to fail.

So that they can learn from that and drive forward quickly. And at the same time, we’ve got to make money. So we’ve got to find a way to be sustainable on a profitability basis. So looking at law as a business, there’s never been a more interesting time to be in the business of law. Europe’s got a huge amount of entrepreneurial talent. It’s got a lot of US dollar investment. So geopolitics play a huge role in relation to a lot of the stuff we do for.

Tech orientated businesses and tech orientated founders, especially. Talent wise, some of the tech native talent coming into the business are driving a lot of change, not necessarily in the outcome, but the journey to an outcome of getting a document out, getting advice out, speed, sources, consistency of advice, you know, kind of you can see it’s common to what I was doing.

you know, kind of in the nineties, but ultimately it’s a much different process to get to you know, that judgment call. And I think that means, you know, the people need to be much more adaptable and coachable now in this environment, because their sources of information are not coming only from the partner or the senior associate. They’re coming from everywhere and you’re piecing it together and saying this I think is the right answer because. And you know, ultimately when I was growing up,

You know, some of the partners used to always say to me, you can say yes or no, every time, and that’s what you need to drive to. And sometimes you can say maybe, but not for long. And I think as a discipline, when you’ve got to say to someone, Yes, you can or no you can’t, or maybe you can if you take this risk on board, that outcome’s consistent in the same way that clients always want value for money and fantastic advice.

So that’s never going to change. I think the concept of being a trusted advisor is always going to be relevant in the business of law, particularly in relation to client service. But how you build that trust, what foundations you use to generate content to perform legal services, that’s really changing really quickly. So, you know, kind of my day now looks very different than it did in, you know, kind of 2020 at White Incase or 2012 at Linklators.

Or basically two thousand and two, you know, at Clifford Chance. It looks looks very, very different. But the outcomes are not so different, but the process to the outcome is really changing and and it’s impacting, you know, everything about the business in terms of how you manage profitability, how you develop a collaborative culture, how you accelerate talent. And ultimately the one constant is the need to provide excellent service to clients on a value for money basis. So everything else

folds under that. So, you know, on a given day, we’re always looking to improve. That’s the constant. We’re always looking to grow our revenue through repeat business clients. And we’re always looking to leave, you know, our talent in a better place than when they started it. More confident, more experienced, more willing to get in front of an issue and provide a solution. So it’s really interesting novel time and you know it’s very different than it was a decade ago for sure. And every day’s still different, which it always was.

But the pace is quickening dramatically, which makes it a good time to be here and to be leading, you know, kind of a team in in such a dynamic market as London. Because, you know, London’s one of the best legal markets in the world, and it’s got some peculiar issues, which you know mean it’s very competitive. But in terms of working backwards from there, there’s a lot of things now which means it’s more dynamic than ever, more capable of disruption than ever.

you know, and talent is more fluid than ever. So, you know, it’s it’s both a good and interesting time to be in the business of law in this great city. Absolutely. And that’s why we’re so keen to have you on, because you’ve seen those shifts because you know nothing changes if nothing changes and the market is moving. And you know, Rich and Suskin’s been cited many times saying the market will show no loyalty and you as the service provider need to move with the market, like you say, to ensure you are fit for purpose and giving them that value.

And extending it. Because yeah, only constant in business, as we all know, is is going to be that level of change. I think one of the things that I really liked about you mentioned from the startup is is the failing fast because you lull a lot of successful startups, they’re always coming up with ideas, always coming up with ideas, and they’re happy to fail and that’s part of the culture and they embrace that and it doesn’t set them back, it propels them forward. So it’s great to hear that that’s part of your ethos as well. And I always say you’re one creative idea or one relationship away from from changing your career. And you know, if you keep with that sort of curiosity and mindset and creativity, good things will

happen. So let’s go back to and I know we’re zigzagging a bit here, but it’s it’s really it’s really going with the flow with this ’cause you played a huge role in obviously building out Burk and Coe’s London office from the ground, not really, and quoted thinking, wanting a horizontal structure where people are empowered in the team to win the development of the business. So when you started, what was the vision for the office and what did you want it to become? Our strategy was called Bebop.

I like it’s not not to do with dancing, but to deliver the best bits of Perkins to London. So we had a Bebop strategy and that meant emerging capital into growth capital around technology oriented businesses. So businesses that monetize data or have an idea that generates that business, and then providing strategic advisory to large tech.

clients in Europe that we currently advised in the US, that’s privacy, antitrust reg, patent litigation, tech transactions work. And we value strategic advice in the same way as transactional advice. We weren’t trying to build a transactional firm. We were building a firm that could advise top tier clients strategically and could also transact in relation to invested capital primarily around technology driven businesses. So we had a very simple business model.

which helped. we could then recruit people to work in relation to that strategy who had good relationships and good foundations to drive that forward, but perhaps had never worked in such a small environment against that kind of strategy. Because there’s strategy of big law is spread. You know, most law firms have a strategy to be a leader in what they do and you say, Well what do you do? And they we do everything.

and we didn’t want to be doing everything to start with, wanted to deliver the best bits of Perkins, and we wanted to be quickly a leader in relation to those elements, which we’ve, you know, really kicked on and done. We brought some amazing clients in on the big tech and we brought some amazing investment and entrepreneurial founders in on the you know, kind of growth, emerging capital, and private equity basis. So

From a standing start, having a very clear strategy helped. Having a plan that we’d kind of done before, you know, growing a business, but in an institutional environment, you know, kind of was different because here we were working in a sandbox before the combination with Ashurst. So it was really we had to make it happen and get stuff done to make it happen. And the firm didn’t have another office this side

of New York. So it wasn’t really international, it was more a US-based law firm which we were translating concepts and principles for into the London market. So that created a lot of fun, just a mild frustration, and then we had to build our own momentum. So you know I think some of the challenges and enjoyment you know of the last two and a half years have been real highlights for me because when I look here now and look all the people working

getting stuff done. And I think actually two years ago this was more like a PowerPoint presentation in a fora communal office building. And now we’re on the fiftieth floor of twenty two Bishopsgate. Super proud, you know, and some of the things we’ve done to, you know, kind of hit the challenges, you know, I I am really, really proud of. Some of the best things I’ve done in my entire career I’ve done in the last two years. I can say that unequivocally.

And I’m gonna ask you about that in in a moment because I think there’s some great lessons there. Just sort of picking up on what you said in terms of we need to make this happen. Again, if it’s meant to be, it’s up to me. That mindset of taking accountability, ownership and really leaning into the strategy. And specific is terrific. It’s like you didn’t wanna apply to everybody. You knew where your lane was, you focused on that and you stayed relentlessly focused on that. And as a result of that, you’ve clearly cut through.

Strategy’s great, but they talk a lot about culture eating that for breakfast. So we’re gonna talk about culture and talent in a moment. I’m sure there’s some lessons here that you did overcome those challenges. Again, for people that might be in similar or slightly different challenges in high stakes law firms at the moment. What lessons or reflections are there, one or two key challenges and and how you are able to solve them you could share with us? One of the key observations I had from the first career in terms of big law, which was institutional law.

was knowledge is power. Yeah. So if you don’t democratize knowledge, then you keep the power in the hands of a few. So the big issue to grow a business quick is democratize knowledge. So we set out with a plan to accelerate talent. And we said we want to build the council to tomorrow. And then we looked at that and thought, well actually if we’re gonna build our own talent, that’s gotta be easier than hiring talent in because then you’re dealing with

other firms you know who’ve trained people, everyone’s trained differently. Culturally they come from a different place. So you’re trying to integrate people in a way and train them in a way which is making life hard. Bit of a headwind. So we created a a legal business analyst program where we recruited graduates straight from university and put them in the business. And we taught them about the business of law and how to do legal professional work. And with a view to accelerating their training

So that by the time you know they qualify, they’re performing at a mid level associate. And by the time they’re a two year associate, our plan is they’re performing as a fifth year. And we’re well on our way with that. And that’s really being you know, a huge positive, not without teething pains, but a huge positive. And now we’re starting to see the benefit of that. Most of that talent base is tech native. Most people in a law firm, you know, are tech neutral or you know, have a tech deficit, particularly given the seniority.

So a lot of our engine room is tech native and they’re all facing the client. So we’re now starting to solve client-facing problems, you know, kind of with a tech native outlook. And having invested in their training, they can look at it from a business perspective or client service perspective and really accelerate in. And that does a couple of things for the culture. One puts a lot of energy in the business because these people are young, they’re resilient, and they’re pushing to build careers. And the second is

you know, it gives people intense pride. You know, as a guy loves football or sports generally, there’s nothing better than seeing someone come to an academy or a talent training program and start hitting it hard or punching above the weight. So that sense of pride and ownership of that program in the business as well as you know, the content of what’s coming out of the team has really given a lot of energy and unity to the office. So I I think compared to a traditional training contract

We didn’t have the luxury to put that in place because you’ve got to build that over a period of three to five years if you’re recruiting second-year undergraduates, putting them in BPP or whatever law school external provider you use. So we skipped that. We brought them straight in. We do law school in the building, so they’re always paid throughout. And we’re finding the best talent and we get some great people onto the program and then they’re accelerating really quickly. So

So great sense of pride, great sense of business purpose, great value for money, and contributes massively to culture. So when we looked at law, we identified that as a problem we had to get around because we didn’t have, you know, the time to build a traditional training program. And we took a step back, thought about it. And I worked with a lady, Natalie, who basically had been with me before we set the business up and she said, Look, these are all the things I need to do this.

Can you make this work? And I’ll step up and do that. So reverse mentoring, well, you have an idea, but it’s basically sanity checked from the person who’s supposedly the beneficiary primary meant that we could solve a problem quickly, design a training program which was different than what anyone else was really offering, which fit the strategy of the firm, fit the purpose of the business, and had a lot of economic and cultural sense. So

Taking a step back, I think that’s one of the best things I’ve done, you know, in my time in law. I think that’s one of the best answers we’ve ever had for a question I now don’t need to ask you about. How do you create a high performance culture right from the start and how do you go about attracting retaining talent? I think that answer completely nailed it. So thank you. I wanted to differentiate a couple of things. So, like how do you retain talent? There’s no straight answer to that.

You kind of and people talk about like charisma and process and opportunity. Look, my starting point is no one comes into work to do a bad job. And the way people learn in traditional talent businesses is through relatively informal, poorly structured delegation pyramids. So if you want to get people to be the best version themselves, then make the training so that that

Is accelerated. And if you do that, then people feel confident, they’re willing to take a risk, they accept failure as part of the journey. If you create a situation where you’re coaching people from someone who’s one or two years above them all the time, then what are they really learning? So going back to that point I said about starting off in leads, I realized I was really lucky because I work with a lot of very talented partners without any intermediation from a senior associate. And at times

That was really hard. Because you know, when you’re a one-year associate going in to see a fifteen year partner and you’ve got to report into them all the things you’re doing, you’ve got to step up. but once you create a system which bridges that gap and you can use technology now to do that, then ultimately the results, you know, can be very accelerated talent development. And when people think they’re on that journey, they own it. Yeah. If people think they’re not

basically being developed as fast as they can, they moan about it. So the positivity of accelerating talent, I think, needs to be reintegrated into law firm talent development. People need to be looking to accelerate it as quick as possible. And a lot of the time the economics of modern law firms have pushed talent promotion out on a much longer journey, in part because they’re fortifying partner economics.

And what I’m trying to do is to accelerate the talent so they they make that decision for us. If they can originate work and they can execute it, they can be a partner earlier. and the economics and the content speak for themselves. So you automatically saying to people, be the best version of yourself, follow this path, build a monetizable ecosystem so that you can start helping origination and executing on that. And ultimately, you know, make it so we can’t leave you out of the partnership.

Don’t make it so you’re dependent on someone’s decision to bring you into the partnership. Make it so it’s obvious. And when you encourage people on that basis, it feels different. They feel supported. And everyone wants to pass the grandma test, right? Which is when you’ve come out of university and you go back for your grandma’s 70th or 80th, she just wants to know, like, are you doing well? Are you a partner yet? She’s not interested in whether you’re a partner at Latham or Clifford Chance or anywhere, but she wants to know.

That all the effort that people put into you early on is being rewarded by a career success. That I always apply that grandma test and say, look, everyone wants to do well in their job because they’ve spent a lot of time getting here. So don’t mess around with antiquated learning when you can accelerate learning through technology. And that was the other point. We didn’t want a churn, because churn costs money. And if you hire someone, you pay a recruitment fee, you pay them load of salary and they get pissed off and they don’t do anything.

That’s toxic for culture, it costs a lot of money, it’s bad for business. So if you can basically bring people in, accelerate their learning so they provide value for money and they’re confident and happy, then you get low churn, high output, and then they grow in the business. That’s good for business. So this is all going back to solve a problem, which is a win for me, a win for the talent, and a win for the business. And if we apply that logic against our formula of talent experience,

Then we’re only starting to see the the fruit start to ripen now, because even if you accelerate time, it still takes like years to get people into a position to perform at a partner level. But when you can see people are on the way, it creates a massive amount of pride. So always work on making people the best version themselves and giving them the power to drive their own career. So democratize knowledge, accelerate learning, and encourage people to be future proof.

Because with technology coming into the business of law at a rapid pace, people need to be able to sell. It’s not that they have an option to sell. There is going to be no career progress for someone who’s amazing at drafting difficult contracts. Because if they can’t find clients or give them difficult contracts to draft, they won’t have a business case to be a senior partner in a law firm. So you’ve got to coach people to sell and you’ve got to make the expectation is

You’ve got to have a network because selection decisions are more and more based on human preferences about how you provide client experience, how responsive you are. You know, and Harvey and Lagora don’t differentiate anything because everyone’s got It’s like an operating system. So now it’s about what you do with it to improve the talent and client experience. So my methodology is really simple. You know, kind of provide the foundations to accelerate talent.

in the right way. So they’re future proof and therefore they ultimately become very confident, loyal, and contributors to a positive business. So, you know, kind of that creates a great culture and low churn and big corporate memory creates a lot more opportunities in front of clients because clients don’t want to see a lot of churn in relationships all the time. But that was the point I just wanted to clarify because I’m quite passionate about that bit.

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So, you know, it’s in absolute incentive to do that. And I was thinking when you were talking through, it’s more on the entrepreneurial side, the the sort of good to great book. more focused on business, but I think can relate to people and talent. What you’re ultimately doing if you’re developing is you’re you’re putting energy inputs into these individual and you’re building momentum and your flywheel, your career flywheel is compounding and over time, like you say it takes time, but it’s

developing and suddenly it starts going and going and going and going. So I think it’s absolutely makes sense to to do that and really sort of bring out the best in your talent. And then they’ll will still stay motivated. They won’t stay stagnated. They won’t feel uninspired or stay in these comfort zones ’cause comfort zone’s great but nothing ever grows there. We know that. And I think that’s obviously why it’s gone on to be so great for you. And you’re right. Sales is the lifeblood I think of everyone’s life and everyone’s business, whether they choose to accept it or not. And I think the red car theory is a great example of that. Go and have a look at that folks if you’re

not familiar with it. so again, let’s talk go back to some of your strategic thinking now. Ashurst and Perkins coming together, big combination. What was the deciding factor in merging firms together and why was it this year the right time? Overall to be at the top table you need to be global. I think that’s you know, kind of fundamental driver. And both for Legacy Ashes and Legacy Perkins.

You know, the combination creates a global footprint. And then when you apply that global stature, then what do you really want to be? You want to be focused on some key sectors to drive the business. Not to the exclusion of other sectors, but focused on key sectors. So, you know, Perkins brought a deep technology expertise. Ash brought a deep fig and energy expertise. So when you look at the three key sectors driving

the combination. It’s it’s a technology, energy, and fig. and that will create you know, kind of a strategy behind which other sectors flow. And then you’ve got a kind of have we got the right culture? can we develop the talent to make the best use of the platform and that will come through, you know, over time. The fact that both firms were comparable size.

made this combination a little bit easier than say some of the other ones where it’s something big taking over something smaller. Because here it’s a merger of equals. So we start off with the position of a merger of equals, a complementary footprint and a clear strategic focus into those three zones. And you know, time will tell, you know, as with all these things, because you want to fast start to create an integrated business.

a clear go-to-market strategy and some repeat business clients. Because going back to that point about the red car, big laws about repeat business clients and driving into those clients to build global relationships, multi partner owned, so they’re stable, and then ultimately high quality, consistent product and pricing. For that you need properly trained people, deep expertise,

You know, and a desire to take what has been two businesses, one with no non US footprint of any significance, and one with no US footprint of any significance, put them together, coach the partners to cross sell the combined firm, to create a global business serving on a repeat business basis, a number of global clients which will drive success for both you know the

The business itself and also the talent within it. So, you know, kind of the starting gun is fired. The combination’s just the start. A bit like when people make partner, they think they’ve summited the mountain. Then they get to that point and they realise, shit, the summit’s like another another another two base camps up. I need to put my backpack on and keep walking. So the combination’s done now, making it work, achieving the strategy.

building a truly global firm with a clear strategic identity, with talent and clients brought in, that’s the proof that needs to be in the pudding. And people are off to that and there’s a fast start and it’s all great. So ultimately, the combination was just the starting gun for the race. Not even the last lap, just the starting gun for the race.

New level, new devil. We say it a lot on the show, but absolutely, you know, new new but exciting, you know, you embrace that. You know, you know there’s going to be opportunities, challenges ahead, and you have that mindset of understanding that from your previous entrepreneurial sort of resilience and grit you would have built up for over the years as well. More of a general market opinion from you now. Why are we seeing so many of these super mergers? Why are they becoming more and more popular?

I you mentioned sort of global for some of the reasons from from what you’re currently doing at Ashurst and Perkins, but obviously we saw ANO Sherman go early. We’ve seen so many other firms that I could list off go down that route. What’s your general observation why this is happening? And do you think firms have to do it to stay relevant, operating at that type of business? I think the market’s fragmenting. Okay. So when you look at the geopolitics of the legal market at the moment, the majority of work in London

for big law is gonna require a significant US presence. Because you know, New York, London are relatively piloting together now on a common journey. But when you look at the geopolitics, the the kind of Chinese, Russian, you know, kind of rest of world impact in the corporate marketplace is relatively low compared to what it’s been over

the last twenty five years. Most of the invested capital is US dollar. Most of the big companies operating in Europe are US. So therefore having a US Europe presence from a European perspective is now increasingly fundamental if you want to be at the big table. You know, you want to be in the top twenty, which will go down to top ten, you know, kind of in the course of the next decade of of firms that matter.

So I think increasingly firms that wanna be in that game need a US partner. And I think the same is true for firms that historically have been in APAC, accessing the US markets, particularly if you’re in Tier One economies in AIPAC, outside China and India, then you’re gonna be leaning towards the US because the US is the economic center against which Western facing democracies

you know, kind of basically pitched their tent and are taking invested capital. So we’re increasingly becoming one market. And therefore to operate in that market, the cornerstone is the US economy. And therefore having access to that US economy is is why these mergers are happening. On the flip side, you know, you’re starting to see a lot of entrepreneurial activity in the law where people are boutiquing. Yeah. know, kind of a lot of litigators are creating their own entrepreneurial businesses.

And they’re focusing on a simple market, a simple strategy, and they’re creating very high quality, very high cost businesses that ultimately are providing a clear focus that’s not within a transactional firm. Though we do litigation, we sue anyone, this is what we do. So you’re starting to see boutiquing s come through. And I think increasingly you might see more boutiquing.

with the advent of clear workflow architecture leading to AI-driven client solutions. So whilst you’ve got kind of tech native firms like AI, native firms, you’ll see the big firms becoming AI adoptive to try and compete with each other, which will change the business shape of big law, but you’ll then see tech native firms coming in

To really race with the genetic solutions to replace manual labor production. So the market’s going to be subdividing as well because the native AI firms will take over a segment of the market. Big law will focus on high-value bet you farm work. So that market’s likely to grow, but the competitors will shrink. Which is driving firms that wanna be in that zone to merge because.

If you’re not merged, you’d have a big US presence, you’re at a competitive disadvantage if you want to be a transactional firm. And then firms will then focus on investment in adoptive AI strategies to improve consistent quality, reduce cost, particularly if that becomes a competitive element to the market. Inevitably it will. And then you’ll see other firms come through, which will be practice-led, like litigation. You might also see in private equity.

Where you’ve got a commoditized product, which you can speed up the delivery, reduce the cost if you’re in a boutique. So the market’s going to get very, very dynamic. And the valuable commodity is the same as it always was. It’s judgment and relationships. But the question is do you need to be in an institutional firm to run your practice? And the litigators increasingly worked out that they didn’t, which is why they boutiqued. And obviously you’ve had some amazing success stories.

Quinny Manuel started as a boutique. But there’s lots of other boutiques in the London market and the New York market that are coming through. You’ve got people who think actually technology can accelerate me building a business. So you’ve got kind of native AI firms and firms positioning to that, you know, AI dependent product development you know kind of business model. And then you’ve got the big, big law firms who are looking like, well, what do we do?

But intuitively, if they’ve got high value relationships with repeat business clients, they’ve got a moat already, which is the judgment of a lot of partners embedded in a lot of clients. So that’s why I think the market is dynamic. There’s a lot of disruption from a lot of different directions. So it’s no longer like the market it was ten years ago, where it’s like US firms versus UK firms. Because the market is now more closer to one. So you want to be

global firm in that market with a heavy US presence because that’s where the money comes from. Likewise, invested capital in law is coming through. So if you’ve got a business plan and an idea, you can probably get third party investment to drive that business plan and make it more like a tech company. Yeah. and ultimately people will boutique him. Because don’t forget, for all the Harveys and Lagoras, the cost of a licensed product from those guys

Is still a fraction of the revenue that people make from clients. And the last impact in the market is the clients themselves are investing in technology to insource the work. So you’ve got this moving target where the clients are also taking the products and developing you know, agentic solutions. So they only outsource the most valuable work and they can insource and produce consistent, high quality work internally with

you know, kind of innovative practices and technology. So the target’s moving, the market’s moving, influenced by geopolitics, and ultimately people’s ambitions to be in the top tier at the top table, which is why you’re starting to see the pace pick up as everyone starts looking at things going, if I don’t move now, what will happen? And it’s become an existential threat to a lot of law firms that if they’re not in the zone of the top table

they’ll never get there. and therefore it’s now or never. And then you’ve got individual partners looking at their practice, going like, do I need to be in a big firm to do my practice? Can I make my clients happier? If I just focus on them and I can build a infrastructure and use technology to deliver a higher quality, consistent product at a lower price, they win, I win because I get a higher margin, I get an investment into my business. And now you’ve got private capital in the mix. And the disciplines of private capital

will also change big law forever. So it used to be it’s a trillion dollar cottage industry. I think in ten years’ time we may look at it and say parts of it are still a cottage industry, other parts that have been financially disciplined through external capital and entrepreneurial behaviour. And you know, ten years ago being entrepreneurial was doing a lateral move to a US firm to build a business. That’s not really looking that entrepreneurial now.

You know, when you look at some of the stories that are coming through entrepreneurial, it’s like setting a law firm up or setting a business up or splitting your business in a MSO to take external capital so you can drive investment in technology. Because there’s an arms race everywhere now. An arms race for clients, an arms race for third party capital, an arms race for adoptive AI if you’re an institutional business, and an arms race to build a native AI business if you’re going after that segment of the market. So

Never been a better time to be in the flow. And it’s never ever been so dynamic, particularly in London, which is in any measure a top five legal market in the world. And maybe the other four markets, if it’s five, are in the US, which goes back to that question like why do people want to be in the US? Because four out of the top five markets are in the US. Yeah. London’s a mega market, but New York is basically Texas’s.

California is kind of the Midwest is with Chicago. So you look at the success of firms that have come from left of center, whether it’s LA or Chicago, you think actually maybe if I make a bold move, the next big mover can be me. So you you’re getting confidence, institutional push, technology giving you the appetite to disrupt, third party capital bring financial discipline.

To drive into the business. And then people work out do I need to be in a big firm? And if I do, I stay. And if I don’t, I boutique. And then I avoid native AI at all costs because if I haven’t got the technology and I’m not set up that way, I’ll never win in that race. So you can see all these dynamics and the SWOT analysis is forever moving. But ultimately, there’s always a North Star in this, Rob, which is clients always want.

Exceptional service and value for money. Yeah. And whatever you do in this business, you’ve got to hit that. Talent always wants great careers. Whatever you do, you’ve got to hit that. And to build a team, you need a strong culture. And to build a business, you need sustainable profitability, which is why I think the formula is the same. The journey’s just gonna look a lot different now because of all the dynamic components in the market, which is why you’re seeing so much friends and activity.

Yeah, we we really are. And I want to to go back to to culture and then ask her a a couple of questions around client expectations and tech. But just reflecting on what you said there, firstly I always say boutique is beautiful. You know, you can be nimble, you can you know, you can react, you can remove ’cause clients, like you say, you think of the client. Clients want fusion rather than confusion. So if you can get your systems and your processes and your model correct, as a boutique you can be really powerful and punch above your weight and indeed profitable, which indeed law firms

are looking for. And and on the big the big law supermorger space, you it’s step up or get out, really. That’s kind of where we’re we’re getting to. That’s the table stakes now. Because if you don’t risk anything, you ultimately risk everything. The firms that are placing their bets, like yourselves, like many others, you know, you see with the direction of travel and so you’re taking that on. And yeah, just going back to our listeners that have been with us over the years, go back and listen to John Quinn. We’ve had him on the show and heard about how he set up Quinn, their journey, their lessons that learning that’s a a real inspiring one as well. Okay, quite amazing story.

Yeah, incredible stories. And great podcast as well. I love John’s podcast, Lord Disrupted, so go check out his show. I want to talk about bringing it all together then, because when law firms decide to step up, combine everything, this blend of people, cultures, histories histories, ways of working, how do you then create a shared culture without losing the qualities which made each of the organizations successful in the first place? That’s a tough question. I mean, ultimately

You’re talking about blending families of people, you know, and and but I I don’t use that word lightly, families, because you’re talking about people who are deeply emotionally invested in the way they do things as the best way to do things. So you know, you you you you’ve gotta kind of look at that and say, what’s the best of all worlds? And I think that you know, one of the things that law’s done badly in my time in law is

it’s used other businesses as guides to what it could do differently. in the fact it hasn’t. You know, like most law firms will say, well if you know ten years ago if Freshfields do this, Link letters will do that. And now it’s like if Latham’s do this, well maybe we should do that. Or if Kirkland do this, maybe we should do that. So the reality is their guiding, you know, kind of behavioral discipline is

What is my direct business competitor doing? Whereas actually if I look outside of my industry, what is happening in a wider world that could really help my industry? And I think personally, like, you know, kind of people need to look at that more and more because simulators for training are everywhere but law. And if you want to be an F one driver, you’re gonna be on a sim. If you wanna basically play golf, you’ll practice in a sim.

I do that very badly just to interject, by the way. But it’s good fun, right? Because you’re you’re in a sim you’re you’re willing to fail because you get twenty-five goes at getting it right. Because if you’re basically out in real life and you fail, then you’re gonna have a big crash or you’re gonna lose a few balls. So the reality is like taking some ideas from the wider business world and bringing them in. And if you look at law, like most managing partners have never been a CEO of another business.

most CFOs have never really been the CFO of a non-legal business. And then most of the you know talent development, business development is legal-centric. So you’re starting to see some of the accountancy businesses and consulting businesses really transform. So I think bringing ideas in from outside the industry to benefit the industry is what third-party capital is going to bring. Because that’s what third-party capital does, that’s what private equity does. So I think.

Those changes that are going to come through in the next decade are going to make life very interesting for people who are open minded and agile. So going back to this bringing the cultures together, it’s not so much blending the cultures that’s the key thing. That’s one step. The other thing is looking forward and saying, look, in five years’ time, if we want to be this kind of business with these kind of clients, what do we need to do differently from within each of our organizations to get to the outcome?

And the behaviors talent development, the behaviors, business development, the behaviors democratizing knowledge need to be done to generate that outcome. Because when you put two businesses together, you don’t want the sum of the parts to be less than the whole. You know, you want the whole to be more than the sum of the parts. So you have to have this strategy that says, we want to be this together, and therefore to get to that zone, we have to come together and we have to behave in the right way. So it’s not just about

Blending the cultures to get the best of both worlds, but it’s blending the cultures to create a collaborative environment so you can set an ambitious, adventurous strategy and execute it. And I think that ultimately there’s no point doing a combination unless you’ve got big ambition because it’s a start, it’s not the end. You know, it’s basically getting you into that, as you say, the table stakes. But once you’re at the table, you want to be eating the steak.

so you therefore you need to be growing in line with that strategy and building a culture that drives you through to the end strategy. And that’s where the fun’s gonna be, and that’s why the combination itself is really at the start. Yeah, and I’m excited to see it, and I say it time and time again, our listeners will be sick of me saying it, collaboration is domination. I think if you really embrace that, you absolutely will come together. And the the dynamics of this we is greater than me, bringing these two together as a real powerhouse and getting that cohesion you’re gonna just gonna continue to drive.

Forwards. Okay, I promised I want talk about client expectations because I think you’d have a real view, having lived the experience on this, ’cause you’ve previously shared happy clients, happy people, big wins. So how should law firms be responding to the increase in client demands and expectations? But as a follow up to that, what are clients now demanding in international firms that perhaps they weren’t ten, twenty years ago in light of the revolutions that we’re going through? I think, you know, increasingly they’re demanding

the same thing, but law firms are having to do different things to deliver it, which is the best judgment at the most cost effective price. And they want access to that judgment. So one of the things that’s going to happen if you look at the big challenge within a law firm is like how do you make sure all your team use their time to the highest and best use? Because at the end of the day, you know, there’s only 24 hours in a day and seven in a week.

So even though most lawyers are workaholics, you know, the quality time is twelve hours a day. So therefore, if you’re a partner, how many of those hours are spent dealing with the client on the things that matter? Because as a proxy for success, the more time a partner is with a client dealing with things that matter to the client, the stronger the relationship. And how much time do people spend doing the wrong things?

So again, you know, if you look at it in a kind of sporting analogy, if you play a position and you want to score goals, there is no point basically being in your own penalty box when it needs to be in the other one to score the goal. So getting people to their highest and best position, and I’m still moaning about the Argentina game, so you can see why I’m picking up. I’m I’m I’m waiting. I’ve I’ve been biting my tongue. Yeah, I let’s not talk about too cool. The highest and best use is the dynamic that businesses need to drive to.

So clients will now want more time on the judgment. They probably will pay less for repeat mundane tasks. So law firms have to work out in terms of this valuable inefficiency model that that’s been created by accident, where the human pyramid just basically keeps generating revenue that clients get billed for, they probably see agentic solutions to removing a lot of that cost for repeat mundane tasks.

And if they don’t devise agentic solutions, native AI firms will. So the challenge is to get to the highest and best use of the talent you have in your business, so you’re always relevant to your client. And I think that’s why it’s always been the case and it will always be the case. But law firms now have to get a lot more discipline, a lot more focused on that because their clients are. You know, for the first time in a long time, if you’re the GC of a mid-market business.

You were limited by maybe having two, three, ten people in your legal team. But now if you build your own agency solution to what you need, the limiter is the quality of that solution, not the head count you’ve got. So therefore, you can focus more time on what you need to do. And therefore, when you do that, it’s always the big questions, the bet you farm issue. And therefore you want access to the partners. So partners are going to find themselves probably

transitioning to be more in front of clients, more relevant to clients, probably have time to do more of that stuff if they can get the human pyramid to identify repeat mundane tasks. And that formula is what all these firms are looking for. And whoever gets there will win. And the firms that don’t get there, they will lose rapid and they won’t see it coming. It’ll be it’s fine, it’s fine, it’s definitely fine. We’re having a good year.

And then they’ll all have a Kodak moment. Yeah. You know, where they’ll think actually no one’s buying film anymore. No one takes pictures with cameras. how did we not see this? The pictures are still being taken. But they’re not on a digital camera, they’re on a phone. So the reality is this is going to happen in the industry for sure in the next five years to ten years. Could happen earlier. It depends on whether firms can grip the identification and and clarify workflow.

within their business to facilitate it. So clients are going to change the market, law firms are going to change the market. And the reality is the majority of revenue is paid to law firms by clients. So technology licensing is a fraction of that. And law firms need to focus more on client development, talent development to build that judgment and that client service, then perhaps they need to focus on licensing in

very useful tech products but ultimately that ones that you know kind of still require judgment to sell and require energy for law firms to sell. So I think focusing on the old school issues is still going to be the best strategy at the same time as removing repeat mundane tasks. So losing that valuable inefficiency within the business model. So it’s gonna be great time. Yeah, and I I love your optimization. Great time to be in business.

Yeah, exactly. And that’s the way to to look at it. And and just picking on a few things there, we’ve and I think this is why we’re so passionate about having these conversations and staying curious and educating people because the market is changing and bringing in leaders like yourself that are right in the thick of it.

Right now, because you can’t afford to stay standstill. You need to be curious, you need to be alive to the market, you need to be listening to your clients. And would highly recommend folks check out Jack Newton’s client-centered law firm book, founder and CEO of Clio. We’ve had him on the show multiple times. Every time he comes on, it’s a masterclass, not much like today. And I also want to remind people of to go back and listen to Piers Linney, former Dragon’s Den investor and lawyer and friend of mine who’s been on the show. And he talks and mirrors what you’re talking about there of

The value pyramid. It doesn’t matter if you’re a doctor, a lawyer, an accountant, an insurance, tech is coming in and it’s coming in at an exponential rate and at its worseability as of today. So you as a service provider need to find a way to be ahead of that, be that through the judgment and things that you said. Otherwise tech will eat your lunch, as they say. So I think it’s really important that we articulate that point in a in a structured way rather than a scaremongering point, because I think you’re absolutely talking to that as well, Ian. I wanna talk about now just, you know, I

Conscious of of time, but I just want a couple of quick fire questions because I’ve got so many lessons I want to kind of you know, a mentor said to me, I want to empty my head before I’m dead. And I thought it was such lovely mindset to have in terms of wanting to give back. So I know we’re stretching time here, but I just want to get a couple of your reflections. So think of a professional setback that became probably one of the most valuable experiences in your career. And what did you learn? Oof, there’s been a few.

You know, I I I think with any setback it’s how you bounce back. Yeah. You know, and and and setbacks are a good phrase because it just takes you back a step and you know, if you come back and move forward beyond that, you know, it’s good. But like you know, there’s been so many and I kinda like to learn from every situation, whether it’s losing clients, losing talent, you know

I once crashed my girlfriend’s car at the time, whose dad was a big client of Evershed’s and wrote it off. And I the valuable lesson there was to make sure I was insured. Because I was on my I was on my way to a work meeting claiming petrol allowance and I crashed the car and it was only insured for domestic use. And the insurer said you’re on business use, and I was like, no, that means it’s uninsured. So lesson one is don’t write off.

Your girlfriend’s car if her dad’s a big client of the firm on an uninsured basis. So I started checking a little, I wasn’t so cavalier with insurance details from that stage. I think, you know, law is based on relationships and people remember what you do for them. So I’ve been lucky to really work with a lot of talented people and and help them in building really successful careers for themselves. And people always talk about that.

We we when I get together with people they rarely talk about the deal, like the complexity of the deal, the bill. They talk about where I am now and why I’m there. And I think law firm histor law firm success historically has been built on pay it forward, pay it back. Yeah. And ultimately it’s a talent business. And if you’re not interested in talent, you know, you’re missing so much of the fun.

So if you can pay it forward by helping people on their journey, they’ll always look back fondly on that experience. And I think for me, as a talent business, I’ve loved paying it forward and you know, kind of and I continue to do that, and that’s the the best you know part of the job. So always learn from your mistakes, some stupid, some avoidable, and some you know, kind of intentional as in bad decisions.

But if you understand why you went wrong and avoid it in the future, then you’re creating a pattern of success. Because to repeat mistakes is a pattern of failure. So I think all these setbacks are just that. They’re setbacks. And historically for me, looking back, the highs have never been really that high as I thought they were at the time when the lows were never that low. So it’s very hard to do anything catastrophic in a good culture.

And therefore, even when you think something’s catastrophic, it never really is. And when you think something’s exceptional, it never really is. So keep a perspective on everything. And remember, you know, if you can pay it forward and help people, then ultimately, emotionally, that is far more important. Those moments are more important than how much comp you get paid, you know, kinda how many deals you did in a year. ‘Cause like no one’s ever mentioned to me my merger market stats when I catch up with them. They always mention

When we did this, we had this much fun, or when we did that, do remember this event? So it’s a very personal human business and if you appreciate that, you see the full picture. And like a lot of what we talk about, a lot of what’s reported is like the PEP, the hires, their clients. And it’s like, come on, you know, at the end of the day, everything’s rented other than the people. And if you don’t appreciate the people, like how much are you missing?

So I I think the setback and the culture go together and pay it forward is a principle that I always try and live by, you know, ’cause ultimately it’s great. It’s a great feeling, makes me want to get in the office every day. And there’s only so many SPAs you can draft in a lifetime. but there’s always a new experience helping someone build a successful career. Yeah, and I I love the intrinsic value I can see that you you get from that. And yeah, once you reach

Teach, right? It’s it’s that simple and these mistakes absolutely make you I talk about this a lot, you know, we’re no longer in this B to B, B to C world. We’re in this H to H, that human to human connection. And when you’re catching up with these clients or these people, you’ve built that human connection with them. And the work speaks for itself. It’s actually sort of I always say rapport wins the war. You’ve built up that capital with them, the relationship capital, and all of that good stuff comes your comes your way. So yeah, really good lessons for that. Okay, just Well and I and I think one of the points on that is you know

That point about when you reach your teach, I think that’s right at an early stage of a partner career. And then as you get a bit older, you then start realizing you start getting taught. Yes. Because if you engage with talent at all levels of the business and all jobs, then people start bringing new ways to do things. And then it gets quite interesting because, you know, being reverse mentored now, I probably get reverse mentored more by my LBAs than I mentor them.

You know, they’re telling me like lots of different things on how they do stuff, how get stuff done. And well, that’s really interesting. But can you really do that that quickly, or can you really do that if we give you this tool? So I think the interesting part for me now is being taught different processes to achieve the same outcome. And for me, trying to get the client outcomes consistent, but letting people with much more tech nativity drive the creation of these processes so long as the outcomes are consistent to what I need to apply my judgment.

And then democratizing the knowledge to make that happen quicker makes it a different job. It’s almost like now I’m in a different job than I was at YM Case. And it’s and that to me is that’s why I think it’s like a second career. you know, because it just feels like a different job. Yeah, and I can just get the energy from it as well. And yeah, we talk a lot about three sixty board of men your your your three sixty board of mentors, you know, people above you, ahead of you, beneath you, because that next generation particularly has so much creativity and you know, once you think you know everything

We know nothing. So I think always being open to learning is is is so true. Agreed. Okay, so next generation coming through. You’ve been relentlessly focused on giving back, helping, developing. It’s been a real theme and and classic great leadership that you’ve shown through this conversation. So I’m sure there’s gonna be a lot of aspiring solicitors listening to this. So if they’re wanting to train, qualify, or break into an international firm like Ashki Ash Hurst Perkins, what do they need to do? What are three top tips for them?

I think firstly get agile. Be willing to learn. Understand that you’re continuously learning. You know, so that coachability factor once you’re in the building is what’s going to differentiate you. Hard work, less so, because as agentic solutions come forward, repeat mundane tasks, which differentiates people as a safe pair of hands, they’ll be identified. So be coachable and accelerate your learning.

I think the second is own the application process. So position yourself so that you are relevant, you understand the business you’re applying to and why you’re applying to it. Increasingly the quality of applications is very, very high. The differentiator is, you know, kind of do you understand why you’re applying to Ash as Perkins as opposed to you know, a kind of magic circle firm or a different US firm.

And having that kind of interest in our core sectors is a is a clear differentiator. And then the third point is you know, one that we have to do as a business. And I think that don’t be put off by this, but our viewpoint is, you know, talent is everywhere, opportunity is not. So the fact that you may not see someone like you in this building doesn’t mean there isn’t someone like you in this building. So as my grandma said, never assume. Yeah. Put yourself forward

make a case and never assume that this isn’t a place for you because you don’t know anyone like you that works in this building. Because most importantly, having a clear meritocracy is very valuable to a business that wants to grow. So candidates get themselves coachable, they prepare well and they always apply to what they think is the right organization, even if it doesn’t necessarily have people on the inside that they can see

like them, ultimately almost all organizations want to operate a meritocracy and therefore applicants from a wide and varied group of people will drive that forward. So I think never assume, be coachable and prepare. Prepare, prepare, prepare. Absolutely. And that’s why we try to have such a diverse range of voices on the show. And instantly that brought my mind back to Trevor Sterling who’s been on the show, who was the he talks a lot about if you can’t see the ladder, be the ladder.

You know, and climb up and send it back down. And he was the first black partner of any top one hundred law firm in the UK, and he’s really built the ladder and has his own awards now, and I’d highly recommend folks go and check him out. okay, final piece of advice before we let you go, Ian, and it’s a sentence I’d like you to complete actually. So if you had to complete it, how would you finish this? The future of the legal profession will not be shaped by the firms which are the biggest, but by those who disrupt

The trillion dollar cottage industry the most. I like it. I like it. Hey, Ian, this has been marvelous. Even better than I expected. And I was really looking forward to today’s discussion. So if our listeners would like to know more about yourself or indeed Ash As Perkins, where can they find out more? Feel free to share any websites or any social media handles where people can go to find more information. we’ll make sure we share them with this episode for you too. I think just LinkedIn for me personally, all about the journey.

And then you know, you send to the firm’s website and LinkedIn profile for everything to do with applications and background. Fantastic. It’s been an absolute pleasure having you on the show today. highly, highly insightful, thoroughly enjoyable conversation. So I’d just like to say from all of us here on the League of Speaking podcast, sponsored by Clio, wishing you lots of continued success in the second wind, shall we say, of of the career journey for yourself and everyone involved at Ash Hurst Perkins. But from now, from all of us on the show, over and out.

Thank you for listening to this week’s episode. If you like the content here, why not check out our world leading content and collaboration hub, the Legally Speaking Club, over on Discord. Go to our website, www.legallyspeakingpodcast.com. There’s a link to join our community there. Over and out.