On today’s Legally Speaking Podcast, I’m delighted to be joined by Kate Gaskell. Kate is the CEO of Flex Legal. She was previously an Associate at Allen & Overy, and has more than 20 years of experience in the legal profession. Kate was the Director of Transformation at LexisNexis UK and is now an Advisory Board Member for qLegal.

So why should you be listening in? 

You can hear Rob and Kate discussing:

– Flex Legal as an Alternative Legal Services Provider.

– How AI is Considered a Challenging and Creative Area.

– Flex Launching a Qualifying Work Experience Training Scheme for Aspiring Solicitors.

– The Scheme Includes a Dedicated Social Mobility Initiative.

– The Advice Given For Individuals From Non-Traditional Legal Backgrounds.

Connect with Kate Gaskell here –https://www.linkedin.com/in/kategaskell1111

Transcript

Find the people who are going to provide the scaffolding around you, who get you. What keeps me awake at night is thinking through on the candidate side of things how we equip everybody who works through Flex for this brave new world. So we’ve started to experiment with training our interim lawyers and paralegals and our trainee group in what responsible use looks like and some of the various different specific tools that are out there in the market. What has helped me a lot along the way is having people who are at the same stage as you, who are in your corner and who can validate and share with you the highs and the challenges. Having a peer group not necessarily in your workplace but at the same stage as you to me is one of the most valuable things. 

On today’s Legally Speaking podcast, I’m delighted to be joined by Kate Gaskell. Kate is the CEO of Flex Legal. She was previously an associate at Allen & Overy and has more than 20 years of experience in the legal profession. Kate was director of transformation at LexisNexisUK and now is an advisory board member for Q Legal. So a very big warm welcome to the show, Kate. Thank you so much, Robin. Thank you for having me. it’s an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. And a little birdie told me off.

Today is actually your birthday. So a very happy birthday. Thank you. 28 again. Absolutely. Absolutely. And we do have a couple of icebreaker questions here on the Leagues We Can Podcast to get started. Firstly, what is your favorite beverage and what is your preferred choice of footwear on a typical workday? ⁓ gosh. Okay. My preferred choice of beverage is probably a ginger beer.

⁓ But I’ve never thought about it. So that’s you put me on the spot there. But yeah, I love a cold ginger beer with a slice of lime And my preferred footwear always trainers always trainers comfort over style Absolutely. We’ve had all sorts of answers and lots of people are going for like some people even said slippers Working from home for sure. Yeah, let’s throw in the office

Well, yeah, absolutely. let’s, with that in mind, let’s get into some of the serious stuff. So would you start by telling our listeners a bit about your background and career journey? Yeah, of course. So as you mentioned, I started off my career in private practice. I was a lawyer trained at Allen & Overy in London. And then after qualification, I went across to Sydney in Australia for a few years and worked at Freehills over there in a project finance team.

and then came back to London and was in Norton Rose’s mining and infrastructure team. And then I left private practice around about 2010 or 11 and joined LexisNexis for a long time. I was brought in to help build out one of their online practical guidance tools, Lexis PSL, which some of your listeners I’m sure are very familiar with. But back then it was a very new product. So there were lots of us hired at once to come in and write content for that.

And then a few years ago, I joined Flex Legal and I’m now Flex’s CEO. You sure are. I’m doing a tremendous job and it has to be said. And I’d encourage our listeners also to go and check out Mary, Mary Bonsall’s episode on the Leaguer Speaking podcast from a couple of seasons back. That’s super inspiring story and journey, all about the Flex Legal, how it started and where it’s going. Okay. Pursuing a career in the law. Was it something you always wanted to do or where did that inspiration come from?

Yeah, do you know what? It was a decision I made really, really early on. So I was probably about 11 or 12 when I decided I wanted to be a lawyer. Not because I knew any lawyers, not because I really understood what the law was, but because I’ve watched an awful lot of LA law and Perry Mason and those sorts of TV shows.

Yeah, there was nobody in my family or in my sort of immediate ⁓ circle of ⁓ adults who was in the law. ⁓ But I really latched on to this idea of, I guess it was sort of motivated by a sense of justice and problem solving and lots of courtroom drama that looked quite fun. And so.

Yeah, it was an early decision. And then I was lucky actually that my school that I went to, which was a very straightforward, normal state school, offered GCSE law, which was quite unusual at the time. So I got the chance to study law around about that age. And I just loved it. I loved the variety of it. I loved the, ⁓ like I say, the problem solving element of it.

loved trying to sort of make sense of complicated issues and simplify them. So then I went on to do A-level law and then from there off to university to study law at uni. So yeah, I didn’t really deviate. My only other career aspiration at that age was ⁓ either writing books, which I still haven’t given up on, or

training horses, which was never going to happen. I don’t know where that came from. So ended up in law. we go. Well, my mum has a very keen interest in horses. Sticking with education then and studying, know, could you tell us about studying law at one of the best universities in the world? Yeah, sure. So yeah, Oxford was a culture shock for me. I was actually the first in my immediate family to go to university at all.

let alone an institution like Oxford. So I was very underprepared for what that was going to be like. As I said, I’ve come from a state school, a good state school, but a state school where not many, no people before me, I think there’d been one who’d gone before me to Oxford a few years before me. And so I had no real idea what to expect. And I think the culture shock was primarily

how self-directed you had to be. So at school, the structure of the week and the day was very fixed and that suited my brain and my way of learning very well. Whereas at Oxford, it was much more freeform and that you didn’t get an awful lot of contact time. So you had to be very self-motivated, self-directed. And of course, I was probably quite naive about the kind of demographic at Oxford. So there were lots of people from

private educated backgrounds and I didn’t, I hadn’t really come across anybody who was privately educated before that. So there was a definitely a huge sense of what I would now understand to be called imposter syndrome. I don’t think we had that language back then. I don’t remember people talking about that. But definitely a sort of sense of being slightly fished out of water and not really, not really.

believing that I, I guess it was sort of feeling like there’d been a terrible mistake in any minute now I was going to get tapped on the shoulder and told no sorry this isn’t for you but I was really really fortunate that I met my now closest friends who had come sort of on similar pathways to me and the tutors that I had at uni who were teaching in my college were brilliant and I when I look at the demographic within my

tutor groups for law. There were quite a lot of us from state school, which was unusual for Oxford. yeah, I think I sometimes wish I could go back now with the kind of wisdom and experience that I have today. Because anyone who goes to university at 18 really knows, has no life experience at all. So you’re winging it at the best of times. And yeah, I think with the benefit of a bit of hindsight and experience now, I would

Yeah, maybe there’d be bits of it that I would find more comfortable with, you know what I mean? Absolutely. And I think I agree on the imposter syndrome. think that’s definitely over the last few years, I’ve seen the rise of that. And I don’t remember too much of that back when I was at sort of university. And I think it’s great that you went on and you know, you’ve achieved that and you speak very openly as well about coming from a single parent household, free school meals, being the first in your family, as you mentioned, to

attend university, how did your background shape how you then experienced the legal sector? It’s a really good question. And again, I think, I think at each of those sort of milestone moments in my journey, whether it was going to university or starting my training contract, I had the misplaced belief that getting to that milestone would

be the silver bullet that makes you feel like you belong there and that you deserve to be there. So as I said, definitely got to university and thought, God, no, actually I still, feel like a fish out of water. I’m not sure this is, this is my place. And then the same thing happened when I, when I got my training contracts and started my training contract. And I think that that those milestones are really just step one of like, of the next phase. Like it’s, is a big achievement to get to that point.

But then the work doesn’t end. You have to continue to back yourself and believe in yourself and seek the people. think that’s what I did at university very instinctively, is find the people who are going to provide the scaffolding around you, who get you, who can be your support network as you navigate through the next bits of that journey. I found

⁓ starting my training contract, similarly overwhelming. didn’t know what to wear. didn’t know. I didn’t know. ⁓ what I remember we had sort of training on networking early on, and I didn’t know what networking was. didn’t, no one had ever taught me that. didn’t understand what a network was. There were definitely bits of language that I wasn’t familiar with. ⁓ and as I said, I didn’t, I didn’t know any lawyers. So I was, ⁓

It was a big learning curve. It was definitely a big learning curve. And I think that’s one of the things I feel more positive about now when I look at the profession is that particularly in relation to social mobility, because as you say, I came from a low socioeconomic background. There was no discussion about that when I was at that stage in my career. I would never, ever, ever have admitted.

On day one of my training contracts that I was on free school meals. just, the idea that that would be publicly known was absolutely horrifying. So that gives me a bit of optimism that we’re kind of getting a little bit better in that sense. But yeah, it was always, and even when I qualified, that was the next milestone, right? Well, once I’m qualified, it’s going to mean I feel comfortable and I’ve got this and there’s no more imposter syndrome. you know, it’s just not how it works. No,

This is why we want to give the platform to people like yourselves with these inspiring stories, because you have been very successful in what you’ve gone on to achieve. And I love your mindset there when you were talking about backing yourself. And I remember really early days of starting my own legal recruiting business. wrote BTA, which is believed to achieve.

you know, always believe that achieve and just think about it. And I love that you talked all about the people around you. It’s again, a lot of the strands connected to the shows, we talk a lot of the importance of mentors and having a good network around you that can lift you up and you’re sort of 360 board of directors. If you like people ahead of you, same level of view behind you.

And you’ve done really good job of that. And as a result of that, you’ve mentioned, you’ve worked at some of the world’s best firms, Alan and Overie, now of course, A &O Sherman, senior associate at Herbert Smith Freehills, as you mentioned, and then obviously over to Norton Rose, incredible law firms, incredible academic success as well. But what was your experience like working at those particular law firms? Yeah, I feel very lucky. And it’s nice actually sometimes just to pause and think about that sort of thing, because you don’t often…

do that. So yeah, I’ve been very, very lucky. My experience at all of those firms was very positive. ⁓ I think I really knew at the time that I was in a fortunate position and that the quality of training and the quality of work was really, high in those places. And as I said, think two things really, I think I took responsibility

consciously or not, probably not consciously at the time, to get that peer network of support around me and to make sure that I had the right ⁓ people in my corner, the people who you could sort of share the highs and lows with, because I think that’s really important. But then I also ⁓ was lucky to have ⁓ not necessarily formal mentors or sponsors, but definitely people who I could see a few steps ahead of me or quite a lot of steps ahead of me who

who I trusted and who I could go to for advice or not even consciously go to for advice, but just see a little bit of myself in. So I think that, as you said, is just really invaluable. It helps a lot. And I was also, this is partly my nature, but I was very ⁓ keen to take advantage of all the different opportunities that there were in those firms because there’s obviously the fee earning.

And that’s a huge part of the job. But there were other opportunities that I would always put my hand up for, whether it was pro bono work or joining committees or whatever it was. And I think that that also builds your confidence because if you put your hand up for things to get involved in things where you maybe do feel a bit more comfortable, it has a trickle across effect, think, to the bits where maybe you don’t immediately feel more comfortable. Yeah. And you’re continuously growing your network and wisdom as well. You’re connecting with people.

extra benefits from, you know, that mindset and again, why you’ve been so successful. Want to ask now a question linked to partnership route versus alternative routes, because you opted against the partnership route in the hopes of having more flexibility. So what questions did you ask yourself to know that flexibility mattered more than the traditional partner route? ⁓ yeah, good question. I think, again, this was obviously when I was at that stage of my

career, it was quite a long time ago now, was probably coming up to 15 years ago. And I think my sense is that at that stage, the profession felt quite binary. So it was often, this is my sense, and it might not be right, but I think at the time I felt, well, it’s partnership or nothing, or something else, but I’m not sure what that is. And

And how did I know that flexibility was important to me? I think because I’ve always been a very curious person and I’ve always been, I like to try new things and do new things. And some of that is inside of work and inside my professional ⁓ day to day. And some of it is outside. And I felt as I got more senior, there was less and less space for the outside of work curiosity. And I just knew again, ⁓

I don’t think I necessarily knew it consciously. think I’ve always been quite just full of the breadcrumbs. That’s been my kind of career strategy. I’ve not really I’m not really one to plan, but but I could I could feel at the time that having the ability to carry on exploring other interests and passions and stuff was important. so I actually started looking. But I also was really passionate about the legal industry and the legal sector. And I knew I wanted to stay in that. ⁓ And I knew I wanted

all of the experience that I had had up to that point to be invested in something else that managed to meet those other aspirations. And so I started looking at professional support roles still inside law firms, so knowledge lawyer roles. And then this opportunity came up that I mentioned, which sounded just so unique and interesting. And unlike anything else that was a of a roundabout at the time, it sounded really creative, which appealed to me.

taking all of my knowledge from having been a finance lawyer for however many years and then building something brand new from scratch in an organization with lots and lots of other lawyers, which I thought sounded just really fun. So I thought I’d give that a go and see what happened. And yeah, it was a great decision. Yeah. And you seem to have made many great decisions throughout your career. That’s for sure. And talking about hierarchy in law then, there’s an unspoken hierarchy about what ambition

looks like. So how do you define success? Yeah. Ambition is an interesting one. I think for me, success is just a very, very personal concept. think there’s no, there’s just no one definition of success. And I think for sure early on in my career, I think success and financial remuneration were quite closely correlated to be completely honest. And I think some of that comes from

having come from a low socioeconomic background, I had a lot of anxiety around money and finance and having enough money to support myself. so when I started, when I got my training contract on day one, I was earning more than my mum was earning who had been in the profession, she’s a teacher for decades. And to me, was that everybody

in my family was like, wow, you’ve really made it. So that became a kind of measure of success. And I think once you get on that path, especially in private practice, that success measure just kind of keeps ticking along and along up that hierarchy. And then, as I said, I’ve sort of realized success is much broader than that. And to me, it’s, I guess it’s, do you feel that you are

doing a good job, getting energy from your day to day, being a good friend, in my case I now have children, mom, partner, you know, all of those things and a good employee. So yeah, think it’s important not to get too fixated on title or, you know, remuneration or whatever those things are. They do matter, of course they’re important, but for me it’s broader than that.

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I love that you mentioned energy, everything is energy. And I love that you say it’s personal because it is, know, success is absolutely personal, you know, to, some people, you know, time is the utmost importance, know, it’s really important to others, maybe financial for reasons, you know, could be definitely. So, yeah, I absolutely agree with you. And you touched on earlier in the podcast around imposter syndrome showing up quite early in your career. How did you then go about overcoming it? There’s an assumption in that question.

⁓ I don’t think I have overcome it, ⁓ to be honest. don’t think it… ⁓ I’m not sure I ever will, to be honest. And I don’t see that so much now as the aim, as the objective. I think it’s interesting because to me there are two types of imposter syndrome. There’s an imposter syndrome that occurs because actually you are kind of an imposter because you may be… So just taking…

my example for as socioeconomic background if i’m in a room with five other people and all of them came from a very wealthy background and and had a different upbringing and education experience to me then technically speaking i am an imposter you know i’m different from the people in the room so so that one i think is just for me is i’ve become better at recognizing when i’m in that kind of scenario and thinking and and realizing that that is

a fact only. It doesn’t necessarily mean you don’t belong there or you don’t know, you you haven’t got a legitimate reason to be there, you’re not entitled to be there. And then the other part of imposter syndrome is where you kind of, again, to me, it’s a feeling that you have that isn’t really based on the fact that you’re different in any way from anyone else in the room. And I think for me, I imagine it’s just going to be a continuing ongoing practice to catch yourself in it and give yourself a bit of a talking to and again,

you know, having conversations, having people around me who I can share that with and who can kind of reflect back to me what I need to have reflected back to me is really, is really helpful. yeah, it’s not gone away completely. It’s definitely got a bit better, but I don’t think it will ever completely go. It’s just my personality, I think.

Maybe it’s something that drives you as well. It is, yeah. You’ve got great people around you. That’s clear throughout the discussion that you’ve always kept a good network of people that can champion and uplift you at those moments of doubt, uncertainty and success as well. Because any career has its ups down, twists and turns along the way. And that’s why we like those authentic stories on the show. Let’s fast forward to the present then. See Flex Legal. Tell our listeners for those who may not be familiar what Flex Legal is and what the organisation champions.

Absolutely sure. So Flex Legal is an alternative legal services provider. So it was founded, as you mentioned at the beginning of the show by Mary Bonsall. About 10 years ago, Mary was a former litigator and she spotted an opportunity to build a business that helped aspiring lawyers, so junior talent, get access effectively to sort of work experience in the legal sector and solving on the client side a problem with

in-house legal teams and law firms who have unpredictable workloads, whether that’s because of absences in the team or peaks in workload or project-based work. So the business was born a decade or so ago helping paralegals get their first foot in the door, so placing them on an interim basis. And then it gradually matured into placing interim lawyers, so helping people at the slightly more senior stage of their career.

a bit like I was back in the partner not partner day. I think that’s where these alternative legal services providers and alternative ways of working is really so different from the way it was 15 years ago because there are so, so many brilliant lawyers out there who do want to be able to retain some degree of flexibility for a variety of different reasons, but still want to keep their legal practice going.

And then most recently, so this was a few years ago, Flex launched ⁓ a ⁓ qualifying work experience training scheme for aspiring solicitors from ⁓ underrepresented socioeconomic backgrounds. So I’d actually met Mary quite a few times while I was still at LexisNexis. And I thought what Flex was doing was really inspiring, but it was the Flex trainee scheme that really kind of hooked me in because of my own background ⁓ and because I

could absolutely understand and see what the value was that a business like Flex could offer to people who come from that demographic. So I joined the business as we were sort of coming out of COVID. I came in as head of the client services team. So at that stage, I was overseeing the interim side, the candidate team that worked on our paralegal and lawyer placements. And then

as is often the way in a small business. This was my first experience of a small business. So that was quite interesting. And yeah, it’s quite fluid. know, lots can change quite quickly. I came in as head of client services, evolved into a COO role. Then Flex was acquired by Mishkonde Raya at the end of 2023. And then I came into the CEO role sort of first quarter of 2024. So yeah, it’s been a very busy few years.

over here at Flex. Absolutely, but all going forwards and momentum building when it comes to your own individual career. So let’s stay with the present then. CEO, what does the role of CEO at Flex Legal entail? It entails all of the things, especially in a small company or a relatively small, ⁓ fast growing company.

That was one of the reasons why I joined the business actually, is because I wanted to challenge myself in an organization that had less rigidity around structure, less established processes and ways of working, and that was looking to scale and grow. So the CEO role is absolutely everything from

We don’t have enough forks in the kitchen. We need to sort that out all the way through to what is the five-year plan for the business and everything in between. So it’s incredibly varied ⁓ and I really enjoy that about the role. I think what Flex is really good at internally as an organization as well is trying to make sure that the roles that people are doing really do play to their strengths. ⁓ And again, that’s one of the benefits of being somewhere that’s small because you can

We’re nimble and we’re very agile. so if somebody shows an aptitude for something or a strength in something, then we’re so supportive of them, you know, following that thread. And if it adds value to the business and then it’s the win-win. yeah, so the CEO role is some of it is inward facing. So making sure that the team is working, the teams are working well together, that everybody’s got what they need to do to do a good job, that everybody sort of understands the direction we’re going in and what the priorities are. And obviously external facing as well.

building client relationships and keeping in touch with people in the market, both on the candidate and on the client side to make sure that the business is evolving to support both of those cohorts of people. And it absolutely is. And now probably the most important question of the podcast now is have you sorted the forks out? Yep. We’re all good for forks at the moment. Yeah, forks are fine. I was going to ask a sort of follow up in jest there of a typical day. I think you’ve outlined that they’re probably not a typical day. There’s so many

different angles to it. So maybe a better follow up is sort of what initiatives are you working on this year as part of your role that you’re most excited about? Yes. So there are a few. think the first one and the most kind of challenging and creative one is obviously AI. I mean, everybody’s talking about it. We did get to around 26. I know. I’m sorry. I’m sorry. No, here for it. We’re right. We can’t not be.

I think it is a really interesting topic and I think what kind of keeps me awake at night is thinking through on the candidate side of things, how we equip everybody who works through FLEX for this brave new world. So we’ve started to experiment with training our interim lawyers and paralegals and our trainee group in

how they think about use cases for AI, what responsible use looks like, and some of the various different specific tools that are out there in the market. Because the reality is none of us knows really what this is going to look like in a few years time. And so I think it’s just constantly reviewing and keeping track of how we make sure that our people feel confident to navigate this kind of period of uncertainty ⁓ and to make good decisions about what they use and when they use it and how they test the output of it.

For me, feel like AI is a real opportunity for Flex, for an alternative legal services provider. Wherever there’s kind of uncertainty and disruption, small organizations, small nimble organizations have a really good ⁓ opportunity to have an impact. So I feel quite excited about it. And alongside that, kind of getting my own, getting comfortable with my own knowledge and understanding of it. So it’s nice to feel like there’s something kind of very new to get your teeth stuck into.

⁓ So that’s one sort of initiative and then it’s thinking about somewhat related to that, what’s the ambition for the business over the next few years when it comes to the interim side of our business, but particularly on the trainee side. So how do we make sure that we’re continuing to bring people through the trainee program, give them opportunities?

work really closely with clients who can provide the QWE element ⁓ of the experience because that’s the bit that we can’t do ourselves. So we’re very reliant on in-house organisations coming on board and supporting the mission with us. ⁓ And again, I love that. I get lots of energy from that. ⁓ We’re so lucky to have lots of in-house organisations who believe in the mission as much as we do. ⁓ And it’s just fantastic working with them to help build up their sort

pipeline of junior talent. Yeah, that shared vision is powerful, isn’t it? Definitely. You know, I love your glass half full really, when it comes to AI and the opportunities and the growth mindsets and go with that. And you were touching on it. And I know it’s what attracted you, as you mentioned originally, the FlexLegal, the trainee social mobility scheme. So let’s dive a little bit deeper on that, because there’s an award winning initiative launched in 2021, designed, as you say, to boost social mobility in the legal profession. So as a champion of DE &I, in what ways

Does it aim to actually support candidates from underrepresented and indeed low socioeconomic backgrounds? Good question. I think it’s a few ways. One is the scheme is a dedicated social mobility scheme. So that means that all of our attract talent attraction and hiring processes are built around that as an objective. So

We really try to make sure that we give people a really positive experience of coming through the assessment centres, for example. Whether they’re successful or not when they come through those, we always give them really good feedback on how they did, what they can improve for next time. And of course, we’re making sure that when we are going out to try to attract candidates into the scheme, we’re looking in the right places.

For example, we partner with charity called Strive, we partner with the 97 % Club, who all share our mission and our vision. I think then it’s also about how we prepare people for the workplace when they come through. So a little bit based on my own, as I said, experience of what it was like being kind of parachuted into a law firm with no real preparation or anything like that.

We don’t do that. So before the trainees go out onto their first circumvent, they spend three weeks with us on what we call our readiness program. And we take them through core skills training, things like how to prepare for a meeting with your supervisor, how to have a good one-to-one, to receive feedback, how to seek feedback, how to manage stakeholder expectations. We do some technical training with them around

drafting and reviewing documents, legal research, that sort of thing. And we also invite industry speakers in to talk to them about what life is like in-house. So they get to meet GCEs and heads of legal and hear people’s stories. think for me, storytelling is so powerful and it really helps, I think, little bit chip away at that sense of imposter syndrome. If you have somebody in the room who’s maybe five years ahead of you or 10 years or 20 years ahead of you who says,

I found this hard and I came from this type of background and here I am. It gives you a sense of belief that you can do it too. So the readiness program is really important for those three things. And then once they’re out on placement, again, it’s not just drop people in and go figure it out, see you on the other side. You know, there’s lots of ongoing mentoring and coaching from us at Flex. So they get access to coaching and mentoring here, but it also we link them up with industry mentors as well who can just

bounce ideas around, and I think facilitating that peer group that goes back to what I was saying about what I found. So what has helped me a lot along the way is having people who are at the same stage as you, who are in your corner and who can validate and share with you the highs and the challenges. And that’s not necessarily easy to do when you’re training in-house independently, because for a lot of the time, you’re the only trainee in that organization or you’re the only paralegal in that organization.

having a peer group who are not necessarily in your workplace, but at the same stage as you, to me is one of the most valuable things about it. Yeah, and it’s fair to say you do a lot and yet it can be very lonely. Absolutely. So having that peer group is great. And I love that you talk about the stories, know, facts tell, but stories sell. You really connect with people and people can understand and you really connect with their journey and think, that’s me right now. And I can get to, you know, where I’m looking to go. Absolutely. Okay. Sticking with…

law firms then and social mobility. What is still misunderstood about social mobility and what steps should firms be taking to promote and support social mobility? One of the issues in the profession in general is just that we don’t necessarily have good data on it and the first, so the SRA obviously collect data every every couple of years on diversity and as

fed through from the firms. And I think it’s probably one of the diversity characteristics that’s least well understood. So for us, our social mobility benchmark is driven by the Social Mobility Commission and our aspiring trainees have to meet two of the Social Mobility Commission markers. And the one that’s most typically used asks a question about parental occupation when you were 14. ⁓ But it relies on people, you know,

filling that in. And so I think the first step is the firm encouraging people to do that and to share that information as honestly and openly as they can. ⁓ I think that it’s misunderstood in the sense, not necessarily misunderstood, but I think that there’s more that firms can do to understand what the impact is of coming from a low socioeconomic background. So I talked a little

a while ago about financial anxiety. And that can have a huge impact on the way you show up at work. it’s, again, naively, I think I thought when I’m on a trainee salary, that financial anxiety will go away. It actually almost intensified because I didn’t know how to handle that. didn’t really know what to do about pensions, didn’t really know any of those sort of things that maybe firms might take for granted. I think putting

effort into understanding what the anxieties or ⁓ issues might be and then building some support around that is really important. And I also think it’s role modelling. It’s always role modelling. think, again, I have definitely seen more senior people prepared to say that they came from low socioeconomic backgrounds, but

Unless they actively do that, you don’t know who it is in the room. So it is a hidden diversity characteristic. You can’t make assumptions about somebody’s socioeconomic background. mean, you shouldn’t make assumptions about anybody’s diversity characteristics, but that one definitely is harder to know unless somebody’s prepared to say it. I think platforming people.

in the firm who share that characteristic is very helpful. Yeah, absolutely. And just raises visibility, doesn’t it? Definitely. And it’s just so helpful all around. Okay, we talk a lot about obviously around legal careers. It’s the heart of the show. So how do you think flexible resourcing models and alternative career paths will reshape what a successful legal career looks like over the next few years? I think it’s all about choice really. And I think the pandemic

Sorry to use that word as well. But that really shook things up a bit, didn’t it? In the profession in general, think the profession pre-COVID times was very rigid around things like even flexible or hybrid working. And then suddenly overnight, everybody was working from home. And I think it’s quite interesting seeing now what’s happening in terms of the kind of recalibration of that with some firms going back to the default way it was.

before and other firms kind of picking that staying with that middle ground. And I think what the last few years have done and will continue to do is put people more in the driving seats of their careers. And I think there’s a little generational element of that as well. think the new generation of talent that’s coming through for a variety of different reasons are more conscious about what they want out of their professional working lives and are

less afraid to say it. So, you know, I can’t imagine a world in which when I was at the beginning of my career in my training contract, there’s no chance I would have gone in and asked for any kind of flexibility on ways of working or asked for anything, actually, I was just grateful for whatever I was given. So I think that that shift in expectation and mindset will, will continue and

in a way, think it sort of also might filter upwards. think that I think we might be coming into a period of kind of reverse mentoring, reverse apprenticeship type of dynamic, where we’ve got some good things to learn from the from the generation coming through now about about what success looks like. And so I think that organizations like ours, anything any any organization or any

institution that facilitates people to be able to make choices, I think will have a really positive impact. Yeah, and you know, I advocate for a lot of the change as well, because if nothing changes, nothing changes, right? And you know, if the next generation, you know, maybe they don’t see burnout as a badge of honour, maybe they don’t see, you know,

life just being behind a desk and nothing else not being able to travel and see the world and various other things and having choice. you know, within within reason, I think it’s great that, hopefully with all the different routes now available into legal, you don’t just have to be the traditional legal route, can do other things connected, particularly with AI, which I’m saying now and everything else. But I feel it’s very exciting time for people in and around the world of law. That’s for sure. Okay.

I want to talk now about you were recently diagnosed with ADHD. So what insights can you share about navigating C-suite with neurodiversity? Well, that is a big question. ⁓ I think what I would say as a starting point is I’m still learning about that. you know, being late diagnosed is means I don’t completely know myself. But and I think that’s where it’s important to

make time, especially when you’re in a busy, demanding role, it’s very, very easy to start work on a Monday morning and get to a Friday evening. And you’ve just been on the go all the time. So I’m starting to learn that it’s important to take time out of the weeds. Again, support is so critical. I have ⁓ an ADHD coach who

I work with to ⁓ help me start to understand the way my brain works and what works and how I can… So I should actually say that for me, there are definite ⁓ challenges that come with the way my brain works, but I’m also aware that there are…

lots of ways that my brain works, which have been very supportive to me in my career. So I think going back to that, ⁓ always putting my hand up for opportunities, that’s because I love novelty. And my brain responds really well to something that is challenging and new, and I’m very curious. ⁓ So it’s just beginning to piece together exactly what that looks like. I think one of the things that I have, this isn’t your question, because your question was about ZSweed, but actually what I’ve found most

positive about my diagnosis is the impact that I’ve been able to have on more junior members of the team who have also disclosed. So I haven’t really talked openly about it, you know, sort of at an organisational level at Flex, ⁓ but I have had some really positive one-to-one conversations with various different people and that’s very… ⁓

It’s a real privilege actually to be able to do that. So yeah, I might need to come back to you in 12 months time and tell you exactly the answer to your question about navigating the C-suite. ⁓ yeah, it’s a bit of a voyage of discovery at the moment. Yeah. But as you say, you certainly realize the limitations, but also the strengths and the opportunities through understanding this more as you go through this journey. I love that you also have a coach as well, because it can help bring out the best of you and guide you through. yeah, it’s a really good

Piece of advice actually, people going for other things, know, coaches are seriously powerful. You look at any of the top sports people in the world, they’ve got coaches, you know, similarly in business. So if you can have them, I think they can bring out the best in you. Definitely. Okay. What practical changes should the legal sector be making to provide an inclusive environment for neurodivergent leaders? The simple answer to your question that comes straight into my mind is not to assume that it’s one size fits all. I think, you know, there’s lots of

people who say you’ve met one neurodivergent person, you you’ve met that neurodivergent person. The way neurodivergence manifests for people is very bespoke. So I think the simplest thing to do is to create an environment where somebody who wants to disclose and have a conversation can do that in the most positive way possible. so asking questions about

what works really well for you and sort of leading with the strengths of your neurodivergence puts you in the mindset of this is going to be a supportive conversation and this is here to help me. So, like subtle shift in language like that, I think can help a lot. And then the sort of broader aspect of that is creating an environment where people feel able to do that and

⁓ and making sure that all conversations and disclosures are welcome, regardless of what it’s about, ⁓ and that the outcome of that is going to be support and something positive. ⁓ And I think it’s sort of somewhat related just not making assumptions, you know, and I think it’s incumbent on leaders, I think, to…

educate themselves if they’re not educated and don’t feel comfortable in this sort of thing. There’s so many different materials and resources out there and you don’t have to be an expert but just read a little bit around it and you know sort of follow your instinct and your judgment and ⁓ I think that will help. Again I feel I can’t imagine even if I had been aware of my diagnosis 20 years ago I don’t think I would have shared it.

at that time and the world is different now and that is a good thing. That’s not to say that we haven’t still got lots of work to do, we absolutely do, but I think the fact that we’re even having this conversation is so encouraging. It gives me real optimism. And that’s where Technology for Good, a simple example, podcast went around 20…

30 years ago, getting these messages out there and sharing these stories, sharing them all. We can do that, educate and inform, environments can change, we can hopefully humanize and connect more with one another, learn, et cetera, et cetera. This has all been about the law and your successful legal career thus far, but the qualifications don’t stop there. You’re also a qualified clinical hypnotherapist, ⁓ yoga teacher, sound mediation teacher, and breathwork practitioner.

Lord knows where you find the time. I thought I was busy. So how do these ventures add value to your decision making and leadership skills? Yes, see previous comment about my ADHD brain. I go around collecting certifications. But yeah, mean, that really is my, that is, as I said, the positive aspect of the way my brain works. I’m so curious. So how did all that come about? It started when I was a teenager. So when I was about 13, 14, I

suffered quite bit from anxiety. I used to have quite regular panic attacks and my mum was at sort of a loss to know what to do with me and took me to a yoga class in my local leisure centre and she knew nothing about yoga. She’d just sort of read about this at the time she called it some newfangled thing which of course it isn’t, it’s you know many many centuries old but she took me along to this class and

I just loved it. I absolutely loved it from the get-go. I didn’t have the language for it that I have now, but I understand, knowing what I now know, that the teacher I was in the class with at that time was incredibly invitational and it was not competitive at all. It was unlike anything else I was doing in my class. was just, in my life, was just a sort of space to breathe and move, know, sort of move around a bit as you wanted to.

That was where it began. And then after I left private practice, before I joined LexisNexis, I went off to study, do my first yoga teacher training in an ashram in India. And from there, when I came back to the UK, I probably did a certificate of some kind, you know, once every couple of years, because I think it ⁓ keeps your, for me, it keeps my brain

kind of ticking over and it takes me out of the day to day and it means I meet totally different people every time I’ve done one of these sorts of qualifications or certifications. You’re with people from all walks of life and all different sectors and backgrounds and I ⁓ love that. in terms of how it impacts on my day to day, ⁓

I think I now have in my toolbox like a huge range of different practices and tools that I use for myself. Often the most simple ones are the best ones. I have a very simple breathing practice that I do before a board meeting to just like steady myself. And it definitely makes my parenting journey a little bit easier as well.

Yeah, hope I don’t stop doing that. It does feel a little bit like I’m sort of just collecting certifications, like people collect stamps, but there are lots of reasons why it’s, I think, really beneficial.

And I’m sure fellow parents listening to this, myself included, will probably be tapping you up for tips on the breath work when little people definitely challenge you at times. They really do. And don’t get me wrong, I am no perfect parent. That’s for sure. But it’s definitely helpful to have the other thing in your toolkit. Yeah, absolutely. So before we let you go, this has been absolutely fantastic. Kate, what advice would you give to individuals from a non-traditional legal background trying to build a career in law? Yeah, I think

What I see every single day in my professional life is just how incredibly resilient people who come from non-traditional backgrounds are. And I don’t think they always realize at the time that they are. again, I would say give yourself a little bit of time to recognize that and just take, know, acknowledge

that what you’re doing is probably quite hard and you’re still doing it and you are turning up and you’re bouncing back and you’re keeping going and don’t underestimate that. I think consciously logging that in your brain is really helpful. I also, as part of that, always often say to people whenever you get positive feedback, whether it’s in an interview situation, whether it’s in your role, it doesn’t really matter where it is. Even if it’s in a Saturday job that you’ve had in a

a hotel, log it, put it in a folder somewhere. And on those days where you feel uncertain about yourself or it’s hard, go to that folder and just read, you know, something that somebody else has said about you. Because if you find it hard to believe it in yourself, then use somebody else’s words. And then the third thing I would say is just again,

find your support network. It doesn’t need to be big. You don’t need tens of people. You need one person in your corner and it can be a peer, can be a mentor, it can be anybody, but share with them when you’re finding it tough. And as you said, just believe in yourself. It sounds very trite and kind of a little bit hallmark, but you really just have to back yourself and believe that.

It might not happen on the timeframe that you want it to happen on, but it will happen. I really do believe in that, that what my mum always says, what’s for you will not goodbye you. And I think that’s absolutely true. It’s got to have a bit of faith in the universe. Yep. I’m with mum on that. Absolutely right. And to your point about the network and not being huge, I always say, you know, you’re one connection away from changing your life.

That could be that mentor, could be that business partner, could be a relationship, could be anything. Definitely. And this has been a beautiful conversation, Kate. Thank you for being so open and sharing your journey. And I’m sure you’ve inspired a lot of our listeners listening around the world. And if they want to follow you or learn more about your career or indeed Flex Legal, where can they go to find out more? Feel free to shout out any websites out or any social media handles. We’ll also share them with this episode for you too. Yeah, perfect. So the Flex Legal website you can find on the interweb.

And best place to find me on socials is on LinkedIn. So Kate Gaskell, and you can find me at Flex. There we go. Just leads me to say thank you so much, Kate, for joining me on your birthday and for your first ever podcast as well. It’s been a pleasure having you on the show. So from all of us on the Leagues Being podcast, a very, very happy birthday, wishing you lots of continued success with your career and future pursuits. But now from all of us, over and out. Thank you for listening to this week’s episode. If you like the content here,

Why not check out our world leading content and collaboration of the Legally Speaking Club over on Discord. Go to our website www.legallyspeakingpodcast.com. There’s a link to join our community there. Over and out.