“Some of the best lessons that I’ve learned in life are from the losses and not from the win.” – David Jackson

On today’s Legally Speaking Podcast, sponsored by Clio, I’m delighted to be joined by David Jackson. David is a commercial, outsourcing and technology lawyer who joined Shoosmiths in 2006. Leading Shoosmiths’ national Commercial Group for more than a decade, he helped the firm develop its technology and launched its connected services business, Shoosmiths EIGHT. David took on the role of Chief Executive in 2022. Under David’s leadership, Shoosmiths has continued investing in people, technology and infrastructure. The firm has experimented with new approaches to legal technology and AI, connected services and initiatives.

Today, we will explore David’s journey from commercial lawyer to CEO, what it means to run a modern law firm, how the role of a CEO differs from that of a Managing Partner, and the strategy behind Shoosmiths’ transformation

So why should you be listening in? 

You can hear Rob and David discussing:

– Leadership Being About Influence and Followership

– Building a Clear Strategy and Being Able to Make Difficult Decisions

– Embracing AI and Tech to Transform Legal Service Delivery

– Putting People, Culture and Clients at the Heart of Growth

– The Importance of Being Ambitious, Resilient and Kind.

Connect with David Jackson here – https://uk.linkedin.com/in/david-jackson-16ab9b8

Transcript

David Jackson (00:00)

Excellence can come from unusual places. Leaders are only leaders so long as they have followership, and I think that’s really important in a law firm context, particularly a partnership, where other key stakeholders are in the business with you. So I only get to do my job if I can convince my partners and the broader Schusmith community to head in the same direction. That’s been really important as we’ve navigated these changes over.

Last few years. One of the key responsibilities, I believe, of any leader in a current leadership role is to equip your workforce with the tools that they will need to thrive in this new world.

Rob Hanna (00:35)

On today’s Legally Speaking podcast, sponsored by Clio, I’m delighted to be joined by David Jackson. David is a commercial, outsourcing, and technology lawyer who joined ShoeSmiths in 2006. Leading ShoeSmith’s national commercial group for more than a decade, he helped the firm develop its technology and launched its connected services business, ShoeSmith 8. David took on the role of chief executive in 2022.

Under David’s leadership, Shoesmith has continued investing in people, technology, and infrastructure. The firm has experimented with new approaches to legal technology and AI, connected services and initiatives. Today we’ll explore David’s journey from commercial lawyer to CEO and what it means to run a modern law firm and how the role of a CEO differs from that of a managing partner and the strategy behind ShoeSmith’s transformation success. So, a very big warm welcome to the show, David.

David Jackson (01:28)

Thank you so much, Rob. It’s great to be here. Thank you.

Rob Hanna (01:31)

it’s absolute pleasure to have you on the Legally Speaking podcast. big fan of your work and all the great stuff that you’re doing with the firm. But before we get into that, we’ve got a couple of serious icebreaker questions. Well, not so serious. Firstly, what’s your favorite beverage and what’s your preferred choice of footwear on a typical work day?

David Jackson (01:48)

I would say a nice Sauvignon Blanc is probably my favourite beverage. I assume you meant alcoholic beverage. otherwise Either or Okay, well diet Coke then in that case, if I’m yeah, if I’m being sensible. And preferred footwear, a pair of brown shoes maybe, although mostly at the weekends I’ll be in a pair of crocs in the garden.

Rob Hanna (02:11)

It’s amazing how many people are saying crocs in the most recent episodes we’ve had. They’re definitely getting out. Yeah, I know, absolutely. okay. One piece of legal technology or everyday technology you now rely on that you would have thought unthinkable at the start of your career.

David Jackson (02:28)

I am a big Claude fanboy. So Claude is my favorite AI tool of choice at the moment, but it does fluctuate. obviously when ChatG VP came from out that blew my mind. and I’ve used other products as well, but Cl Claude is my favorite at the moment. I find it be qu particularly creative for creative content, yeah.

Rob Hanna (02:48)

Absolutely. Okay. Well thanks for those. Let’s get into your your story, David. Could you walk us through your journey from studying law to becoming a commercial lawyer and then joining Susmiths in two thousand and six and then ultimately becoming chief executive?

David Jackson (03:00)

I guess it was a bit of an unusual route for me because I guess growing up in the eighties in Bristol in a working class family, really humble beginnings. I’m the youngest of four boys, so my poor mother had four of us to contend with as we were growing up. but becoming a lawyer, whilst it was a dream, it wasn’t really a realistic aspiration, or at least so I thought.

I was always the geek in the family, so I loved school. I was always kind of into into doing my schoolwork. and so I kind of stumbled through the academic process and found myself at university studying law. So I’m not sure it’s necessarily on the cards for me, but because I always enjoyed school, my parents were really encouraging of me to use that as a route to achieving something in life. I trained at

What is now Squire Patton Boggs, but back in the day it was Edge and Ellison, a great firm in the in the Midlands. and then I moved on qualification to join what was then Dib Lupton Orso in 2000 and became DLA. really enjoyed my time there as a junior commercial lawyer, had the the privilege of working with some exceptional partners. And then in 2004 I went in-house for a couple of years, which was really quite unusual.

For commercial lawyers, taking that route with the intention of coming back to private practice. I always felt that as a commercial lawyer, in order to have credibility with clients, you need to spend some time working in industry. And so I spent two years working in-house, love my time in-house, learn a a huge amount, particularly for how private practice lawyers should work with in-house counsel. And I used that experience when I joined Shoesmith in 2006 to

develop I guess a practice around serving the in house lawyer community and working with general counsel over the years to deliver services in a way that really made sense for them. And and that was kind of I guess the the the foundations for the career that I’ve built and and where I find myself today.

Rob Hanna (05:15)

Yeah, and it’s it’s wonderful to hear. I’m I’m one of three boys, so one one light. So definitely get the the empathy for your for for your mum there as well. And you know, you mentioned geeking out a little bit. You spoken about coming from a background where you may not typically choose a route to become a lawyer. What inspired you to truly pursue a career in law? Was there a moment? Was there a s thing, something you saw?

David Jackson (05:40)

So this will date myself, but for those listeners that remember LA law back in the eighties, I had I guess this image of what being a lawyer might be like, which is completely not how it is in in real life, not least because those lawyers were based in Los Angeles and you know, they’re across cars. but it but it became the aspiration for a kid in the eighties growing up in Bristol that, you know, I’d love to have that job and that lifestyle.

I think I was always quite argumentative as a child as well. So I think teachers always assume that putting those those skills to good use in a profession would would make sense for me.

Rob Hanna (06:18)

Absolutely. They say play to your strengths, right? so you mentioned obviously joining Shoesmith in two thousand and six. What did you see in the firm there then, which made you want to build a career there?

David Jackson (06:28)

Great question. So one of my colleagues and friends from DLA actually joined Sheusness early in 2006, Alex Bishop, who’s now the the head of litigation at Sheusness actually, and she’d recommended that I have a conversation with a few of the partners back at the end of 2005. And at that stage, I wasn’t looking to move back into private practice from my in-house role. It kind of the opportunity came up more quickly than I was anticipating.

and at that time the firm had recently opened up in Birmingham and they were looking to establish the full suite of practice areas and they needed a commercial person to come on board to kind of spearhead the commercial practice in in Birmingham. And I was only 30 at the time, I was five and a half years qualified, and and it was just too good an opportunity to to pass up. I’ll be ever grateful for them taking a chance on me at that stage in my career.

I had intended to go back to DLA actually, and and I remember having a conversation with one of the partners at DLA, kind of summing up this this opportunity. A big opportunity, but also potentially a big risk for someone at my stage in in my career. and I’ll never forget that that partner was incredibly gracious and they said, Look, at your age, you know, how many people get the opportunity to go and set set up a team?

What’s the worst that can happen? If it doesn’t work out, there will always be a a home for you here at DLA. And that gave me a safety net. but it also gave you know it gave me the opportunity to be to be a bit bolder in in seizing that opportunity and and really making the most of it. So I will always be grateful to that to that partner, Fran, for giving me, I guess, the encouragement, but also the backing that if it didn’t work out, there was a safety net there for me.

Rob Hanna (08:17)

I love that. And we talk a lot around the show about having mentors and people around you that can inspire you, help you grow because you know the comfort zone’s great, but nothing ever grows there. And taking that opportunity, like you say, sometimes you’re only one opportunity away from changing your career, and Chloe, that was a great move for you. Want to talk now from the move from lawyer to CEO, because you spent many years as a commercial lawyer and led Shoesmith’s commercial group before becoming CEO. What did the role of a commercial lawyer teach you about leadership?

David Jackson (08:46)

Commercial lawyer exposes you to lots of different types of scenarios and lots of different types of businesses. So it gives you a really good broad grounding for not just legal practice but also operating in business because you get to work with clients across you know lots of different sectors, doing lots of different transactions, commercial deals. So it gives you a really good broad perspective. And I was always interested in the

Operational, the practical side of how businesses operate. And in many respects, that’s why I chose to be a commercial lawyer in the first place, because it kept options open to maybe go and work in business, as I did as an in-house counsel, but maybe more broadly as a commercial director doing deals, for example. So I think that that broad contractual and commercial experience was was really useful in understanding how businesses operate.

And then I guess as a as a outsourcing and technology specialist, I could see where the the world was moving in terms of emerging technology and the impact it was having on legal practice. And I felt that I had something quite unique to offer in terms of a bigger leadership role, taking that commercial experience that I’ve gained over many years of working with clients and building up my

I guess my my commercial expertise, but also marrying that with my passion for technology, emerging technology, and looking at how you could deploy that technology in the delivery of legal services. And so it kind of made it a natural choice for me personally. I was very lucky that I was the kind of in the right place at the right time with that skill set because it feels like being a law firm leader in this moment in time, it matches my experience gained over many years. So

as with many things in in our careers, you know, timing is really critical and you need lots of lots of luck as well along the way. So it’s kind of all come together for me at the right time.

Rob Hanna (10:52)

Yeah, absolutely. And I also think you make your luck as well. You’ve worked exceptionally hard. And I I love there’s a lesson in there that you were sharing as well, which I hopefully our listeners picked up. The self belief, you know, to back yourself actually and the confidence to take these opportunities and to sort of rise to the challenges, I think is a really good career lesson for people tuning in. we have people tuning in from from all aspects of of law and people entering the profession. So more of a just a practical sense now, just so our listeners know where we sit.

How would you describe the difference between a CEO and managing partner of a law firm and how do the responsibilities differ?

David Jackson (11:24)

SheSMIS changed its corporate structure back in the early 2000s and moved away from the traditional managing partner, senior partner roles to a CEO and a chair to mirror the structures of our clients. And I think my role as chief executive is probably broader than a managing partner role, but it’s similar in many respects. My job is to

look after the day-to-day running of the firm and to execute the firm strategy. So working with the chair who has an oversight and governance role and making sure that the executive is kind of held to account. But my job is to deliver the the firm strategy and and it’s quite a broad role as a chief executive because you get involved with everything. So my direct line reports are the the chief finance officer and the chief operating officer.

And then we’ve got a whole business services function around that with lots of directors and functional leads. But then also I’m very active on the legal services side. So three three divisional heads also report into me and I’m responsible for the financial performance of the divisions as well. So it’s quite a broad role. But it’s a you know it’s a it’s a privilege to to have this role, and it’s it’s challenging, but it’s it’s massively rewarding.

You know, g it gives me access to colleagues across the entire breadth of our firm, as well as client side as well. So I still, you know, I’m active with working with clients and and listening to our clients about how we can evolve our service offering to make sure that we remain relevant as the the kind of the the legal world changes.

Rob Hanna (13:14)

And changes rapidly, of course, as well, the way way we sit today. You mentioned obviously in charge of the day today. I I probably can’t ask you what does a typical day look like ’cause it it’ll be too varied, but maybe just a week in your life. What does that look like again so people can picture the image of what these CEOs are getting up to within a law firm? Walk us through that.

David Jackson (13:29)

Yeah, so it is really varied and that’s partly why I love the role actually. It’s it’s impossible to get bored in in in these roles. So we have a really ambitious growth agenda at ShoeSMIS at the moment. So my typical week involves talking to potential partners or teams that might want to come and and join the firm.

We’ve been very open about the next phase in our firm’s growth is about internationalizing our platform. So I’m spending a fair bit of time talking with partners in overseas territories across Europe, spending time in those jurisdictions, meeting with people, exploring whether there are opportunities to join Shoesmiths. I also spend time with my divisional heads, understanding what the pressures are that they are facing and that.

Partners and lawyers are facing in terms of the market dynamics. And then also on the kind of operational side, making sure that the operations are running smoothly. And that varies from week to week. So at the moment, this week my CFO is retiring after 20 years amazing loyal service. So I’ve been quite busy working with the interim CFO that we’ve got on board to make sure that she understands.

the kind of priorities of the business and I’m kind of supporting her to get up to speed with everything. But it’s a really varied, a really varied role. And I, you know, in terms of where am I based, predominantly in London, but a lot of because we’re a national firm, I spend a of my time in many of our core locations across the country as well. So yeah no no two days are the same, no two weeks are the same.

My wife’s often asked me, you know, what are you what are up to this week? and unless I’ve got my my nose in my diary, I really couldn’t tell you. I kind of look the night before where I’m supposed to be the next day, turn up with a smile on my face and and and just get on.

Rob Hanna (15:33)

you’re preaching to me there. That’s exactly how I feel certain weeks as well. But it’s incredible what you’re doing. And I love the passion in your voice and the energy and the excitement you have for internationalizing and clearly the ambition. I mean, I’ve followed Schusmith’s journey for many years, and it’s incredible the growth and you know some of the people you’ve been able to acquire and some of the innovations that you’ve brought. You touched on before, but again, just to give our listeners a bit more clarity around the strategic commercial thinking. You mentioned you changed the model to reflect more of your.

clients. Would you just take us through whether any challenges, objections from people wanting to keep more of a traditional model? And if you were to do it again, how would you think about doing it if you were a law firm who is potentially considering doing it?

David Jackson (16:14)

It predates my time as CEO, so the the the visionaries back in the early two thousands thought that it made sense for our law firm to mirror the structures and the way in which our clients are organized so that there’s, you know, less friction when when clients are are using us. And that’s a structure that served us well over many years now. And so it’s just ingrained in in how we operate. interestingly, as of the first we’ve made some some further structural changes

just this week. So on the first of October, we we realigned our divisional structure. So so historically we had a corporate real estate and an advisory services division. And within the advisory services division that included several of our specialist areas, including my old team, the commercial group, our litigation capability, employment and pensions. And that was established over a decade ago now and and that structure served us well.

One of the things I I’m keen to do is to put people together who can collaborate more effectively around client need. And so we’ve just moved our commercial colleagues into an enlarged transactions division to work alongside our corporate colleagues because we think there’s greater potential for collaboration amongst those people when it comes to serving our clients. And it’s also enabled us to have a much sharper focused litigation and risk division.

which is focused on our contentious capability and how we take that out to market. So we’re always looking at refining the the platform and making sure it’s fit for purpose, that it’s reflective of how clients need to access the firm. It also takes account of how the market is evolving. obviously we’ve been on quite the journey over the last four years in terms of

I guess redefining what Shoesmith wants to be famous for in the market, and that’s involved divesting ourselves of several areas that that aren’t necessarily core to our 2030 strategy. So it’s you know it’s an ongoing thing that we need to keep just just just sense checking. Are we structured to I guess capitalise on the opportunity that exists in the marketplace? And crucially, how our clients need to access.

access our expertise and and and services across the broad range of services that we offer.

Rob Hanna (18:46)

That was the key point I was picking up there, how exceptionally client centred.

you are and you know clearly that’s testament to the success that you’ve been having and look nothing changes if nothing changes in business and you know we have to to evolve with the markets and and and the rate of change that that that’s happening and I love that you talk about two things that we talk about all the time the show my listeners will be sick and tired of me saying it but one is that the friction piece you know you want you want fusion rather than confusion the more you can remove that friction and meet your clients where they’re at the better the experience the better the trust levels all of the good stuff and then collaboration is domination I love that you talk to

About the importance of that. I think it’s so, so important. And you touched on some huge milestones, obviously mentioned the first of October. I want to kind of give you a reflective chance now on milestones, because moving from perhaps regional to national, and like you say, what you want Shoesmith to be famous for, you, you know, you develop very strong regional roots and now into sort of a national firm. Would you mind sharing some of the key milestones that you’re most proud of and the firms perhaps most proud of as part of that journey?

David Jackson (19:40)

Whenever you embark on a change programme, it’s not without its challenges because the most important thing, of course, is to take your people with you on that journey. leaders are only leaders so long as they have followership. And and I think that’s really important in a law firm context, particularly a partnership, where other key stakeholders are in the business with you. So I only get to do my job if I can convince my partners and the broader Sheusmas community that

Know they want to head in the same direction. And so that’s that’s been really important as we’ve navigated these changes over the last few years. And one of those changes is, I guess, redefining how we take our message to market from a geographic perspective. We have lots of offices around the UK, but what we’ve done in recent years is really concentrate our investment around the core economic centres.

across the UK. So we talk about core offices in Edinburgh, Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham and London. But we also have amazing people in other locations throughout the UK. And it’s really important that when they hear me talk about the core locations in those large economic centres, that they don’t feel as though we’re somehow leaving them behind. They are absolutely a crucial part of the Shoesmith story and the amazing service that we deliver for our clients.

But I’m also conscious that we need to try to simplify the message going out into the market about what ShoesMiss is about. And so yeah, we we have lots of brilliant people across the UK and in Scotland and in Northern Ireland and in Brussels. but sometimes when you present a version of the fund to the external market, you you have to simplify the message somewhat.

But as I say, it’s really important that that people that aren’t in those core locations don’t feel as though somehow they’re not equally as important as as those that are.

Rob Hanna (21:36)

Absolutely, you’ve got to take them on the journey to say we is greater than me. And I I absolutely agree with just simplifying things. I think sometimes it’s so much better to be clear than it is to be overly clever. I think if you can get real clarity, because ultimately if you confuse these people, you’re going to lose them. So really key points. Okay, I want to talk about London now. I know you’ve sort of touched on, but I want to focus on this because it’s it’s a bloody competitive dominated market. You know, it’s it’s not easy to cut through. And you know, you’ve you you’ve come from regional offices, you’ve made a real investment into the London market, doing well.

How do you compete? How are you winning market share? What are some of the strategies and tactics that have worked well for you?

David Jackson (22:09)

Yeah, great question. So we’ve always competed in London, even though we haven’t necessarily always had an office in London. So one of the things that I think the firm’s been successful at is attracting London work, but then servicing it from our regional locations. And that’s enabled us to provide clients with a really great service, but but very cost effectively. We opened up in London in a really small way, probably about ten years ago, and have have grown it, I guess, in a material way over the last five years.

In fact, we opened our our London office during COVID. we had the fit out happening all all throughout COVID. But now that we we have amazing offices in Bow Churchyard in in just off Cheapside, and we’ve got a really thriving community there, over three hundred people. So it’s our largest single location now. It used to be Birmingham, which was just under three hundred, but London has has

quickly grown because I think we’re able to offer something slightly different in that market from a cultural perspective in terms of the kind of firm that we are. But I’m really proud of our London office because when you walk around it and the vibe of the London office is exactly the same as the vibe of any of our Shoesmith’s offices. And I think one of the reasons that we were probably a bit slower to open up in London was because there was a nervousness about what that might do to our culture and what we’ve seen maybe happen in some competitive firms.

but I’m really pleased to say that, you know, the as I say, the culture and the atmosphere in London is exactly the same as you’ll find in any of our shoesness locations. And I think it’s really important that we continue to ensure that that’s the case.

Rob Hanna (23:48)

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So you can focus on what matters most, your clients. Plus award-winning support 24-5 via live chat, phone, and email means help is always on hand when you need it. Visit Clio.com forward slash UK to find out why thousands of UK solicitors trust Clio. Now back to the show. Having had the honor of being able to recruit for the London office over the years as well, I think that’s so true. You know, the culture definitely

is is really consistent across the board. And I think like you say, it’s really hard to to sometimes get that right and certain firms maybe get that wrong and and it’s great to see see that shoe smiths is invested in that. I want to stick with growth now because your strategy is on becoming obviously a leading upper mid market firm in very selected markets. So how do you make the decision about where shoesmith should grow next and what are some of the factors you should be taking into consideration?

David Jackson (25:06)

Yeah, so one of the things that I looked at in the run-up to becoming CEO in in twenty twenty two, someone had recomm recommended a book by Jim Collins called Good to Great. so I would definitely recommend that book to any of your listeners that haven’t haven’t read it. I mean it is, you know, it’s a classic and it’s interesting. I so so I took a holiday just before starting the CEO role in

2022 and I was sat around the pool reading this book, again geeking out. but I had several people just come up to me around the pool and say, That’s an amazing book. So it is it is a great, it’s it’s a great book, but but it’s it’s a blueprint for how companies can follow a really clear strategy. And so that was massively influential for me in t in developing the shoes strategy around clarity of focus.

And really understanding where the firm can be successful and where we should play to win. And one of the things about that book is you know, you have to be honest, honest with yourself about your capabilities and where you can play to win. And so when we established our strategy in 2022, I deliberately chose 2030 as the reference point for where we should set our goals because that enabled us to be more ambitious than we might have been if we were just looking at a three or four year strategy. So there has to be

credibility to the vision that you set for your people. And so part of the journey that we’ve been on around divesting of the non-core areas and saying that we’re really doubling down on corporate real estate, litigation, those are the major engines of shoesmiths. And then having clarity around our five core sector focus areas, that’s where we are concentrating our investment. And in terms of that that upper mid-market space,

it’s quite difficult to define, but but effectively it it’s the premium mid-market that we’re chasing. And we we we want to be a leader in that space. You know, excellent quality firms known for delivering legal excellence, but at a price point that maybe is is just below the the elite global firms. And and that’s where we’re pitching ourselves. We also think that by marrying the latest technologies around AI with our service provision.

Actually that is a sweet spot for for where ShoesMith can really excel and where our people can really excel for our clients.

Rob Hanna (27:28)

We’ll obviously talk about tech and AI in a in a bit. We can’t get away from it on every episode now. It’s it’s the world that we live in. I also love the book Good to Great. And I also heard you know Jack Newton, who’s CEO of Clio, who who who, you know, they they sponsor our show talked about that and you know the importance of the flywheel and the momentum and the energy inputs, and the more that you can put into the flywheel, you know, that more momentum compounds, and actually you get better and better and better and better. So I’d absolutely recommend.

Anyone listening to go and check out that book, if you’re thinking about building a business, you’re stuck, or you want to take to a new level, I think it’s a great resource. I couldn’t agree more. I want to double down now on a talent attraction specifically, because earlier this year, ShoeSmith announced the promotion of nine new partners, reinforcing the firm’s continued investment in exceptional talent and its focus on delivering high quality, complex work for clients. And you shared ShoeSmith is focused on high quality work and creating an environment where talent and people can do the best work of their careers. So what

Does Shoesmith specifically offer lawyers and staff to attract and retain the best talent in a very competitive market?

David Jackson (28:31)

It yeah, it’s a really competitive market actually. And the the default answer would be around culture, but I am really conscious that every law firm nowadays holds itself out as having this strong culture and a great culture. And I’m sure that’s the case. so so culture of course is critical, but I’m not sure it’s

Differentiator that maybe it was 10 years ago. Because I think law firm leader leaders understand that in order to attract the best talent, you’ve got to provide a culture where people can thrive and they can be their authentic selves. So that is obviously an important part of who we are and what we celebrate at Shoesmiths. But I think specifically what we can offer people is the is an active seat in growing and building something. I think there aren’t too many.

law firms at our stage of development where people can genuinely come on board and making a meaningful contribution to the growth and development of our practice and where we’re trying to get to. You know, we’ve set ourselves a really ambitious 2030 strategy and we’ll only deliver it by having really great, motivated, exceptional people to help get us there. And so that’s the thing that we can offer that maybe some other firms can’t. It’s if you come to shoesmiths

You’ll get access to brilliant quality work, amazing clients, fantastic colleagues, but you’re building and shaping something that you can look back on in 10, 15, 20 years and think, do you know what? I played a key part in helping the firm get from there to there. And and and that’s been the thing that attracted me to this firm 20 years ago, and it continues to be the thing that attracts people to the firm today. Every Friday, it’s normally the first Friday of the month, but

It’s been a bit busy over the last few weeks. I I have a virtual coffee with new partners that have started and and I had two of them today, one with a tech and AI specialist in our London office and another with a real estate partner in Leeds. And both of them talk about being attracted to shoesm’s because they want to come and and build something and be a part of building something and and and feeling as though that they

are not a small cog and a massive wheel, but actually their contribution makes a meaningful difference. So so that’s the differentiator I think. If you want to come and join a firm where you can actually move the dial, this is this is the firm to join.

Rob Hanna (31:01)

Yeah, we we talk a lot about amplifying your impact. And I think that’s a great example of that where you, you know, not just lawyer, you know, you have and I think also the firms and companies of the world that have a clear mission and people can understand what that impact and how that directly affects the mission that you will buy in through the values and goals that you set. I think that ultimately creates high creates high performance. you touched on culture. I want to give you a chance to to maybe brag a little bit about the culture because you know, how do you preserve culture and the identity that shoesmith has been very successful at over the years?

Whilst obviously having very ambitious growth plans to and to continue to grow.

David Jackson (31:34)

Yeah, look I I’m I’m smiling because I’m so proud of our people. You know, they we do have just the most amazing people within the firm. Really down to earth people. They’re excellent at what they do, but they don’t brag about it. You know, there is a you know a quiet confidence to to my colleagues at Shoesmiths. and they’re all super ambitious and and really hard working. But

You know, they’ve got great personalities, you know, and and as I say, they don’t take themselves too seriously. And it’s, you know, it is a privilege to lead such an amazing bunch of people. and you know, I quite often talk about the the difference that we make or that our people can make and help deliver towards our strategy, the kind of the things that would otherwise go unnoticed, but because people do the unexpected things, it takes our service from expected to exceptional. There are so many examples of.

of this across across the business in every role. and so the challenge I o often give our people is, you know, just think about how you could do something and and and and if you didn’t do it, nobody would notice because nobody was expecting it. But the fact that you do it makes all the difference. And there are a million little examples of where people do that and they they really take that to heart. And you know it’s it’s you know

Quite often I move to tears genuinely because I hear some of these stories. And it’s not the corporate stuff, it’s the personal stuff where they’ve gone out of their way to do something special, either for each other or for for our clients in a particularly challenging situation. So yeah, I couldn’t be prouder of of the people that we have in our firm.

Rob Hanna (33:16)

And I love that. And I think it comes down to also just being a good human, right? Little touches, big impact. My my late grandfather ran a successful law firm built off his own right in the nineteen fifties in in in Leicestershire. And every morning, I mean, at the time he only had about forty or fifty people in the office, but he made a made an effort every morning to go and say good morning to everyone in their office, from the cashier to the receptionist to his partners and and lawyers, and just having that sort of connection and that just making feel people seen, heard, and you know, it’s that little thing.

taking the time and I think that’s irreplaceable. And you you talk about that culture instilled across the firm. That’s super powerful. Cause it’s a given you’re a technically gifted lawyer. There’s a reason you’re in the position. But actually putting all these things together, that creates a wonderful culture. Okay, want to talk about tech and innovation now. And we’ll talk about AI in a second as well. But technology has been a significant part of your career, my career, pretty much everyone’s career, including

Obviously you’ll work around Shoesmith’s Eight and connected legal services. So Shoesmith Eight is about being a trusted advisor who can triage any issue and assemble teams and solutions to order. So would you mind explaining how eight works in practice?

David Jackson (34:18)

Yeah, so it’s a connected service business and I know that these were all the rage about ten years ago. and actually during lockdown the then CEO gave me and and a few of my colleagues the challenge of setting up

A similar service offering for ShoesMis, and that’s what we did. So we we established ShoesMus A. is now run by an amazing guy called Tom Speller, who is a pocket rocket. You know, he’s got so much energy and and and enthusiasm for what we’re building. but it but it but essentially it’s a bunch of ancillary services that sits alongside legal services. So it’s it’s it’s not the delivery of of legal practice, but it’s stuff that’s adjacent to.

So, some good examples. We’ve got a product called SmartSAR for subject access requests. So we can take that headache off of our clients’ desk where they’re dealing with multiple data subject access requests and put a system and a process around it to help our clients comply with their regulatory obligations, but do it in a way that’s really cost effective and just takes that headache away from them.

There’s another one around AI compliance. So as we’re starting to see emerging AI regulatory requirements, we’ve joint venture with a third party tech provider to go into our clients and audit their systems and protocols to see whether or not they are compliant with either existing or likely emerging

regulatory requirements. So as you can see, it’s not necessarily law that’s being delivered and in and and in most cases it’s not lawyers doing the work, but it’s adjacent i i to what we do at shoes in terms of legal practice. But at its core it’s about identifying a problem or a headache of a client and and then taking off their their hands and and dealing with it in a in an effective way. Yeah.

Rob Hanna (36:15)

And clients will love you for it as well. okay, I promise to talk about AI. We’ll we’ll talk about AI in the future lawyer now, because you know, AI is rapidly changing the legal profession. I mean, you can see the level of investments in in legal technology, acquisitions, the super mergers that we’re seeing, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But how is AI affecting the way your lawyers are thinking and developing their skills?

David Jackson (36:36)

Yeah, I j I mean it is absolutely the core of what we’re what we’re doing and what we will do. We had been playing with AI for a good ten years now. So you’ll remember that probably ten years ago, AI started to emerge as the next big thing. but at that time we refer to it as kind of analog AI. So it was rules-based decision treat AI, which was was very effective, but actually the kind of target market, so the client base was very skeptical about this technology.

It wasn’t really pervasive across society in a way that it is today. And so it took a long time to take off. We joint ventured with a company called Thought River to create a product called SEEA, which is a contract review product. It’s an excellent product. We learnt a lot through that endeavor because trying to take it to market at a time when the market wasn’t really ready for that product offering.

But all of that changed obviously when ChatGPT first emerged and everybody had access to these tools on their telephones or whatever. and of course, generative AI is very different from the AI of 10 years ago. and we’re just starting to understand that the power and capability of that technology. But it will fundamentally change how everybody operates. And one of the key responsibilities, I believe, of any leader in in a current leadership role.

is to equip your workforce with the tools that they will need to thrive in this new world. And because of my experience of having developed that product with colleagues at ShoesMiss 10 years ago, we were very quick off the mark to start implementing AI tools. So we wanna what we were one of the law first law firms in the world to trial Microsoft Copilot. We obviously were one of the first businesses

To financially incentivize colleagues to engage with AI. Our £1 million for £1 million prompts campaign that we ran a year or two ago gained a lot of traction in the market. But that was all about getting colleagues excited about being curious. So we we obviously had very clear frameworks around the early use of AI to make sure that we were using it responsibly. We always talked about using it in the business of law, but not

practice of law, so not using generic AI tools to deliver legal legal advice. And obviously as as products have become more sophisticated and and and legally tuned AI is available then they can start deliver using it in the delivery of of of legal advice. Be very very careful in how we’ve rolled it out. But we’ve absolutely encouraged curiosity. I love hearing about the the novel use cases

That people at the coalface are finding for this technology. I mean, that’s where true innovation comes from. You know, it’s not from me or anyone on the board, it’s it’s from colleagues at the coalface thinking, my goodness, there must be a better way of doing this, or there must be an easier way of doing that. And then using technology in a creative way to deliver on that. And actually, last year we ran a a client excellence campaign and we we challenged all of our people across the business to find new ways of

really leveling up our services to clients. And we we put some amazing prizes behind that on a quarterly basis. And the Star Prize was a choice between a a brand new car to celebrate our amazing automotive clients or £25,000 towards a new house to kind of honour our house builder clients and the winning entry was from a colleague that had identified

A particular challenge that our real estate colleagues had when working with corporate clients with multiple lease premises across the UK. And for this particular client, it’s a high street retailer, and they probably got around 600 units across the country. And quite often the client would ask our colleagues questions around that lease portfolio. You know, when’s the break date? What’s the kind of rent review?

And historically that’s been quite a manual process. And so this colleague Joanne Bevan created an AI agent using Microsoft Copilot Studio. Nobody had asked her to do it, but she had identified that there was this friction in how we deliver for our clients. She created this agent for our lawyers. And then it meant that when the client was asking questions, the lawyers were able to interrogate the information and service it.

much more effective way. But we also then opened it up to the client so that they could have direct access to this agent and the information repository. And the client was just blown away. And so she won a brand new Volkswagen EV. And because we developed it in partnership with Microsoft, the UK and European CEO used it as a case study as part of his keynotes at London Tech Week earlier this year.

And so, you know, another brilliant example of one of our amazing colleagues taking it upon themselves to try to find a novel solution to a problem that was going to help not just her, not just our clients, but also our colleagues. And it was really I was really proud that that then got the recognition it did from, you know, the the the highest parts of Microsoft.

Rob Hanna (42:00)

Proactivity pays. I think that’s a great example of that. You know, you actually go out there, be proactive. Yeah, all the accolades, truly well deserved. Okay, vision. What is your long term vision as CEO for ShoeSmiths? And how do actually go about planning achieving the goals that you’ve set out for the firm?

David Jackson (42:16)

Yeah, so our so our twenty th thirty vision and I guess using technology in a novel way to deliver better and faster outcomes for our clients. I’m not we’re not trying to create a an AI native firm, but we do want to be AI enabled. but it’s still grounded in human qualities. You know, I think AI will become a a superpower that we use to deliver amazing results for our clients.

But fundamentally, law is about relationships, that trusted advisor status. You know, I think as legal professionals, it’s a real privilege that we have that relationship with our clients where they call upon us when they really need help. You know, when when when they’re back in the corner, we want to be the people that they pick up the phone to so that we can we can help them through that that process. And I think that is a really privileged position to be. So

Human skills are are critical. I think at Shousemis, we’ve always prided ourselves on the fact that we are good people, you know, down to earth people to do business with. And if you can marry that with the very latest technologies, you know, you are delivering something truly exceptional for your clients. So so that is in broad terms is is is the direction of travel. I guess from a granular perspective, you know, we’re really excited about the the the next phase of growth for the firm in terms of internationalizing our

our practice taking the amazing work that we do to our clients in in other jurisdictions and yeah, it’s it’s an exciting time to be at the firm.

Rob Hanna (43:52)

Yeah, you you’re doing incredible work, it it has to be said. And like I say it all the time, we’re no longer in this B2B, B2C, it’s that H to H, that human-to-human connection and those people skills and building that connection with your clients, your colleagues, your mentors, stakeholders is going to be your your superpower. Okay, a couple of reflective points now. well actually is one is a a recent LinkedIn post that I saw, which obviously sparked our connections as well. Your your partnership with Northampton States and Loughborough Lightning.

Being a Midlands person myself, although less the Tigers fan, admittedly, you highlighted the connection between Saints Northampton route and Shoesmith’s own history. So how important is the connection to the firm’s identity as it continues to expand nationally?

David Jackson (44:33)

Yeah, this is a really interesting one because for a long time I think we probably didn’t have the confidence to shout about our Northampton roots. The legal market is super competitive, and when we’re trying to establish ourselves in London, it probably isn’t the most obvious thing to be talking about being founded in Northampton in eighteen forty five. But one of our core values as a firm is being ourselves. And we really want

Our people to show up and be their authentic selves and not have to put on a mask or pretend to be someone that they’re not. And actually that extends to our corporate brand. We were founded in Northampton in 1845. We have an office in Northampton staff of amazing people. I quite often call them the kind of unsung heroes of the firm because it’s many of our back office functions. And so when this opportunity to work with

Lightning and and Saints came up. I thought it was both a brilliant way of honouring my colleagues in Northampton, because Saints is is is their team in particular, but it was also a way of demonstrating that excellence can come from unusual places. You know, Saints and Lightning are elite rugby clubs, you know, elite sports people at the top of their game. and they’re from Northampton and they’re proud of it. So yeah for us

it was it was a great opportunity to honour that. And and when we started out on this journey, I didn’t know that William Shoesmith, who established the firm in 1845, two of his sons played for Northampton Saints in the 1880s. And the actual the idea for the partnership came from an article in The Lawyer early this summer where it talked about the fact that London’s most prolific deal makers were born in Northampton. And there was that juxtaposition between

the fact that our firm does more MA transactions in London than any other law firm, and we’re from Northampton, which probably isn’t the most obvious place you’d think of the law firm coming from. So the I love a headline, I love a story, and that kind that story just wrote itself. And so it’s a really new endeavor. We we we haven’t kind of done a a a sports partnership really before, but it’s it’s exciting and colleagues around the business are really excited for it. So we are now now all of us

passionate Saints and Lightnings fans, even though some of my colleagues may well support Leicester Tigers, they’re not allowed to say it in in public.

Rob Hanna (47:07)

Well, they’re welcome in our community anytime. But no, I think it’s a wonderful story, like you say. And I I love like legacies and you know, things like that that just shine through. Okay, some final advice now for listeners, watchers who want to become partners, managing partners, indeed CEOs of of top law firms. What do you say are the top three skills you’d encourage them to think about developing early on in their careers?

David Jackson (47:30)

I’m a good example that anybody can do this if they put their mind to it. There was nothing special about me. I as I say I came from really humble roots. I was very fortunate to have people around me that supported me and backed me and gave me that encouragement. and so I try to pay that forward now with other people in terms of giving them that same safety net when they decide maybe they’re gonna leave Schusemus and go and take a an adventure somewhere else. You know, we always want to to

kind of part on on really positive terms. So put yourself out there. don’t be afraid of failing. we all fail. You know, things don’t always go according to plan. but it’s important, you know, building up that resilience and learning to cope with the failures and the knockbacks in life. But you know, some of the best lessons that I’ve learned in life are from the losses and not from the win. so and then just

I guess, you know, kindness in in twenty twenty six is re I think is a a great development that kindness is a really important part of being successful now. It sounds trite, but it is true. You know, just treating people with respect, kindness and ambition and not taking yourself too seriously and being prepared to fail and learn from it, then that will serve you pretty well.

Rob Hanna (48:50)

I think it’s really sage advice and I I could I couldn’t agree more. You know, it’s something I’m passionate about. And with a lot of the work that I’m trying to do with the the show along with the team is to build a more kinder connected collaborative legal community and and sort of perhaps remove some of the old perceptions that that existed because it it’s just gonna help so many people. And I think when you’re talking about the the sort of

Getting on with it there. It brings to mind the the Winston Churchill famous quote, isn’t it? That I’ll probably butcher, but it’s something along the lines, success is not f final, failure is not fatal, it’s the courage to continue that counts. And I think that’s so true, isn’t it? In a lot of the world that we we live today. I think if you can keep going, you know, good things will will happen. Okay, if you can finish this sentence before we close, they’ve really enjoyed today’s discussion. So complete this sentence for us. The future of the legal profession will belong to the firms that

David Jackson (49:40)

Embrace the change.

Rob Hanna (49:42)

Could not agree more. I’m really well said. David, this has been a wonderful conversation. Really enjoyed listening to your own journey, your ambition. I can just hear the passion and the excitement for Shoesmith and the plans that you have moving forwards in in your voice. If our listeners want to follow you or indeed learn more about Shoesmith and the firm, where can they find out more? Feel free to share any websites or any social media handles. We’ll also share them with this episode for you too.

David Jackson (50:05)

Yeah, absolutely. So I’m on LinkedIn, so I always accept LinkedIn connections. So please do link in and check us out at shoesmith dot com. it’s a really exciting time at the firm. So if you if you want to learn more, please do get in touch.

Rob Hanna (50:21)

Absolutely. Just leads me to say thanks so much again, David. It’s been an absolute pleasure having you on the show. And I think this conversation has given us real insight to what it means to lead a modern law firm as a CEO, the journey from a commercial lawyer to an established leader, and to transform Shoe Smith from its regional roots into a very growing, serious, national and potentially international firm. It’s about building a clear vision for the future. It’s about understanding your clients. I think we’ve heard very closely about being client centred, attracting, developing great talents, in addition to obviously creating the environment where your employees can thrive.

And of course, we talked about embracing the importance of AI technology, recognizing the importance of those human skills. So from all of us here on the League’s Beam podcast, sponsored by Clio, wishing you and everyone at Shoesmiths lots of continued success. But for now, David, over and out. Thank you for listening to this week’s episode. If you like the content here, why not check out our world leading content and collaboration hub?

Legally speaking club over on Discord. Go to our website www.legallyspeakingpodcast.com. There’s a link to join our community there. Over and out.