How can the law save the environment? Tune into this episode, featuring James Thornton, the President & Founder of ClientEarth, to find out more about the way that government legislation is protecting and supporting our planet for future generations.  

So why should you be listening in?  

You can hear Rob and James discussing: 

• What ClientEarth is and how it operates 

• How law is helping to shape a more sustainable future 

• James’s book, ‘Nature, My Teacher’ 

• The significance of the Clean Water Act 

• How to deal with climate anxiety  

Transcript

Rob Hanna 00:01 

Welcome to the legally speaking podcast. I’m your host Rob Hanna. This week I’m delighted to be joined by James Thornton. James is a world renowned environmental lawyer. James is the president and founder of ClientEarth in addition to author, poet and Zen Buddhist priest, described by the New Statesman as one of 10 people who could change the world. James won the Financial Times Lifetime Achievement Award for Innovation in law and one Leader of the Year at the business green awards. Weiss. James is a solicitor in England and Wales and admitted to the New York and California bar as well as the Supreme Court of the United States. He is also the conservation fellow of the Zoological Society of London, an honorary professor of law at the University of Bristol and visiting fellow at Lady Margaret Hall at Oxford University. James recently published his book, ‘Nature, My Teacher’ in time for Earth Day on the 16th of April 2024. So a very big warm welcome, James. 

James Thornton 01:01 

Thank you very much, Rob. What a warm welcome. That was, I’m delighted to be with you today. 

Rob Hanna 01:07 

Well, what an amazing host of achievements and projects and experiences you have. And before we dive into all of that great work, we do have a customer equation here on the legally speaking podcast, which is on a scale of one to 1010 being very real, what would you rate the hit TV series suits, in terms of its reality of the law? If you’ve seen it?  

James Thornton 01:28 

So I would give suits a six in terms of reality. Because in from my time on Wall Street, not my longest part of my career, the experience wasn’t either as exciting or as glamorous or as fun I’d give it eight in terms of drama. But I can I tell you, the show I give it tend to which iPhone compulsive is Better Call Saul, which is the follow on from Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul was about a lawyer going down and down. And it’s really compulsive. 

Rob Hanna 02:00 

I love that. And no one’s actually suggested that one before. So thank you for sharing that. And I agree with a lot of your comments. And most people when they asked me when I’m out and about, I tend to give it a six. So we share that. But today, James is all about you. So obviously, I gave a very high level overview there in the introduction. But would you mind telling our listeners a bit more about your background and career journey? 

James Thornton 02:20 

Sure. So I started by going to law school in New York at New York University. And before that undergraduate, I’d studied philosophy, and biology. And if anything, I thought I was going to become a biologist. But by that time, it became clear that the environment was in serious shape. I came from a family of lawyers. And even though environmental law wasn’t on the menu, back when I went to law school, I thought, if I become a lawyer, I’ll have powerful tools. And maybe I can do something better. So I started there, and then clerked for a federal judge with a wonderful name, John minor wisdom. And he was a great, he was a great judge, and then worked on Wall Street for a little while, and then went to the Natural Resources Defense Council, which NRDC is an environmental charity in the United States, and I found my home there. And I just loved matching in my passion for saving the environment with with legal chops. And that’s what I’ve been up to. Yeah.  

Rob Hanna 03:24 

And you’ve been very busy between now. And then that’s the short. So let’s fast forward though, to being the president and founder of ClientEarth, one of world’s most ambitious environmental organizations just love that. But what is ClientEarth for those who may be less familiar? And what are its aims? 

James Thornton 03:42 

So ClientEarth is an environmental law, charity, and it’s now global, it started in the UK. And then quickly, we spread through Europe. And now we’re in Asia, as well. So we have people in Singapore and office in Beijing, and office in Tokyo, and most recently in LA back to United States. And we can get into the why later, but so it’s a global organization now of 300 people, almost 200 of them full time, lawyers inside. And the idea is to use law for the planet. It’s a charity. And we work with more than 300 environmental groups around the world, and with people in government and industry who are looking to do the right thing. So, so think of us as a global law firm for the planet. That’s how I think and what’s the aim? Yes, what the aim is, I have to tell you what the aim is. The aim honestly, is to save civilization. You know, the I look forward and I spend a lot of time on the science of climate change and natural laws, and talk to scientists and all my work is based on science. And my idea is that law is one of the most powerful tools you can use if you want to contribute to say I think civilization and trying to imagine and create a good future for people and nature. 

Rob Hanna 05:06 

Yeah, and it’s absolutely why I wanted to get on the show. It’s something we support at the leading speaking podcast. And we spoke briefly off air and I joked on my saying, it’s impossible to get through everything with you, because today is all about you your journey, your career and what you stand for, and your passion. But, you know, if our listeners do enjoy this and would like to see further content, particularly around this particular area, let us know right into us send us some messages, because I think it’s such an important topic, you know, who doesn’t want to ensure that our future generations, our children, our grandchildren, and so on and so on, aren’t in the best environment, possibly, particularly in this technological revolution that we’re in, but let’s get back to ClientEarth, you know, how is ClientEarth bringing them the law science policy to create practical solutions to key environmental challenges? 

James Thornton 05:51 

You just said it very well. That’s what we’re trying to do. And the idea is we start always with, with the science, so we, we find out what the best sciences in a field were interested in. And the way we find the fields to work in is, what are the most pressing problems. So climate change, nature loss, obviously, the largest issues at the very beginning, when I was starting in 2008, in in the UK, I talked to the climate scientists, and I said, Look, if there’s one thing I can do for the rest of my life using law, what should I do? You tell me, and they said, if you can stop the building of any new coal fired power stations in Europe, that would be you know, enough to feel good about your life. And I said, at that point, we had three or four people. And I said, Okay, fine, we can stop the building of all new coal fired power stations in Europe. And, and we did. So we did that by a very strategic program of litigation, looking at how you could influence the countries and the companies and then litigation was the tool. But what we really do to look at it more holistically is we work on the whole think of it as the life cycle of the law. So it starts with the science, you learn from the science, I like to say if the Earth is the client, which is why it’s called ClientEarth, the earth is a client and everyone who lives on here, so everyone listening and their children and their dogs. I mean, everyone is the client, you know? So if the earth is your client, have you interview your client, as a lawyer, you have to interview your client, right? And the answer for me is science. Science tells you what nature needs. So you talk to the scientists, tell us what you need, what nature needs, and then you figure out policy, to take the science into the realm of politics, then you go into the legislature, whether it’s Parliament here, in London, parliament, in Brussels, Congress, United States, wherever it is, and you help write the law, very key, you help write the law, because in Europe, right at the beginning, when I started up clientearth, was that there were almost no lawyers involved in the environmental movement, anywhere in Europe. And what the legislators say in Brussels, were telling me was, look, we don’t have any legal training, we don’t have any legal help. And we have companies coming in who want things from us, which are very anti environmental, and they come in with beautifully written amendments to the law. So if you could come in and help write the law, then we will get a balance going. And a lot of what you try to do is, is that so there, there are some companies who want to do the right thing, and there are many who don’t, from my perspective, and they have tremendous legal tools, and tremendous legal armies, the environment in the EU, and much of the world really didn’t have anybody. What you want to do, by using law skillfully, is to give a balance of arms to the planet and to the interests that are challenging the planet. So that’s it leveling the playing field. And if you like being a being a samurai, for, you know, for all of our listeners, for everybody, you know, and challenging bad acts, and then after you write legislation, somebody has to enforce it. And frequently, the countries should but don’t enforce. And until in Europe, there was very, very little enforcement by citizens until ClientEarth and indeed in the United States before I started doing it over there. So enforcement then is the last step. And it’s one way there are a lot of stories about and then enforcement in big fights. You know, it’s it’s less easy to tell fun stories about being in Parliament and negotiating in a corridor. But you know, but anyway, you take that run from all the way from the science through writing the law to enforcing the law, and that’s how we try and get very practical impacts.  

Rob Hanna 09:49 

Yeah, and you gave a very practical tactical example and we love that on the show and yeah, it’s just fascinating listening to you there and it just makes all sense. You know, I absolutely on board with everything you shared you talks about sort of, you know, when you said somebody said to you, you know if you could change this when it comes to the, you know, coal fired power stations, is there anything currently any current initiatives that you’re working on that you can share with us that you’re exceptionally passionate about? 

James Thornton 10:12 

Well, well, that I mean, so the coal is still is still an issue. So, and in so we work in China, and we’ve been working there for for some time now. And one of the things we wanted to do was to convince the Chinese government to not build any coal fired power stations in the 100 plus countries, in their so called Belton Road initiative, their foreign foreign aid and foreign business. Policy is very complicated big policy, but over 100 countries and trillions of dollars, and they were looking at building 190 gigawatts of coal, that’s the equivalent of 191 gigawatt coal fired power stations. And with good intentions, they the intention really was good. They were saying, well, there are hundreds of millions of people in Southeast Asia and Africa, who don’t have electricity. And without electricity, they can’t have a good life. The economy can’t go up, we’re going to provide electricity. And it was, by the old you know, 50 years ago, a coal fired power station looked like a gift. Now it looks like poison. So we made an economics argument. We in our Chinese colleagues, and the government accepted that and canceled 190 gigawatts of coal, the result of which was that then they became very interested in building renewable energy in all these countries. And then we helped put together a $54 billion deal to build renewable energy in Indonesia. So the Indonesians then will have, instead of lots of coal plants, you know, a brand new way of creating energy, and there’ll be at the forefront of the new economy really terrific. So that’s the kind of an in the in the US I’ve maybe talked about that today, the most recent office, there that I had been very interested in bringing in the use of corporate finance, securities law, all of the business areas of law started that we started that in Europe, and have done it in Asia. But nobody was using all of those areas of law for the environment, and certainly no one in the United States. So that’s what that office is doing as well. And it’s revolutionary way of understanding how to use law to protect the environment, using corporate law, securities, fiduciary, duty, banking, bankruptcy, all those areas. And the first big case is against the oil and gas industry in in the West, which has used bankruptcy to avoid the costs of closing down oil wells, they pass them on to companies designed to go bankrupt. And by some estimates, they’ve avoided $3 trillion worth of costs, which then fall on the taxpayer. So that’s fraud. Nobody likes fraud. And so here, we’re using areas of law that are not environmental as such to achieve an environmental aim. And it’s a it’s a lot of fun, one of the really smart young leaders that are in office, who is a corporate law firm guy that we hired, I said, How’s it going after the first week, and he said, I just love it, because I’m using all these complicated areas of law to solve environmental problems. And they were never designed for that. So it’s really challenging and fun. I thought. 

Rob Hanna 13:42 

Great. Yeah, we need people like that. And I love that. And I love the passion. And those cases, I mean, they’re huge things that you’re sharing there that are making monumental impacts for good. Which is, you know, absolutely, again, what we’re here for on the show and trying to get that message out there. You’ve kind of touched on it, but I’ll ask the question, just to kind of get a more granular answer, you know, as the founder of ClientEarth, and I love that you say, the Earth is the client, and it’s so true. You’ve been at the forefront, and you’ve just given some of these sort of legal battles for environmental protection. But what role do you see law specifically playing in the shaping the future, for a sustainable future for all of us and our generations beneath us? 

James Thornton 14:23 

And that’s a great question, Rob. And the way I think of law is, it’s the rules of the game. Law is the rules of the game. So whatever game gets played, if you help write the law, if you imagine what the law should be through science policy, and then you help write the law, then you’re writing the rules for the future. And I’ll give you a couple of examples of really cutting edge things where this is going to be super important. And they both do relate to the environment, but more generally to society as well. And one is the whole new area of food made laboratories, so you’ll be aware that it’s possible now, it’s not yet commercial. But it will be to grow meat, chicken fish in biologically clean conditions and labs, and it will be those things, it won’t be artificial. Now, that’s great, because people want those things, and you will hugely reduce the environmental impact of growing them. And you would think everyone would say, well, that’s a win win situation. Well, no. So the rules here are going to be very important. The, in the United States, the right wing is already challenging, calling any of those things by their real name, meat or dairy. And they’re trying to prohibit from the market, anything like that from being sold. So here, it’s a rules challenge, you know, there’s a, there are going to be lawyers, not me, but there are going to be creative lawyers who are going to have to figure out how to bring things to market, and create the rules that allow new technologies that are great for people and for the planet to come forward. And others ai ai has tremendous potential to do environmental good, for example, you know, we need to rebuild the electricity grid around the world, in order to allow renewable energy to come on, and come on in a big way. And the grids are old and need redoing, and such new grids really will work by far better if they’re run by AI. But that’s the kind of great thing I can do. But it also has real dangers and being able to creatively regulate AI so that the dangers are minimized. And the opportunities increased, is a fascinating job for those. I mean, that’s a lawyer’s job. So the way I look at the opportunities for lawyers for the future is, you know, you think of the most interesting, challenging new things that are going to be happening. And then you have to create the rules of the game.  

Rob Hanna 17:08 

Yeah, and I love that you took the next sort of question I was going to ask about AI, because it’s everywhere, isn’t it at the moment, but you know, you’ve got, again, great use case there of how I always talk about tech for I always try to look for things for good, you know, as a community builder, and someone looking for positive outlook. And you know, energy is everything, in my opinion, in terms of giving that off. And yeah, you just gave a really great example there, again, how AI could be for good, but with moderate, you know, in terms of, you know, regulation and need to act with caution, etc, etc. So thank you for that. You know, as an esteemed environmental lawyer, James is probably in many cases you haven’t seen or touched on and your practice is probably, you know, changed over the years somewhat with various bits and pieces. But do you have any sort of memorable or interesting cases you’ve worked on that you would like to share? 

James Thornton 17:49 

Sure, there’s one. And, you know, as a guy who started out as a litigator, and then moved into being an entrepreneur, setting things up. My practice has essentially been to be an entrepreneur for many years now. And so they’re the barriers are finding the money to do all this work. Because this is charitable work. The Earth is a wonderful client, but she doesn’t pay you in the normal sort of way. People have to stand in and write checks, right? So you have to go out with your begging bowl and find the money. But, but of course, I’ve been very involved in in the cases of clean air didn’t, I had to answer a question at the very beginning of clean air. And this led to a case in 2010, our first big case in the UK. And the question was, Is it possible for EU citizens in the EU, which the UK wasn’t part of, but in the UK and the EU, to use law in such a way to benefit the environment, that you could enforce laws, you could hold governments to account, you could make them do what the law already said. So I looked around and decided that we’d bring a case on air quality, because, you know, the air throughout the UK and the EU, was actually much worse than in the United States because of reliance on diesel. And then you reliance on coal. So you had by the EU’s estimate some 400,000 people a year dying early of air pollution, that’s a lot of people. So it’s a real problem. And the air quality law looked like it was enforceable. And it hadn’t been done. So I thought, okay, that’s been a case in the UK to enforce the air quality law. And if that works, it’ll be good for equality and therefore for people, but it will also demonstrate that citizens can bring cases and do it successfully. And we won that case, it went all the way up to the Supreme Court. And the UK Supreme Court gave us its first environmental injunction ever, which was cool. And then we immediately took it to Europe, and we brought cases in the home of the jury and motor industry should guard diesel, Dorf, Munich and one, what drove the car companies nuts. But the interesting part there was we were doing it. This is always done in a kind of friendly way. I mean, because I knew that the German car companies were addicted to continuing to sell their diesel motors as long as they could. Whereas China was building terrific electric cars and it was going to wallop them in the market. So if you could push them away from diesel, you were actually helping their long term future. So long term future of industry in the EU. And that happened after we won this case in Germany 25% reduction, the next year in purchase of diesel vehicles. So here you have something where you can see a few people brighter strategic case. And then a couple more, that had a big impact on the market in a positive direction, as well as demonstrating citizens could fend for themselves, and also help the economy.  

Rob Hanna 20:59 

Yeah, again, fascinating stuff. And just want to get back to talking of course. And again, back to your your journey. You mentioned the Supreme Court, I was very lucky actually with them. The London young lawyers ago, you’re this grouping of words, many, many years ago, I think we hosted one of the first networking events there. And it was a fascinating place. And you know, I’m a big fan of that. But you are not just admitted in New York, as I said in my introduction, there’s the California Bar, as well as the Supreme Court of the United States, you founded the citizens enforcement project at the NRDC in New York, bringing lawsuits against companies to enforce the Clean Water Act, how significant in your opinion, is the Clean Water Act? And could you outline the hurdles you faced when taking on legal actions against those companies? 

James Thornton 21:41 

Yeah, the so the Clean Water Act is significant in a number of different ways. In the history of legislation in the United States, it was one of the three big environmental laws passed in the early 70s. So Clean Water Act, Clean Air Act, and the National Environmental Policy Act. And those really formed the foundation of the American legal order, which then also have informed what the EU did shortly thereafter. So very important in those respects. But in another was the law that took what were then very dirty waterways. The famous river went on fire, just before the passage of the Clean Water Act, because there was so much schmutz in it. And then you get this law passed, which required permits for discharges by the oil industry. And then that was enforceable by citizens, that was a real breakthrough. So citizens under the Clean Water Act, Clean Air Act as well could go into court and act as what are called private attorneys general. So if Bethlehem Steel, which was then the world’s largest steel maker, was violating its water permit, and reporting accurately that it was doing so the our theory was that we could go to court and enforce when the justice department wasn’t doing it. And it wasn’t because Ronald Reagan had just gotten in, and he decided there was going to be no more Environmental Enforcement. So it was good time to try this. And this was really the globally first time that citizens in a major way, started using the courts to enforce the law, when those who are supposed to be doing it, aren’t doing it. And I started, I was just in my 20s. And I was a refugee from Wall Street. The I started with a small group of people brought 60 cases in federal court all at once, and we won those. And, you know, it made an impression. And pretty soon, a couple of years in, there was a change in administration. And we, we had the head of EPA, call me in for a meeting. I thought I was just kind of lunch with the guy in his office. Instead, he had all of the enforcement lawyers from the Environmental Protection Agency in the room, 300 lawyers, and a diass, for me, and here I am, I very seldom talked in public to such a large group. And there is the big man who says, literally wanton, could you give us a seminar on Environmental Enforcement, you’ve carried the torch, and we seem to have forgotten. So that was really cool for a guy in his 20s. And I told them exactly how to bring an environmental case, and they took it up again. So that was a really fun experience. And I thought if, if we can do that, you know, we can keep going. And there’s more and more and more that we can do.  

Rob Hanna 24:40 

And you have them more and more and more and more. You definitely have kept your foot very much on the gas so to speak. Let’s talk about your TED talk because you discuss why China is appointing judges to combat climate change. So how do the judges using the power of the courts to address environmental problems then? 

James Thornton 24:59 

China is a fascinating example. And I was actually invited there to help the Chinese Supreme Court write a law to allow citizens to bring cases against polluting companies, including those owned by the government. And the reason they invited me to do that was they saw that I’d done that in the United States. And they saw that I’ve done it in Europe. So they, they basically said, Look, you must know what a legal system should look like, if citizens are going to bring these cases tell us how to do it. It was an amazing, amazing opportunity. And I helped them write that law. And then went back three months later, and met members of the Supreme Court again. And they said, What do you now want to do for China? And because we took everything you wrote for us, and we put it directly into the law, and I was amazed, I mean, I’ve, you know, you try and write laws in Europe and the UK and the United States, and you don’t just hand them stuff. And then they put it right in the law, this pretty amazing. And this is China. So I said, Well, okay, I’ve got this idea of last time, I was here that you just appointed all of these environment, court judges, 3000, judges, who are just going to hear environment cases, because they wanted to speed up Environmental Enforcement, they had good environmental laws, but very bad enforcement. And their goal was to bring it up to the level of Europe or the United States, they wanted first world enforcement so that companies couldn’t get away with violating the law. Oh, wonderful, and totally surprising to me at the time. And that’s why they will have appointed all these judges in the nobody else in the world has so many dedicated environment, court judges, it’s quite rare to have any, let alone this big group them. And then the judges said, Could you train them. And I thought, wow, this is like a science fiction. Moment. Here I am, the head of a relatively small NGO being asked to train Chinese judges to decide environmental cases. So I said, of course, and then we brought in experts from around the world. So environmental lawyers, and professors and prosecutors and judges from around the world to work with the Chinese judges and prosecutors, as it turned out. And it has led to a tremendous number of cases. So we got a letter earlier this year from the prosecutors saying it’s been great working with you, and we want to work with you more, we have 15 People in Beijing now. And then people from all over the world join us. And they said, it’s been really great, and we want to do a lot more. But so far, we have successfully completed 400,000 enforcement cases, since he started working with us, I thought, Wow, 400,000 cases, there’s nothing like this in the rest of the world. Now, they had a lot of ground cover, that’s for sure. But they’re covering it with unbelievable rapidity. And they’re that’s all types of Environmental Enforcement. And they’re, I’m pretty sure they’d be moving pretty solidly into climate as, as well, pretty soon. But this is a story that isn’t well known in the West at all, we just hear tough stories about China. And there are some reasons for that. But in terms of environment, they’re moving as fast as they can now. 

Rob Hanna 28:18 

And that’s good to hear. And, you know, it’s helpful coming from, you know, a respected voice who knows a thing or two about this, because like you say, I think, you know, media at times just wants the headline, rather than actually what some what people are actually doing, and it takes away maybe hard work that certain individuals will be doing for good. Interestingly, James, you’re a Zen Buddhist priests are first we’ve had on the show, what has been your experience as a Zen priest?  

James Thornton 28:42 

I started doing Zen 35 years ago or so when my life was falling apart. And as it does for more than one lawyer, you know, for, and I thought, well, this is something that’s supposed to give me serious grounding. And I don’t need faith to do it. And it’s supposed to be a repeatable method. You know, I was just, I mean, a lawyer is a skeptic by nature, right? So I was skeptical, skeptical. And I said, Okay, I’m going to, I really don’t know what’s going on in my life, it really is falling apart, I’m going to get on the cushion, I’m going to take instructions, and I’m going to meditate, I’m going to do this thing, and see if it helps. And it really helped. I took to it like a duck to water. And it’s really been the thing that’s kept me going through all of these years through experiences of burnout, through climate anxiety, you know, through all of the experiences up and down that you get, and it’s my rock, really. 

Rob Hanna 29:38 

I love that. And yeah, again, thank you for sharing vulnerability and you know, relatability because we are all human and you know, people can look at the CV and the profile and think, wow, but you know, nothing is straightforward. We’ve all got sort of challenges that we’re going through. So really appreciate you being open with us on that and I’m really glad that you found your outlet that’s good for you. As I mentioned in introduction in time for If the 2020 for your book came out ‘Nature, My Teacher’, love the title. What are some of the key topics and themes you explore in the book?  

Rob Hanna 30:08 

So ‘Nature, My Teacher’, again, titles important for me, whether it’s ClientEarth or ‘Nature, My Teacher’, and this, the title actually comes from my Zen teacher, I, I worked with him for 10 years, and then then he died. But I worked very intensely with him for 10 years while I was an environmental lawyer. And near the end of that time, he said to my now husband, met him for the first time and said, to my Zen teacher, thank you for all your teachings, which had been so important to James, and my teacher, the Japanese, he said, I am not James’s teacher, nature, nature is his teacher. And so that stuck with me all these years, and you know, who all of us when we go out and, and experience a connection with the natural world feel better. And it lightens burdens, and there’s a lot of research showing that now. And even taking a small walk in the park. And for me, nature has always been my teacher in that way. And my, my intimate partner, I, my vacations are always in nature, I love all of it. I mean, from insects, to birds, to everything. And so I decided to actually during a sabbatical last year, explore that more deeply. And so this is a book of short essays, so that it’s reasonably I hope, accessible. And, you know, it talks partly about the, the wonders of being in nature. And the, the wonders of human beings, as part of nature, and then aspects of our humanity. So memory, and loss. And then also very much goes goes deep into my own anxiety, so About climate and about nature. And during the sabbatical, that all came out, you know, and I thought I was dealing with it pretty well. And I’ll be very vulnerable, I, I slowed down. And then it was like, all the anxiety had been in a bottle, and the stopper came out of the bottle and poured out and like wham overwhelming. And I thought, this is really interesting. This anxiety, and I studied it, because that’s what you can do is and you like you sit there and whatever comes up, you study, right. So it gives you the safe space to study anything that comes into your mind or into your life. So I studied it, and I realized, hold on, anxiety is generally something that is out about something that’s not real, I can be anxious about, you know, my imagination of what she did to me, or my imagination of the future in some way, or will that bank account survive? And will it be enough and all of these things that aren’t actually real, you create scenarios. And so anxiety is about that. Not the case with climate anxiety. climate anxiety is a rational response to true facts. Because the facts are real, it’s happening, and it is difficult. It’s either going to be somewhat difficult or very difficult, depending on what we do about it. But I thought, okay, hold on this anxiety is teaching me to take this seriously. And then I looked into it more and more and more, I saw that there were lots of studies showing that young people in particular, are freaking out with climate anxiety. And I really want to help them understand that it’s a it’s a rational response, and then and then how to deal with it. So the book does a fair amount of that. 

Rob Hanna 33:43 

Because that that was going to be my next question, you know, because some people very close to me as well, you know, mentioned and talk around sort of climate anxiety is a growing concern. And you know, it is you quite naive if you didn’t have some form, I think, as a human, just the world that we live in as of today. I know the book goes into that, but sort of could you give any high level guidance for those that might be dealing with climate anxiety right now that maybe any tips or tricks you could offer? 

James Thornton 34:09 

Sure, I mean, the first one is to not beat yourself up about it. Because as I say, it’s it’s a, it’s a rational response to real response. So don’t feel bad for having the anxiety. My own way of dealing with it after all these years is to do something. So is to empower yourself and to say, I can actually act. So if I sit here and just hope that somebody else is going to do it. That’s me being lazy, and it’s not going to make me feel better. It’s not going to take away the anxiety. But there’s something in everybody’s life they can do. You know, whether it’s very small things like working in a community garden, that’s a terrific thing to do, and it sucks in garden. You know, if you’re a child, you know, you can bug your parents and bug your teachers to talk more about it and share more about so people actually understand more, if you’re a lawyer, the there are lots of opportunities to work with your clients on these things. And if you open yourself up to the opportunity for business, the business side of climate change and natural laws, there are lots of business opportunities that come up, in which you can help guide your clients to make decisions that are better on economics, and also better for the environment. So in every life, there is something you can do. As long as you think about it, you can say, oh, that’s something I can do it. And as long as there’s a thing you can do, you know, you start to feel less anxious just to feel empowered.  

Rob Hanna 35:42 

Yeah, and again, really good practical tips, you know, that not hard to implement, get away, you know, and work on these little things. Because, you know, it takes a village, doesn’t it, the more of you that come together and do those 1% changes, you know, big impacts will happen down the line. And we again, we touched on it briefly in the conversation, but let’s go a bit deeper, you know, much discussion of the environment has a negative focus, you know, people often then feel very disempowered that can then listen, you know, that’s very little, then they can do you know, when you get into that state of mind, and so how can we change the narrative? How can we, as individuals focus on the positive aspects of the environment? And what steps can we take in our day to day life, to actually start looking after our planet? 

James Thornton 36:24 

Well, I mean, one is simply to be grateful for it, you know, it’s very easy to forget how majestic, wonderful, inspirational nature is, even in its smallest elements. So more and more as I go for a walk in my local park in London, I’m looking to find, you know, an insect to study. And I’ll focus on it. And I’ll say, Well, I never saw that particular fly or beetle before, you know, how could I have missed it. And then you watch how it works on the flower, in this case, you know, things are flowering right now. And it’s like, wow, that’s really cool. And connecting it to it in that way, just brings you, it’s a thread that brings you into the hole of life on the planet. And that sense of wonder, is really easy to achieve, you know, and children do it instantly. If you take them out into the garden, you know, or into a park though. They’ll fall in their knees and start studying, you know, ants. And you know, what could be more fun, but adults can do it to have that sense of wonder is really available. And for me, refreshing yourself that way. Very, very important. And it goes beyond goes beyond the rational, you know, and then then you bring the rational in behind it, and say, Okay, now what can I do that? Can I kind of work with my clients, for example, on cleaning up their supply chains? 

Rob Hanna 37:51 

I love that. And I’m just sort of images and things when I’m doing bedtime stories with my toddler. You know, we’re doing the zoo book, or the various flies or the caterpillars or you know, and it’s so true, isn’t it their imagination and their sort of curiosity and you know, wanting to do things and you know, we shouldn’t suppress that. We should talk more about that and carry on that. So yeah, thank you for sharing that. And probably inspiring and reminding parents as well, not to sort of stop that from their, from their children. 

James Thornton 38:20 

Sorry. And one thing I just have shared that I have been having tremendous fun with. And also with some kids is there’s an app called I naturalist. I naturalist, and it’s an amazing app. It is from top universities, and National Geographic. And you download it, you take picture of anything, flower bug, whatever you take a picture of, and it will identify it for you. Or interactively, it’ll give you choices so that you, so it’s a real teaching thing, and then you learn what the thing is. And then you can upload it and it goes into a scientific database. And again, that’s an actual action. So I thought, Oh, well, this is just fun. And then I realized I was reading. Well, the things I just the orchids, I just discovered and identified and uploaded, actually went into an orchid database of scientists who are trying to protect orchids, and they need to figure out where they are. So this fun thing that you can do when you’re not walking, actually, it also empowers you give scientific value to nature, conservation, nature protection. 

Rob Hanna 39:26 

Yeah. And again, fascinating examples really, really appreciate that changes. It’s just, you know, a world of knowledge that you have, perhaps a controversial question. It’s all been plain sailing thus far, James, but let’s challenge you. Do you think firms are just getting the B Corp to use it for marketing purposes? And so when they get their B Corp status that makes them sound impressive, and that they care about X, Y and Z? And do you think firms should have to have B Corp to in order to practice the law moving forwards or are you anti B Corp altogether because you believe it’s a marketing play? 

James Thornton 40:01 

It’s a really good question. I haven’t thought deeply about B corpse at all. I mean, I’ve encountered them recently. In one context in which I was, I have been studying AI, and one of the big AI companies set itself up that way. And I’m actually persuaded that it is that is genuine, and that it has very good intentions, others that I’ve experienced, do as well. So I don’t think it’s just a marketing ploy. The always it’s a matter of how people use something, right. So there there are companies that are doing so be corpse or otherwise have another example would be a plan to become carbon neutral by 2050. Some of them are actually serious plans to become carbon neutral by 2050 or earlier. Others are pure greenwash. And so we’ve we’ve sued some of them for greenwashing. So, so it’s not black and white. I mean, it depends on it’s a good structure. And then what’s in the hearts of the people using it is what it always comes down to, you know, 

Rob Hanna 41:12 

You know, very well said, um, let’s talk about bridging gaps, cuz everyone’s talking about bridging gaps between legal technology, you know, etc, etc. How do you envisage bridging the gap between policymakers and corporations to foster a more collaborative effort in addressing climate change and protecting the natural world? 

James Thornton 41:32 

Well, here’s one thing I’ve been dreaming of recently. So naturally, I study the the economics of new technologies. And there was a, there’s been fascinating coverage in the economist in recent months about China and what it’s doing. And of course, I know a lot about that from my China office, and China has been investing heavily heavily in renewable energy. And, you know, they’re, they’re building roughly double what the rest of the world is building put together, you know, on an annual basis, quite, quite amazing. That’s bringing down the cost of renewable energy, like solar panels. And they’re investing in a major way and batteries and production cars. Now, the West is sort of wringing its hands and saying, We need to stop all of this, you know, and I think really, I mean, so Janet Yellen is the Treasury Secretary, the United States was saying recently, okay, we need to put up barriers. And of course, Trump, if he comes in, we’ll put up barriers. And I thought, okay, really. So you can look at this in two ways. Either, you can say, Well, China is taking all these steps that could actually help save the world. And we need to stop it. Or, and protect our own dirty industries. Or we could start a in a major way, you know, a virtuous competition with them, who’s going to do it better, who’s going to invent and then sell the technologies that will give our kids a clean future? And we’re behind on that, you know, in the West, Europe is better than the US. But but we’re all behind on that. And the way I see it, is that my My dream is that you have the West, get into this virtual competition with China. So then everybody gets the benefit. And winds up with a civilization in a couple of 100 years. It shouldn’t actually be that hard, right? 

Rob Hanna 43:34 

No. And I again, I like that how you sort of see competition for good in a way I always say competition is healthy. And it kind of brings out the best of, you know, if you lose one game, you want to get better to the next game to win the next game, and so forth. So I love that approach. And you know, I always say collaboration is domination, as well. And yeah, again, just really like the way that your mind works. And obviously, the great work that you do. We talked a little bit about, obviously, your book, but you know, you’ve also been the author of client Earth and the payment challenge. Now, why are you so passionate about sharing your knowledge of the environment? 

James Thornton 44:05 

Well, it’s, you know, passion is passion, right? So, you know, and I love writing. And if I was as good a musician, I’m not very good musician. I love playing the violin, but I’m not that great. If I was much better at it, I would want to play in a bar, you know, but I’m not good enough. So if you have a real passion, you just want to share it. And so I read about the environment. And I read about nature. And I want everyone to get excited about it. And I and I, I just I want to share the creativity. 

Rob Hanna 44:39 

Yeah, and I’m passionate about podcasting and bringing on inspirational guests and sharing that knowledge and wisdom. So that’s why today’s has been fabulous. And before we close with my final question, I want to ask about some of your a broader part of you as well because your role as a conservation fellow of the Zoological Society of London, what does that involve? 

James Thornton 44:58 

Well, that’s really It’s a very kind honor to receive. So a lot of the ClientEarth work, we’ve been talking about climate but a lot of the ClientEarth work has been nature saving nature protection as well. The team worked very hard to save this amazing huge biodiverse forest in Poland, the best forest in Europe that’s left. And it’s a wonderful place and lots of other things. And so very kindly Zoological Society gave me that fellowship. And I, I don’t really feel like I earned it. But I do I do love going there. And I’m also I mean, I particularly am find the rhinos. So it’s great to see the rhino. 

Rob Hanna 45:39 

Yeah, absolutely. And I think you absolutely deserve the, the honor as well. So you know, looking, we’ve talked a lot about looking at the protecting the next generations and giving them a better world and all of that. And I’m sure you would have inspired a lot of our listeners, maybe even current practicing lawyers, you might think about switching to a practice areas, it’s more fulfilling for them. What would be your advice to those looking to pursue a career in environmental law? 

James Thornton 46:02 

We’ll keep going. And an awful lot of people have said to me, you know, thanks for your encouragement, I’ve become an environmental lawyer. You know, I gave a talk in Oxford a few years ago. And then a few years later, I found a Chinese woman working in our Beijing office, who’d been at that talk, amazing, you know, and my neighbor here for Chilean neighbor, my next door neighbor, just told a story about a friend of his who’s a lawyer, a human rights lawyer in the UK. And he went took a course in Cambridge on environmental law, climate change, law and environmental law for a week. And he said, Well, you know, I was interested, that all of these cases, every case we studied was brought by an organization called Kleiner. And so my neighbor said, Hold on, the guy lives next door, you know, so that there you find out these moments when sharing your enthusiasm helps others, like get into something. But I would say keep going, if you have an interest in the environment, it’s, it’s a wonderful way to align your your values with your practice. And think more broadly about it than just work in environmental groups. Sure, work environment group, if you can, wonderful. But also, as a lawyer, you can help environmental groups, you can do pro bono work. You know, a friend of mine, who was just recently, president of the bar in Ireland, retired, and now he’s working with a bunch of young lawyers in Dublin, who are volunteering time to do environmental work, very important, you know, and then think about doing it from the inside. So an example would be I have a very smart young lawyer, who’s working with us in Singapore just left our team to go into a corporate law firm. Because he was inspired to work on green finance from inside the world of finance. And he said, is that, okay? And I said, is that, okay? It’s brilliant. You know, we need people who get the message, and then work from the inside to create the tools. So there’s so many different ways you can be an environmental lawyer. 

Rob Hanna 48:13 

Yeah. And again, throughout this discussion, you’ve offered so many examples. And it’s great because it’s easy for people to then go away and take action. So thank you so much, James. If our listeners which I’m absolutely sure they will want to learn more about your career, or indeed, client Earth, where can they go to find out more, feel free to shout out any website links or social media handles? We’ll also make sure we share them as episode for you too. 

James Thornton 48:35 

Sure. Thanks very much, Rob. I mean, I first point to the new book, ‘Nature, My Teacher’, which is just out. And it makes great summary reading. And then about the environmental law work in particular, the book ClientEarth, lays out how to create an environmental law firm how to think about law strategically in these ways, just as we’ve been talking about, that takes you great depth. And then in terms of websites, I would say though, ClientEarth website, clientearth.org takes you really deeply in is probably the best place to go. 

Rob Hanna 49:14 

Yeah, no, fantastic. Thank you ever so much. Once again, James. It’s been an absolute pleasure hosting you on the legally speaking podcast. It feels weird to say wishing you lots of continued success given everything you’ve already achieved, but I know your passion to keep going is increasingly stronger and stronger every day. So thank you so much, but from now from all of us on the show, over and out.