Can financial literacy be the key to a lawyer’s success?

This week, I’m joined by Carla Hoppe, Founder and CEO of Wealthbrite, a platform transforming how we understand money. From her journey as a corporate solicitor to leading the charge on financial education, Carla shares why building financial education and confidence is essential, not just for managing your personal finances, but for excelling in your legal career. 

Curious about how mastering money can make you a more valuable lawyer?

Don’t miss this episode, give it a listen now!

So why should you be listening in?

You can hear Rob and Carla discussing:
– Carla’s Career Transition
– The Importance of Financial Literacy
– Wealthbrite’s Mission
– Human Engagement in Financial Education
– Future Trends and Digital Innovation

Connect with Carla here

Transcript

Hey listeners, we’re super excited to share a brand new way for you to connect with the Legally Speaking podcast.

00:05

Introducing fan mail, got questions about a recent episode, thoughts on legal careers, or just want to share some super positive feedback with us?

00:13

Simply click the send us a text link in the show notes and your message will come straight to us.

00:19

We can’t wait to hear from our amazing legal community.

00:22

Thank you so much for all your support from all of us here at the team.

00:25

We really appreciate it.

00:27

You are the differentiating factor.

00:29

You now have to think about the sales behaviours and the activity that you have to do to educate the market.

00:35

Bring them along with you on this journey of discovery about why talking about money in the workplace, isn’t it a good thing?

00:42

It’s really a, you know, helpful in delivering better trusted advisors.

00:46

But really, why is law firm economics so important?

00:49

Because when people don’t understand law, foreign economics, what we start to see are behaviours that I think businesses are struggling.

00:57

But it also comes down to the extent to which money has an impact on your mental health.

01:03

On today’s Legally Speaking podcast, I’m delighted to be joined by Carla Hoppe.

01:07

Carla is the founder and CEO of Wealthbrite, a platform for providing financial skills training.

01:12

Carla was previously a corporate solicitor at PwC Legal, an associate senior associate manager and senior manager in international tax at PwC, and director of international Tax and Transaction services at EY.

01:25

Carla is now dedicated to teaching.

01:27

About the importance of financial literacy, delivering training on building financial competence and resilience.

01:33

So a very big warm welcome, Carla.

01:36

Hi, Rob, Thanks so much for having me.

01:38

Oh, it’s an absolute pleasure to have you on the show.

01:40

Big fans sat here and delighted to be doing this with you.

01:43

And before we dive into all the amazing things you’re getting up to for the legal and wider communities, we do have an ice breaker question here on the League is Being podcast, which is on the scale of one to 1010 being very real.

01:55

What would you rate the hit TV?

01:57

Suits in terms of its reality of the law, if you’ve seen it, and I’m gonna give it like somewhere between A5 and A6 because I think that whilst it does a really good job of accurately demonstrating that actually reality of most people’s day jobs is working very hard in an office location, often times very long hours and some late nights I think.

02:23

It’s definitely glamorised life asa lawyer in a way that’s often, I think, completely unrealistic.

02:29

Yeah, fair, fair comment.

02:31

I think I’ve rated it similar when people have actually flipped the script for me.

02:33

So I think we’re aligned on that.

02:35

And with that we’re gonna move swiftly on to talk all about you.

02:38

So would you mind telling our listeners a bit about your background and career journey?

02:41

Sure.

02:42

So I actually started off life as a lawyer.

02:44

So I trained as a corporate solicitor.

02:48

I used to work actually for PwC prior to it sort of.

02:53

So it used to have two parts of the business, PWBC, the accounting practise and thenPWBC Legal.

02:58

I was part of the.

02:59

Legal corporate team, but I didn’t stay pr actising as a solicitor fortoo long because I ended up moving to the US and I couldn’t pr actise as a lawyer inthe US because I didn’t get equivalents.

03:12

And so I moved into tax at the time and I remember thinking to myself on how I can tax be.

03:19

It’s basically just law applied to client flags.

03:22

So, you know, there was unlucky a little enough for me at the time in the US.

03:27

The practise in the US accounting firm.

03:30

Was very much that they recruited about 5050 folks from a legal background and those with a pure accounting background.

03:36

So I transitioned into tax and I spent the vast majority of my career working in international tax for PwC before moving on to EY.

03:46

And it was once there was at EY kind of looking forward on the path to partnership.

03:51

But I actually decided no, I think I want to do something different and and I’ve had a lot of experiences throughout my career where I.

04:00

Involved in outreach programmes, I guess what you would call today, fishing mobility programmes, supporting workplace readiness schemes for young people from more disadvantaged backgrounds.

04:12

And I guess as part of that programme I’ve been, when I started getting exposed to the massive financial literacy gap that exists in our system.

04:21

And I’d actually then gone on to create some programmes of learning for young people to teach them about finances and tax.

04:29

And that’s really sparked a fire in me and I just kind of got to the stage of my career where I thought I’m going to regret this if I don’t take a chance and try and do something different.

04:38

Wild.

04:39

A little bit crazy, yes.

04:41

But actually I just thought, you know what, I need to make this decision now because if I.

04:46

Did that end up accepting and get accepted into the partnership?

04:50

I just knew that, you know, that that was a, that was a role that would require 100% ofme and I wouldn’t have the opportunity to do this other thing.

04:58

So yes, took a leap of faith and here I am three years later.

05:03

It’s a great journey and we’re going to go and talk to that.

05:05

I’m probably going to butcher a quote I read recently around, you know, you know, wild ideas are wild, but don’t try and be wild enough to get people to understand them.

05:13

IE if you have this crazy idea, you’ve got the vision, you’ve got the mission and absolutely you go all in and and do it and you’re doing it right.

05:19

So let’s talk about the present, your CEO and founder of Wealthbright.

05:23

Let’s say we’re fans here at leagues being podcast.

05:25

I think you’ve done a tremendous job.

05:26

But for those who maybe new to Wealthbright, what is it and what inspired you further to really lean into this on the backdrop of what you just said?

05:34

Yeah, sure.

05:35

So I guess like if I was just summing up in a nutshell, I’d say like whilst bite we we kind of we we want to be and we believe we are to some extent already the sort of go to provider for the legal sector on financial well-being support for employees and specifically for those at the start of their career.

05:52

So I guess, you know, the mission at Wealthbrite is really about closing the financial literacy gap.

05:58

But, and I, and I say that because that is the starting point, but actually really this is about doing two things.

06:04

It’s on the one hand about bringing the accretive value to firms of having a more financially literate workforce.

06:12

Because if you understand how many in finance work, not only are you better at, you know, managing yourself better in terms of your personal finances.

06:21

And that means.

06:22

Things like making your money go further, ensuring that you’re investing in your pension, but also reducing stress that shows up in the workplace.

06:29

So that’s one thing.

06:31

But actually, you know, there’s a flip side to for businesses, and I think this is like going to be increasingly important as we move into next year in terms of how we communicate to businesses.

06:41

It’s also about mitigating against the risks of poor financial behaviours and and damaging financial problems.

06:49

And that’s everything from sort of workplace stress that.

06:52

Hacks on just like how you show up and your level of productivity.

06:56

This worst extreme levels is actually goes to some of the like instances of which there has been many of people who maybe misappropriate company funds because they’ve got gambling addictions or problems or problem debt that they’re trying to solve in some way and they actually end up using.

07:13

You know, I’ve spoken to businesses this year about people have used company credit cards because they’ve run out of money and they haven’t been able to pay them off so.

07:21

This for me is about.

07:22

Aiding companies to have taken appropriate measures and mitigating the risks of those types of events happening in their workforce.

07:32

And how we do that is of course training.

07:34

We provide resources and training for people to understand how to essentially build positive financial behaviour so that they can also prevent this crisis from happening.

07:47

Yeah.

07:47

And that leads nicely on to what I was going to ask you next in terms of going deeper on what you just shared on the training, because I think it.

07:52

I don’t know how you’ve broken it down.

07:54

So would you mind telling us more about the programmes you offer?

07:57

I believe you have Rainmaker Wealth Builder and resources programme.

08:00

So just talk us through a little bit about those.

08:03

Yeah, so I guess like where we started when we built the business and I guess our core offering in the market is around supporting what I described as good financial foundations.

08:14

And we kind of named that our wealth builder programme this year.

08:17

But it it, it essentially is reduced into a series of training.

08:22

Sessions which, and we do offer a range of different models.

08:27

So actually a lot of law firms like to have us come and deliver these sessions in person.

08:33

Because what we found is that yes, we do have a digital option, but for a lot of lawyers, they’re incredibly busy.

08:40

They have a lot of things in their To Do List.

08:42

And therefore to actually kind of breakthrough the noise and get them to pay attention and absorb the information, actually sometimes you just have to get in front of them in real life, right?

08:52

So and what we do is we kind of have a framework of learning that starts with the basics of budgeting, saving, investing.

09:02

We also teach people about how to read a pay slip, how to understand how tax works, how to understand how their pension works.

09:09

And the emphasis here is all about going back to basics because we know that financial literacy in the UK is quite poor.

09:18

We’re not really tortured as a matter of standard practise in .

09:21

schoolsAnd, and of course, and this is really important to me, is that actually depending on where you grew up?

09:28

Who you grow up with, you may not have been exposed to that kind of learning in the home.

09:34

Sorry.

09:34

So we kind of think it’s important that workplaces do offer this, largely because actually they’re the ones that are providing people with the income that sets the benchmark for their financial well-being.

09:48

And it’s where you get exposed to a lot of financial instruments that many people, you know, coming out of school will have never heard about before, you know?

09:58

And pensions are very brand new to people at the start of their career and at the moment.

10:04

There’s not a lot of proactive guidance for people around, you know, actually, how do I make the smart decision here, you know, on my 20s, What do I know about how much I should invest in my pension?

10:16

Why does it matter?

10:17

Why should I be thinking about retirement when I’m in my 20s?

10:20

This isn’t present for me.

10:21

And so we kind of disrupt this kind of regular pattern by bringing our training and kind of educating people about like, why actually, yes, it’s important that you start thinking about this now, not just at a later date.

10:34

It’s, it’s so true and it’s one of my earlier regrets really even, you know, as little as a pound in, in the right shares or, or something, whatever it might be, that lack of education.

10:41

And that’s why I love what you’re doing.

10:43

And you’re right, you know, as you start your career, you’re not thinking at the end of the crib, but you should be.

10:47

And you know, you’re working tirelessly.

10:48

You’re working very hard in your profession.

10:50

Then what you’re accruing.

10:51

Why not make that work hard for you along the way?

10:53

So absolutely love that your sort of mindset and view.

10:57

This is a hard one because I think we’re living in an exceptionally fast moving space, even when it comes to finances, you know, there are some.

11:04

Ways to to go about sort of building wealth, but what are some of the exciting trends you see in financial education and how do you see wealth bright potentially evolving and actually keeping up with any trends within that?

11:15

Yeah, it’s an interesting one because I guess I want to come back to this reality that we’ve kind of experienced as a, as a training provider and as a as a kind of support system to businesses is that actually I think we’ve been through a period of.

11:30

Hyper focus and kind of influx of digital offerings in our daily lives.

11:36

In our work lives, so everyone is kind of being flooded with, you know, a flurry of AI to tech tools, apps, you know, you name it, you can get it online.

11:47

And what I’ve been discovering over the last week, we’ve been in existence for three years, trading Philly for two years, 2 1/2 yers anow.

11:57

And actually, I think I am increasingly aware of how much people crave a human experience.

12:04

And they crave the human engagement.

12:07

And so actually I kind of think that whilst it kind of maybe pushes against some of the trends that are out there, I think actually our business.

12:16

Some of the USPS that we bring to the table is actually delivering real people who talk like real normal human beings in an environment, creating safe spaces where people can ask the questions that they actually may be too afraid to ask in other contexts.

12:31

And that’s that’s what makes what we do really magical.

12:34

It’s creating those environments where it’s OK to say, especially as a lawyer, because lawyers are trained to be experts in the room, to have the answers, to be the trusted advisor.

12:46

Really important to create a culture and an environment when we’re talking about money and finances to say it’s OK to not know and it’s OK to put your hand up and ask for explanation and for expansion on the topic and the issues and sort of to trade stories about, you know, maybe what I thought or what I’ve learned or, you know, those types of experiences.

13:07

So I think actually we will probably spend an awful lot more time over the next five years developing.

13:14

Our expertise in storytelling.

13:17

Bringing stories to life.

13:18

And we may use digital means to deliver that.

13:20

So whether that’s podcast or video, yeah, we’ll do all of that.

13:24

The one area I am exploring and I, I haven’t quite figured out how it will come together is I, I do think that kind of giving people different ways to kind of ask that question.

13:36

Ask that.

13:37

There’s no silly questions really.

13:39

But let’s use that phrase.

13:40

Ask the silly question, right?

13:42

That I think there is some scope and potential for kind of more tech advanced opportunity.

13:48

So what do I mean by that?

13:50

I have kind of an idea in my mind that perhaps we will.

13:53

Offer people some form of like, you know, maybe it’s AI or some other kind of digital coach that you can kind of ask questions to, you know, and, and because of course everybody has a mobile phone in their hand most times, you know, perhaps that’s the offering that’s delivered through WhatsApp or some other, you know, easy digital communication.

14:15

And I think the challenge in my bed of the world is that.

14:20

You know, we, we are in the business of guidance and education.

14:22

We don’t offer regulated advice.

14:24

And of course, anything that catches near finances comes with a lot of a lot of regulatory environment.

14:30

So there is a dynamic or a hurdle to be overcome, which is how do you prove an evidence that what you’re doing doesn’t inadvertently cross the red line there?

14:41

That being said, and without kind of, you know, going too far into naming names, I think actually there’s this is where I think we do have to try and move with the times because.

14:53

Already I know that a lot of young people in law we we do an annual financial well-being in law review.

14:58

Release the report every year and actually we know that an awful lot of young people, like 30% of young people said that at the moment.

15:07

We asked them, where do you go for financial guidance today?

15:10

Most people say friends, family, I don’t have anyone or social media.

15:16

And I think the social media side of that equation can, you know, on the one hand there are positive role models out there, but actually, unfortunately there’s an awful lot of stuff that just isn’t good guidance out in the Internet, so.

15:29

I think it kind of pushes me to want to do something that offers like something better in the digital space, but I don’t know where that will actually end up now in the next 5 years here.

15:39

You never know.

15:40

I think it’s super exciting times.

15:43

And, you know, ultimately I, you know, we’ve had people come on the show that have been building, you know, similar products for their verticals in terms of, you know, almost like an AI coach and your product in your pocket.

15:51

And I can see that for wealth, you know, wealth creation.

15:54

And I, I encourage listeners that if you’re not leaning very heavily into AI.

15:58

You know, talking to AIS, learning about how these work, then then do it because that is absolutely where the front end service offerings are gonna be coming in the New Year’s.

16:06

And absolutely, like you said, you’re, you’re already thinking about that from your business because that’s where people will be, will be met.

16:10

Of course, there’s lots of stringent things and due diligence.

16:13

And I always say due diligence is very important you need to do, but I, I can absolutely see that happening.

16:19

You’ve been successful with what you’ve done with well, bright three years in.

16:23

It’s bloody hard doing a business and I don’t think we maybe talk enough about.

16:28

Goodness.

16:29

And I know you’re very authentic as a leader and you’ve had huge successes, but I’m sure you’ve had some challenges and building wealth right along the way.

16:35

Would you like to tell us a bit about your entrepreneurial journey?

16:38

The the good, the bad, and maybe some of the ugly?

16:40

Sure.

16:40

And yeah, I guess.

16:42

Well, let’s start with, I guess let’s start with where it all began because I think something that’s not often spoken about and, and I think it’s an important point to make is that actually it’s quite a privilege to go all in to your business, right.

16:55

So actually when I started welfare.

16:58

Came up with the idea but I was actually working part time so I was ahead of tax at a AI tech company for Graph Core and I was working for them three days a week whilst I was building the idea of wealth first.

17:12

So this didn’t so that I didn’t just suddenly wake up one day and decide yes, I’m going to start a company and here I am and let’s go right.

17:18

It was a sort of very iterative process and one that was bootstrapped for, you know, the first couple of years.

17:24

And it was, yes, it was tough.

17:26

Of course you have.

17:27

I think actually the reality of turning an idea into reality is much harder than most people in real life.

17:35

Great ideas like there, but actually making it happen is an entirely different thing.

17:42

I think, you know, and again, something I’ve learned along the way and I think I continue to hone my skills in this space is that I realised that, youknow, obviously as a founder, but you’re in sale of mood, right?

17:54

You become a salesperson.

17:57

And actually it’s an interesting concept because if you’ve come from a professional services world as I have, which I think a lot of people don’t realise is that.

18:05

Destination business.

18:07

So people come to you because they have a problem and they know that you have the qualifications to solve it.

18:12

So the sales behaviours that youdisplay in like a law firm were a BIG4 accounting practises. You’re sellingyou as the trusted advisor.

18:22

You’re selling why I am better personally to work alongside you than a another advisor because the reality of it is that most of the competition you have, well, they can all do roughly the same thing at roughly the same price, right?

18:34

So you are the differentiating factor now.

18:37

Flip that on completely on his head now, in a world like mine now as a startup founder, selling a solution to a problem that many law firms don’t even know they have right, is financial well-being on your radar?

18:52

You know, when I started Wealthy, I remember approaching Law Care, the mental health charity in the legal sector, and I spoke to the CEO, Elizabeth, and I remember she said to me afterwards, you know, when Carla came along to talk to me about the link between money and mental health.

19:07

This wasn’t even on my radar, you know, and we weren’t talking about it.

19:11

It wasn’t sort of a thing.

19:13

So you now then have to think about like the sales behaviours and the activity that you have to do to to educate the market.

19:20

Bring them along with you on this journey of discovery about why talking about money in the workplace, isn’t it a good thing?

19:27

It’s really, you know, helpful in delivering better trusted advisors because if they understand how the economy works, how finances work, you can better spot opportunities.

19:36

Clients have better quality negotiations on fees, all these things, right?

19:41

That’s been a real journey of discovery for me is something that I think is, you know, as a founder, I think, or is, you know, as a founder.

19:48

I’ve had to learn to accept that.

19:49

Also I’m not very good at some things and therefore I have to have some personal development.

19:54

So that’s interesting.

19:56

I have the joy and the pleasure of fundraising this year, which.

20:02

Was quite an experience.

20:04

I think people say it’s hard, yes it is.

20:07

But you know, I think that what I realised.

20:11

This is something I’ve shared with a lot of people, particularly those at the start of their careers.

20:16

The power of your network.

20:20

You know, something I very much learned at an early age, I think even just for my parents, it was just the fact that like being easy to work alongside was a very important like attribute to have.

20:35

And being able to speak to people regardless of their grade or their job with a variant also a very important part of.

20:44

I hate the phrase personal brand, but it’s just like being a good human, you know?

20:49

Yeah.

20:49

And actually, you know, it’s paid dividends for me in the long run.

20:54

And people might be interested to know that, you know, I raised from angels.

20:59

Some people who are angels in my business were former bosses from old employers.

21:06

I actually have somebody who’s a client of mine from when I was a manager is now an investor in my business.

21:13

I can tell you this, when I met that individual as a manager, never in a million years could I imagine that one day they might invest in my business.

21:21

And that was by number means a transaction that was even on my radar.

21:24

And I didn’t approach the relationship transactionally thinking what can I get and what can they get from me?

21:29

It was just the fact that I was genuinely interested in what they were doing and, and, and sort of built relationships and, and also continue to have relationships with them.

21:38

So I think that’s a, this is something I think is important for people to kind of.

21:42

The longevity of relationships can kind of really have power and reappear much later down the line in your brain.

21:50

As a founder, I have found it to be actually really amazing to see some of these relationships revive and come to life in a different context.

21:58

Yeah.

21:59

I mean, there’s so many things there that I talk a lot about whenever I do speaking that I just want to kind of re highlight.

22:03

So I’m just nodding here like a little dog, actually.

22:06

Yes, Carla.

22:07

Yes, Carla, because you’re right.

22:08

I always say contacts are good, but relationships pay and you need to sprinkle them with kindness and value out throughout.

22:13

Go deep and nurture them.

22:14

And I think that really works.

22:15

And you know, to your point around networking, I always talk about being working war maybe who do you know who can introduce you to someone you don’t know?

22:20

And you go through great examples there of that.

22:23

And then to your, you know, stories.

22:25

I love that there’s a kind of message there because again, facts tell stories tell, you know, the way you can story tell, communicate, get your brand out there.

22:32

Love it.

22:32

And the big point, which I absolutely agree, all ideas go to the graveyard without action, right?

22:38

And the fact that you’re putting action on these ideas and implementing them.

22:41

And when you’re talking about being AI first.

22:43

In the new year, all of these things you’re you’re looking to where the puck is going.

22:45

I think it’s super exciting and yeah, for people listening when they hear the world’s sales.

22:49

If you don’t like that word sales, just switch it with serving because good people who are good at sales are basically serving and providing a value add or something of relevance to them.

22:56

Love it.

22:56

Let’s talk about financial literacy because there’s no such thing as a silly question on League of podcasts as well.

23:01

And some people might be thinking what on earth is financial literacy?

23:04

Apparently the UK economy, poor financial literacy costs nearly 20 billion annually.

23:10

So what is financial literacy and why is.

23:13

Let’s see a critical skill for lawyers today.

23:16

Great question Let’s start with busting a couple of myths.

23:19

Financial literacy does not necessarily mean you’re excellent at math.

23:22

So for any of the lawyers out there thinking, oh gold, this is, you know, the drug of math conversation.

23:28

It’s not that financial literacy just merely means kind of having a good appreciation of the concept of money, how money works, generally speaking.

23:39

So that’s everything from.

23:41

Do you, do you understand how general terms, how the economy works?

23:45

Do you appreciate and understand how things like interest rates and inflation kind of operate and work and what the implications are?

23:52

It also means a little bit about you on an individual level, understanding how to manage your money So day-to-day, are you able to like cover your costs, pay your bills on time and, you know, are you falling behind on debts or are you able to keep up with them And, and I guess like.

24:10

People may not realise this, butactually in the UK we have a financial well-being strategy and so actually what it classifieds is good quality financial well-being.

24:19

Is having the requisite level of understanding, which is the literacy element, but that not only can you manage your money, but that you can also plan through your financial future that you know includes everything from making a plan, having a plan, setting some goals, and then taking action to deliver on that plan.

24:38

But it also comes down to the extent to which money has an impact on your mental health.

24:44

So when we talk about someone having positive financial well-being, it would there would be indicators that they are not.

24:50

Struggling with significant levels of financially driven stress or anxiety or depression or any any other mental health implications.

24:58

So that’s what it is.

25:00

You mentioned this kind of number of £20 billion annually.

25:03

People might be thinking, well where on earth does that come from?

25:06

Actually that that is a statistic born artist and research that the CBI economics team did and they looked at actually, well, how does poor financial literacy show up in the workforce?

25:19

And they looked at instances of absence, long term sick leave and lower productivity brought about by stress and anxiety.

25:27

And that 20 billion was the number that they concluded was a minimum, the cost of having financially illiterate workforce.

25:36

So I always say, you know, people, I’ve heard people say this to me.

25:41

You know what it’s called personal finances for a reason.

25:44

It’s a personal matter.

25:45

And I sort of go, well, you know, the reality is, you know.

25:49

You know, COVID taught us nothing Is that the human, the person that we are at home shows up at work.

25:56

So, you know, it’s kind of like these lines have become blurred increasingly so in the modern workforce.

26:03

Like, you know, it’s not the case that you have a work version of you and a home version of you, that those two are the same people.

26:11

And as I said, for me, this is about it’s not just about like being nice to your people and doing something that.

26:19

Avid value benefit fantastic.

26:22

If if you are the type of employer that wants to stand out from the crowd is creating a, you know, world class workplace culture, then I and I know some of those and yes, they’re doing, they’re doing that piece around holistic well-being.

26:36

What are our benefits that we offer our people?

26:38

What is the sort of above and beyond training that we want to make available to our people?

26:43

But if you are sitting in a in a firm for for whom maybe they don’t have that same people centred culture.

26:49

We’ll then think about it on the other side of the spectrum.

26:52

I should cost risk and revenue loss that you kind of scupper when actually poor financial literacy causes poor financial decisions that have a consequence and kind of an impact on your business.

27:07

And yeah, I’ll give you a real life example.

27:09

You know, there was a trainee solicitor here in the UK who’s actually gaoled last year for.

27:15

Funding a gambling addiction and did that by fraudulently redirecting client money into their personal bank account.

27:23

Directly taking from client comes and unfortunately I’ve been doing some research on this about, you know, instances of gambling addiction particularly and how it is impacting on people’s behaviours of work.

27:36

And I’ve been peeling back the onion on this and looking at the news stories.

27:39

And of course the news stories are just the tip of the iceberg, right?

27:43

And actually this is a much bigger problem than I think a lot of people are really kind of.

27:48

Confessing to I read earlier that something like 1.3 million people are in the UK or.

27:55

Are suffering with problem gambling and so you know reality is as it is that probably we all know someone who either has a problem gambling a gambling problem or we know someone who knows someone in fact that is that is a strong likelihood.

28:16

So for me this is about if firms want to take a very kind of.

28:21

Risk based approach to the problems that literacy is about mitigating the chances.

28:28

Of the sort of catastrophic events happening in their workforce.

28:31

And yeah, unfortunately, law is not immune from these same problems that, you know, everyone else in the in the world has as well.

28:38

Today’s episode is brought to you by Cleo, the all-in-one legal practise management software designed to help solicitors like you save time, stay organised and deliveroutstanding client experience.

28:49

Clio is trusted by thousands of legal professionals worldwide, offering a user friendly interface, seamless time recording, automated billing and secure cloud.

28:57

So you can manage your practise from anywhere with Clear.

29:01

You’ll get award-winning support available 24 five by live chat, phone and e-mail, so help is always there when you need it most.

29:09

It’s no wonder Clio consistently receives 5 star ratings for its ease of use and top notch service.

29:15

If you’re ready to experience a better way to manage your practise.

29:18

Visit clio.com/uk.

29:20

to learn more and see why Clio continues to be the go to choice for solicitors across the UK.

29:27

Now back to the show.

29:28

Thank you for highlighting some really, you know, important examples there.

29:32

I just wanted to go back to the point that you said about, you know, we’re, we’re humans because, you know, I don’t really get on with the expression work life balance.

29:39

You know, it’s, it’s life and it’s choices we make.

29:41

You know, I could have my sick daughter that’s been up all night and then expecting me to go and be 110% and this sort of trusted advisor on it. It’s just not possible.

29:45

really apprecAnd so I think understanding human behaviour and and sort of modern working is, is super important.

29:49

Soiate you, you flagging that.

29:56

OK, let’s talk a little bit about law firm.

29:59

Economics a little bit deeper, because why does understanding law firm economics make you a valuable member of a particularly high performing team?

30:08

I’m going to say something that we find a bit cheeky, but you know, I think sometimes people are almost surprised by the notion that when they go to work every day, their day job is not actually, I mean, of course their day job is to be a lawyer, but your day job is actually to make money for the company that you work for.

30:25

You know, that’s the bottom line here.

30:27

That’s what we all do.

30:27

If you’re for a for profit, yeah.

30:30

Not a chair.

30:32

Let’s let’s put that caveat entry.

30:35

But so, so, you know, I always think it’s kind of interesting to me that actually a lot of people, particularly again, at the start of their careers, are, are not that confident in being able to ask the question, well, how does my business make money, right?

30:51

And, and, and, and maybe the second question they should be asking, or at least should be presented to them is how do we make money?

30:58

And therefore, what is your role?

31:01

In supporting us to make money, right?

31:05

And that’s why for me actually when we think about financial literacy, yes, is the personal financial side of it, which is our wealth building programme.

31:13

But the Rainmaker programme that you mentioned earlier, that’s our kind of corollary programme.

31:18

This is about helping people understand the economics of doing business.

31:23

And you know what this isn’t about is turning everybody into little mini accountants, right?

31:28

I’m not expecting everybody to be able to kind of like knock up a set of accounts or or or even.

31:35

Feel like they have to be looking at accounts all of the time.

31:38

I actually personally think that’s a very good practise that you should be reading the accounts of your clients because the accounts are telling a very interesting story about the performances of businesses.

31:51

But really, why is law firm economics important?

31:54

Because again, when people don’t understand law firm economics, what we start to see are behaviours that I think businesses are struggling with, which let me give you some examples.

32:05

So this year I’ve had a number of law firms come to me to say.

32:10

Well, different things.

32:11

There are law firms out there who are struggling with cash flow management because actually the debtor days that they have.

32:19

So the number of days an invoice remains unpaid is extremely long.

32:23

Why is that?

32:24

Well, because unfortunately, there are some still in the profession who would say that managing the billing side of the equation isn’t their job.

32:33

It’s someone else’s job, right?

32:35

When an actual fact, if you’re the person that owns the client relationship, you should be the person.

32:40

Having the conversation about, you know, this is how much we spent maybe it’s under maybe it’s over what we originally quoted.

32:47

Here’s the justification for the bill that we’re sending you Hey, we’ve sent you a bill Oh, please can you check, you know, actually pay the bill.

32:54

And this is a practise that ifI compare and contrast my own experience with is is kind of different in the big 4, right Because in the big four from day one, you’re responsible for analysing WIP ona code.

33:06

It is drilled into you about timesheet management, which I.

33:10

It will be in law firms as well.

33:12

But then actually we had to do the invoices ourselves.

33:15

We had to send it out.

33:17

And actually I found that as I progressed through my career, that exposure to the financial conversation of the work that we did was something that actually did enable me to be a better advisor.

33:29

So I’ll give you again a real example from my own experiences.

33:32

I was involved in a very high profile transaction moving.

33:38

A well known UK brand, they had wanted to move their headquarters overseas.

33:42

And you know, at the time I had a very good relationship with my key client contact.

33:47

But what happened was there is lots of things that came out of the woodwork as we started to unpeel like what would this transaction involved?

33:53

And it meant that we had made a quote and the quote had a range, but we were we were expecting to go way over that range.

34:02

And and we had to have conversations and I had to be able to sit down with my client contact and say to them, OK, here’s what happened.

34:11

I’ve kept you in the loop.

34:12

This is, it’s all about communication, right?

34:14

It’s communication skills, keeping them in the loop, explaining what was going on.

34:17

And then being able to put together a business case that we could take to the audit committee and actually stand up in front of senior leaders within the business and explain This is why it’s going to cost more than we initially thought.

34:28

And I think.

34:29

You know, I think if I hadn’t been so comfortable talking about money, I would have really struggled to have that conversation effectively.

34:41

And I have seen that behaviour in other colleagues, right?

34:44

Folks who maybe just never want to talk about money, whether it’s personally or in work.

34:50

They they’ve really, they’ve shield away from the difficult conversations.

34:55

And sometimes that might mean they just choose it all doesn’t really matter.

34:59

We don’t really want to get into difficult conversation, right?

35:03

And and all of that, of course has a trickle down effect on the performance of the law firm.

35:07

And in today’s environment, hyper competitive landscape in law, you know, actually there’s an increasing emphasis on ensuring healthy profit margin in law firms.

35:19

And that means everybody from senior leader all the way down to training and apprentices have to think about what impact are they having on the bottom line.

35:28

And yeah, so that’s.

35:29

For us, again, it’s not about turning everybody into an army of accountants, but it’s about telling people to, first of all, understand the mathematics of making money.

35:40

And then secondly, what are the behaviours that you can be adopting today that means you’re going to have a positive impact on that.

35:46

Yeah.

35:47

And like you say, you slowly but surely become a real trusted advisor with the people that you’re working in and around.

35:53

And I think that’s where a lot of people should aspire to be.

35:55

And, and when you’ve got that cracked and you’re operating at that level, with that level of human.

35:59

Which is why you can retain, you get referrals, you get all of these amazing things and love it.

36:04

OK, let’s talk about some misconceptions ’cause I know there’s loads.

36:07

So let’s talk about what I say.

36:08

Maybe the the biggest misconception people have about managing their personal finances.

36:14

Yeah, I think the biggest one for me is that there’s a maybe a misconception that just if you earn more that you’ll be better at managing money or more financially.

36:24

Well, actually the data doesn’t support that at all.

36:28

So I obviously we have data at welfare where we survey.

36:33

Lawyers across the full kind of spectrum of grades and obviously with that comes data on income and actually there’s really not a lot of evidence that simply having more money makes you better at doing some of the basics of managing money so let me give you some really clear examples again, you know one of the metrics that we use in our.

36:59

Annual survey is a question that says how readily can you afford to pay?

37:06

An unexpected cost of 850 lbs without relying on borrowing or credit.

37:12

Now this is a metric that actually we spoke with the Office of National Statistics.

37:17

We borrowed their indices because why?

37:19

Because we can then benchmark against national averages.

37:22

Right now, at present in the United Kingdom, the national average is at about 40% of people say no, I can’t afford that in law.

37:31

This year 2020, 436% of all lawyers said they could not afford.

37:36

Effective expense without borrowing credit and that increased to 42% amongstjunior lawyers so already we see that lawyers kind of nearly on par with the national average but of course then you dig into income profiles of course the national average wage in the UK is about £36,000.

37:55

The you know and what we can do with the ONS data is we can drill into how what’s the percentage of people that say they can’t afford that expense depending on income profiles and once you cross the.

38:06

1000 LB barrier, the percentage of the national level dropped to about 10% of people who say they don’t have that 850 lbs ofcash savings.

38:15

But unfortunately in law it’s much, much higher.

38:18

And we’re looking at on average across each income profile, it’s almost about double the average.

38:25

So we’re seeing, you know, lawyers being almost twice as likely to say that they do not have that cash buffer buffer to fall back on and they’re relying on borrowing credit and you go, well, hang on.

38:36

And how can this be happening?

38:37

We’ve got, you know, well published data that says, you know, even newly qualified on over £150,000, but how is it that they don’t have less than 1000 lbs in cash savings?

38:44

And so this is sort of one of the number of one of the metrics, just as an example, to show that actually this this misconception that just having more makes you better at what you do. Actually, our data would show that having more sometimes causes an increased level of stress andanxiety because people.

39:07

Overwhelmed by the responsibility of managing money without having had proper guidance.

39:13

And we ask every year about people who feel like having more causes them to spend beyond their means.

39:20

And actually, yes, 60% of lawyers say yes, they feel the need to spend beyond their means to keep up with a certain lifestyle and expectation.

39:29

And so actually, sometimes having more can almost compound the problems when people don’t have a safe space to turn to for guidance.

39:37

Yeah.

39:38

And it’s so true.

39:39

And I’ve had friends that have been, you know, financial advisors and everything else, and they talk.

39:43

About lifestyle creep yeah you know in in terms of you go through this next banding OK right maybe you then get that bigger house or maybe you then get that and you know a mental sent to me very very very early on probably one of the best piece of advice he said 3 words to me Rob resist resist resist and until you know you understand that and what that means you know you can be super powerful OK you have done loads this year and you’ve been speaking and getting out and about legal geek being one of them obviously huge event and your picture is about building financial Ackman in your people.

40:13

Business imperative.

40:15

I get my words out.

40:15

The cost of inaction is a price no law firm should be paid today and the legal sector catching up with those using winning methodology.

40:23

So tell us more about the these topics and.

40:27

Yeah.

40:27

How did you find your experience at Legal Geek?

40:29

Yeah, well, I love speaking at Legal Geek, so it’s my second time being there and I think it’s just a great place to.

40:38

The thing I love about it is the opportunity to speak to a bunch of people who have all showed up.

40:42

Ostensibly to learn about the latest tech and kind of advances in law.

40:47

And for me, and there’s a few others that do something similar, but like for me to be in and amongst the mix to say, actually, you can have all the tech in the world, but if the people behind the tech aren’t operating at full capacity, well, it’s kind of a highway to nothing, right?

41:04

Because if we don’t have people kind of operating at, at, at, you know, as I said, full capacity, it just doesn’t happen really.

41:11

So you know what?

41:13

Talking about today or today, legal geeks, sorry, talent, you’re in being one of the kind of markers and the cost of inaction when it comes to financial issues.

41:24

So I was really talking about the fact that actually there’s a significant level of financial stress in the legal system.

41:31

So our data shows like 89% of those who are nearly qualified up to two years are struggling with money worries on a regular basis and regular basis in this instance means.

41:42

They’re not worrying about money every day, very often or often.

41:47

So significant levels of financial worry.

41:51

And I was explaining to those in the room that actually, you know, trends, historical trends in the legal sector show that that there’s actually very high turnover rates, like something like 16 to 20%.

42:04

And there is separate data out there that shows if you are financially stressed you are 2.2 times more likely to move jobs.

42:12

So my prediction for this sector was like, if firms continue to neglect financial well-being in their employee base, we project an increase in junior lawyer attrition over the next five years driven by financial stress in the system.

42:28

Now, you know, again, I, I think if I pause for a moment, I said there will be some firms that hear that statistic and worry.

42:38

And do you think, gosh, it’s already costing me so much?

42:42

To hire, train and retain right?

42:45

Do I really want to?

42:48

You know, inadvertently aggravate that system by choosing not to provide support in this space.

42:54

And there will be firms that say, yes, but we’re already doing something right.

42:58

We’ve got, we’ve got, we’ve got our, we’ve got our self storage.

43:01

And unfortunately for these firms, I’m, I’m, I’m going to tell you another statistic, like over 70% of the lawyers that we surveyed this year told us that they either know or don’t know to the question, does your firm currently provide financial welding support?

43:16

So the vast majority of lawyers are unaware.

43:20

Of any existing support in their firm, and to me that demonstrates that what’s being done right now isn’t cutting through.

43:27

So a lot of what people have done today is have a maybe a hub of written resources that people can access and get information on.

43:39

And you know, I started off in this conversation telling you how even in our environment, yes, we have a digital learning programme, but we know how hard it is to get people who are already spending all day in front of a screen.

43:53

To read another e-mail or log on to watch another online learning course, right?

43:58

So, you know, the reality of it is that a lot of maybe the methodologies that firms have used up until now to provide in this space just haven’t been cutting through.

44:07

People want something that’s more engaging the human experience and interactive.

44:12

So I think that’s a call to action from my side for firms like say, like you might think you’re doing it and some extent you maybe have been doing something, but I think we’re we’re we’re hearing loud and clear from folks that.

44:26

That what’s being done today just isn’t.

44:28

Kind of.

44:29

Isn’t really fulfilling their needs and so we need to look again at the models being offered and and and try and find consider ways of bringing to life the stories around money and finance in a way that’s kind of going to grab people’s attention.

44:44

You know I I also sit on the board of a company I’m investing called Hector, which is all around learning and development.

44:49

And it’s a suspect platform, but it’s about interactive learning and it’s trying to kind of, you know, close that gap into the people who aren’t getting access to maybe learning and development to reduce retention attrition, all the things that you’ve been talking about and it’s so true that.

44:59

You know, if you can get people’s attention through, you know what the way people want it from a creative perspective, I think it’d be super powerful.

45:05

Obviously what you’re doing with World bright and your future plans and with AI integration as well.

45:09

I think it’s super exciting.

45:10

One final question before we, we look to close today, because I really enjoyed Carlo, all your insights and it’s about LinkedIn.

45:16

You know, we’re both active there and you’ve been sharing your experiences of financial literacy and in a, in a, in a post you shared how you watched your parents experience with money.

45:25

So you became a lawyer.

45:26

So since then, what have you learned about money?

45:29

And how has it influenced your values?

45:31

Oh yeah.

45:32

Gosh.

45:32

So I guess yes, I’m first generation professional.

45:35

So I guess I didn’t, I grew up in an environment where my parents are sort of multi heritage.

45:42

So Asian family on my mom’s side.

45:44

And I guess, you know, folks may be listening will resonate with this.

45:48

But like, I think there is an emphasis that like getting a good job, like becoming a lawyer was a as a natural next step for a highly ambitious set of parents who were like, you’re going to go on and do great things and.

45:59

And education was always regarded as the key to unlocking that future potential, Something I really learned along the way.

46:06

And again, something we kind of try and embed into our learning practises at Wealthbriteis to say, you know, simply existing in a high income learning environment isn’t going to translate necessarily into wealth generation without something else helping you overcome the learning gap around finances and money.

46:29

So, you know, again, let me just sort of explain up and some examples.

46:33

And when I joined the profession, I felt very kind of, I felt a lot like an outsider at the start of my career because I came with this broad Northern Irish accent.

46:45

And I kind of like I didn’t really necessarily look or sound like a lot of the other people that I worked with.

46:51

And when it came to picking things like understanding, investing in my attention or what I was getting in terms of pay or what to do with it.

46:59

Didn’t really know where to start and, but to be honest, there was no way in hell I was going to ask people in work because I didn’t want to give them an excuse for thinking that I was already more different than I felt.

47:09

Now, I don’t actually know that anybody really regarded me that in that way, but let’s just say for a moment that was something I felt.

47:17

So I think for a lot of firms, they’re thinking about supporting the progression of socially mobile and diverse talent.

47:24

I think really recognising that your lived experiences with money.

47:29

Maybe markedly different depending on how you grew up is a really good first step.

47:33

And so I think it’s, it’s important to kind of provide resources for everyone, but particularly with the that group of talent in mind.

47:42

But I even think then, so that got me, maybe I had to learn how to manage money, just manage the income I was getting.

47:48

Great.

47:49

That’s the first hurdle.

47:50

As I said, moving from high income into wealth generation is a totally different ball game.

47:56

That’s then now you need to understand investing, you need to understand property, you need to understand, you know, Ices and all these other tools and, and, and tax efficient options that are out there.

48:05

And again, I just didn’t come from a background.

48:08

Where any of that had been talked about growing up, but the word investment did not exist in my family environment and I’ve had to learn by doing and learn by getting lucky along the way, meeting people.

48:20

And I suppose the mission of Welsh right is to again prevent that from being true for next generation.

48:26

Like I think the workplace has an incredible opportunity to be a powerful.

48:33

Powerful provider in some senses for people in this space and and again as a combative like.

48:40

Your employer is the place that kind of introduces you to a lot of these tools and these mechanisms.

48:45

So I think it’s kind of almost in my mind, I would go so far as to say like almost incumbent upon them to ensure that people are really utilising them to the fullest extent.

48:55

And if no other reason for the fact that employers have spent an awful lot of money investing in these opportunities for people to at least make sure they’re getting the return on investment on that front.

49:04

Exactly.

49:05

And if you genuinely care about your people, I mean, you’ve had global managing partners of of Quin Emmanuel or Cory Got.

49:10

These people come on the show over the years and they say our greatest asset is our people.

49:13

So, you know, genuinely caring and looking after them and all these little things that have a huge impact are super important.

49:18

This has been brilliant, Carlo.

49:20

And if our listeners want to learn more about your career or indeed Wealthbrite, where can they go to find out more?

49:25

Feel free to share any websites, any social media handles.

49:27

We’ll also share them with this episode for you too.

49:30

Thanks.

49:30

OK, so Kimena’s super simple.

49:32

You can find me on LinkedIn and just Google my name and you’ll find it, I’m sure.

49:36

And then otherwise, head of virtual website, lovebite.

49:39

co.

49:40

uk.

49:41

And folks can sign up, we’ve got a registration for a newsletter if you want to be kept up to date with events that we’re running and find out more about our programmes there.

49:49

But otherwise, yeah, that’s the simplest and easiest way to get in touch.

49:52

Perfect.

49:53

Well, it just needs me to say thank you ever so much once again, Carla, it’s been an absolute pleasure having you on the show.

49:57

So from all of us on the League of Speaking podcast sponsored by Clio, wishing you lots of continued success with your career and indeed what you’re building at Wealthbrite.

50:04

But from now, from all of us over and out, thank you for listening to this week’s episode.

50:08

If you like the content here.

50:10

Why not check out our world leading content and collaboration hub, that legally speaking Club, over on Discord?

50:18

Go to our website

50:21

www.legallyspeakingpodcast.

50:23

com for the link to join our community there over and out.