What if the way we lead today isn’t fit for the future?

This week, I’m joined by Gemma Ellison, Founder of Heart Leadership, a consultancy dedicated to transforming workplace culture and leadership. Gemma shares her journey from solicitor to culture advocate, why purpose-driven environments are essential and how leaders can design spaces where people truly thrive.

If you’re ready to rethink leadership and the human side of business, this episode is a must-listen. Tune in now to start your own transformation.

So why should you be listening in? 

You can hear Rob and Gemma discussing:

– Gemma’s Career and Background

– Being the “Director of Culture” in a Law Firm

– The Importance of Neurodiversity in Professional Environments

– Gemms’s Innovative Approach to Building Healthy Workplace Culture

– Drawing Leadership from Sports Examples

Connect with Gemma here – https://uk.linkedin.com/in/gemma-ellison

Visit Heart Leadership – https://heart-leadership.co.uk/

Transcript

Gemma Ellison  0:00  

Culture is for all of us. It’s a challenge that we all need to think about and build habits around. I think it should be the top of the agenda of organisations. As leaders, we all need to be in touch with our own human condition and understand ourselves. But then also, human condition is really important and how to get the best out in any given situation. I think that people can be given more time and space to lead people then I think that’s what I see the future. Being on

Robert Hanna  0:26  

today’s legally speaking podcast, I’m delighted to be joined by Gemma Ellison. Gemma is the founder of heart leadership, a culture and leadership consultancy. She attended Liverpool John Moores University, where she studied the law and was a solicitor at Bruni Jackson cancer. Gemma was previously a senior talent and leadership manager at Macmillan Cancer Support. Gemma strongly believes in helping organisations and leaders build a healthy and inspiring performance environments, and she’s on a mission to find unique, bespoke ways to enhance culture. So a very big, warm welcome to the show, Gemma.

Gemma Ellison  0:59  

Thank you. Thanks for having me. Oh, it’s absolute pleasure. Really excited

Robert Hanna  1:04  

for today’s discussion, but before we get there, we do have a customary icebreaker question here on the legally speaking podcast, which is on the scale of one to 1010, being very real. What would you rate the hit TV series suit in terms of its reality of the law? If you’ve seen it.

Gemma Ellison  1:20  

So I was a family lawyer in child protection, so in terms of my world two, I didn’t, definitely didn’t see Harvey Spectre knocking about Vernon Street family court. So

Robert Hanna  1:30  

there we go. I’m very well justified. And with that too, we’ll move swiftly on to talk all about you. So to begin with, John, would you mind telling our listeners a bit about your background and career journey?

Gemma Ellison  1:41  

Yeah, sure. I guess first thing about background, I was born in Liverpool. I’m sure you can tell with the accent, very sort of deprived area of Liverpool, so becoming a lawyer was never sort of on my agenda. I guess people like me so grew up in it with a single mom, deprived area of Liverpool. Things were not easy, and I guess that led to me wanting to become a family lawyer to sort of support people who were in my position. I guess to an extent, things would again, another thing in terms of my background, I’ve got ADHD. I was undiagnosed until I was 30, so I spent my life wondering why on earth I couldn’t do well in the exam. So, yeah. So bit of a unusual start, really, in terms of people I ended up working with, and colleagues, I was much more like my clients, I guess, than my colleagues. So that’s what that’s where it all started. I guess I wanted to be a solicitor because I had a strong sense of justice I always have. I guess our city is quite famous for it, really. But also, my mum was a cleaner, and I wanted to buy her a house. And I thought, I know there’d be money in this game. I was wrong as a legal aid lawyer, as it happens. But then, yeah, so one of the big things for me in my life, unfortunately, my mum died before I had the chance to qualify. So I was very motivated and driven to that point for that reason, and then it just carried on, I guess. So I became a child protection lawyer, and that in a nutshell is, I guess, what you need to know about me in terms of the beginning really, in that all that context plays a massive part in in terms of who I am and why I do what I do now,

Robert Hanna  3:25  

yeah, and we’re absolutely gonna go into that. And thank you for sharing so openly. And, yeah, we’ve had lots of guests on the show before. We’d like to have Jody Hill, a media platform, who runs the neurodiverse project as well. You know, I think we need to have more conversations. You mentioned there age 30, you know, only just sort of finding out from the ADHD side. So that’s why we’re so keen to have you on today to learn more about your journey and also get your own perspectives. But what did you most enjoy when you were a solicitor, specifically from from your time there

Gemma Ellison  3:55  

clients. So I was always quite interested in I didn’t like the law. I had no interest in the law itself. I believed in justice, and I always believed in giving a voice to people who didn’t have one in society. So I absolutely loved the clients, and I loved people coming to me from lots of different walks of life, lots of different backgrounds, and coming to me with a problem, and then we got into a bit of sort of behavioural change, I guess to an extent, I was much more than their lawyer. I became the first person they told they were pregnant, or the first person the hospital and had a baby, and I had to bring them on a journey from getting to where they were to who they wanted to be. And I was fascinated by that. I was fascinated by the human condition, I guess, so that’s what I loved, in terms of the black letter. Law wasn’t really my bag, really, but the people, the clients, law is a people game, and I loved that. And that’s the key

Robert Hanna  4:51  

point, because I think so many people can obviously deliver the legal service, but it’s that human touch. It’s that building, that genuine relationship. It’s care. For your clients, that’s the real piece that people are going to buy into. And you gave great examples there where people are telling you really personal life moments and sharing it with this there’s a relationship. There an authentic relationship. So I think that’s a really good piece of advice, just generally, for our listeners as well. In a world that’s super competitive, a way to not race to the bottom is actually really double down on them, fostering really good quality client relationships. So okay, let’s move forwards then, because I’d love to talk about heart leadership, because you are the founder of heart leadership. Would you mind telling us a bit about the culture and leadership consultancy and again, why it all started? Yeah,

Gemma Ellison  5:32  

so it all started because I mentioned just there about a big bereavement in my life. So so you start to question life and why things happen. And I started to wonder, why on earth does anyone want to work in a law firm? I was genuinely interested as a lawyer, thinking, why do we all do this? Why is our life measured in six minute units, and we’ve got to do things in this way? So I became very interested in what I now know to be culture. And luckily, at the time, we had a CEO who loved that kind of stuff. He wasn’t a lawyer himself, and he wanted to create a place where he would want to come to work. So I was cheeky and sort of created my own job. I’d been a solicitor, I’d done lots of awards. I’d done really good work, and I wanted to change career. So I remember just before I was 30, I decided to ask him if I could do some culture work. So I created my own job, which was director of culture, the first one that I knew of in the law. And I started looking after all things employee experience. So my job, essentially, was to create a great place to work for 300 people. So I did that, looked after all sorts of different things in that space, and created it from the ground up. And then we started to acquire law firms. So I would go into law firms, do the same thing, assess the culture, help them build a village capability. So I was doing that anyway, to be honest. And then I guess I I’m not very good at being employed or rob To be honest, and I think the ADHD may play a big part in that, but I have always known I wanted to see life beyond the law. I wanted to test my own ability out there. So I went to Macmillan for a while and help with their culture and leadership and talent, and then with the view to always setting up heart leadership. So part leadership is a leadership and culture consultancy. We help people build really great places to work. And build is the important word, because it’s a it’s a process. So that’s what we do.

Robert Hanna  7:37  

Yeah, and I love how you know you innovated. You know, so many people stay at a stay at a problem, or, you know, they see something and don’t take action. I love that you created your own role. I think we had Trevor Sterling on before, who, you know, very, very successful law firm partner. He says, don’t just aspire to climb the ladder. Aspire to be the ladder. And I think, you know, you gave a great example there, where you created your own ladder. In many respects, you created your own role. And then obviously it’s gone on to, you know, having a wonderful business and all these wonderful opportunities. But you touched on there one of your previous roles as a sort of senior talent leadership manager at the likes of Macmillan Cancer Support. And you’ve also had some sort of culture and learning and director roles as well. Have those experiences, or how have those experiences really shaped your approach to heart leadership. So

Gemma Ellison  8:21  

the first, yeah, culture director roles helped me to understand how owners and businesses think, because it’s a you know, you’ll know yourself. It’s a strange mission being and when you own a business. And I got a real insight into how owners worked and how what they wanted to see, and how to, particularly in the law, explain things like culture and why, actually, it’s key to performance, not just a fluffy thing to have, and it’s a nice to have. So that was great experience for me. There Macmillan, I had a great leader who was very inspiring, and sort of would throw him into situations to build my experience. I re found my love of facilitation. There, we had a great management development programme, and I guess at Macmillan my obsession with managers was able to test it really, because often in organisations, we think about leadership as a role, not as a behaviour, and we’ve got a missing layer of people who don’t get any attention, which is managers, which is your team leaders, your heads, department maybe. And at Macmillan, they had a real focus on the 400 managers that they had in those in those roles. So lots of great work there. And also testing myself in a different industry, charity is so so so different to the corporate world, and that was always important to me, too. For me, again, I always wanted to own my own business, and I always wanted to work across industries, so that I could see what was going on in different places, bring it all in to give the clients that I have the best possible view of what’s happening out there in the world. So I think, I don’t think any job is ever wasted. I. Think, you know, you learn from everywhere you go. And I’ve done that from my first ever jobs. So everything I’ve experienced, everything I’ve done, has brought me to this place, and I’m still learning all the time. And

Robert Hanna  10:13  

that’s it, as we all are and as we all should be, even more so in the age of 2025, and you know, no two days absolutely the same. And I always talk about that from my sort of legal recruiting perspective, when I’m talking to lawyers who are thinking about career moves. You know, it’s about building blocks. You know, your career nowadays, when you make a career move, it’s another building block to put on top of your your your sort of already established skill set, whatever it might be. And then these complement each other, and then there’s transferability. There’s the option to then build on these and set up your own business like you’ve done or whatever it is. So always treat sort of career moves as another building block, as part of you, kind of your own journey. And I think you gave a really good example of that as well. You’ve given high level an overview of what heart leadership does. But I think you do some really good work. So I’d love for you to tell our listeners a little bit more about the services you specifically offer with your

Gemma Ellison  10:59  

business. We build cultures with organisations. So it’s very much a partnership. We don’t sort of direct and detach, I guess, to an extent, we were very much alongside people. So we do we do that in three different ways. So we help with leadership and management. So leadership being the behaviour, not just the role, culture and learning. So in leadership, we’ll do leadership development, but with a with a difference. I don’t speak in theories and models. I’ve been on the ground as a leader in an organisation. I know it’s hard, so I’m a storyteller. I like to create experiences that are grounded in reality and how people feel now. So leadership works really popular, to be honest, in terms of culture, I am anti transformation. Okay, so we’ve got, we’re on LinkedIn for five seconds, and we see lots of transformation Conversations. I’m anti transformation. And so far as culture is not an event, it is something to build. So you mentioned building blocks there. Yeah, that’s exactly how I approach culture. So we build it to last. It’s not just a it’s not an event. It’s not something to solve once. It’s a habit, it’s something that we have to get into. So we help organisations to develop culture habits, and whether that’s communication, engagement, listening, anything like that. So we’re a real sort of culture partner. And also we assess culture too. So we get in and get under the bonus of what’s going on in an organisation, which is scary for owners of businesses, and then learning. Okay, so I’m a big fan of learning and creating learning culture. So one thing that I’ve noticed is that organisations sometimes haven’t got the resource to run a learning development team. Now you mentioned earlier with lawyers about those essential skills, as I would call them for me, teaching lawyers how to communicate and teaching people how to have empathy and all that kind of thing is important. So we essentially build academies for people, and we can be their fractional L and D partner. So you don’t need to have a full time l and d person will come in, write your strategy, deliver it if you need to, but help you to really build something that can keep you people engaged. So three things, Leadership, Culture and learning is what we do really. Today’s

Robert Hanna  13:12  

episode is brought to you by Cleo, the all in one legal practice management software designed to help solicitors like you save time, stay organised and deliver outstanding client experience. Clio is trusted by 1000s of legal professionals worldwide, offering a user friendly interface, seamless time recording, automated billing and secure cloud storage so you can manage your practice from anywhere. With Clio, you’ll get award winning support available 24, five by live chat, phone and email. So help is always there when you need it most. It’s no wonder Clio consistently receives five star ratings for its ease of use and top notch service. If you’re ready to experience a better way to manage your practice, visit clio.com forward slash UK to learn more and see why Clio continues to be the go to choice for solicitors across the UK. Now, back to the show. I love that you talked about habits, because it reminds me of when I was at Clio Con last year. And obviously, Clio sponsor our show that was in Austin, Texas, and they had James clear as one of the keynote speakers, who you’ll probably know very well as well. And you know, he says, replace goals with systems. So, you know, very simple example, if you want to, you want to be a better writer as a lawyer, then start by putting a pen and paper next to your your sort of desk, type bed every night, tonight, try try something. Or maybe you want to be a better researcher, pick up a book or do like habits, rather than just having these targets and goals, have things that in place that can really help you build a system that can change things. So I love that you you’re working on that, and yeah, all the great work that you do, let’s drive deeper into purpose driven environments. I think there’s a real need for that now, and particularly the people I’m talking to are not just coming to work for for a salary. They’re coming to work for some real purpose and meaningful work. So you saying purpose driven environment happens? By design, not accident. What are the key elements of designing such an environment?

Gemma Ellison  15:04  

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, well, on the first point that about it being by design, not by accident, you know, people have a culture, whether they sort of, they like it or not, or whether they know it or not, and if you don’t design it, then it designs itself. And that’s where we start getting accidental cultures that are problematic at times. So for me, the first thing to do is to listen. So whether it’s us going into an organisation and listening for them, or whether we’re supporting people to their own learning listening systems, that’s what we all do. So listening is the key point. Culture leaves clues. Okay? So you know, people will tell you very quickly how they feel about working in a place, and that can be really, really scary. People sometimes don’t want to do that and But listening is the first thing to do. I then back onto the habit point. We start small, and it’s sort of this feels contrary to what we’re told. We’re always told, you, big picture thinking, let’s transform things. It’s not sustainable. So for me, people haven’t got the time or the attention span or the resource to go around transforming things. So what I help them do is to start small, and often the small things have the biggest impact. So always looking for some quick ones when we’ve done a listening exercise. So I think, listen first, then we start small. We start building out systems. Back to your James, clear reference there. Start building systems in some areas in your organisation. Then, importantly, we test things so with small groups of people. So again, often you might sort of bring in somebody and say, right, I want new values. And then they’ll create some and then they just go on the wall. Do they really work? So I’m a big fan of experimentation in organisations. So we’ll test, we’ll experiment, we’ll pilot things, and then when we’ve got evidence that change is being effective, we will then launch and implement things. So that’s the typical way of doing things. And also, when you’re doing that, you bring your people on the journey with you. You’re not doing it to people, you’re doing it with people. And, you know, I’m a big you know, we spend hours and hours on on business plans, but there are a group of people you have to deliver that plan. So getting them as on board and engaged and bought into the purpose, and setting the purpose as possible always wins. So that’s typically the system that we would use when we were thinking about creating purpose, sort of driven environments. And it’s 10 it tends to work, to be honest, but importantly, it’s sustainable, yeah,

Robert Hanna  17:32  

and I love that you just start with with listening, but really active listening and really information gathering, because then it’s bespoke, isn’t it? And what you’re offering is correct? But the other key point with this is it’s work, right? You have to put in the work to get the right culture and to have flourish. And, like you say, so, you know, fail fast. You know, absolutely AB test things, because not everything’s going to work straight off the bat, right? So I love that you do that, and then once you’ve done that testing, you then implement what’s hopefully going to work. And even from there, there’s still going to need to be tweaks. They’re going to be refinements. They’re going to be need things as you know, certain events happen, whatever it might be. Let’s talk about the sensitivity for the human condition. Because you’ve been described as, as I just said, sensitivity for human condition. How has this shaped your approach to leadership and culture? Specifically, I

Gemma Ellison  18:18  

remember that being said to me once, it was by barrister who I used to, I used to get quite difficult clients come across my desk, which I loved. And he when he I think he was writing an award recommendation, and he said that, and I was interested, because I asked him what he meant, and he said, You just seem to get it from a human perspective. You appreciate that people are human, that we all have individual context, and that those contexts consistently change. So So for me, I love sports. We’re both Liverpool fans, Rob So I so, you know, I’m very interested in how humans are motivated, how, you know, I’m very interested in leadership and how we can create healthy and inspiring performance environments for teams, and that, for me, starts with being sensitive to the human condition and realising that people are human. And I think whether I’m just an eternal optimist, but I think people are fundamentally good. People don’t want to go to work and do bad things, typically. So how can we tap into everyone else’s human condition, and how can we create an environment that brings the best out in that person? So one of the things I picked up from Macmillan was about getting to know your team as individuals. That’s important. What motivates them, you know? How? How can we get the best out of them? So, but I think now, with the whole human condition, piece and leadership and culture, people, you said before, people are not just coming to work for a salary anymore. People are coming to work for much more than that, and people are now knowing their boundaries too, which I think has been a long time coming. It’s not just, you know, the new generations coming through the workforce. It. Everyone, the pandemic has changed things. So I think as leaders, we all need to be in touch with our own human condition and understand ourselves. But then also, human condition is really important, and how to get the best out of any given situation.

Robert Hanna  20:15  

Yeah, no, absolutely. And it’s just really fabulous work that you’re doing, because it’s coming from a place of really supporting and hopefully giving people the tools to then flourish and have a more purpose fueled career, which is ultimately what it’s all about. But we are Liverpool fans, and I know you have a little a little piece when it comes to Jurgen Klopp, obviously, former Liverpool manager, we’d love to share a little bit about that, because that’s how we were originally connected actually through another alumni, the wonderful Sean Jardine, who was just wowed by your talk when you use that Liverpool reference. So would you mind giving me a bit of context to our listeners for that one? I think it’s quite

Gemma Ellison  20:52  

relevant for today. Yeah. So it was called What would Jurgen do, and it was great because I had some time to fill at a conference we were delivering at Anfield of all places. It was very nice day for me, and it was, yeah, I came up with sort of six pillars to a leadership model, and I used it now, even now. So the first thing was data. Thinking about, what data do we have? Sounds strange talking about data when it comes to culture, but it’s so important again, I said, before culture leaves clues. So it was talking about, how can we look at the data we have and optimise that? I think there’s so much good stuff happening in the AI space now that will help there. We’ve then got a clear plan. So what is the clear plan? And does everyone know what it is? You’d be surprised how many organisations I go into and as a clue what what they driving towards or why, but as part of that clear plan, having relationships central to that, which is what Juergen did at Liverpool. It was 70% team building and 30% tactics, then moving on to relentless inclusivity. When we win, we all win, and how can we make sure that everybody in your organisation knows that they play a part, whether that is from whatever level in the organisation, from whatever role in the organisation, psychological safety key in a law firm, particularly in the environments that we operate in, cannot have covering up of mistakes. So how can we create that space then got increasing capability. I think that’s the role of a leader. Jordan Henderson said about clap as he makes everybody around him better. And that was the same as Peter about slot, to be honest. And the final thing is having a team of leaders, which I love. I think for me, a competitive advantage of any organisation is creating and nurturing and supporting leaders quicker than anyone else around you, and that is leaders at every single level, and leadership as a behaviour. So that’s what that’s that is a keynote I do, but it’s also a course I run that’s a session for teams and bringing them through that sort of methodology. So there we go.

Robert Hanna  22:59  

Yeah, no. Love it. And thank you again for giving us some insight into that. I think it’s absolutely bang on. So really appreciate it. And it’s not because I’m biassed as a Liverpool fan, of course, but you talked very extensively there about leadership, and you also touched on sort of AI and technology. So I guess my next question is, how do you see leadership evolving over the next couple of years, especially as we continue to adopt all of these new technologies in your business and, you know, law firms as well,

Gemma Ellison  23:27  

I would like to see leadership being respected for the skill set, that it is okay. So I talk about the deliberate leader. Yeah, you know, one of the first questions, if I was recruiting a leader, or if I’m, you know, dealing with helping people with internal promotions, first question, do you want to lead people? Do you have an interest in in doing that? Because for me, at the moment, in organisations, leadership is still a side of the desk job. It’s on a Tuesday afternoon when I finish everything else I might think about leading my team. So I think now, with AI and everything else that’s coming in. Technology is changing so quickly, if you can automate some of the other stuff and actually, you know, create a space where leaders can lead. I think being able to effectively run a high performing team and coach them, that is such a valuable skill set. And I would love for organisations to take a leaf out of the book of sport where, you know, honest, not enough Liverpool, he’s not, he doesn’t have to sell the kit, he doesn’t have to sell tickets, he doesn’t have to he’s not a physio. He’s the team coach. And I would, I think, well, I’m starting to do it with organisations now, be their team coach. And I would really like the organisations to start placing their value on leadership. And I think, if I’m honest, that’s where the law needs to start catching up a little bit more and put on a real focus on, how can we create an environment that can optimise the performance of our people, and for that to be healthy and inspiring too, and culture doesn’t have to be about. Just the fluffy things. I always ban that word, but it is about performance, and it’s about success. And how can you create environments where that can happen? And for me, YouTube’s got a key role there. I think if people can be given more time and space to lead people, then I think that’s what I see the future being, and I hope it’s what the future is. Yeah,

Robert Hanna  25:22  

no, and we absolutely support that 100% Could we talk about misconceptions about workplace culture? Because I think this is very important as well. You know, what misconceptions do leaders often have about workplace culture, or you come across time and time again, and how do you help them overcome these? I

Gemma Ellison  25:44  

think one thing, the first thing is people seem to think, still, I guess Silicon Valley’s responsible for this. People think culture is is, is pool tables and Friday in yoga classes, and it’s not that’s not what organisational culture is all about. I also think that people are scared to understand what theirs is and what it’s like. And I think there’s sometimes a gap between what a senior leader or owner of a business thinks the culture is and what the people who are actually in the business think it is. So I some of the some you know, sometimes leadership teams have got a very favourable view of what it’s like to work in the organisation, whereas when you actually get into the organisation under the bonnet, it’s sometimes a very different experience. So, and I think, you know, culture is all about, how can people feel valued? Do people feel heard? Do people know that the work that they’re doing is part of something bigger. Because realistically, we all want to feel part of something. We all want to belong. And I think, you know, some of the other misconceptions I see is around belonging. So Owen Eastwood, I’m a big fan of Owen Eastwood and his book belonging, and he talks about the fact that, you know, belonging is a biological thing too. So sometimes you’ll see organisations where people are stressed, or people are overly stressed, burnt out, and this sort of thing, or anxious, worried, and then people still expect them to hit high performance, when actually it’s not possible for us. You know, if we are worried that we don’t belong somewhere, and we’re anxious and we’re scared or nervous, that’s where our energy goes into survival mode, rather than our ability to hit high performance. So I think it all ties in. And I think one of the misconceptions is that culture is a HR thing. It belongs over there, when actually culture is for all of us. It’s a challenge that we all need to think about and build habits around. And I think it should be the top of the agenda of organisations, because the culture is, is everything really it’s how does it feel to work around here? If it doesn’t feel good you don’t know about it? Yeah,

Robert Hanna  27:46  

and look, culture is your biggest asset, but could also be your, you know, your biggest liability if you don’t pay attention to it. So, yeah, I love that you give some, some really good examples there around some of the misconceptions and things people should be be thinking about. It should absolutely be at the top of the the agenda, because, you know, particularly the law firms, you know, not necessarily selling the legal advice, just you’re selling the people right. And if your people are involved, and it’s a people business, and they’re motivated, and they feel like they have a sense of belonging, and they really know where that North Star is and why they’re working on that and part of a wider mission, the more fulfilled career they have, the more job satisfaction, you’ll have just an overall better experience, higher client experience, all of that good stuff. So love it. Okay? I guess that leads nicely on to mentors, and I know it’s something you’re passionate about as well. In one of your recent LinkedIn posts, you focus on the importance of mentoring. So mentoring has played such a huge part in my development since I started working in the world of work, what can we do to pay it forward? How can we go about mentoring others love that far away? Yeah,

Gemma Ellison  28:49  

a lot of mentoring is So, you know, we, we are a product of people who are around us, and I think it’s important that we choose the right people to be around us. I owe a lot of a lot of people who have given me a chance, who’ve taken a chance on a kid from Liverpool, who who didn’t have very good academics and everything else, and who who put time and energy and effort into me when they didn’t have to. So I owe a lot of people a lot of gratitude. So for me, it’s really important to think, How can we, if we want to create again, great lawyers, great leaders, we have to put the effort in to do that. And I think, you know, that’s really important, that we do pay it forward. It’s we’ve you know, I used to run an initiative with my partner called What does a lawyer look like, where we would mentor people from underrepresented backgrounds into sort of moving up the ladder in an organisation. And I was talking to one of my old leaders before, actually, and she was talking about, you know, if you give them their leg up the ladder, make sure you extend the ladder one on the way back down. And I think that’s it’s important. It’s also fulfilling, though. It’s also nice to be able to pass on the wisdom that you’ve been fortunate. So quite. Other people to others, because we do have a responsibility that, you know, let’s be honest, the world needs better leaders. The world needs better humans and and we need to pay attention to that. I think we’ve become quite polarised and individualistic as a society when actually community is so important. I mean, you have had me on this for days, so I’ll be I’ll be brief, but that sense of community, and I think if we all just take a step to look past our own desk or look out of our own door and see who can I help? Can I help one person? Because you don’t realise the power of a kind word or of a conversation or of an hour of your time. And I know that we’re all busy, but I think if we want to create a better a better future for for all of us and for our colleagues and our clients everybody else, I think that all starts with taking a little bit of time and lifting our heads up and helping other people and giving them our time, plus

Robert Hanna  30:56  

one to that. Very well said, and there’s a real reason why I brand myself as a legal community builder, and I believe and talk about it so much, and we have a shared passion, because I think it is so important. And I think you have radiators and drains in your life, you know, you have people that radiate energy, people that are going to really kind of bring the best out of you. And unfortunately, there are, there are drains that you know going to suck the life out of you. And it’s really important that you take that responsibility, because there has to be self accountability. Unfortunately, in this world, the best way to make sure the world is the way you want it to be is to take action yourself and not necessarily rely on others, but when you build that community and you have more radiators around you, then absolutely, you’re going to have lots more fulfilment. You’re going to be able to get through any of the tough times that you might have. So you know, if you’re in a room and it’s just training your energy, you need to get out of that room and that, and that’s the key message here, gem, this has been absolute masterclass. I’ve really enjoyed learning about your story, and thank you for being so open and honest about sort of where it all started, your inspirations and aspirations. And you know everything you’ve gone on to achieve and will continue to do. And if our listeners, which I’m sure they will want to follow you or indeed learn more about heart leadership, where can they go to find out more? Feel free to share any websites, any social media handles. We’ll also include them in this very special episode for you too. Yeah.

Gemma Ellison  32:07  

So best place to find me at the moment is LinkedIn. So I’m very, very active on LinkedIn, often talking about my football analogies and just tips on culture habits too. So yeah, head over there. Yeah. And if anyone wants to reach out and have a chat, I’m always, I’m always happy to talk

Robert Hanna  32:24  

absolutely well. Just needs me to say, thank you so much. Once again, it’s been an absolute pleasure having you on the show. From all of us on the Leeds bean podcast, sponsored by Cleo, wishing you lots of continued success with your career and indeed, all the future things you get up to. But for now, from all of us over and out, thank you for listening to this week’s episode. If you like the content here, why not check out our world leading content and Collaboration Hub, the legally speaking club, over on Discord. Go to our website, www.legallyspeakingpodcast.com, for the link to join our community there, over and out.