Getting into Law School with Bad Grades and Utilising AI for Contracts – Alex Su – S3E18

Rob Hanna (00:00):

Welcome to the Legally Speaking Podcast. I’m your host, Rob Hanna. This week, I’m delighted to be joined by Alex Su. Alex is a director of business development at Evisort in the United States. Specializing in AI contracts management, a former lawyer who’s transitioned into the business and tech world. Alex is now the host of the meeting of minds podcast, runs monthly zoom networking sessions, and has published a book on how to get into law school with bad grades. So, a very big welcome Alex.

Alex Su (00:35):

Thanks so much for having me, Robert, really excited to be here.

Rob Hanna (00:38):

It’s a real pleasure. It’s a real pleasure to have you on the show. You have a wealth of experience and we can’t wait to dive into it all. But, before we go through all of that, we do have a customary question here on the legally speaking podcast around suits. So on the scale of one to 10, from your experience, what would you rate the hit series suits in terms of its reality? On a scale of one to 10.

Alex Su (01:03):

I would say five. I’m going to give a boring answer just because I think there’s some things in there that are really realistic. I think some of the personalities that you see in there and on the show, I think that the reason why it’s so popular is because it depicts what should be the practice of law or what they thought the practice of law would be when they were in law school. So I’ll give it a five, I’ll give it, um, you know, both realistic and unrealistic parts of it.

Rob Hanna (01:24):

Yeah, fair enough and you kind of narrated your answer there very, very well there. And listen, as we probably got to know each other very much so through LinkedIn, I love all your content. You’re massive on there. You’ve done so much for the legal community and what you’re doing in AI at the moment, but let’s take it right back to the beginning. Tell us a bit about your sort of family background and upbringing.

Alex Su (01:45):

Sure. So I was born in Brooklyn, New York, raised in New York, a really proud new Yorker. My parents are immigrants. They came from Taiwan and I grew up thinking that I was probably be some sort of engineer or something in computers. That just seem to be the path for children of Asian immigrants. But somewhere along the way, I decided I wanted to be a lawyer. I really thought that having a law degree would make me articulate, make me speak well. I really admired people who could do that. So for a lot of different reasons, I decided to go to law school and wanting to become a trial lawyer. And at the time there weren’t too many people from my community who are going into law, although it’s increased a lot since then, I came about finding my path into law and a lot of it was dependent on what I saw on TV. When I read in books, I mean, suits wasn’t out then, but certainly a few good men that movie in the States was very popular. John Grisham books. I read all of them. I used to read them all the time thinking that the life of a lawyer would be pretty incredible. So that’s what led me to my path through law and to law school.

Rob Hanna (02:46):

Thanks for sharing that. That’s really, really interesting. And I mentioned in the intro, you’ve recently become a published author. Your book is called the unauthorized guide to getting into law school with bad grades. So, is this something you wrote based on your own experience and tell us more about it?

Alex Su (03:04):

That’s right. I went to college, went to university and I’ve never been really good with academics in school, which is interesting because I’m now a lawyer and you would assume that the two go hand in hand, but I’ve never been really good at it. And in college I spent a lot of time doing student organization work, leading clubs. I did a lot of extracurricular activities, but it didn’t focus enough on the classroom and I didn’t have great grades. I had actually pretty bad grades. And one day I decided I want to go to law school. And so when I applied to law school, I realized that you needed to have great grades. And there was this perception that you didn’t need really top grades to get into the good schools. So I researched it and I did a lot of things to both prepare my application, but I also tried things like trying to talk my way with admissions officers to try to get into some of the top schools.

Alex Su (03:52):

So I tried a lot of different things. I worked really hard to get a good LSAT score. And I was successful in getting into Northwestern law, which is, I was at the time, you know, ranked in the top 10 or so schools in the U S. And so I decided to write about my experience. I posted it in an online forum, it got pretty popular. So I wrote a blog post about it. And over time as its popularity grew, I decided to turn it into an ebook. And so I’ve been thinking about it for a long time. It took me a really long time to put together, and I finally released it about a year ago. So the book is just a guide, a very short guide to anyone who might have weaker than expected grades for law school, but still wants to go, still wants to get into a good school. It talks about my experience. I share a few stories and some advice on what I would tell someone who was in my position when I was applying. Okay.

Rob Hanna (04:42):

Yeah. And I must say it’s a fantastic book. And if people want to get their hands on it, where can they get access to it or get it from where’s the best place to go,

Alex Su (04:49):

You can find it on Amazon. There’s a Kindle option. And there’s also a hard copy option, but Amazon’s the best place. Find the link on my LinkedIn, or you can Google it. I would recommend getting the electronic version is cheaper and it’s also really easy to digest very quickly,

Rob Hanna (05:04):

Great stuff. And just if you were to offer, obviously there’s so much in that book, but maybe your best piece of advice to our listeners who may be in a situation at the moment where their grades aren’t as good as they’d hoped for or the wanting to get into a law school. What would be your sort of, couple of key pieces of advice to them?

Alex Su (05:21):

I’d say there’s a lot of things you can do, but there’s nothing better you can do to advance your odds than to adequately prepare for the law school admissions test. So the LSAT is weighed very heavily by admissions people for a lot of different reasons. Now you can get around it. You can find clever ways or creative ways to set yourself apart, but the LSAT is going to be a big driver of your success. So I would say that takes a few more months if it takes delaying your cycle, just make sure you focus on the LSAT because it pays dividends over many years.

Rob Hanna (05:53):

Yeah. Great stuff. And we want to talk more about you and your career because you have achieved and done so much and you made some really good transitions, but early on in your career, you worked as a sort of law clerk to a federal judge. What was that role like? And how do you find that experience?

Alex Su (06:09):

That was my favorite law job. I haven’t been shy about sharing about my frustrations with my legal career, but that clerkship, that first job out of law school, working for a judge, I would recommend it to anyone who was able to get it because it was something I wanted to do for awhile. While I was in law school. I thought it would be a great training ground. And it was, I was able to build a relationship with a very successful lawyer who became a judge and he really mentored me and really guided me. And so I would recommend that for anyone who’s interested in a career in litigation. And certainly for anyone, who’s curious about how the courts operate, because the job is really helping the judge prepare to make decisions. So that’s legal research, reviewing the facts and providing recommendations on how to rule.

Alex Su (06:55):

And obviously it’s not your decision, it’s the judge’s decision, but by talking things through, you really do get an understanding of how courts make decisions. And what I really enjoyed about it was, was not just the substantive law part of it, but there were a lot of mentorship aspects that I think is lost in the practice of law today. And partly why I was frustrated at working at law firms. The judge invested in my career and getting to know me personally, and in continuing that investment over the years, I exchanged emails with them. You know, I shared pictures with them of my daughter when she was just born. He shares milestones things he’s gone through over the last 10 years. So we’ve continued that relationship and he’s always looked out for me. And so for anyone listening, it was considering clerking for a judge right out of law school. And I know this may be different in different parts of the world, but for those in the, in the US landing, a clerkship is difficult, but it’s highly recommended. It’s a great experience.

Rob Hanna (07:46):

And it’s, it’s so lovely to hear that you had such a positive experience when first starting out. And I guess, what was your key key learn from that overall experience? If you were to kind of say one thing that’s been imprinted in your mind from that particular role, what was the greatest thing you probably learned from that time?

Alex Su (08:03):

I’ll give you an answer. That’s not skills based. It’s not something I took away that I could bring with me to my career. But you learn a lot about yourself when you’re in a position of reviewing the facts of a case and making a recommendation on how to decide, because most people don’t do that. Most lawyers are in the position of not deciding which side to take. They’re just assigned a position and they’re told, make an argument. So when you have the ability to make a recommendation, look at all the facts and make a decision, you don’t just make a decision. You learn a lot about how you approach problems, which side you sympathize with, and a lot about your own philosophy of how cases should be decided. So I think for me, the biggest takeaway was that I learned that I really am a person who looks out for the underdog.

Alex Su (08:46):

I was more forgiving of parties who might not have had the cleanest briefs. You know, maybe there were typos, maybe the argument could have been made better, but if there was something unfair that happened some sort of discrimination, or if it was a smaller company going up against a bigger party, I always had sympathies for the smaller ones. I thought the law was a great place to level the playing field. So that was a big learning about myself. And it informed me on how to make career decisions. I think I’m always going to be an upstart type of person, whether it’s a smaller firm, whether it’s a small company or a startup, Robert, you know this, but I worked for a startup now, I have found my path by starting off in big law and going to smaller and smaller firms. So that’s really played out. And that was a big learning experience about myself, just being in that law clerk position.

Rob Hanna (09:29):

And thanks so much for sharing that. And we’re definitely going to talk about the president, but before we jump onto that, I definitely want to talk about, cause you did spend a few years as an associate in big law, and you’re quite the boson in some of your commentary now, which I must say I do really, really enjoy, but trying to put a look at a positive on it, what positive would you have taken away from working in undoubtedly one of the best, largest, most known prestigious law firms in New York. What did you enjoy from that experience? And people are maybe thinking about that.

Alex Su (09:59):

Robert, you know this as well as I do, I often write about my big law experience. I think it’s easy to poke fun at it, which is why I do it. But at the end of the day, it was a fantastic experience professionally. I got to learn the nuts and bolts of litigation. I think by not just skills we learn, it’s this theme, I guess I’m done talking to them about the slides. The skills are there and they can be used if you stay in the space, but he leaves, there are some transferable skills. It’s kind of a mix. But what I took away from my big law experience was understanding how successful attorneys worked. They came from their work ethic. It came from the way they thought through the problems. It came from the way that they synthesize material and organized it. And that wasn’t just the partners.

Alex Su (10:40):

It was people who are slightly above me on the org chart. It’s like senior associates. It was my peers. It was, you know, people who were summer associates, junior people who I watched their brilliance. You know, a lot of these people were recruited from the best law firms in the country around the world. And so I think what I took away from it is number one, how do successful people operate? And I think a big part of it is being detailed, oriented, big part of it is writing clearly, working quickly, providing the answer in a concise manner and then providing details. So there’s a lot I learned from that. And second, everyone works hard. There’s almost no one I met who was successful, but didn’t really work at it. And you know, you had people from some of the best law schools in the US you know, come in and didn’t work very hard.

Alex Su (11:26):

They didn’t do well. I realized that it wasn’t just about how smart you are. You really did have to work at it all the time. And so I’d like to think that I absorbed. So, that work ethic and some of that standard for excellence, but for anyone thinking about big law, especially if you’re a law student, it’s a great way to pick up some skills and learn a lot, as long as you go into it, realistically, understanding what the shortcomings are. And a lot of that comes at the expense of your personal life. So it’s a much more nuanced answer than I would probably provide in social media. But, that’s kind of there, you have it, Robert.

Rob Hanna (11:56):

Yeah. And I really liked that balanced answer because you’ve really put that well. And I agree with you just talking about the work ethic point of view. Yes. You will see the odd overnight success story, but like you, Alex, anyone that I know that’s worth their weight as had to work jolly hard to get that and continues to work hard and sets pushing barriers and pushing themselves. So we must move on. So after several years, New York, all the main law, you transition into the business and tech world, which I must say from what I’ve seen and what I know thus far, you’re doing so, so well. But how, and why did he decide to make the move?

Alex Su (12:30):

I think that’s a great question because I can paint for you a very clear and linear picture. I went to law, I figured I didn’t like it. I made the jump to legal tech and it’s been worked out really well since that’s the story I would probably give to people. I don’t really know, but given that we’re kind of diving into it, it was a very messy path. I started off in big lies, as you mentioned, I wasn’t happy there. So I went to a smaller firm that didn’t work out. I actually got, let go from that job, which in the beginning of my career, I was a little bit more hesitant to talk about, but I’ve come to realize that it’s a very common challenge that people go through. And it certainly released me from a job I couldn’t be successful at, but being fired was a very tough experience.

Alex Su (13:09):

And at that point I thought, well, I got to do something. I got to do something. And I, at the time I was in my early thirties, I think I wanted to figure out where I could be successful. I needed to win. And I thought, well, I’m very entrepreneurial. I like smaller organizations. Let me just try to run a solo practice. That seems to be a way I could be successful. And I just immediately launched my practice, doing all sorts of different things that were not what I had been trained on, you know, not big time litigation. It was a lot of random matters that people, you know, needed legal advice on. And did that for a year. Commercially. It was not successful. I did not make anywhere near enough money to keep up the business now had I continued, who knows, but I quickly realized that I really enjoyed some parts of running my own practice, but I didn’t enjoy others.

Alex Su (13:50):

And I think that realization, and I think what I enjoyed the most was sales and marketing. That was my favorite part of running my own practice. And what I didn’t like was actually the underlying legal work, which was interesting. Right. Because I think I do like some types of legal work, but not all. And I think I just felt like the sales and marketing side, I just liked it so much. And when you run your own business, you tend to be able to do what you want to do for me sometimes at the detriment of my own business. But I kept on with the sales and marketing thing. And when I realized at the time when I was, it was time to close shop and move on, I thought, well, okay, I am 33 years old. I’ve done well in these environments. And you know, in certain environments I have all this legal experience, but I don’t really know where I fit in.

Alex Su (14:32):

And so I was 33. I could not figure out what career path there was. There was no set path forward. And so I thought, well, okay, well, let’s start from first principles. I really want to work with people. I like sales and marketing. I have legal experience. I live in the San Francisco Bay area where tech is big and there’s legal technology companies. So maybe what I should do is go to one of them and find a role that aligns with my strengths, what I like to do and not something that has a prescribed career path. And it was very scary because if you’re not doing something that everyone else is doing, it can seem like you’re a little bit off period rocker, a little bit crazy. But I chose a role where I thought I could be successful. And it was something that I had involved cold calling lawyers.

Alex Su (15:11):

It was a sales position typically designed for a new college grad. But I knew from my old experiences that I could do cold calls, I could do sales, I had legal experience. And so just diving right in, I joined a startup in the legal tech space did very well. And I grew very fast. I caught up to where my original trajectory was fairly quickly. So all of which is to say, it’s a messy path when you’re going through it and it can be scary, but whenever you hear people talk about their own career paths, I think we always paint a picture that I had decided this, and then this happened. I decided that, and that happened, but very often it’s just kind of making your way through a mess of information. And I don’t know if you’ve had that experience, but I’ve certainly had that experience.

Rob Hanna (15:51):

Yeah. And I think thank you for being so open and honest about that. I think any career or entrepreneurial journey it’s never quite as black and white, as people saying, there’s always going to be bumps in the road or the setback sometimes can really do you know what they can help you refocus channel and a great example. You’ve just offered there that you took that bad experience and look where you are now and what you’re doing. It’s fantastic. So I really do commend you for that, Alex. And I guess just to give people a bit more of a, an openness to what your day-to-day looks like now, because you’re a director of business development, tell us more about that sort of role and what you get up to.

Alex Su (16:24):

Sure. So I started off, as I mentioned, doing cold calls to lawyers in sales. You just need to reach people and convince them to buy your product. And I did that for the most of the first, probably three years of my career. And then over time, I’ve come to do a lot more marketing because as a salesperson, you can do cold calls, you can do cold emails, but it’s very effective. If you can find ways for people to come to you, as opposed to you going to them. And so in my role in my day to I obviously I do sales calls, I do my typical sales type of tasks, but I also do a significant amount of marketing, which includes a lot of social media posting and activities. I host webinars, I host meetups. All of these things are done in part to get to know more people and to potentially drive more business in a way that they’re reaching out to me instead of me reaching out to them.

Alex Su (17:13):

And I think the most interesting development that I’ve been doing lately is so, I have this email list where I reach out to people and I host these meetups. And so for folks who are in my target market, who I’m trying to market to, and they’re often on these meetups meeting one another, talking about the challenges they face, and it helps me understand the mind of the person I’m trying to pitch. So I think that’s been pretty interesting and that’s led to all sorts of interesting projects. Like I’ve recently started recording these very short videos, demonstrating the hilarity and the silliness of law practice from the eyes of somebody who’s a practicing lawyer. A lot of those insights came from my own experience and from talking to high level lawyers, but they’re very relatable because I think there’s people who are practicing are very frustrated with a lot of aspects of the practice of law.

Alex Su (17:59):

And I highlight them in these videos and they’ve been pretty popular and they’ve been helpful in getting attention out there for my company and for my sales efforts. And so these are some of the projects that I’ve been working on. I feel like it’s an interesting time right now, given that we have COVID and everything’s going remote, finding business is hard, but for those of us who are creative and have been in this space for a while who have legal experience, I think that there’s a lot of opportunities and I, and I find them very exciting.

Rob Hanna (18:23):

Yeah. And I just want to correct you Alex. They’re not pretty popular. They’re very popular. And I’m a big fan of them as a I really enjoy them. And you have a fantastic presence. Particularly we talk around social media, but on LinkedIn, we share many mutual connections in globally around the world. Why would you encourage others in and around the legal sector to embrace the platform and maybe other social medias as well?

Alex Su (18:46):

Yeah, highly encouraged people to do it. Different personalities do better than others. Some people are very private and that this is not going to be a good forum for the rest of us. I think if you’re able to make yourself into a human, like a person, a three-dimensional person, I think you’ll find that people find that very interesting and attractive that people want to learn more about you. Because up until now, I think before LinkedIn got big and before social media got too big, a lot of times what your image of a lawyer was certainly the image of a lawyer I had in my mind when I was applying, is somebody who’s very buttoned up someone who’s very serious. And someone who is all about work, social media and especially LinkedIn has enabled a lot of us, myself included, but also you and many of our mutual connections in the legal industry showcase their personality.

Alex Su (19:33):

And conversely, by showcasing that personality, you end up being able to find more opportunities, whether it’s generating business revenue for your organization or meeting people who could provide you with a career opportunity. So I would highly recommend it. I think it’s still early on in the life cycle of social media. I do think that things like, you know, Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat, all those other what I’ll call fun, social apps. They’re a bit saturated, but on the professional side, it’s still very early. A lot of people are very worried of sticking their neck out and putting out content. But if you’re able to do it right now, I think you do get a first mover advantage. So I highly recommend it for anybody. Who’s interested in doing it. And I’ll add one more thing, which is you don’t have to copy what works for somebody else.

Alex Su (20:15):

I have people saying to me, you know, Hey Alex, it’s great that you put out these videos, but I can never say what you say because of X, Y, and Z. I have these concerns, that concern, and that’s fine. My approach to social media is going to be different than your approach to social media, just because we may have different goals. And we may come from different places for someone else that may not be making the silly videos. It may be describing their experiences working in house or at a firm, some tips they can share or some experiences they have. And so you all have an opportunity to showcase our personalities and you don’t have to copy. What’s worked for somebody else. You want to be yourself. So that’s what I would say. The folks were interested. And I think it’s a great opportunity.

Rob Hanna (20:52):

Yeah. I couldn’t agree more, Alex. I think you put that so, so well, and that point around authenticity, you don’t want to look, try and copy others. You want to be you and who better than being you than you. So yeah. I encourage people to absolutely go out and do it just like you said, and we’re obviously big fans here at the legally speaking podcast, but it’s not the only podcast out there. You also host your own very, very successful podcast meeting of the minds. So what can listeners expect to hear from you?

Alex Su (21:20):

Absolutely. I’m meeting of the minds. We started off by really talking only to in-house lawyers, mainly general counsel about their career journeys, their views on technology, but we’re expanding it. And we’re also trying to convert it to a webinar or live format. And so it’s really going to be an ongoing dialogue about the future of law, the future of practice of law, especially as it relates to in-house legal operations. And so for folks who are interested in learning about what skills will be important, how to take advantage of their legal position to grow in their careers, how to hear about career journeys, a very successful lawyers who from the outside may have had a linear path, but as they were going through it, I had a tougher time. Those are the stories that we’ll be sharing. And I’m hoping to get out of my speakers, my guest speakers. So for folks who are interested, it’s called meeting of the minds. If you look it up, it’s also attached to the Evisort name, which is my company. You could find it on Google, Apple, Spotify, but that’s what the show is about. And I appreciate you letting me talk a little bit about it. It’s been an exciting project for me.

Rob Hanna (22:14):

I think you’re doing a cracking job with it. So I urge our listeners to definitely check it out. And I’d love to say it stops there, but you do keep very, very busy. You also run monthly networking sessions on zoom, which I know very well subscribed, but what made you start running these? And, and again, what do people tend to get involved with?

Alex Su (22:33):

Yeah, so I never thought I’d be doing meetups. I also never thought I’d be doing video, but here we are in 2020, I went through a stretch where work was a bit light right around the beginning of COVID. And so I thought, well, I’m going to do a zoom, meet up with my friends from law school and see if anybody on LinkedIn wants to join. And I put it up on LinkedIn and 40 people joined and I thought, well, wow, this is, there’s so much interest in this. And so I decided to turn it into a regular thing as work has gotten busy, I’ve kind of scaled back the frequency, but it essentially is a mix of a networking meetup. So you can meet new people and there’s a chat function so that people can list their LinkedIn profiles and connect with one another. So it’s a great opportunity, for people to network.

Alex Su (23:10):

And sometimes we bring on guest speakers. It’s almost like a podcast, but it’s a live format. People can learn and hear from speakers about their very own career journeys. You’ll notice there’s a theme here. A lot of people want to share their advice from their own careers, things that they didn’t realize about the legal profession, but it’s been really successful in the sense that it helps get a lot of stories out. People are really thirsting and dying for content relating to their professional careers. They would love to meet one another. And so we’ve been doing that for now. It’s now been about six or seven months. I think people are coming back to it from all over the world because they want to learn more and consume content. So that’s been an interesting ride and you know, we’re going to keep doing it about once a month cadence and we’ll let people get to meet one another and get lucky. You know, I think people have developed business through it. Folks have found jobs. And so it’s been an exciting project for me.

Rob Hanna (24:00):

I must say I’m a real big fan. So I look forward to them continuing on. Before we wrap up the million dollar question, I guess, as a man, who’s very passionate about legal tech. We get asked there’s lots and lots and lots. What do you think the future of law looks like? Are we going to have robots in the firm, in the sort of in-house team? Or does it look like to you the future?

Alex Su (24:22):

We’re not going to have robots in the law firms in our lifetimes. I think a lot of times when, when we talk about AI, it can be sensational in a news media for lawyers. I think you will not be able to take away that human judgment, where AI right now is really effective. And this is true for Evisort is we’re able to remove some of the most manual tasks. So for us, it’s extracting key parts of a contract that typically would require maybe an intern to do, or maybe even in a paralegal or a junior lawyer, people are just doing this work. In-house all sorts of people are doing this manual work themselves. We’re automating that. That’s where the AI comes in. It’s going to be able to tell you which clause is what,we’re not going to be able to tell you, Hey, this is how you should redraft the clause or this one’s risky.

Alex Su (25:07):

This one’s not, we’re not quite there yet. So I don’t think that people have to worry about their jobs right now. Now having said that the pace of technology is just growing so fast, that there are going to be some skills that will be replaced by machines, and there’s going to be others that will not be. So the ones that will be replaced or anything that requires copy and paste, you know, routine, manual tasks, you want to stay away from that, but you’ll always have a place in the legal industry. If you do things that are more higher level like complex thinking or interpersonal relationships, change management, anything that involves a human component or a judgment component, I think is very, very safe. And so for listeners who are thinking about how to navigate their careers in the coming decades, I would say focus on what’s high value. Don’t become the person who’s really good at running searches or copying and pasting, be the person who has got client relationships, who has the ability to put together a high level strategic plans or complex work. And knowing that it may not happen overnight, but you need to develop that skill because that’s ultimately what provides value for clients. And that can’t be taken away, by robots.

Rob Hanna (26:11):

Yeah. And that’s a really, really good piece of advice to, to end on there, Alex, simply around that kind of unique scale, almost making yourself invaluable and irreplaceable. And if people want to follow you or get in touch with you about anything we’ve discussed today, what’s the best way for them or platforms to do that. Feel free to shout out any weblinks or social medias. Share it with us.

Alex Su (26:32):

Yeah, that’s great. And I appreciate that. Uh, you can find me on LinkedIn where I’m most active. It’s not hard. Alex SU, and you can also sign up for my email list. I send out a weekly newsletter projects I’m working on, but also links to register for meetups, you know, meet and talk on our meetups. They’re usually attended by about 20 or 30 people. So it’s not a huge group, but at the same time, everyone can have a great dialogue. So if you want to, it’s. A L E X S U.C O. That’s the address. And you can sign up right there. I’ll provide you the links, Robert, but I appreciate you letting me shout those out.

Rob Hanna (27:02):

Yeah, no, it’s been an absolute pleasure having you on the show, Alex, thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed it. And I would like to just wish you lots of continued success with your career, but from all of us on the Legally Speaking Podcast over and out. Thanks for having me. Robert, thank you for listening to this episode of the legally speaking podcast. If you enjoyed the show and want to help support us, remember to leave us a rating and review on Apple iTunes, you can also support the show and gain exclusive benefits, bonus content, and much more by signing up to our Patrion page, which is www.patreon.com/legallyspeakingpodcast. Thanks for listening.