How Tech Can Make the Practice of Law More Sustainable – S5E16

00:03 Robert Hanna:

Welcome to the Legally Speaking Podcast. I’m your host Rob Hanna. This week I’m delighted to be joined by Tony Thai and Jace Lynch. Together, Tony and Jace have co-founded HyperDraft, a full-service document generation service, the post service generation customizes documents based on client forms with quick and reliable results. Tony is the chief engineer of HyperDraft previously working as an attorney at Goodwin, Nixon Peabody and Bryan Cave. Jace is the CEO of HyperDraft, who previously worked at Goodwin as an associate. So a very, very warm welcome Tony and Jace.

00:39 Tony Thai and Jace Lynch:

Thanks, Rob. Thank you. Happy to be here.

00:41 Robert Hanna:

Our absolute pleasure to have you on the show. And before we dive into both of your amazing experiences and achievements today, we do have a customary question here on the Legally Speaking Podcast, which is on the scale of one to 10, 10 being very real. What would you rate the hit TV series Suits in terms of its reality? Tony, coming to you first?

01:05 Tony Thai:

Oh, man, I’m gonna get so much flack for this. Scene eight, I’m gonna say. I know. We can spend at some point. Yeah,

01:23 Robert Hanna:

Okay, that’s okay, Jace you sticking with a high number?

01:27 Jace Lynch:

I’m gonna go three at the most. I practice in California, no one is wearing a suit. If you’re wearing a suit, you’re in trouble.

01:36 Tony Thai:

I got yelled at for not wearing a tie. You and I don’t know

01:41 Jace Lynch:

Where you work. But that’s not my vibe. That is not my journey. Well,

01:44 Robert Hanna:

We will average it out at about five and a half, which I think is probably about right. So but thank you so much, both for joining us today. But let’s start at the beginning. Like we always like to with our guests. Could you talk us through your career journeys? And tell us a little bit about your background? Tony, would you like to go first?

02:02 Tony Thai:

Yeah, no happy to. So my background is a little bit odd. Because I well, first off, this is my second job. It was my second career being in the legal field. My first career was as a software engineer. And then I realized no joke. This is I realized how much I was paying lawyers. So my thought process was, if I go to law school, I’ll save on legal bills. not doing enough research on how much loss so I actually have zero intention of practicing law but started a software engineer went to law school so I could avoid paying legal bills, and then became a lawyer, and was a M&A and venture finance attorney for a number of years, both adult at a law firm and in house at companies. And then yeah, we started, we started HyperDraft. So now I’m here. Yeah,

03:02 Robert Hanna:

Thanks so much for sharing that. And you’ve been some incredible parts of your journey. Super successful. But Jace, tell us a bit about your journey.

03:10 Jace Lynch:

Yeah, absolutely. Mindset. I didn’t have an engineering background and decided I wanted to no longer be lawyers. I wanted to be paid as a lawyer. So I, I worked for the University, I went to law school. And so I decided to, you know, working one job isn’t enough. I should also go to law school on top of it went through I my school was in the middle of Silicon Valley. So there was all this tech happening around me. So when I when I left, I was looking for a firm that was really tech oriented. And that’s how I ended up at Goodwin. So my practice really focused on emerging companies and venture capital work. And then a lot of that on the other side were a lot of tech mergers and acquisitions. And then that is I think my second month into it is when I met Tony, on and then we basically every single deal I had was with him my partner mentor at one point was like, you know, you can work with attorneys other than Tony, you know, I told him like, have you told Tony that

04:09 Tony Thai:

You should you should Jace, you should share when we first met what I said to you, because it was it was a bit aggressive. And Rob, I just want to preface this. I didn’t mean it this way. I just in my head. I was like, I’m super busy. So I only have enough time to train one or two associates and I knew I was going to leave to do this venture anyways. And so I’m like, I’m not going to spend a ton of time training 15 Different associates, so I only have time for two. And Jace was one of the unlucky few that fell into my

04:42 Jace Lynch:

Target staffing request.

04:44 Robert Hanna:

Well that segues nicely, because I was actually gonna say how did you meet and where did the interest in HyperDraft stem from so Jace take it on?

04:52 Jace Lynch:

Yeah, so I it was my second month at the firm second month as an attorney, you know, just didn’t even know what anything was or who anyone was? Get a set request? Hey, do you want to join this financing? The senior on it is Tony tied down in Santa Monica. And I’m like, Sure. And, you know, he talks to me, he’s like, Hey, listen, you know, I have a lot of stuff going on. I don’t have a whole lot of time on my hands. I only have like Tony said, I only have time to trade one or two associates. If I train you, it’s an investment. And you need to work with me. Like, basically. I mean, I don’t think he’s said forever. But it’s basically you need to work with me forever. You need to stick with me, because I’m wasting my investment. And of course, like, I’m young, and I’m just like, oh, okay. Yeah. I don’t think I’m allowed to say no. So that kicked off that that relationship into I think it was a financing and then two mergers. And then well, he says, like, Hey, join this merger, it’s gonna be fun. I’m like, okay, great. He’s like, you know, what, why don’t you do the second merger, it’ll be fun. It’s a, the first ones by side, this one sell side, you can see it from both angles. And I’m like, that sounds like a great idea. That was not a great idea. If you’re a first year associate, and you don’t know what you’re doing at all. Don’t be on a merger where it’s just you and a senior associate. Step one is.

06:11 Tony Thai:

And by the way, we have it is fun jar for me, because I say that a lot. Like, this is gonna be super fun, guys, and we’re just groaning and be like, alright, Tony. Yeah,

06:24 Jace Lynch:

Yeah, as soon as it’s fun means run.

06:27 Robert Hanna:

Okay, just drop the FBR you got it, got it. But, you know, you’ve obviously built a flourishing, you know, partnership relationship. And you’ve now built, you know, HyperDraft as a toolbox for attorneys, you know, you tackle the tedious aspects of obviously, being a lawyer. So, you know, HyperDraft is focusing on building tools to work the way lawyers are not only building tools for lawyers, but would you in practice. So Tony, would you like to explain further what HyperDraft is and how it works in reality?

06:57 Tony Thai:

Yeah, so, you know, our quick elevator pitches were document generation coupled with AI, to, to basically build these document generators that pump out documents that our clients are familiar with, and that they use, one of the shortcomings we saw in the market was, there was a low adoption of document generators, because everybody had to use a standard form. And if you practice law, you realize that that’s just not practical, like, you’d have to learn somebody else’s form, you’re just way more accustomed to your own language. And you usually have a library or a database of that stuff. So really, it was us trying to solve our own problems by saying, hey, you know, I’d love to use this document generator. But I have caught like 15 of my own forms that I want to use. And I don’t want to have to relearn a whole new set of forms. And that’s how we set out to solve that problem. And that’s what we did with building our first product type or draft. So that’s what we currently do. And yeah, the user receptions been awesome. Yeah,

08:02 Robert Hanna:

I mean, it’s doing fantastically successful thus far. And, you know, congratulations to what you’ve done as part of your journey. So Jace you know, HyperDraft is obviously focusing on that document automation, as Tony was saying, Do you believe that sort of document automation can make practicing law more sustainable? Because we hear about a lot of the hours and so forth? And you just did a little bit earlier on the conversation? So if so why?

08:27 Jace Lynch:

Yeah, absolutely. I think document automation is the only way to make the practice more sustainable. And I think, honestly, it might be a little hyperbolic, but it’s the only way to make the practice survivable, going forward, just client demands are going higher and higher billable hours, we just see like year over year, they’re going up. And especially this last couple years, with pandemic just like mass resignations, just because it’s not what people want. And it’s just not, you know, really a good time for them. So I think document automation is the way to make it, move forward. You know, cut out the tedium, cut the useless hours that you don’t need to be spending on that. And then you can focus on actually being a lawyer do the things you went to law school to do to be an advisor to be a counselor. And then also sleep, spend time with your loved ones. When I was going through the thick of it. I noticed, after a couple really bad weeks, my sense of humor, kind of like went away and I feel like my personality started to kind of just get really bland, because I just didn’t have any mental capacity to like really do anything extra other than just kind of work. And then once like deals eased off, I kind of felt myself coming back into it. And I felt like I was a better colleague, I was a better lawyer, I could connect to clients better. So I think document automation is the only way to make that happen. And give lawyers that time back to be themselves too and be better lawyers as well. Honestly, I had document automation solutions if I had the stuff that Tony’s building, still a little angry at him for holding out on me during the really fun mergers. But you know, that’s a different conversation. But if I had the kind of tooling that we’re building now, I would probably still be around.

10:05 Robert Hanna:

Yeah, I think you make such a good point in general about how tech is here to benefit, you know, to the overall wellbeing, it’s here to be of benefit, you know, there’s a big worry, oh, there’s gonna be robot lawyers, and there’s going to be nothing for us left to do and blah, blah, blah, no, this is a real complimentary. You’d like to say this gives people the chance to reignite why they wanted to become a lawyer, you know, they can’t be robotic, and just work 24/7. And, you know, expected of that is not good for overall wellbeing. And so it’s great that you are creating solutions that are really going to help people not only professionally but also on their personal life. So it’s a really valuable thing that you’re doing. And Tony, back to you because you wrote an app, you know, NORAD, you know, taking commands through SMS, which sounds super cool. So would you say that contributed to your interest in document engineering?

10:53 Tony Thai:

Yeah, I mean, talk about a throwback man.

10:58 Robert Hanna:

In 1924.

11:03 Tony Thai:

Instant Messenger. That’s what that’s what I built it off of. Yeah, I mean, all of it. It’s, it’s really funny, because when I, in how, like, experience always stacks up, so I always hear these people and, you know, we help people to or just lend a friendly ear to folks who are thinking about transitioning jobs, careers, all that stuff. And I, the thing I hear a lot of is like, Oh man, I just I feel like I wasted so much time doing this other job. I love seeing like, skill stacking is what I call it, like, all the skills that I’ve built up no matter how stupid right in like high school, making stupid graphics, that’s the same skills that we use to make graphics for our current app and our marketing materials. Just skill stacking over time has definitely helped me out and, and the funny funniest thing is when I became a lawyer when I decided, okay, you know what, I’m gonna practice law. I actually thought to myself, what a waste of time all those years spending, learning about building enterprise software solutions, what a useless skill to have. And you know, 10 years later, turn around, it’s like, oh, all those skills I’ve built up. Yeah, they’re super relevant. Everything I’ve built, even video games, there’s some concepts that we’ve built in I like this is our competitive edge is like, all the experience that we’ve built up as a team. It all gets applied, you know, from our CFO who is got experience in finance, and all these other industries, to me building stupid video games when I was a kid. All those things go into our app, and it adds a little wins you too. Yeah, there is, um, you know, I’ll share it with you guys. I actually haven’t said this to anyone. So besides you and your listeners are the only ones know there is an Easter egg in HyperDraft. There’s a little mini video game in it that I built when I was a kid that I decided to put in there as well as a as a as a fun Easter egg to find so that’s the

13:05 Robert Hanna:

Difference so is on in due course. But I think again, you make some great points, Tony, you know, and always talk to people about you know, treat your career as stepping stones, you know, you’re collecting experience along the way everything can help build to your overall profile and skill set. And I think you articulated so well. You know how, particularly from going from different experiences can help complement you throughout your career. So really, really, thanks for sharing that. Time for a quick break from the show. Are you a legal aid practitioner in England and Wales specializing in civil or criminal legal aid matters? If you are this message is for you. As a legal aid solicitor, you don’t have time to waste on legal aid case management software that doesn’t work to your needs. That’s why Clio has developed a quicker, more accurate and affordable solution. A legal aid solicitors in England and Wales. It could save you hours in your month, particularly when it comes to end of month invoicing and claims to the legal aid agency. To see how it all works. Visit cleo.com. That’s Clio.com/uk/legal-aid/. Now back to the show. Jace is back to you because you’re obviously a first generation undergraduate, your law school graduate, highly successful then went on to be an associate Goodwin for a good year and a half. So you know, what skills did you learn from being an associate and how have you utilize them with regards to working with HyperDraft?

14:39 Jace Lynch:

Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you for that. I feel a lot better about myself. Now. Actually, that was that was. Yeah, I think the biggest skill that I took from being an associate it’s just being learning to not necessarily be comfortable but as comfortable as you can be with uncomfortable situations and not knowing what you’re doing. You know, not kind of like treading through college and law school for the first time in my family, for the rest of my family, and then going into being an associate, I really didn’t have like, a good sense of what I was going into. I had what people told me and most of them were like, yeah, don’t be a lawyer look great. That’s super helpful. I’m already doing this. And I’m already have the debt. So you know, yeah, we’re going to do it. But I think just learning to navigate those waters, where you just you’re not sure what, what’s coming next, what’s on the horizon in deal work, you’re like, if your first deal, you don’t know what each step of the process looks like, you have your task, and then you do it. And then you don’t know what’s going on. Beyond that, so being able to try to figure it out and be okay with that. To Tony’s credit, he treated me more like a midlevel on our deals, probably to his sincere pain in trying to deal with a junior as a midlevel. But I got a client, I want to like interact more with clients and people who were like very high up in their company isn’t someone that’s coming in, like at a junior level, who’s never had that kind of contact with people in these industries. That was, you know, a big, dark pool of like, I don’t know how to interact with these people yet. I’ve never done that. So learning how to think on your feet and be able to handle that process is I think one of the big things you’ll learn as an associate and just how to be self-reliant, and figure it out. And then moving into a startup and, you know, framework, guess what, there is zero roadmap, you do not know what’s happening day after day. I mean, I know what’s happening, but I don’t, you know, you never know what’s gonna come next. It’s always a learning process. So just being able to navigate that and having those skills like, hey, you know what, I got this, I can figure it out, whatever gets thrown into you. I think that’s a huge takeaway.

16:34 Robert Hanna:

Yeah, no, and thank you so much for sharing that. And I think it is such valuable for people listening in in terms of careers, and you know, things to do and whether they can have that confidence to make it. So thank you so much for your insights. And, Tony, you know, you’ve worked for some of the big law firms out there, you were working at Brian cave, and Nixon, Peabody and Goodwin as corporate IP attorney assisted all of that, I guess, help assist you in building HyperDraft.

17:01 Tony Thai:

Yeah, no, absolutely. All of that contributed. And I think, you know, when folks look at my resume, or they look at my work history, they think like, you know, this guy’s jumped around a lot. They might. But it was all purposeful, right? I started this company years ago, it wasn’t something we started on a whim. And a part of that was we need to do research about these institutions and these organizations to see if it’s, if these are endemic problems, right problems that are in every single law firm, for every type of lawyer, or is it just this one particular law firm or this one particular office? So working at big firms really taught me that? Sounds so cheesy, it’s so it’s so much about the people that you work with, that make the difference of whether or not something’s a good experience or a bad experience? And so you’re like, what the heck does that have to do with the software? That’s the point, our business and when people get confused, because the way we pitch it is like, everybody thinks of us as a tech company, you know, supplanting lawyers or making them more efficient. The reality of it is, we’re here to service lawyer right at the end of the day, and help them be happier and operate at a higher level at a more streamlined level with their colleagues and their clients. When people have more time to sleep, to think, to spend time on a matter when they’re not just in the mire of like technical document editing and stupid stuff like that. There’s, there’s so much happening there. And then that people the need to connect with other people. So working begins to make real realize that it has so little to do with like, whether the company has this tech or not, it’s whether or not this company has the right people mix and has the right people mix plus the time mix. And so when we set off to build HyperDraft, that’s kind of our core focus is how do you build an experience for these, these users that help emphasize those aspects of the practice? Right, be more human and have more time? So I know that was a like a cheesy, highfalutin answer, but it’s

19:19 Robert Hanna:

It’s so important. You know, we’re seeing just trend changes in professionalism, the whole shift, you know, it’s human to human. You know, we’re all people at the end of the day, and I absolutely concur with what you say. And it’s such an important point. Because, you know, everyone expects the lawyers to be so perfect and know everything and be invincible, and that is not good for the overall wellbeing of lawyers and let the tech do what it’s there to do to remove all of that wellbeing an extra pressure and stress and having to be a perfectionist. Every point I guess that leads nicely JSON to my next point around, you know, as legal tech inevitably comes more prevalent and you’re at the forefront of this, how do you think it will continue to change the legal industry? More broadly.

20:01 Jace Lynch:

Yeah, I think it’s gonna just shift into junior folks getting more actual lawyering done earlier on in their career. So as we kind of, if you think about kind of the first things that legal tech is going to take over, it’s not going to replace a lawyer, there’s no way that’s going to happen. You need to have that knowledge, that strategy. That’s what clients are paying for. That’s what the value that they see in their lawyers. And then all kind of the low hanging fruit that ends up being more junior associate work, that’s going to start getting automated, which means you still need to be new lawyers going into the field, it means they’re going to be doing real substantive legal work earlier on in their career. So I think it’s going to lead to a kind of a stronger younger cohort of lawyers earlier on the careers able to handle more complicated matters. And then I think it’s just going to lead to a lot more retention in the fields, I think, I’m gonna throw out a, I heard going through law school that, you know, the average legal career is about five years. So hopefully, that number will be going up. Because it is it is a great profession to the end. It’s just it’s currently it is very painful. So I think it’s going to, you’re going to have happier lawyers, and it’s going to be a more collegial experience. And that human interaction that Tony was talking about, is going to be a lot better.

21:18 Robert Hanna:

Yeah, and it’s something we’re so passionate here on the Legally Speaking Podcast, but advocating for so I’m really grateful to both of you for coming on and sort of highlighting that. And so Tony, back to you, you both currently have a Fishbowl Live Series where you give advice to attorneys. So if you’d like to tell us a little bit more about this.

21:38 Tony Thai:

Yeah, it’s actually something that our Head of Marketing turned us on to which is this platform called fishbowl and they give out, anonymously, like we give out advice to attorneys that reach out to us. And it was really a way for us to give back to the community. But also, I mean, this is kind of why we’re on your show, right? Like, we it’s not so much to push the product as it is to share two things, which is one, like there are solutions out there, I people are gonna hate you for this special investors. I don’t care if you don’t use HyperDraft, I care that you’re not getting enough sleep and you’re unhappy, and you’re depressed. Like that’s the stuff that we’re trying to solve for. And if it results in you not using HyperDraft, but using a different solution, I’m okay with that. Now, we’d like to think we built a superior. So you can always drive you know, the second tier car, that’s perfect. Okay. When you’re when you’re when you’re ready to upgrade, you let us know. But um, yeah, it’s been super rewarding. And I mean, I’ve been so far removed from like, the more junior level work that I sometimes forget that pain. So when I talk about, like staying up all night, and you know, pulling all-nighters that that happened, even, you know, as of the last law firm, I was out there, there are things about being a junior, and kind of wading through your, your first few years of practice was really scary. And I forgot about it until people ask me questions. And I’m in my mind, of that ties sleeping in my eyes to three days out of the week. Yeah, what did I do to get out of that? I mean, I quit, I took a different job. But, you know, there were different ways that, you know, I used, you know, I was able to sustain that, that that type of lifestyle for at least a little bit of time, and you know, recovery methods, stuff like that. So it’s been super rewarding. And I mean, Jason won’t speak for you, but like, how do you feel about the process? Or the, you know, the fishbowl experience? Yeah, I

23:53 Jace Lynch:

Think it’s been kind of the, I’ll do a lot of the moderating on these lives. And then so I’ll kind of get a lot of the direct messages and the questions from the audience and everyone, as we’re appreciative of, like, you know, what we’re doing on that, and then having like, really genuine questions, like, they want to be lawyers. This is what they set out to do. But it’s just like the industry just kind of being what they expected it to. And it’s not, it’s not treating them nicely, to be honest. So I think just seeing that feedback, and the people being in leadership about the kind of like what we’re doing, and then being able to give some advice, from our experience to kind of like, help shape the industry and hopefully push it in a better direction. I think is very rewarding. I think that these lives have been great. And it’s really good to just kind of like reach out to the broader legal industry, as well. Yeah, no,

24:45 Robert Hanna:

Absolutely. And I think you’ve done a wonderful job of articulating there how you are helping and with a real purpose, and I think that’s super important. And so sticking with US you know, both of you are practitioners in the US, you know, what advice would you give to those perhaps looking to break into the US legal market. Was there anything you wish you had known perhaps at the beginning of your legal journey that you know now?

25:09 Jace Lynch:

Yeah, yeah, I would say for breaking into the US market now is probably the best time as any to do. So firms are really are really trying to hire as fast as possible. It’s a hot market. So if there was ever a time it’s to do it now. I would, you know, basically just kind of look at, you know, transferable skills. I think, data privacy is a huge way to break into this market folks or need. Privacy attorneys, especially with GDPR. So a lot of these big firms are looking for GDPR experts, where you don’t necessarily need to be like, you have a strong base in US law. Because obviously, it’s not a US law. So that’s a good way to break in as well. And then I would say it’s also, you know, it probably isn’t a bad idea. If you get an offer, you can look at maybe a step down firm, get some experience there. And then you can go back up to a higher tier firm. If you’re looking as well.

26:05 Tony Thai:

Can I add something to this? Rob?

26:08 Robert Hanna:

Yeah, please share your share your thoughts?

26:11 Tony Thai:

Yeah. So I get a lot of questions on this. And so I’ve, I’ve had to think through this. And I’ve had some friends who are from other countries that have tried to break into the market. So the two things I’ll say, are one, first and foremost, like, don’t try to become a US law expert. Like I first off there are there attorneys in this country that are not experts. So I wouldn’t do that. Mostly what these law firms are looking for when they’re looking at candidates outside of the states. It’s they’re looking for the ability to learn quickly, right, like any good attorney, learn quickly be independent, have good bedside manner. So the ability to talk to clients, both externally and internally rates, also service partners and other colleagues. And then the second thing I would say, is really leverage your experience in your current jurisdiction. Because a lot more deals are cross border. We’re always looking like I was always looking for an expert in other, you know, other jurisdictions and Australia and UK, in, you know, EU, I was always looking for someone that I could give a ring to, and just be like, Hey, man, I got a stupid question on privacy or got this stupid question on local tax rules, do we get hit here? And so actually leveraging your current expertise is a fantastic sign of both the ability to own you skeletal, it’s your lobbies, lobbies, law, firm discounting. Yeah,

27:53 Robert Hanna:

I think that’s super important. Advice. And you know, ultimately, at the end of the day is what I’m a big advocate for having mentors and people that can help you at the start and throughout your journey. And so even Tony, you mentioned, you know, around mentorship, I think earlier on, it’s so, so important, but really sage advice. And I’ve thoroughly enjoyed learning more about HyperDraft than what you’re up to and where you’re going. So, Jace if people want to follow or get in touch with you about anything we discussed today, what’s the best way for them to contact you?

28:22 Jace Lynch:

Yeah, I think the most direct ways you can go to our website, hyperdraft.ai, you can submit a form submission. We are also on Twitter and LinkedIn, Instagram, and also on Facebook. But I think if you want to get in touch with Tony, right directly, you can send us a DM on LinkedIn, it’s super easy to find us there. Or you can also shoot us an email. My email is Jace@hyper-draft.ai and Tony’s is Tony@hyper-draft.ai

28:51 Robert Hanna:

Yeah, and Tony, anything else you would like to say from your side or with regards to getting in touch with you guys?

28:58 Tony Thai:

Now I’ve just, yeah, we’re here and willing to help. So just let us know how we can be useful.

29:04 Robert Hanna:

Yeah. Well, thank you both. So much, Tony. And Jason’s been an absolute pleasure having you on the show absolutely love what you’re doing with HyperDraft not only to check, make change with the revolution of legal tech, but to really protect and nurture the next generation of talent coming through to make a happier, healthier, legal workforce. So really, really appreciate you wishing you lots of continued success, but from all of us on the Legally Speaking Podcast over and out. This week’s review comes from Maia from My Legal Career, the best legal podcast five stars buried packed full of information. These podcasts by an incredible and diverse guest speakers provide so much value to both aspiring lawyers, and the legal community in general 10 out of 10 Maia I thank you so much for your kind words and review from all of us at the Legally Speaking Podcast. We appreciate you!