On today’s Legally Speaking Podcast, I am delighted to be joined by Matthew Claughton.

Matthew is the Managing Director of Olliers Solicitors, one of the UK’s leading criminal defence firms. Since taking full control of the business in 2018, he has helped steer Olliers through a major period of growth, quadrupling turnover, strengthening its reputation in privately funded criminal defence, and building a firm widely recognised for its expertise in pre-charge engagement, serious crime, fraud, regulatory work and crisis management. He is ranked as a Leading Partner by The Legal 500, has been recognised as the Legal 500 Northern Powerhouse Criminal Lawyer of the Year, and is widely regarded as one of the standout names in high-stakes criminal defence.

But this conversation is about more than rankings and results. It is about what really makes an outstanding criminal defence firm today. How do you build a practice around preventing charges, not just winning at trial? How do you lead through growth without losing standards? And what does it take to stay independent, ambitious and trusted in one of the most pressured areas of legal practice?

So why should you be listening in? 

You can hear Rob and Matthew discussing:

– Preventing Charges Through Proactive Defence

– Quadrupling Turnover with Strategic Leadership

– Client-First Culture Driving Sustained Growth

– Developing Future Criminal Defence Talent

– Calm Judgment Under Intense Pressure.

Connect with Matthew Claughton here – https://uk.linkedin.com/in/matthewclaughton

Transcript

We have the experience. 

We love showcasing our experience, our content. We always try and make it educational and have authority and be trusted content. And we encourage staff to contribute content because it’s good for them, it’s good for their careers, it’s good to showcase their knowledge and it benefits the firm as well. So we work hard on that. 

It’s that calmness, the level of confidence, and the ability to reset and go through things methodically that’s really quite important. We make sure we match the right clients with the right lawyers to deal with problems as they arrive. 

On today’s legally speaking podcast, I’m delighted to be joined by Matthew Claughton. Matthew is the managing director of Oliz Solicitors, one of the UK’s leading criminal defense firms. Since taking full control of the business in 2018, he’s helped steer Ollyers through major period of growth, quadrupling turnover, strengthening its reputation in a privately funded criminal defense.

And building a firm widely recognized for its expertise in pre charge engagement, serious crime, fraud, regulatory work, and crisis management. He is ranked as a leading partner by the Legal five hundred, has been recognized as the Legal five hundred Northern Powerhouse Criminal Lawyer of the Year, and is widely regarded as one of the standout names in high state criminal defence. But this conversation is more than the rankings and results, it’s what it

really takes to be an outstanding criminal defense firm today, how to build a practice around preventing charges, not just winning at trial, and how do you lead through growth without losing standards? And what does it take to stay independent, ambitious, and trusted in one of the most pressured areas of legal practice? So a very big warm welcome to the show, Matthew. Hi, you okay? Very much so, very much looking forward to today’s discussion. But we’ve got a couple of quick fire icebreak questions before we get into it. Firstly

What is your favourite beverage and what is your preferred choice of footwear on a typical work day? Okay, okay. Beverage in the morning, it’s always a coffee. but at the end of the week, nice hot summer day, it’s got to be maybe a lager at the end of the garden. So it’s that d that depends. It depends whether you’re in the morning or at the end of the week. There we go. And on your footwear? Rob, I don’t know what it is.

I don’t know. It’s it’s kind of a brogy thing. It’s comfortable. So that that’s what I wear. And I’m also really appreciating the commitment to taking the shoe off to show our audience as well. Thank you. That is going above and beyond. Not everyone has managed to do that. But before we go down that rabbit hole, quick fire another question. What’s one piece of legal tech or everyday tech that you’re now relying on that you would have thought would have been impossible to dream of using many years ago? Well

You’ve got to remember how old I am and when I started. So I started in the eighties. We had no computer, it was typewriters, not a fax machine or anything like that. we were contacted by the police, by pagers. So the the big thing for me in my career was the arrival of the mobile phone and and I probably had one. I was an early adopter, I think, around about nineteen ninety.

And it meant that you could be contacted by the police in the middle of the night, without them having to go to the pager and so on. So that’s the big one for me. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, for me it’s it’s how I run everything now off my my mobile phone. And it wasn’t a smartphone and it was no internet, but at least you were contactable. Yep, absolutely. And I guess that leads nicely to the start of your career. Would you mind telling us a bit about your background and career journey and what drew you to criminal defence work?

I passed my degree in 1985. I didn’t really know what to do. So I I was not enrolled on enrolled on a solicitor’s qualifications, lost site finals. I decided to take a year out. I became an advice worker and worked at a citizens advice bureau and got good at it. I got good at listening to people’s problems, diagnosing them and delivering an answer. And I also used to represent claimants at benefits tribunals.

And I realized I could make a difference for my clients. And I was only 21, 22, and it gave me a lot of confidence. And so I decided to s do my solicitor’s exams and then qualify as a solicitor. So I went from not really knowing what to do with my law degree to realizing I wanted to work with people, and it it was it was with individual clients. It wasn’t necessarily with, for example,

contracts or conveyancing or anything like that. It had to be client focused where I really felt I could make a difference for an individual. Yeah, absolutely. And you have done that, I mean, incredible career which we’re going talk more about. And I guess so why criminal defence for you though? It’s obviously one of the most intense, very high pressure area of the profession. What made you want to sp particularly specialise within that career area? I think there’s something in me that’s interested in the area. So that was that was that was

I definitely had an interest in crime. and then when I started going to a police station, or I mean I just thought it was so exciting, being in a police station, being in a prison, being in the cells, in the courts, that to me was was really exciting. And so you put those together and then add to that the fact that you can do you could you really can make a difference.

on someone’s life and it’s not anyone else, you’re on your own at the police station for sure. You’re on your own. And it’s for you to make that difference. and when that individual has got the might of the state bearing down on them, and you’re the one person that they have to go to, that’s a it’s it’s a huge responsibility, but it’s also a privilege to be in that position. So all those factors combined for me to

By by the time I finished my training there was only one thing I wanted to do and that was that was crime. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, as I say, you’ve done so much incredible work over the years. But you’ve also said that you understand the pressure faced by the individuals under criminal investigation or indeed prosecution. So for listeners who may not have been close to that world and you’ve lived it, what is the emotional reality for clients in those first moments when they realise they are going under investigation? Well

The I think it’s probably most intense for the one in custody because they’ve been arrested sometimes for something really serious. They’ve been in a set. They’ve asked for a lawyer. The lawyer is on the way, but maybe the police say yet we’re not ready yet. It’s gonna be some time before we need you to come down. and when they see you, you are the first person they see that is on their side and the only person at that point. And I and I think you see people then

really, really at their most vulnerable and that is when your job kicks in and not only are you going to put them at ease in in you’re also then going to give the legal advice it’s going to put them in the best possible position to deal with what they’re up against. And sometimes sometimes it could be something that could lead to a life sentencing a a life sentence. So that’s your worst case scenario for these people.

And that’s exactly what I was gonna say. This is life changing stuff. So back to your point about the responsibility and and and pressure, but also the privilege for you to hopefully, you know, do your absolute best. I’m sure is is something that, you know, most of our listeners will get to resonate with throughout this discussion. you have said that the most effective criminal lawyer is one who prevents their client from being charged. So I think that is such a strong line, particularly. Can you perhaps unpack that a bit for us in terms of the pre charge engagement, what that actually means in practice?

And why you believe it is where the best criminal defence work actually often happens? What I would say is that the best day’s work isn’t necessarily securing an acquittal in the Crown Court. I mean there there are times when that’s what you have to do. But far better is is the day when you can ring your client up and say your case is being NFA’d, which means no further action, which means it’s over.

And that’s a client on the end of the phone really trying to digest. Do you mean it’s over? Do you mean you mean I it it’s yeah and I’m gonna email you and explain it to you properly, but I wanted to ring you first so that you knew as soon as possible it is definitely over, you’ve got your life back. And that is to me where we can have the best impact. And it’s it’s one of the things that sets us apart from other firms.

The last thing you want is for someone to be arrested and then released under investigation, whether that’s on bail or not, and asked to come back to the police station three months’ time, that then gets extended for another three months and another three months. And all they’re doing is relying on the police. They probably think sometimes think, Well, I didn’t do anything, I’m innocent, therefore I won’t be prosecuted. But the danger there is that they are sleepwalking into a

prosecution. And my position or or stance on this is that no, this is the time when you don’t forget about the police interview that took place yesterday, which was harrowing enough. Now go on the front foot, seek legal advice and look to instruct a lawyer who will be proactive in preventing you being prosecuted. And this is w this is pre charge representation, not just the police interview

But representing the client through to a decision being made. And it’s where the lawyer, the legal team, will go on the front foot, look to engage with the police. That can be formally, pre-charge engagement, or informally. Let them know that you are there. Let them know that they will be hearing a lot more from you. And during the pr the stage of pre-charge representation and pre-charge engagement with the police.

You can tease out weaknesses in a prosecution case, you could direct lines of inquiry, you could provide them with material that may be relevant to the investigation. Certainly that which would point away from your client clients’ guilds. And this you would then this process would culminate typically in representations against charge, in which you will argue, or we will argue.

that there should not be a prosecution because the charging standard contained within the code for crown prosecutors has not been met either because there is not a realistic prospect of a conviction or a prosecution is not in the public interest, and on that basis the case should be NFA, no further action. And the skill is to put

the investigator sorry, the the the the prosecutor in the position of a crown court litigator preparing the case for a trial and think we’ve no chance here this would not lead to a conviction so you have to get them to think imagine the case a year or two down the line before the Crown Court and get them to realise that this case they i it it would it would end with a not guilty verdict. And once you’ve done that

Your job is done because they should take the view, there’s not a realistic prospect of a conviction here. Let’s move on to the next case. And that’s fantastic for your client. That’s the main objective. they get their life back, they get they get to breathe, they get to think about other things, they get to enjoy their family, they get to do everything that everyone else can do. But it’s also good for the system because it means the wrong c wrong cases aren’t going before the courts. and the and the criminal justice system.

can focus on stronger cases that should be prosecuted. So that’s what we do. It’s one thing that really sets us apart from other firms. And we’re very, very good at it. Absolutely fantastic at it. And I love two things about that. Firstly is the the proactive nature that you’re suggesting there, actually, to go out there and be proactive and manage this as best as possible.

and also the fact that you pick up the phone, you know, that’s that human. You could ease anyone could just send an email. They’re not a number. You genuinely care for your clients. You’re going to follow up in writing. Perhaps it might be overwhelming on that call, but you’re taking the time to actually tell them and build that connection with your client and say, look, we’re here for you and wanted to let you know firsthand from me. I I really like that and that’s clearly why the firm has gone really successfully well. And let’s talk about sort of the formidable reputation for being proactive that the firm has has done on that pre-chart work and indeed trying to stop matters before they

They escalate. What do you think, in your opinion, separates a defence team that’s genuinely good at one of these things and one of those that’s just really reacting and already sort of just moving along with the parts? What do you think separates good from great? You have to look at the case and and look for the way the the the way through it so that you can you can see a way through it. And that’s the way we train our staff.

Look at look to pick out the weaknesses in the prosecution case, take on board the material that the client is able to provide you with, the exculpatry material, work towards engagement with the police, and and then start to join all the dots together, put the pieces into representations, and also put yourself in a position because our c our pre charge lawyers are also Crown Court litigators.

They prepare they represent people in the Crown Court, imagine the case in the Crown Courts. And then interwoven into that is a really expert knowledge of the role. Defendant’s lawyer has an expert knowledge of the role of the Crown Prosecutor and and what tests they’re supposed to apply. So all that goes ultimately into representations against charges to why they shouldn’t be prosecuted. That’s the key to it. It’s also and I’m not sure quite whether you question

Well dealt address this point, but it’s also that high, high level of empathy and understanding of your client’s predicament and the instructions that they’re giving to giving us. so and let’s face it, these clients choose us, they choose us because they’ve got a story to tell. They want to come to us because they believe we will get their point across and and the and that there’s an outcome that they desire. so

These these are clients who really, really do want to work with us and they’ve got a lot of input to give us. These aren’t the ones who are burying their heads in the sand. the these clients who are up for it and they’re up for the fight.

Yeah, and yes, I say, you you’ve done incredible work, it has to be said. You you talk about empathy there. One thing I want to talk about now is is judgment. We we sort of talked a little bit at the beginning of the conversation around technology and you know, the mobile phone and how that’s come in. You know, we’re in a world of AI now. Well, you I’m quite verbose about AI can do a lot of the work. People can shout about it and say it can’t and this, that and the other, but certain things are really important that AI can’t do at the moment where the lawyer should be

Focusing more of their time, which is on the the judgment, the risk balancing, that side of things. So you deal with very serious criminal allegations, the fraud, regulatory work, professional discipline, crisis management, a whole range of things. So in those kind of matters, how do you balance the sort of, you know, and legal analysis, the client management, but also that commercial judgment when everything can probably feel quite urgent, quite high risk? Yeah, talk us a bit more about your your view on that. Yeah, see what you mean, it it’s you you need

There may be urgent elements to a case, but you’ve always got to retain that sense of calm. And you can’t allow a client’s anxiety to affect your judgment or affect the steps that you are are going to take. So you always have to reset to and and go through it methodically, even if there’s a level of urgency to it. And the the client often needs to understand that.

That can can be quite an interesting challenge because the the client may have different ideas about how to resolve the situation. And ultimately it’s for them to understand that we have the experience and and it’s the outcome. and sometimes they have to be a little bit patient. so yeah, it’s it’s that calmness, the level of confidence and the ability to to reset and go through things methodically.

That’s really quite important. We can normally and I think this is this is really important, we normally make sure we match the right clients with the right lawyers to deal with problems as they arise. So that’s that’s quite an important element of it. That was where I was going to go next, actually. How do you do that? How do you make sure that you’re able to match, you know, what what what’s the s the the trick to that to ensure that seamless process for for all involved?

Okay, well we’ve got thirty solicitors, so that’s a good starting point. and a lot of firms simply can’t do that. And within criminal defence work there are subspecialisms. So you may have a lawyer who will deal with fraud or serious crime and not go not represent someone, for example, on an allegation of a sexual offence, but they will be very good in the other areas. And so

We will we can normally match the the expertise perfectly, but in addition to that, we often sort of think this is this is a particular temperament, a client with a particular temperament that would be well suited to the calm nature of this particular lawyer. So you can match them in terms of type of criminal defence or type of the allegation, but also the personality. And so because of because of that, I I think

we can get a right lawyer for for the right client, the right case, every time. And the numbers prove that. I mean the the success story of the firm since you know taking a hundred percent of control, I think in twenty eighteen, correct me if I’m wrong, but the firm has tripled turnover and strengthened its market petition, which is fantastic. And it it it’s really it has it’s gone up quite a lot in that period. I think by the time we get to July of this year it might be times four

so it it’s really, really good. So what do you think did what did you see then that needed to change when you took over and what key decisions have really helped drive that growth to perhaps inspire other law firm leaders out there? Okay, so in twenty eighteen one one of my colleagues, we were a similar age, around about fifty three, fifty four, and one of my colleagues said that he wanted to leave, he he was going to cash out, if you like, one of the partners.

And another one said, I thought I was going before you and I said, That’s okay, okay. But if if you let me take over, and they said this is the three of them, then you can all go. Two of you can stay physically, the the one who wants to leave can leave, and then I will have control. And then it was a it was possible for me to say the and these are this is what I want to do. And I worked really hard at the core.

the core focus of what we were going to do, and that was we’re great at serious crime, we’re great at fraud work, and we are really good or at pre-charge work, and that’s an area I really, really do want to develop. And also I realized that there’d been a lack of recruitment over recent years, and and if these guys were leaving and being

Essentially, in essentially cashing out, I needed something at the end of it. So one of the other areas of focus was a strong youth policy. And that’s it’s exactly what I called it. We still and that core focus is still there now, being really, really strong on a youth policy, so that we have continuity.

when it when I got that bit older, which of course I’m getting there now. No, you’re still a sprint chicken. So that was that was crucial. There’s no point in me staggering over the finishing line as I paid out my former partners and shareholders, and and then having a firm that withered on the fine during the next during the period. So it was crucial that we had a thriving firm for for for for me, as as I got as I hit

sort of sixty, early sixties and beyond. Yeah, no. So that was the idea. and and in addition to core focus, I’m losing track of the question here, Robert. Stop me if I’m going off in No, not at all. It’s just the journey, isn’t it? It’s the story. So so we had the focus, but we also wanted to make sure and I say we, it’s kind of me, but I was I was talking to other people. but we also had the we need to make sure that the values were right and it all had to be about the client.

And the ethics and also being a byword for excellence. So that was client service. and so they were they’re still they’re still our values, along with one or two others, but that’s it. And so it was all about getting that right. and you know, when we talk about focus, not looking at an opportunity to recruit someone who’s not into these areas of work, someone who might have a an an or or geographically not not convenient to us and things like that, not not taking on

Opportunities if they always go back to your focus, is this is this what we’re about? No, well we’re not we’re not doing that. And so that was how I set it out in in twenty eighteen. and we’ve remained quite rigid with that since, despite what’s happened since then, because we’ve had we’ve had a lockdown, we have a culture of working from home, we’ve had the arrival of AI, but we’ve stuck to that core focus and those core values, and they they’ve held us in good stead.

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Clio is the intelligent legal work platform built for modern solicitors, combining context-aware AI with trusted legal research to help you work smarter, not harder. Switching is easier than you might think. Clio’s dedicated migration teams handle your client and case data every step of the way, so you can focus on what matters most, your clients.

Plus award winning support twenty-four five via live chat, phone and email. Means help is always on hand when you need it. Visit Clio.com forward slash UK to find out why thousands of UK solicitors trust Clio. Now back to the show. You talked earlier about the training, and you mentioned there obviously the recruitment. Obviously, I’ve been running a legal recruitment business for over a decade now, so I’m I’m passionate about this in terms of specifically lawyers as well and enhancing their careers and

Find right roles and having more enriched careers. But when you’re hiring senior criminal defence talent, or indeed any talent, what are the non-negotiables beyond technical ability? Is it judgment, temperament, client care, or something else? I think we look at the track record of the lawyer. Then we we spend a lot of time talking to them and do do do we think they’d be a good fit for lawyers and can is it c absolutely obvious that they care about clients?

That a client is not a commodity, a client is not a sum of money. It has to be do they care about the clients and do they care about the quality of the work that they can deliver? and will they fit into and share the the core values of Olias? The core focus is less important because we decide the focus and it they they would they would be we would be speaking to them because it was part of our focus, but would they align with our values?

and I think that’s that’s the key thing. And that’s half our recruitment, the other half is the youngsters who join us, and that’s part of our youth policy. And these are people that we will train up. and they at the moment a significant number of them have joined from our intern scheme because we we place a huge amount of emphasis on attracting young entrants to the profession.

And I don’t just mean olias, I mean the the criminal defence profession. so every year we have a a series of week long intern programs and that’s eight eight people for eight weeks, one week each. We’ve been doing that since I don’t know if it’s twenty nineteen, twenty twenty. So this aligns with the the the new world. and we’ve recruited about ten trainees from that program last

year we had five trainees with with us. There’ll be more at the end of this year. Some qualified last year. We’ve got two at the moment. And in my time I’ve I’ve had over fifty trainees. So that’s a big thing. and once they are training with us, we work really hard on making them as complete a criminal lawyer as possible as soon as possible.

And you can’t substitute, there’s no substitute for experience, but we work really hard on on skilling up our lawyers. We have some we have some fantastic accreditations that we deliver. A couple of them are industry first internal accreditations. the Law Society does a brilliant police station accreditation. it also does a good magistrates’ court advocacy accreditation. But we specialise in pre-charge work, so

Where the Law Society doesn’t deliver one, we created our own that mirrors the police station accreditation. It’s got you have to s pass exams, submit portfolios, be be be shadow someone and then be be monitored. And then we get them to a a good level of being accredited to deal with this area of work. And then we did we introduced that about three or four years ago, and then a couple of years ago we introduced Crown Court accreditation. So again

that’s that means that our lawyers are accredited internally to represent people in the Crown Court. And when you look at those four accreditations, that that that’s that’s covering to a high standard the main basis of criminal defence work. Nothing on appeals, it’s good. Really, really good that. And then we added to it a client care accreditation last year. And the next thing is an AI accreditation, but that’s going to be annual because that changes so rapidly now.

so we really work hard on on bringing our our youngsters on. and I think that’s that youth policy is a really strong selling point for the firm. Yeah, absolutely. And I I love that you’re proactive again as well in terms of you don’t see it, create it. And yeah, I love that you you genuinely care about people bringing in the

are alignment your values, not just necessarily the best talent, you know, but actually do they be are they going to be the right fit? Are they going to genuinely care, be right for our clients, the reputation that we’ve built? Because you’re building a very, very you know, specialist firm with a with an excellent reputation and and you’re seeing the results because a lot of firms talk about the growth, but not all of them actually go on to achieve growth. Even more so in recent times with competition, you’re seeing more and more firms merge, go bust, whatever it might be. So how have you kept Oli’s independent specialist

and ambitious without diluting what the firm really stood for in the first place. We have our focus, we have our values. The last value is is independence. And it it’s being a great independent law firm. So it it it means that you I don’t think you can take your values if you can’t be swallowed up by a bigger firm and take your values with you. Because they they they would then be determined by the bigger firm. And so

That was the the key to it. it wasn’t so it wasn’t about making being hugely profitable. that that came that came away from the focus and the values. That came with the professionalism with which we should run our cases. it came with a decision, things like the decision to have a client acceptance policy on the publicly funded work. So for example, the days of

representing a shoplifter who may have committed an offence in Hull. It’s like we we can’t do that on a publicly funded basis. So and and we can’t represent the the the burglar in Leeds. And so we really had to trim down what what we could what we were prepared to accept on a publicly funded basis, on the basis that they would be just as well, if not better, represented by a local lawyer who had the time to deal with them. Not one who’s travelled at at at huge expense.

and little remuneration and and needs to get back to the office. It’s far better they are with a local lawyer. So that a client acceptance policy was a was a really important element of it. But in terms of the pre-charge work, for example, most of that is privately funded. Most significant proportion of our post charge work is privately funded. And so the it there was a switch away from being a a a legal aid law firm of of

Beginning of my career, 99% of our work was was legally aided. Even 15 years ago, there’s still a very, very high percentage legally aided. Now to one that’s probably 80%, close to 80% privately funded the work we do. So that sort of to some extent looked after its itself, and the success we had with cases meant that we were able to attract more and more work and also.

We really look after our branding and our online presence is really, really strong. and so that and we love it, you know, we love showcasing experience, our content we try and make it always try and make it educational and have authority and be trusted, trusted content. So that’s the double EAT that we always try and apply to what we do.

And we encourage staff to contribute content because it’s good for them, it’s good for their good for their careers, it’s good to showcase their knowledge and it and it benefits the firm as well. So we work hard on that. That’s been really helpful commercially. and then the the the interesting thing, and I don’t want to take you away from your questions by whittering on for too long, but the interesting thing this year was the impact of AI

answer engines rather than search engines if that depending on what terminology we want to use. But yeah, it was that was interesting this year and I I’m more than happy to expand upon that. Yeah, I think it’s very wise to do that given the world that we’re we’re in. So tell us more. We have someone who works with us on for many years on let’s call it search engine optimization and for the last two or three years he he wanted you know he wanted to make sure that we didn’t lose out as a result of answer

engines and the arrival, not not the arrival, but the people searching through Chat GPT and so on and the others. And we took a view on it, which was basically if we continue with what we’re doing, we’re probably doing the right thing because our content has authority. We’re not we we we it’s it’s really good quality content, but we weren’t sure but we realized the work that we were doing before twenty twenty five was probably even more

optimized for answer engines than it was for search engines. And so if I can give you an example, we do an awful lot of precharge work, as you know. a competitor might on their on their page say something like there might be a couple of paragraphs saying we can represent your precharge. So another competitor might have a a page, a web page, pre-charge work

Whereas what we have is a content hub or a cluster, which is great for the user experience, but it’s also really, really good for the machine, the answer engine. And so that cluster, on our pre-charge work, we have a fantastic page, but it’s got embedded video content, it’s got a huge amount of frequently asked questions.

Loads and loads of case studies on how we can effectively represent someone precharged. But here’s the thing: it also has widgets at the side with all the articles and blogs relevant to the the precharge stage of the case. And there’s about 25 different articles or blogs, they’re all on on the subject of precharge. And embedded into that content, at least 12 of them have got videos embedded.

And that’s just in so that’s about 40,000 words in total. It’s a huge amount of content. So you know, you hear this term, you’ve got to win the battle for the answer, or you’ve got to be the answer. and that that really means that when someone asks a question, the answer engine will say, We got this bit of the answer from Oliers, we got this bit from Oliers, we might have got this bit from the Crown Prosecution Service.

And then the supplemental question for the for the potential client might be about Olias. And then the answer engine starts to talk about Olias. And then we get the client, then the client comes to us. So we’ve gone from being one of the top three firms recommended by Google or search engine to being the recommended firm and part of the answer provided by AI or an answer engine, whichever whatever terminology you want to use for it.

And so becoming the answer, twenty twenty five was significantly about becoming the answer. Not all the time, but as frequently as you could, in the areas that you chose. Another really good example is in relation to correct term is homicide, but let’s call it murder and manslaughter. That will have it’s it is similar amount of content, similar amount of embedded video. So we’ll talk about what is diminished responsibility, what’s

What’s self defence? What’s what’s a conspiracy? What’s a joint enterprise? what happens in the first few days after during the murder investigation? What’s the position regarding bail in the murder investigation? Postmortems, what are they? Can you have a second post mortem? And it’s just a huge resource. The client can’t be left in any doubt as to the level of expertise. and you just compare that with we represent people on on murders, come to us. It’s it’s it

It’s only one winner. Yeah, you’re you’re talking about language and this is why I’ve been leaning all into content and hosting this show and having conversations like this with people in the roles, doing the doing now and you know, really educating because it’s it is a it is a hub. So I think that’s the the key thing here is you’re meeting people in a modern way where people are going to discover you as well and you’re being proactive. So I love that. And that again comes to your growth story, comes to your

you know, your s client success story and everything that you’re doing and sticking with clients, ’cause I know we’ve talked a lot about sort of client care throughout this discussion. But in criminal di sort of defence where reputation, liberty, livelihoods, as we’ve said, it’s really, really important. What does excellent client care actually look like in practice? So you have to be an excellent lawyer. And I’ve talked about how we train our lawyers and and I’ve talked about how we pick the right lawyer for the right client every time.

And and I’ve also alluded to the the empathy that the clients have for clients and the fact that client care is not just about getting stuff out in time and doing this and diagnosing it and and diagnosing the problem and delivering the service. It’s about caring, literally, in i i i in cr about caring for the client and having that level of empathy for the client.

That why did you come into the job? Why are you doing the job? And it’s not because it it’s because you wanted to, because you cared about the client, you cared about the outcome, and what you feel resonates with what I’m saying now and why I came into the job. And if you can say and if you align with that, then then we’re winning. And that ethos and the the notion of client care as well as client service, and I’m sort of distinguishing slightly.

That’s something that’s a drum that the senior lawyers in the firm bang. Not literally, they haven’t got drums in the office, but it’s it’s something it’s a drum that we bang all the time. and so yeah, that that I think that’s and we care about our clients, we care about our outcomes. It’s clear and that’s come throughout really well throughout the discussion and it’s authentic as well and genuinely caring.

You again you you you’re looking forwards, you’ve had growth, you’ve been prepared to make changes, you’ve continually stayed true to your values, really invest in your people, that’s clear. So from where you sit, what changes are you seeing in the way investigations are being conducted today, whether by the police, regulators or other authorities, and how does that affect the way defence lawyers may need to prepare? We’re going to see an increased use of AI with the way in the way in which investigating teams work and how they coordinate their activities.

On serious allegations, the biggest change I saw was right at the beginning of my clear was w that was the Holmes computer, where Sherlock Holmes computer for for dealing with complex murders. and it it came after the the the shortcomings of the in the in the nineteen seventies and eighties of the the Yorkshire Ripper and the failure to investigate that properly. And I think that that was huge. And and it there’s so much more they became so much more efficient. And yet until re well th that’s still

are still the go to, but as they move away from from that s and and have much, much greater emphasis on on AI and being able to pull information together. I think we’re going to see changes that that may be beyond what we could have expected. I think so we’re going to see more efficient police investigations. I think that’s that’s a really important thing. but but the other one I suppose is political climate and which which where the emphasis is placed upon i yeah

criminal investigations and what offences are i are under investigation so the political side of it and then of course you’ve got the technology and and criminal offences trying to keep up with technology. So we’re seeing seeing slightly new offences a lot of the time, online offences and so on. so yeah I think I think that’s to some extent you have to anticipate, but to another extent you have to be reactive because you never know what’s around the corner. Never been in business and seeing various things you absolutely do not.

A practical question now for our audience, and this is just for educational purposes, this is not advice, just to put that disclaimer in. If someone is listening to this and contacted by the police, a regulator or a professional body and fears they may be under investigation, what are the first things they should do and should not do? One of the things they should they they mustn’t engage with the investigator. They mustn’t say anything to the police. So to that extent, stay quiet, listen.

Absorb what is being said to you if you’re being asked to come for questioning, absorb it, but don’t don’t try and talk your way out of it or or remember the police are doing their job and that’s to investigate you. so that that’s the first thing. The second thing is seek legal advice as soon as possible. and contact a specialist, but and and and I think here, and this is something I don’t think I’ve mentioned.

Clients are becoming they’re using AI, hopefully they find audience as the answer, but also they’re asking far more exacting questions. We we see now when our clients are are asking some really good questions, they’re cr they’re setting out the problem, they’re asking what we can do for them, and I think that’s important. and that way you will end up with a firm that is specialized not just in criminal defence but in in relation to the

a particular matter for which you may be under investigation for. So it’s probably a lot easier for them now than a couple of years ago because they they can go to an answer engine, they go to Chat GPT or Gemini, whatever, and they they can they can do their research. But what you mustn’t mustn’t do is just trust the investigator, I’ll say the police, but trust the investigator to do their job on the basis that because you haven’t done anything, then you won’t be prosecuted.

That unfortunately is not something they should be doing. They need to be helping themselves and getting representation from a specialist who will look to adopt a proactive, front footed approach to dealing with their predicaments.

Yeah. No, thank you for for for sharing that and educating our audience. We we’ve talked, you talked earlier about staying calm, but I just want to sort of hammer a message home, given you know, you’ve been so successful and you’ve been leading a firm and and you’re such a wealth of experience. you know, the work you’re doing is super high stakes. You know, the outcomes really matter, can affect people’s livelihoods, families, generations of families, you you name it. So what has criminal defence taught you about leadership, composure and decision making under pressure? The most important thing is that people are looking to you.

So it it it may be in April of twenty twenty, when we’ve been locked down and people don’t know if th we’ve got clients to worry about, but people have got their jobs to worry about. And that’s when the leadership comes to the fore and you can reassure them that there’s a plan. This is how we’re going to deal with it. This is our strategy. And that was a really good example. But you you can have a a member of staff coming to you about an individual problem

about the future of the business, anything like that. And and as long as you’re calm and there’s evidence of a plan, they will get from you the the reassurance and confidence that they need within if it’s a member staff, within their work working environments. And the same appl applies to to a client in a professional environment. And so they look to you and if you are carrying the problem with a level of confidence that they can see that there is a way through it.

Then that will put them in a far better position than they were and then they would have been if you were you had no solution to the problem. So it’s that level of calmness com combined with authority and experience that colleagues will look to you for. And so I think I think that’s probably yeah, that’s probably a a good answer on that leadership issue. and it relates in a similar way to a lawyer-client relationship.

as it does to leader a law firm and a work colleague relationship. Yeah, no sage advice and thank you for for sharing that. Before I let you go, this has been a wonderful conversation. What advice would you give to aspiring lawyers who want to build a career in criminal defence or indeed high stakes investigations work? Okay. so aspiring lawyers, firstly if they if you haven’t got a job yet, you need to get out there. You need to get to the

Look look to firms that will do intern programmes and look to firms that you can spend time with. I mentioned us having eight week long intern programmes for eight lucky people. We also have a meet and greet event for about hundred well, there’s no limit to the numbers, we get to about a hundred people every spring. And then just before it’s time to go back to uni, we have a a full day intern programme, a virtual one, and last year we had about two hundred people come to that. So

Get to see law firms, go to the magistrates’ court, speak, be a bit cheeky, speak to a lawyer, ask the lawyer about what their job is, ask them if they can come and watch the next hearing, sit in court, make yourself known to ushers and other members of the court staff. If you do that, then you’re making yours getting yourself noticed. but and then then follow it up. Try and approach as many firms as you can for experience, possibly even barristers, and connect with people on LinkedIn.

Again, just be a little bit cheeky, hope you don’t mind this, hope you don’t mind that. And if you can’t give me some work experience, could you recommend anyone? And you would be surprised at how many people are impressed by that and will think, Well, yeah, I’m gonna help you. You ca you’re quite keen, so yeah, I will we’ll try and give you some help. and you can come and see it, spend a couple of days with me or my colleague can you and then the C V builds up. And if you’re looking at that C V of this twenty year old who’s who’s done two or three different placements, you think

Well, they’re still at it. They must be keen. But you know that they’re coming from a legitimate place, and it’s an area of interest that they’re working on. And so I think that’s that’s a really important thing for someone who really who is really keen on a career in criminal defence.

Yeah, and I everything you said there, just plus one. I always say if you increase your visibility, you’ll increase your credibility, if you get in the right spaces and places, like you say, fortune is very much in the follow-up and being cheeky, the answer’s always no if you’re not prepared to ask the question. So go out there and ask that question, you never know. this has been an absolute masterclass, Matthew. Really enjoyed it. It just leads me to say thank you so so much for joining me today on the Legally Speaking podcast, sponsored by Cleo, wishing you lots of continued success with the firm and indeed your future pursuits. But for now, from all of us, over and out.

Thank you for listening to this week’s episode. If you like the content here, why not check out our world leading content and collaboration hub, the Legally Speaking Club, over on Discord? Go to our website, www.legallyspeakingpodcast.com. There’s a link to join our community there. Over and out.