Have you ever considered working with a life coach? Then you won’t want to miss this episode with Emma Roche, an Off-Counsel Lawyer in Commercial Real Estate at BDB Pitmans and a qualified Life Coach. She shared her insights on the state of lawyers’ mental health and what we can do to improve it.  

So why should you be listening in?  

You can hear Rob and Emma discussing: 

• Off-council roles 

• Some of Emma’s most memorable cases 

• The value of living intentionally 
• How law firms can improve well-being for their employees  

Transcript

Rob Hanna 00:00 

On today’s Legally Speaking Podcast, I’m delighted to be joined by Emma Roche. Emma is an off-council and a commercial real estate team at BDB Pitmans. She is also recommended in the Legal 500 and ranked as a rising star within her sector. Emma also has experience sitting as an expert on the real estate council for the global family office and as a panel speaker at that annual conference. Emma is also a certified life coach, informed through philosophy, and is passionate about helping individuals find their why, professionally and personally. So a very big, warm welcome, Emma.  

Emma Roche 00:32 

Hi, great to be here.  

Rob Hanna 00:34 

Oh, it’s an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. Before we dive into all your amazing experiences to date. We do have a customary icebreaker question here on the Legally Speaking Podcast, which is on the scale of one to 1010, being very real, what would you rate the hit TV series suits in terms of its reality of the law? If you’ve seen it?

Emma Roche 00:58 

I love Suits, and the reason I love it is probably because it’s much more fast paced and exciting than the reality of day to day law in the UK. But I would rate it for actually, I think, and I’ll probably rename it smart casual, because suits a huge part of the modern day workplace anymore. But I love it because it’s glamorous and exciting, and it’s got drama and romance, but in reality, it probably takes 18 months to progress a case, as opposed to one or two episodes in suits. But that’s why we love it, right? 

Rob Hanna 01:30 

Absolutely. What a great answer. And I like that. I wonder if they’ll go with the rebrand smart casual. Who knows? We shall find out. But anyway, but today is all about you. So would you mind kicking off telling our listeners a bit about your background and career journey?  

Emma Roche 01:45 

Yeah, sure. So I’m a real estate lawyer, and have been for the last 17 years ranked lawyer. Really enjoy being part of the real estate ecosystem and working with agents and other lawyers, and most importantly, I guess, with our clients and real estate clients, of being part of the kind of London infrastructure. I guess ultimately, actually, I’m also a coach. And I’m a philosophically, philosophically informed coach, because prior to getting my law qualifications, I did a philosophy degree, and prior to that, I campaigned to get philosophy on our a level syllabus at school. Prior to that, my first book was Sophie’s World when I was 14, and I was given my first philosophy book, I should say I was given as a form prize, and that’s where my love for philosophy started. So my life is very much law, coaching and philosophy.  

Rob Hanna 02:44 

Now, what a great blend as well. And we’re going to dive into all of that. Let’s stay with the law, because you’re currently of council for commercial real estate team at BDB Ireland. We’ve got a range of listeners from around the world, people coming into the industry, in the industry. So for those who might be less familiar, what is an off-council and the role that you’re involved there with? 

Emma Roche 03:07 

Off-council, so you do a lot of supervision with other lawyers in the team. It’s kind of, I guess it’s more senior role than associates, senior associates. But we’re all, I guess, on a level and on a journey to help one another. And commercial real estate, it’s real estate, which is just property, but it’s all it’s always commercial property. So it’s not residential, you know, a house that you live in, it’s commercial. So it’s hotels, it’s retail, it’s development sites, all that sort of thing. And within that, you work with planning lawyers, infrastructure lawyers, corporate lawyers, if it’s if it’s a corporate purchase, property through a corporate purchase. So you work with other parts of the firm as well, which is nice you’re working with other lawyers, 

Rob Hanna 03:56 

Yeah. And it’s nice collaborative role, isn’t it? Like, yeah, when you’re working with others in the team? Okay, you’ve worked on some really exciting cases, and it’s always hard for people to answer this one. But you know, you provide real estate advice in the UK and for sort of offshore private wealth clients, you have high net worth individuals, investors, trust funds, family offices, you name it. So would you mind sharing one of your most memorable cases with us, 

Emma Roche 04:23 

most memorable cases, I think probably it was kind of an ongoing case, but, but it was working, looking after a development site which was both residential and commercial, but I dealt With a commercial site, and there was really hand holding the agent that looked after that site over sort of two years. So I kind of, I dealt with all the precedents, I dealt with all the different documents, whether that be kind of, you know, lease licenses under lease. But it was, it was a whole body of work over two or three years that we did together. So it became a sort of, you know, a third child, if you like, and so it wasn’t sort of as exciting, but it was our own. And so that, that was probably one of my favorite clients that I worked with. But, you know, recently, you know, I we sold a convent, and that had to be done within the space of two, two and a half months. Was it or six, yeah. And that was fairly fast paced, at a very sort of expensive purchase price. And that was quite exciting. And that was sort of, you know, in a nice part of London, and there was lots of different elements to that, so that was quite fun.  

Rob Hanna 05:47 

Yeah, fast paced, but not suits, fast paced, right? So, Emma, you’re also a certified life coach. So where did your interest in coaching, informed through philosophy, stem from? And why are you so passionate about helping individuals truly find their why? 

Emma Roche 06:04 

So I guess I need to backtrack a bit, really, but I think probably in my late 30s, I had this sort of realization that I was Emma first and a lawyer second and previously, which sounds silly, doesn’t it, really, but because I was a mother and and a wife and a friend and a sister and all this sorts of thing. But actually, I thought, oh my gosh, I feel, I kind of feel slightly lost. And it wasn’t any sort of depressive state as such. It was just feeling a bit lost and, you know, uneasy, I guess. And I was trying to work out why that was, and I thought, I’m not really, you know, entitled to feel like this. You know, I’ve got Touchwood, healthy children, a great marriage, a great career. I spent nine years renovating a thatch cottage, and I thought, Why do I feel like this? And so I kind of went back to philosophy and picked up a book by Alan to Boston’s philosophy, which I bought in 2000 just for me, just to kind of because I knew it felt quite existential, and it really helped. And once I started reading that book, I started I picked up all the other philosophy books. And actually, philosophy isn’t some sort of opaque, abstract discipline, it’s actually really practical. And for the last 3000 years, they’ve answered all these questions about how we can live well. And, you know, so it’s always a fulfillment purpose. It’s always been on the agenda for philosophy, you know, since the Socrates uttered the words, you know, what’s the meaning of life? And his answer was to know yourself. So I figured I just need to have this deep dive into who I was, and that’s where the kind of the path to coaching started, because I was then talking to a school friend who’s a medical doctor, and she said, Emma, have you ever thought about coaching? I thought, No. Thought about coaching. And she said, How about philosophy and coaching? I thought, oh my gosh, you know, because philosophy is the foundation for a lot of psychology and psychiatry. It all stems from there. And then when I embarked on a coaching course, because I thought, whatever, whatever happens, I think coaching course would be a brilliant thing to do, anyway, for me and for my family and getting to know myself and how to relate and connect with other people, and philosophy formed a huge part of the course. I then, of course, went on to do a separate philosophical coaching course as well, but it just stemmed from me feeling existentially sort of lost really. You know, I think I’ve used the analogy before, like a like a plain circling so there’s no sort of immediate danger, but just uneasy. And that’s kind of how I found my way back.  

Rob Hanna 08:48 

And thank you for being so refreshingly open. And also then, sort of, you know, not staying in that state and going to find a solution. And you know, you’ve been doing some tremendous work, so just building on that, you’re, I believe, currently working with Dr Laura David of the smart about health on some exciting projects, and they’re based on our, I believe, Partner Programs at City firms to help partners have a better understanding of how they examine who they are and ensure they’re more resilient to the pressures of the day job. We know it’s tough, so could you tell us a little bit more about what’s in that work, please? 

Emma Roche 09:19 

Yeah, it’s brilliant. I mean, I saw working with Chaz and Hamlin, and so really, he’s a senior partner there, and it’s all about I think self care is brilliant, and I think self help books are good, and exercise and meditation and all these kind of things that we can do to help ourselves. But sometimes I think we need to kind of look at ourselves and understand our meaning and purpose in and outside of the job, and understand how important thinking is and moving all distractions. Because when we’re overwhelmed and we’re and we’re scared or we’re stressed, we don’t think properly. And so I think philosophical coaching gives us structure. Shirt of how we can think and how we can kind of zoom out, and how we can get perspective. And I think there’s also an element of this. The stoics came up with an analogy the stoic Archer, whereby the archer takes the perfect shot, but because it’s outside, it’s kind of vulnerable to the elements and and so the the archer takes the shot, but the gust of wind takes it. And the question is, how would you feel? And the answer is probably fine, because it was entirely out of your control. So you were the best possible Archer. And with lawyers, you know, especially partners, they’re their own business. And so it’s feast and famine. It’s worrying where the next piece of work is coming from. It’s managing a team. It’s looking after your junior lawyers, to progress them and give them work. And there’s so much out of your control as well. And so I think it’s remembering to concentrate on what you can and don’t worry about what you can’t. I think that analogy really helps. So I think remembering how and thinking, how important thinking is, because the quality of our decisions really is dependent on the quality of our thinking. So it’s tools. It’s getting perspective. It’s remembering that we’re, you know, we’re a volunteer in our life, and we’re the author of our own life, and we have the freedom of the of choice, and we forget that when we’re totally entrenched and stressed and overwhelmed, you know, remembering why we wanted to be a lawyer in the first place, and the value that we have in our life outside of our work. So it’s that sort of thing. I mean, I coached a lawyer who didn’t know if she wanted to be a lawyer anymore, and she felt really lost, and once we understood that actually, she her purpose and meaning was entirely outside of her job as a lawyer, and she was, you know, senior in house counsel, she realized, actually, I do want to be a lawyer, and I’m much happier just having had the discussion, knowing that my purpose is outside of it, but I love the the intellectual challenge of being a lawyer and My team, but just being open and having that conversation about who she was and her identity, not being entirely wrapped up in being a lawyer, helped her feel more anchored and anchored and resilient. 

Rob Hanna 12:12 

I love that. And you know, it’s so true, isn’t it, you know, more than a lawyer, but I think that comes to the point of being prepared to have that conversation, yeah, and, you know, giving yourself the ability to actually open up and speak to somebody like you, who’s highly qualified, knowledgeable, and can help guide them and and see the light in so many respects, you gave an example there. But are there any other examples you would give from a sort of coaching perspective of how you’ve helped other lawyers and, you know, some of the, some of the results you’ve seen, 

Emma Roche 12:41 

yeah. I mean, I think it depends on the issue with the lawyer and what’s going on really. But I think it is often overwhelm, and so it is kind of taking away distraction. I mean, so Gabor Mateo, for example, talks about addiction being a lack of connection. And so I think the other way of dealing with overwhelm was to to remove distractions. So going for walks without without podcasts, without music, you know, not necessarily reading self help books, but being in dialog with someone. Because when you’re in dialog with someone and a coach, and you’re holding them up to yourself, and you’ll say things out loud, loud, you actually deal with yourself in a way and and you have to make time for that. You know, time. We’re all very time. What time is so precious for everyone, I guess. But for lawyers, they seem to have less of it because of the way they operate. And so putting time and aside for coaching, and in particular, philosophical coaching every week or every other week actually gives them the space to think and work out what it is that’s really going on. So I guess, I guess time to think and putting these places, you know, putting these mindset changes in about what they can control. And, yeah, I mean, I guess the story with the with meaning and and remembering that you know what, what you do outside of work can motivate you inside of work, I guess, and intentional living and remembering that you’ve chosen to be there. So I guess they’re not particular examples, are they? But they’re the themes to generally all my kind of coaching programs. I guess 

Rob Hanna 14:29 

I love the phrase you just used there of intentional living. Never heard that before. I’d love to get sort of a bit more context for you in terms of, you know, if you were to say to someone, you know, are you living intentionally? Any any sort of tips around that, or any more thoughts? I think it’s a really interesting, interesting view. So tell us more about your view on intentional living or things that you do. 

Emma Roche 14:49 

Yeah. So I think existentialism just means understanding what it is to be human and kind of responding to that. And I think they the focus very. Much is kind of being the author of our own life and remembering that we’re a volunteer in this and that our decisions can change our life. And every decision that we don’t make is a decision that we’ve made. If that makes sense, you’re ruling something up by not making a decision. And so I think you know mindfulness and meditation, all these things are much more powerful if you’ve thought about what you want and why you know and and when you’re when you’re talking out loud about what you want, it’s much easier to be intentional about it. So it’s, it’s taking control and being in the driving seat and remembering that you know you’ve got the freedom to make the difference to your life, which sounds quite obvious, doesn’t it, but you forget, and I think with some of the partners I’ve worked with, they forget that actually they have got a choice as to how they can, you know, how they can act, or what they can change. I mean, the other thing we’ve kind of drawn on is kind of virtue ethics. But bear with me, because virtues are sort of, you know, slightly sounds old fashioned, doesn’t it? But it’s the idea of working on our weaknesses. So there’s this, there’s four virtues, like Courage, justice, temperance and wisdom. And within those, there’s family virtues. And so courage is like strength and bravery, and justice is fairness, kindness, compassion and temperance is self regulation, self control, patience, humility and wisdom being like judgment, knowledge, distilling wisdom for knowledge. And then, if you look at, if you break all those, those virtues down with some partners, I’ve said, you know which ones where? Where are your weaknesses within these four? You know, and like temperance, for example, and you know, having the discipline of persistence and and if you look at those individual virtues and you and you pick out which ones you think you need to work on, ultimately, I think you’re a happier person when there’s a balance of all four. So that’s worked quite well in coaching sessions as well.  

Rob Hanna 17:07 

Yeah, now there’s so many great little practical tips. And I guess what I want to is maybe a slightly contrarian question to this, because I, you know, I’m on board this bus. I think it’s very important. I think the more we can wrap our heads around this and have a growth mindset, open mindset and really find out who we are, our purpose, our why. You know, I have a very strong why that I talk a lot about on the show as well. But what about for those who might be a little less reserved, you know, those that perhaps you know, actually, I’m not sure if this is for me or reservations you may have had. What would you say to those individuals in terms of not necessarily convincing them, but just why you should perhaps give this some thought. 

Emma Roche 17:44 

I think we I think our inner lives are quite medicalised now, often and or pathologised. And I think philosophy and thinking philosophically is just about understanding that we’re human. And anxiety, for example, is just a human condition, and we need to lean into that sometimes and go, what’s making us anxious? And some people are quite together, and they don’t, and they’ve thought about this stuff, and they might not need to think about it, because they know who they are and what they want, and they are living intentionally, you know. And they know that they prefer poached eggs to scrambled eggs, you know. They know who they are. So it’s not for everyone, but I think often life, life gets in the way of thinking and remembering what’s important. And to do that, to for me to live a sort of a full human life, we under need we need meaning, and we need purpose, and we need to know our why. And to do that, we need to understand ourselves. But so some people do know themselves, but if they don’t, I think, don’t be, don’t be fearful of stepping into it, because philosophy and coaching gives you a structure to think, and it can hold that structure, and it can question you in a way where things organically unveil themselves, rather than it being, you know, opening Pandora’s box, as it were. But it’s just about being human. And it’s not like, it’s not therapy in that sense. It’s just dealing with what it is to be you and, you know, and your role in this world, and what sense, what’s the central story you’re telling yourself, and what part Am I playing in this, you know, fundamental questions, I think, yeah, and 

Rob Hanna 19:22 

everyone has a story, don’t they? And everybody has a why. And I think it’s just getting that out of everyone and bringing that out of them. And obviously it’s the great work that you do in making that happen for people, which is, which is fantastic. Okay, let’s talk about a few top tips. Then, you know, in terms of, can you share with our listeners? Maybe they are on the bus now. Maybe they are excited, you know, maybe they really understand what you’ve said and get and, you know, there’s real value they think from this. So, you know, what could our maybe in terms of what the top tips when they’re thinking about investing in a coach specifically?

Emma Roche 19:58 

Top tips, I think, um. Um, are, I think asking yourself questions, okay? I think it’s all about getting to know yourself. I think the most, the most important thing for me to begin with, I’ll get i Thinking is really important, okay, so, especially philosophical thinking. Okay, so it’s about thinking clearly, like, what’s really going to help this problem? You know, not, not what I’ve done before, what’s really going to help it like, think critically, you know, question whether your assumptions are always right, or whether you’re assuming you’re taking someone else’s bestowing or someone else’s sort so thinking critically and thinking carefully, so taking time to really think about something and not making hasty decisions. And I think in a coaching environment, you can have all of those things within an environment to help you, help you think, Okay, I think it’s coaching in particular. Philosophical coaching is remembering that living is an art form in itself, and we all, we have all these different parts to living. You know, our family, our working, and it kind of needs to be created for you, you know? And I think when you think about life like that, coaching is really difficult to do on your own, because you need to be in dialog with a coach. You know, how many self help books have we got that we’ve half read, and we think we’re helping ourselves, and it feels really good at the time. It feels like a really big hug, and you feel really understood. But actually, practically, does that really do the job? But I think being in dialog with someone and you know, and hearing yourself back and hearing yourself say what you’re thinking actually moves, moves your life forward and the way you think in a much faster pace. So I think, I think be brave, and you have to be uncomfortable. You have to get out of this kind of comfort zone. But what’s on the other side is, is a place where you’ll feel you’ll feel anchored, you’ll feel resilient. You’ll feel less stressed, less angry, because you know who you are and you’ve been seen. And I guess when you’ve been seen, you start to see other people in a way that you haven’t seen them before, and then you go to work feeling better because, because, because you know who you are, and you’ve got an authenticity. So you’re kind of, you’re living, align with, with, with who you are and what you value. 

Rob Hanna 22:27 

I love that. I always say, like, ABA, like, always be authentic. And like you say, the comfort zone is great, but nothing ever grows there. So you’re prepared to kind of get out of that. And, you know, I say having a coach is a real asset. Is a strength. You know, you look at any top performers in the sporting world, we’re talking off air about the amount of sports and things you’re involved with through the family. You know, coaches really can help you, you know, become a more rounded, more happier, you know, greater person, and really kind of deliver on the why and your purpose. So I love this, this, this conversation, and I hope, you know, busy legal professionals just take a step back and actually absorb what we’re discussing here, because there are so many tools that can help people. This is going to be a tricky question for you, because you’ve studied philosophy and have a deep knowledge around it. But is there one piece of wisdom that stuck with you or stays with you very top of mind that you would like to share with our listeners from all the studying and the coachings and things that you’ve had throughout today, is that, is there one thing that’s really stuck with you? 

Emma Roche 23:27 

Oh, gosh. Well, there’s so many, but I think that the one that helped me was Socrates. You know, what’s the meaning of life is to know yourself, but the other one is like a life, a life unexamined, isn’t worth living, which sounds really oh my gosh, really, but it’s true, isn’t it? Like we need to understand what we love and who we are to kind of get the most out of life? I think so that’s probably one for me. But I take, I need the question to be from different areas of different philosophies, you know. But I think Aristotle used one, you know, where it was a tool for living, and it was about like zooming out your deathbed and then coming back and realizing what it is that you don’t want to regret. And so I think, yeah, I can’t, I don’t think I can pick one, Rob.

Rob Hanna 24:15 

but I love that. That’s, that’s very thought provoking, you know, thinking, thinking of that lens, aren’t you looking forward to then look back and make sure you have no no regrets. I like that. Okay, well, look, you’re a lawyer. You know, you do some really high quality legal work. You work across lots of different law firms, seeing lots of law firms. You know, there is, I think maybe a little bit more that law firms could be doing, particularly in terms of supporting lawyers from a sort of mental health and coaching perspective. Are there any tips you would offer to law firms listening to this that maybe they might want to think about in terms of incorporating to help the overall well being of their their lawyers and indeed, people within the firm, 

Emma Roche 24:54 

I think encourage, I think actively encourage, a thinking environment, and I mean that by. Talking about how important it is to have time to think, because we think best. And lawyers need to think a lot all the time. We think best in the right environment. So creating a thinking environment, you know, like a interruption, is kind of assault on thinking. So I think partners reminding or telling, you know, more junior lawyers that they respect how they think, and they’ll listen to how they think. So I think creating this culture, which sounds simple, doesn’t it, but actually, I think that’s a bit of a game changer, really, because it’s also quite it’s respectful, and I think we’d get better results from lawyers if they were in an environment where they knew that their thinking was respected as much as anyone else’s. So put them on sort of an equal plane as it were. I think talking about lawyers having conversations around around your kind of identity outside of being a lawyer. Because I think with, I mean, you know, married to a lawyer as well. And I think your your identity gets so wrapped up in what you do. And so it’s remembering that you’re a person outside of the law firm as well. And that’s kind of that’s the existential philosophical piece. And I think if you do work on that again, you know you turn up to work feeling, feeling more grounded in who you are, and these are fundamental changes, but just just just talking about them as concepts, actually, I think helps people. So I think they’d kind of be top two for me.

Rob Hanna 26:35 

And they’re really important, aren’t they, you know, making people for you, feel seen, heard and valued and giving them that sense of belonging, and they can bring their full sense to work. And you know, like you say, you really craft the culture. You know, from my own sort of legal recruiting perspective, you’re going to have a far greater retention level because people are going to be really bought into the culture. They’re going to like working there. They’re going to want to rise within the firm, rather than rise out and move away. And I think, you know, like you say, if you can really crack these things, um, you’re going to be super, super successful. Um, this has been really thought provoking Emma, and I’m reflecting a lot on the conversation from what we’ve learned from from from you today, and that’s why I was excited to have the conversation. Um, is there one particular takeaway from our conversation today that you would like to leave with our with our listeners. 

Emma Roche 27:23 

I think that life needs to be created and respected, and that do that we have to understand what it is we want and who we are. I think go away and ask yourself some questions. Go and ask yourself, I mean, I joke, but actually, you know, how do you how do you like your eggs, and why? You know, if you think of someone that you most admire, either celebrity or non or not famous, someone in your close circle of friends, and why, if there was three things you wanted someone to say about you in a in a biography or in an obituary, which sounds depressing, doesn’t it? But actually it’s quite powerful. What would they be so ask questions about who you are and what you want. 

Rob Hanna 28:18 

I love that, and I love things in threes, and I’m just thinking in my own head, then what I would want for those threes. Oh, this has been brilliant. Emma really, really enjoyed it. If our listeners, which I’m sure they will want to follow you or learn more about your legal work or coaching, where can they find out more? Feel free to shout out any websites, any social media handles will also include them in this episode for you too. 

Emma Roche 28:40 

Yeah, great. So I’m on LinkedIn, but also my website. Emma hyphen, roche.com, you can find me there. Just reach out. DM me. I’m I’m here.  

Rob Hanna 28:52 

You are here, indeed. Well, thank you so so much. Once again, Emma, I’ve really enjoyed having you on the show. It’s been an absolute pleasure. So from all of us on the legally speaking podcast sponsored by Clio, wishing you lots of continued success with your career coaching and future pursuits, but for now, over and out, 

Emma Roche 29:07 

well, Thanks, Rob. It’s been a pleasure.