What do a Navy veteran, aviation lawyer and leadership author all have in common? One extraordinary career.

This week, I’m joined by Mark C. Fava, the Vice President of Ombudsperson at Boeing and the author of Lessons from the Admiral. From navigating the aftermath of 9/11 at Delta Airlines to leading safety initiatives at Boeing, Mark shares powerful stories of resilience, innovation and leadership. Whether you’re curious about the future of aviation or seeking lessons in personal growth, this episode packed with insights you don’t want to miss

Go give it a listen now!

So why should you be listening in? 
You can hear Rob and Mark discussing:

• The Importance of Taking Care of Your Team
• The Role of Passion in Career Choices
• Navigating a Career in Aviation Law
• Impact of 9/11 on the Aviation Industry
• Building Legal Operations at Boeing

Connect with Mark here –

https://www.linkedin.com/in/markcfava

https://markcfava.com/

Transcript

0:00  

The best time to be a leader is sometimes in the worst of times, try your hardest to do a good job, but as the boss, you should always take care of your people, and that, to me, has been the most important lesson. Good things happen when you take care of your people, and you’d be amazed at the results. I always say that, you know, any lawyer, no matter what your niche is, you can figure it out with good people and good help, right? So all of those things are absolutely critical in the aviation industry. That’s the number one, always the number one priority 

On today’s legally speaking Podcast. I’m delighted to be joined by Mark Fava. Mark is an aviation lawyer and US Navy veteran. Mark started his career as an aviation lawyer at Delta Airlines, before moving to the Boeing Company, where he’s been for the past 13 years. He’s currently the vice president of ombudsperson at Boeing. Mark is also the very proud author of lessons from the admiral, naval wisdom and sea stories for leaders. So a very big, warm welcome to the show, Mark. Thank you, Rob. It’s great to be here. I love your podcast, and it’s really fun to finally connect with you. Oh, and likewise, and I’m a big fan of your journey and all the great things you’ve been doing. And before we get into that today, we do have a customary icebreaker question here on the legally speaking podcast, which is on the scale of one to 1010, being very real, what would you rate the hit TV series suits in terms of its reality of the law. If you’ve seen it, I did my homework so I have seen it, so I’m gonna go with a six,

15:08  

I tell people all the time that you know, starting in the service, wherever you are, is just a wonderful, wonderful way to get started, right? Because the the traits that you learn there, the importance of teamwork, the importance of being on time, the importance of precision, all of that stuff is critical in any job that you have later on in life. So for me, the first six years in the Navy were incredible because the camaraderie, the friendship, the adventure, right? You know, taking a p3 into into Scotland, London, London capsule, Vic Iceland, Rio de Janeiro, of all places. I mean, we did just some phenomenal things, and you’re doing it. I was doing it with a crew of 12 others, so I just, I thought it was so formative, and all of those traits were the same traits I used as a lawyer. Today’s episode is brought to you by Clio. Are you frustrated with your current legal management software? You’re not alone, and 1000s of solicitors across the UK feel your pain. However, the hassle of moving all their existing client and case data holds most back from switching, prolonging the frustration. Clio is here to help. Their dedicated migrations team will be with you every step of the way while you transfer your information, and if you have any questions, you’ll get award winning support available 24, five by live chat, phone and email. So help is always there when you need it most. It’s no wonder Clio consistently receives five star ratings for its ease of use and top notch service. If you’re ready to leave the frustration behind, visit clio.com forward slash UK to learn more and see why Clio continues to be the go to choice for solicitors across the UK. Now, back to the show. There’s so many transferable skills, and we talk, I talk a lot about that to people as well, in terms of, you don’t necessarily need to have direct legal experience straight away. You know, there are certain skills like you alluded to, there and transferable things that can actually build and skill stack to enable you to be a high quality lawyer and as you, as you progress. So thanks for sharing that. Let’s talk about challenges, because, you know, the aviation industry and regulations and things are changing, you know, quite a lot of the time. So what are the biggest challenges, but also opportunities, in your opinion, facing the aviation sector today? Yeah, you know, it is definitely if you look at, if you look at the history of aviation, either air carriers making money or losing money. And somebody who will show you a slide of, you know, air carriers when they make money is like this, air carriers when they lose money is pretty much most of the time. It’s a very, very difficult industry, but it’s a fascinating industry. And I would say the challenges are just that you’ve got to understand that there’s going to be ups and downs. And like for me, I thought it was going to be the end of the world when 911 happened, but that was probably the best thing that happened in my career. In other times,

29:59  

Where can they go to find out? Feel free to share any website links or social media handles. We’ll also include them in this very special episode for you too well. Thank you very much. The website for the book is Markcfava.com and the book is on both Amazon and Barnes and Noble. And just really, really excited about about that. And then I’ve got a personal website that is the aviator lawyer.com and we’ll share all three of those. But it’s been such a privilege and fun chatting with you, and I’m glad we were able to do this. Rob, absolutely mark, it just leads me to say thank you ever so much once again for your time today. But from all of us on the legally speaking podcast sponsored by Clio, wishing you lots of continued success, if that’s even possible with all the things you’ve achieved and your future pursuits, but from now, from all of us over and out, thank you for listening to this week’s episode. If you like the content here, why not check out our world leading content and Collaboration Hub, the legally speaking club, over on Discord. Go to our website, www dot legally speaking podcast.com

1:29  

six primarily for the entertainment value. And definitely the other four is there’s some things on there that would never happen, but are still fun to watch, especially the personalities and the connection to big law.

1:40  

There we go. I justified six, and with that, we’re going to move swiftly on to talk all about you. Mark. So to begin with, would you mind telling our listeners a bit about your background and career journey? No,

1:52  

sure. Look, I have spent the past 20 or so more odd years as an aviation lawyer. I started actually in the Navy. I went to University of North Carolina Chapel Hill. And then after that, after six years in the Navy, went back to law school, tried to figure out a way to become an aviation attorney, and was able to do that in 2001 by going to Delta Airlines. Came back from Delta and had been in South Carolina ever since as an aviation lawyer. And I’m now working for the

2:18  

Boeing Company, absolutely, and I know you have a real passion for aviation, and you describe yourself, I believe, as an aviation enthusiast. So what initially sparked your passion for aviation, and then to go on to become, obviously, an aviation lawyer, sure,

2:35  

you know it was in our naval ROTC program. You have four options, right? You can either go on ships. You can go on subs. You can go be a Marine, or you can go aviation. I’d always like planes, so during the summer of my sophomore year in college, I got to experience all all four needless to say, the ship guys worked very, very hard. They stood watch all night, and then they still had to go up and and drive the ship. Marines were fun, but I knew I would never hack it physically. Not gonna do that. Submarines again, extremely bright, mostly nuclear engineers, but did not like being underwater where the metal Creek. So we ended up in aviation, which is really my passion, and I’ve been doing it ever since. Yeah, absolutely.

3:18  

And I think your first aviation lawyer we’ve had on the show, believe it or not, after so many episodes we’ve done. So I was really keen to have you on, because you’ve had such a, you know, an impressive career, and done so many amazing things. But I want to kind of go back to the start, because we have listeners from all around the world, so the different stages of their journeys tuning in. And so for perhaps those that might be thinking about, you know, a career as an aviation lawyer, how did you go about finding your first role as an aviation lawyer? And fast forwarding to where we are today. Any tips to help people thinking about trying to get their first role?

3:48  

Yeah, you know, you talk about this a lot, Rob on your podcast, you know, taking a risk, making a jump, right? So I, I was a naval flight officer in the Navy in the back of a p3 my collateral duty was a legal officer. So I’m flying around the world during the Cold War, chasing Soviet submarines, actually, you know, even even the Europe and the Mediterranean. And then just said, You know what, maybe I want to go, maybe want to go to law school, and combine that with my passion for planes. So my tip would be to anybody, you know, follow your passion. And for me, that was coming back to law school, settling in Charleston, South Carolina. And then a high school friend of mine calling me. He was at Delta Airlines, and he says, Do you want to move to Atlanta to come work for delta? And I said, not only No, but you know, hell no. And then 35 days later, I found myself at Delta Airlines with a wonderful job, and that was right before 911 and it may be an aviation lawyer, yeah,

4:41  

absolutely. And I wanted to kind of lead on to delta. So thanks for mentioning that. Because what were your responsibilities as a Chief Operations attorney there? Can you give us a bit of a flavor? Yeah,

4:51  

it was a wonderful job. So I handled we had a risk manager. So anytime we had passenger litigation, anything happening with passengers? Uh, suing or sending demand letters, I would work with the risk manager and our insurance adjusters, or the insurance companies who are New York City. So that was part of the job. And the other component of the job was the regulatory aspect. So likewise, anytime the FAA, or as the TSA was created, had an issue, I would work with the company in defending the company. And the really neat thing about that is I also got to defend pilots and mechanics. So two components, the litigation aspect of it, trying to resolve passenger claims. And then the other part was the regulatory aspect.

5:31  

Yeah, no, fascinating role. And I guess, you know, you were very quick into the role, in the sense of 41 days in, I believe, as sort of, you know, Chief Operations attorney, you know 911 occurred. So you know, what was it like, and how did that event change the aviation industry. In your opinion,

5:51  

it was bizarre. You know, we all know in our lives where we are when significant events happen, right? If there’s an assassination attempt or something significant that happens to you or your family or so. I remember the day like it was yesterday. I was in a big hotel conference room, the Renaissance Hotel, which was right on the side of the Atlanta runway. We were having a conference there for our security personnel, so all of our security managers from across the country there, and I was there with the general counsel, and we were giving them the legal update when, you know, back then, nobody had iPhones. We all had pagers. Everybody’s pagers started to go off. And we knew then something had gone terribly wrong. And everything that I had went to delta for changed, right? I went there for maybe a little bit better quality of life, like you at the time, I had one young daughter, so I convinced my wife to move to Charleston. I said, Come on, let’s go. We’ll fly around the world. It’ll be free, it’ll be fun, it’ll be a better nine to five job. And boy, within 41 days, all of that changed. You know, there was no more flying, there was no more fun. It was hard work. You know, there wasn’t even in America. There wasn’t even a TSA yet. So I will say for the next six to eight months. You know, I rarely saw her. It was 12 to 15 hour days. But I got to know, you know, through adversity, great things happen. So I got to know every other attorney at every other major airline and a bunch of government attorneys. And the wonderful thing about that, Rob, as you talk about too, is the relationships matter. So we’re a small, close knit group all those folks I still know today. They’re all in the aviation industry somewhere,

7:22  

yeah, and it’s beautiful, and we do talk a lot about that, and you know, thankfully for sharing it from your experiences as well, because you’ve had some, you know, very high powered, responsible jobs, and the fact that you see the value in this as well from from all stages of your career, really appreciate you shining a light on that. Let’s fast forward then to Boeing, because you’re the first lawyer, I believe, at Boeing and hired in South Carolina. What challenges did you face setting up the legal operations over there?

7:49  

Yeah, it was. It was a wonderful, wonderful opportunity, right? So after I left Delta about three years into it, my wife said, I’m ready to go back to Charles. And I promised her that if you don’t, if you don’t like it here, eventually we’ll go back. And she woke me up in the middle of night one night, and said, You know, I’m going back. Are you coming with me? And I said, Yeah, okay. She said, You promised me that if I didn’t like it, we’d come back. And we never really got a good fit there. The majority of that was obviously, because the post 911 environment is very difficult for her, but so at the law firm, six or seven years later, same thing, I knew Boeing was coming into town. I often tell people I kid around. I said they brought in some brilliant engineers that knew how to build airplanes, but when they wanted to do law and figure out how to do things locally, I like to say they were very smart that they hired one of two aviation lawyers in the state. And by then, you know, I was like, I was pretty well known. My father had been in politics. I had been in local politics. So that was the wonderful thing about it. And, boy, we just were able to to attract and pick four or five other very, very bright lawyers when we started, over the first couple of years, to build a multi billion dollar manufacturing facility in South Carolina. Yeah.

9:00  

I mean, it’s colossal, isn’t it? And what you achieved is absolutely, you know, phenomenal. And, you know, I’m also a little bit of a plane and aviation enthusiast, so I was quite keen to have this discussion today with you. What has been your your overall experience working at Boeing, and what projects have you been involved with, and can you share any memorable cases that you’ve worked on at all, yeah, you

9:23  

know, it’s been the same, it’s been the same as what I did at Delta, you know, the first, the first couple of years we were, we were merging a couple of other, a couple of other suppliers that we bought there. So we had two existing sub component suppliers, and then we built, like you said, this, this huge, huge factory, 10 foot, 10 American football fields in square footage, where we build the 787, Dreamliner and and, you know, So originally, very little had to do with aviation, right? It was, how do we get on the electricity? How do we get the water and sewer? What are the environmental how do we get the new paint booth approved? And that was fascinating for me, because I always say that, you know, any lawyer to. Matter what your niche is, you can figure it out with good people and good help, right? So those were the fun days, very early on, when we went from, you know, probably, you know, just wetlands in a really nasty marshy area near the airport to this beautiful, beautiful facility in about two years, faster than I think anybody thought we could do it. And since then, I have been went from there to managing, likewise for the company FA regulatory issues, so assisting the client, the in house client, with those. And then the most fascinating thing I did recently was I was the lawyer for our, what we called our confident travel initiative during the pandemic. So as we were trying to explain to passengers that you know, quite honestly, with the filtration system and the air and the aircraft, it was one of the safest places to be, even though you’re sitting right next to somebody, they needed a lawyer for all those communications. And I work with some absolutely brilliant scientists and engineers reviewing not only their studies, but also the communications we were putting out to the world during the pandemic, saying it was safe to travel, in our opinion, based on scientific evidence on a plane. Yeah,

11:06  

1. And again, just coming back to what you’re saying earlier, and I kind of echo those relationships, being able to have those conversations and build those relationships to kind of make things work collectively so you can produce a really high quality output. And, you know, make the legal department seen as a collaboration partner helps enable things is super, super important. I can say, just from your style, and, you know, from knowing you and, you know, reading your book, which we’re going to talk about shortly as well. It’s in your DNA. You’ve touched on it. But let’s dive a little bit deeper into your your in house lawyer role for the top engineer. So could you tell us more about that? You know, being in house lawyer for Boeing’s top engineer? Just give us a bit more of a flavor of that role.

11:42  

Yeah, it was, it was absolutely fascinating. So I started out just as a South Carolina Attorney, then moved on to do FA regulatory stuff for Boeing Commercial, and then did the, what we said, the confident travel initiative. And then the last job before my current one was, I was, I was working with the head attorney, who’s got, you know, 1000s of brilliant attorneys under under him, and just forming that relationship with him was was incredible, learning from him. And you know, the primary job you’re doing there is forming that trust and relationship, and then as any in house lawyer does, understanding the business and then reviewing for risk, right, and knowing what you think the risks are at advising, but at the same time, knowing as any good in house lawyer knows it’s usually the client’s decision in terms of technical issues, and you’re just the advisor, the only time you really say no, you can’t do that is if you think the risk is too significant, or you know there’s any potential violation of the Law. And working for that engineer was probably the highlight of my career,

12:44  

yeah. And, I mean, it’s an amazing career you’ve had as well. So many interesting cases, so many, you know, world events and life events that you’ve experienced. But let’s fast forward then to sort of the present in terms of, you know, Vice President of Boeing’s safety department. You know, very unique role recognized in the Wall Street Journal, no less, of course. But what does this role involve? Give us a bit more of a flavor of that.

13:07  

My boss is the vice president safety department. I am in a new position called the ombudsperson, and I actually work with so I took the knowledge of being a lawyer and the relationship aspect of it, and hopefully the credibility, and got this position to be an ombudsperson, which is fascinating, from a regulated industry and from an aviation industry, right? We have about 1200 people that have the authority delegated from the FAA to approve FAA regulatory matters and quality and to look at the airplane before it’s released to a customer. Now, again, the FAA can turn that on and off, and a lot of our programs right now that is that delegation is not full delegation because of recent history, but at the same time, it’s it’s a great role, because they can come to me, confidentially, informally, and just ask me questions and get advice, and that’s what the ombuds person role does, and I think we’re the first one to really do it as an aviation manufacturer. And standing that up again was was fascinating. When they called me and said, Hey, we want you to do this, I was sort of like, well, I don’t even know what. Don’t even know what this is. You know, let me, let me google it. Let me figure it out. Let me figure out who else has it. And what you’ll see is it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s worldwide, right? The position is probably more more prevalent in Europe and other places, but in the United States, there are buds in universities, there’s ombuds and hospitals. There’s some in the pharmaceutical industry, but we were really the first one to do it in an aviation manufacturing industry.

14:38  

Yeah, it’s, I love it. You know, you’ve always been an innovator at the cutting edge of things, new to roles, experiencing things I love, all that energy and passion you bring to every role. But we’ve touched on it before. But I want to go back, if I may, to your your navy background, because, you know, spent 30 years in in the Navy, in the US Navy. How was your experience? Periods in the Navy specifically helped contribute to your career as an aviation lawyer. Yeah,

17:51  

when a company is going through a difficult or challenging time, I think that’s when lawyers can really shine, right? Because, you know, it’s very exciting. The relationships become very, very tight, and I gave a lecture a couple weeks ago to some folks, and I just said, look, the best time to be a leader is sometimes in the worst of times, right? Because it’s so formative, especially as a lawyer, because you’ll be sitting around a conference room table and everybody will say, Okay, what does legal say? Whoa. I’ll tell you what I say. But this might not be my decision, but it’s a very, very fascinating industry, not for the faint of heart, because anytime, any time, anything happens in the industry, you know, your your heart does stop a little bit. Say, oh gosh, you know, how are we going to get through this? But the fact that you can get through it, ultimately, you just put you just, you just feel really confident about when it happens the next time, and if it happens?

18:41  

Yeah, absolutely. And I think a mentor said to me very early on to my career, Rob, you know, tough times don’t last, but tough people do right? And I think if you can get through these experiences, and we’ve been through pandemics, you know, like you said, 911 you know, some really challenging and you know, some really heartbreaking phases of our journeys, but you know, it kind of you build this resilience, and you hopefully build this toughness, and you can learn from that and move forward. And I guess, talking of moving forward, we are now living in an AI revolution, you know, a new tech wave of, you know, technology that’s emerging. How do you see technology and artificial intelligence transforming the aviation industry in the next decade, pretty big question to take on that any high level thoughts.

19:25  

It’s fascinating because, again, your guests have covered some of the AI stuff, and what AI can do is incredible. You know, the biggest debate right now is a single cockpit, right? It can, can commercial aircraft be piloted by a single pilot, and will people get on that plane if AI or computers or something else are taken over or doing the secondary role? Now, I’m not going to get into that debate, but at the same time, take it a step further, right? You know, will you get on just like, just like we’re doing an automobile so pilotless? This aircraft totally, totally controlled by either a computer or by someone on the ground. And as squeamish as many people might be about that, I see it happening perhaps in my children’s lives, and people being very comfortable about it now that that that’s just sort of the way the future is and is going to be, because I just think that’s that’s coming at us fast and furious and quite a debate right now.

20:24  

Yeah, it is. And, you know, ultimately, the change is uncomfortable for a lot of people, you know. And I always sort of have this debate with my my wife, and say, you know, our daughter, you know, got a very young daughter, only two years old. You know, she’ll never drive a car. You know, won’t be that won’t be our world, in my view, you know, it’ll be all of these, these things that we’re talking I think you have to, I’ve always believed in having a growth and open mind. Of course, you want to caution and you want to kind of do your own due diligence. But I definitely see, you know that there’s a wave of technology going in one direction. And I encourage people and our listeners to be to be curious and to try and look at the opportunities that present itself. But let’s talk about your your book. You very kindly sent me a copy before jumping on the mics. I’m a big fan. So you are the author of lessons from the admiral, naval wisdom and sea stories the leaders. Love the title as well, an insightful guide for mid career managers, early career lawyers and junior officers who aspire to be promoted. So what is the most powerful leadership lesson you hope for readers to take away from your book?

21:32  

Yeah, I think the most powerful lesson is taking care of people, right and throughout the entire time that, you know, the book is premised on me not being everybody, I have people send me a note saying, you know, nice job, Admiral. No, no, they haven’t read the book yet. I’m not the admiral, right? I’m this young admirals, young, impressionable admirals aid, looking up at an admiral trying to, every day, survive and not get fired under doing the same things we were talking about earlier. So, and I think throughout all of those it was just, you know, try your hardest to do a good job, but as the boss, you should always take care of your people, and that, to me, has been the most important lesson. Good things happen when you take care of your people. And you’d be amazed at the results that will occur in your organization, if they like you

22:21  

Yeah. And in most organizations, and we’ve had global managing partners of, you know, the likes of Cleary Gottlieb and Quinn Emmanuel and all these huge, you know, AMLO, 100 type firms. And you know, when we spoken to leaders, they say, you know, our greatest asset is our people. Yes, we need to ensure that, you know, we put them first, and we give them the best environments, and we protect their well being, their career ambitions and goals. Otherwise, there’s too much choice out there. Now, you know, and people will go elsewhere, or other routes will be, will be discovered. So I think you’re absolutely right in terms of future leadership. And for now, you really do need to take care of, genuinely care and put some, some sort of place, things in place to ensure that you are a modern, fit for purpose leader. So from your book, you know, let’s go on to professional development, which leads quite nicely. Learning by observing both good and bad leaders is a solid strategy for professional development. The knowledge you gain becomes a treasure trove that guides you. Love that quote, What qualities do you believe are essential for effective leadership in the aviation sector specifically, anything to build on from your last point?

23:24  

Yeah, look, the top thing that comes to mind in the aviation sector is always safety, right? It’s essential. Everything you do has to be wrapped around the cornerstone of safety. And it was the same thing in the Navy. It’s the same thing at airlines, at Delta, it’s the same thing at the current, my current employer. So I think that’s absolutely essential. And, you know, pressure checking everything, getting everything done, you know, making sure that the engineers, your safety management system is set up, all of those things are absolutely critical in the aviation industry. That’s the number one, always the number one priority.

23:59  

Yeah, absolutely. And are there, you know, maybe three skills that you’ve acquired through, you know, being in law and aviation for so many years that you absolutely, you know, need. I always say to people, if you lost everything tomorrow, what are the sort of the top three skills that you think are absolutely crucial to your success? What would you say there would be out of interest?

24:20  

Yeah, okay, so we just covered one, right? Taking care of your people. I think the other one would be being prepared. You know, I talk about that in the book, right? I might not be the smartest person in the world, but no one’s going to overwork, overwork me. I’m going to come in, I’m going to know everything that I need to know. I’m going to be prepared. I’m going to know who the decision makers are, I’m going to know what the law is, and I’ll review any of the documents ahead of time. And gosh, the third one, I think, would be being empathetic and gracious, right, recognizing as a leader, when people make mistakes, that people are going to make mistakes, and it’s okay to hold people accountable, but at the same time, and more importantly, it’s also okay to give them a give them a second chance. Right and steer people in the right direction. So I think those three would be the cornerstone of any, any leadership position. Yeah, and

25:07  

I always say there’s, there’s a real need for empathy within it, not just any legal profession, but every profession. Because, like you say, we are human. You know, mistakes are inevitable, and the worst thing you can do is crush your people for one mistake. You know, of course, you know you need to, and the iron is you learn from your mistakes. You know, success really teaches you very little the mistakes you make, you soon learn how to sort of rectify things. You know, is there anything from, you know, your side of things? You would say to people that might be struggling in their legal career currently, because, you know, we go through, you know, boom and tough periods. What would you say to people that may be, you know, struggling in their legal career at the moment, in terms of maybe words of encouragement or any personal experiences you’ve had

25:53  

from that perspective? Yeah, that’s a great question. And I tell this to my daughters too. Look, sometimes it seems like when things are absolutely miserable or there’s a significant struggle. And you said this earlier, it might be a day, a week or a year, but you know, my philosophy has always been, okay, if I’m going to stay here, I’m going to do the best I can to maintain a good attitude and to outlive, Outlast whatever the negativity is, right? And that’s just a survivor aspect. And then the second greatest, I guess, advice I ever got from a managing partner when I was moping around one time in a law firm all the time, complaining about this, complaining about the salary. How come he getting paid more than me? How come she does? He looked at me and said, Mark, he says, I’ve heard enough from from you. And he just said, if you get up every day and you come in here and you’re miserable, you need to find something else to do and take on that responsibility yourself. And that was the, you know, that was the wet rag in the face that I needed to understand. Okay, I’ve got two choices. I can stay here and be happy and make a living, or I can find something else. And that was probably the best advice I ever got, control your own destiny, follow your passion. And if you’re that miserable, take a risk and do something else, right?

27:01  

I love your you. I know we’ve sort of spoken on offer a little while, Mark, but everything you’re there, I just, I just agree with because, you know, I talk a lot about self accountability. You know, it’s very easy to point the finger, but actually, when you are pointing the finger, there’s a lot more fingers pointing back at you in the other direction. And sometimes, you know, you do need to take accountability. If it’s meant to be, it’s up to me. And of course, yes, there are elements, like you say, where we need empathy and we need to inspire and we need to lead people. But if it’s not good for you, if it’s not serving you, then, you know, go and be proactive. Be the master of your own destiny, and go out there and and try new things. And like you say, maybe at the time it might have been quite tough to sort of take that feedback, but actually it’s probably the, probably the best piece of advice you got, as you said, because you made a change. You know, because nothing changes, nothing changes. And you know, you then made things happen and change. And I mean, you’ve had an incredible career doing incredible things, working some of the best organizations in the world on some of the most, you know, amazing projects. What would be one last life lesson you would give to our listeners, not necessarily lawyers, just because you’ve seen and done so much. Is there a sort of life lesson that you live by that you would want to sort of leave our listeners with today? Yeah,

28:09  

well, look, I think it’s important to, you know, if you have faith, I think it’s important to have some some faith to sort of ground you. And then what I tell people all the time, and I learned this when I was doing, you know, 24 years in the reserves, I learned this and is that I can typically manage three things. Well, I think the three most important things are, number one, your family, right? And I know you’re a big family person, because we’re both hashtag girl dads, and number two, number two, your job, because that’s your livelihood, right? So those are the two things. And then the third thing I say is your other for me, 24 years it was the reserves. What other thing can you do and do well? Because I can typically do three things. I can juggle three balls well and prioritize those three and that’s been my focus. And now my other is writing and and speaking and sharing my messages. That’s what pass that’s my passion, and that’s what fuels me. And I tell everybody, I said, What’s your other, right? Is it church? Is it your hobby? Is it, you know, you’re on a board of directors somewhere. I found that if you try to do 15 things, you’re gonna do some of them are, well, you’re gonna drop some balls. But if you focus on those three, you know, family, your your job, that pays the bills, and what is the other thing? And make sure the other thing is something that fuels you. So, you know, writing a book for the past two to three years has fueled me. I mean, it has been very, very difficult, but it is what I get up for early on the Saturday morning and do. And just like you know, your passion for podcasting and all the stuff you’re doing, they’re bucketed very nicely in a niche. So I think those that would be the advice,

29:37  

yeah, absolutely, and I absolutely plus one to everything you just said there. Mark, this has been an absolutely thrilling conversation. It’s amazing how time just flies when you really enjoy and learn all the stories from from your career and indeed experiences. If our listeners, which I’m sure they will want to know more about your career, or indeed, grab a copy of your book or find out more information,

31:05  

for the link to join our community there, over and out. Hey listeners, we’re super excited to share a brand new way for you to connect with the legally speaking podcast, introducing fan mail. Got questions about a recent episode. Thoughts on legal careers, or just want to share some super positive feedback with us, simply click the send us a text link in the show notes, and your message will come straight to us. We can’t wait to hear from our amazing legal community. Thank you so much for all your support from all of us here at the team. We really appreciate it.