On today’s Legally Speaking Podcast, I am delighted to be joined by Sue Wakefield. Sue is the Director and Head of Business Development at ZEDRA. She has over 30 years of experience working in the financial service industry, specialising in onshore trust structuring. Sue holds a number of leadership positions and is a member of STEP.

So why should you be listening in? 

You can hear Rob and Sue discussing:

– Why Independent Escrow Providers Are In High Demand

– The Importance of Escrow and Trust During Complex Transactions

– Escrow Services Expanding Beyond M&A Into Other Industries

– The Impact of Tech, Especially In Identification and Verification

– Fixed Fees, Attractive Interest Rates and No Minimum Time Requirements

Connect with Sue Wakefield here – https://www.linkedin.com/in/sue-wakefield-tep-14232725

Transcript

Sue Wakefield  0:00  

Independent escrow agents are now in huge demand. We’re very privileged at ZEDRA to work repeatedly with law firms regularly in these transactions. And I think the key to that is, as I said, the FCA regulation giving you that ultimate trust. Once you start a relationship with somebody that’s independent and that you can pass all your escrow work to, it becomes a really great working relationship where both parties know exactly what’s needed on either side. So a true independent provider is something that most law firms have over the last couple of years, started to recognise and work with.

Robert Hanna  0:33  

On today’s legally speaking Podcast. I’m delighted to be joined by Sue Wakefield. Sue is the Director and Head of Business Development at ZEDRA. She has over 30 years of experience working in the financial services industry, specialising in onshore trust structuring. Sue also holds a number of leadership positions as a member of step so a very big, warm welcome to the show, Sue.

Sue Wakefield  0:54  

Thank you very much. Great to be here, Rob, thank you. 

Robert Hanna  0:58  

Oh, it’s a pleasure to have you on the show. I’m very excited for today’s discussion. Before we get into everything, we do have a customary icebreaker question here on the legally speaking podcast, which is on the scale of one to 10, with 10 being very real, what would you rate the hit TV series suits in terms of its reality of the law? If you’ve seen it.

Sue Wakefield  1:18  

I haven’t seen too many additions. I have to be honest, I’ve seen one or two, but I would probably rate it two or three, I would say. And based on what I’ve seen great, great entertainment, but not sure it’s too real,

Robert Hanna  1:33  

fully justified, and we can now move swiftly on to talk all about you. So to begin with, Sue, would you mind telling our listeners a bit about your background and career journey?

Sue Wakefield  1:40  

Certainly, yeah, I’d be delighted to so I’ve actually been in the financial services industry for 40 years now, and started my career in Bart for Barclays Bank Trust Company, where I predominantly dealt with private client trusts. So on the private client side, latter years in Barclays, held some leadership positions and sort of developed my wider skills, I would say, in 2018 Barclays sold its trust businesses to ZEDRA, and so became part of the Zed and then moved into business development, which has been a role that I’ve hugely enjoyed, and growing the services that we had already, growing our intermediary network, and obviously building on new services, escrow that we’re going to be talking about today was one of those services that we did actually deal with when we were in the Barclays world. But, yeah, it’s grown considerably over the last couple of years. So I’m head of business development now for ZEDRA in the UK, for Zoe’s Trust Company business, and also one of the directors too.

Robert Hanna  2:47  

Yeah. Very impressive, I have to say. And as you alluded to there, we are going to be talking about sort of Escrow a bit more so. For those who are less familiar, what is it in the context of M&A?

Sue Wakefield  2:57  

So Escrow is widely used across across many services, but in an M and a context, and often, the sale of a business brings some issues and money, a percentage of the sale proceeds has to be put to one side in an escrow account to cover warranties, indemnities, other liabilities, often for about 12 to 24 months in a secure escrow account aligned to that in M and A, we also see payment agent services that ZEDRA is also involved in. So that’s the actual payment out of the sale proceeds to multiple shareholders on completion day.

Robert Hanna  3:39  

Love it. Okay. And thank you again for giving us such a concise and helpful answer for our listeners to grapple but why is then, I guess, escrow such a critical tool that’s used.

Sue Wakefield  3:50  

Yeah, hugely critical I think, as you can imagine, in a transaction that can be very complex, and we see multiple problems along the way, and I think often at the end of a deal that may have been going on for months and possibly years, there has to be concession on either side. Usually the concession is around making provision for, perhaps insurance that’s due, taxation that’s due, and money has to be put to one side, and so both parties agree to put X amount into an account that will then be an escrow account, and it actually often saves the deal so, particularly crucial, and particularly if you’ve been going through a difficult transaction and you come to a stalemate at the end, and that’s kind of what

Robert Hanna  4:39  

I was going to allude to Next, in terms of, you know, ensuring you know you’ve done a lot of the hard work. You want it just to sort of end, hopefully nicely in that sort of m and a deal, because it’s often seen, isn’t it as more of a tick boxing exercise in M and A but you’ve called it more of an unsung hero, which I quite like. So can you explain why it plays that such critical role, and how the wrong provider can. Actually derail a deal, as you’re alluding to there?

Sue Wakefield  5:02  

Yes, yeah, I think we see regularly that right at the end of a transaction, there’s the only then a realisation that an escrow account is going to be needed and and it can quickly derail, derail a transaction. So it’s important to work with a provider that is very can move quickly, can move swiftly, and is used to dealing with last minute transactions. And ZEDRA has a number of provisions in place to make sure that we can step in and move and move quickly. I think it’s also important to make sure that you’re working with an an escrow agent that is regulated. So there are a number of non regulated escrow providers in the UK. So an FCA regulation is particularly important, also a firm that has good legal underpinning, so somebody that’s got good legal precedence, well drafted, that can actually move, um, confidently forward, as you know, I’m sure, in the UK, our anti money laundering regulations are particularly high, and if you’re FCA, regulated even more so. So having a firm that can move swiftly through the collation of anti money laundering documentation, again, is really important when you when you’re looking to hit a deadline. And I think finally, somebody that’s working with Tier One banking institutions. So you’re going to be parking potentially significant sums into an escrow account. You want to put it into a with a banking institution in the UK that you’re comfortable with, and hits those tier one criteria.

Robert Hanna  6:36  

And that’s the word I was probably going to move on to, around trust. You know, it’s so important, isn’t it? Particularly when you’re looking at those high values, what would you say to that in terms of, why does it matter that you trust who delivers an escrow for you?

Sue Wakefield  6:48  

Yeah, I think we’re very privileged at ZEDRA to work repeatedly with law firms who work with us regularly in these sorts of transactions. And I think the key to that is, as I said, the FCA regulation giving you that ultimate trust that you know we’re authorised to do it, but actually service levels that that are our tip top too, and they’re busy, obviously managing the transaction at their end. So knowing that that they can pass over the escrow part of work to somebody that’s that’s very used to doing it, and can do that with minimal sort of effort from their side is particularly important. But, yeah, trust is a big thing across financial services. You know, you would always want to work with partners that you trust, but actually working with a partner that that is tried and tested in this arena has good legal precedence and works with top banking institutions and has that FCA regulation is probably the key, the key areas that if I was looking for an escrow agent, I’d look for,

Robert Hanna  7:49  

yeah. And the other word on top of trust, which obviously orbits around lawyers day in day out, is risk, isn’t it? And sort of, you know, many firms default, as you alluded to, to big banks, or perhaps in house legal accounts for for escrow. But what are some of the risks or limitations, perhaps, with that approach, and how does that draw offer something different?

Sue Wakefield  8:09  

That’s an interesting question, actually, because I used to be and Cedric used to be part of a big bank. So we were, we were Barclays, and whilst big banks still offer excellent escrow facilities solutions, what we’ve seen over the last couple of years is their minimum entry criteria to offer an escrow account has risen quite considerably. So when people come to ZEDRA and say, you know, what’s your minimum value for you to open an escrow account, we don’t actually have one, so we’re happy to do that sort of lower value transaction. I mean, some of the banks are 3 million plus now, and there are lots of M&A transactions that need to put money, you know, significantly lower than that. So I think that’s, that’s the key thing on the on the big banks, the the law firms. So, so I think this is the biggest reason that escrow agents, independent escrow agents, are now in huge demand. The SRA rule. Rules around client account and banking facilities have been tightened up considerably, and all the law firms are now looking at their practices and actually Concerningly so worried that they’re perhaps offering escrow when they shouldn’t be. So the rules say that law firms can’t retain client funds post transaction, so an escrow, essentially, in an M&A transaction will always be post transaction. And so they should now be looking to employ firms like Cedra, who can, who can support with that. There’s still quite a number of grey areas around that. That’s SRA rule, but I think increasingly law firms are thinking, you know, I’d much rather be passing that on to somebody that can do it well, and we’re absolutely sure that we’re ticking the compliance box from our side,

Robert Hanna  9:52  

yeah, and I always talk about specific is terrific in terms of use the experts that are experts at what they do and what they know, rather than. Perhaps, well, maybe we could do this. We’re not sure. It’s a grey area. And I think you make a very valid point, particularly with regards to the SRA and, you know, just making sure that you’re compliant and dealing with someone that just does it day in, day out you don’t. It removes that headache, removes that friction. It’s a better experience for everyone. And it’s just a really good approach. And I guess let’s dive a bit deeper than to to Zoe’s approach, because it positions itself as fast, flexible, proactive, in an industry that’s very much the opposite at times. So can you share maybe an example of where that approach made a real difference to a deal actually closing on time?

Sue Wakefield  10:30  

Yeah. I mean, quite often we’re faced with, you know, we need, we need to close a week on Friday. You need to be ready for it. But the one time that that was particularly busy for us. If you think back to just before the autumn budget, there was rumour arrived that that capital gains tax rates were going to be increased, and that caused a real flurry in M&A activity. M&A transactions, everybody wanting to get in ahead of the 30th of October Budget Day. And so we were already busy, but I distinctly remember having a client telephone me on the 26th of October, saying, I’m selling my family business. We really need to have this escrow account in place, and can you do it? And yeah, we said, let’s try. Let’s try. You know, we pulled out all the stops, and actually the account was open ready on the 29th of October. Sure enough, budget day came. CGT rates went up as as predicted, and certainly this particular client saved 10s, if not hundreds of 1000s of pounds in tax. So yeah, that was that was a really hard deadline that we were very intent on meeting if you’re a client.

Robert Hanna  11:43  

Then listening to that is the things that the client can do in readiness to make your job easier, to maybe make things even faster. Are there things that you could see that maybe some tips, best best practices, if they’re thinking about going down this route? Yeah.

Sue Wakefield  11:55  

So I suppose, I suppose my advice would always be, and always is, to lawyers that are referring business to us. Please come early in the deal. You know, please come to us as early as you can. We can get all our ducks in a row. We can make sure the AML is covered. But actually, if it is, if it is the 11th Hour kind of Escrow that’s needed, and be prepared to to share, to share information with us. I mean, ZEDRA, where we really pride ourselves on moving quickly is we have legal precedents ready to go, and they need minor tweaking per transaction, but actually they’re fundamentally super documents. Takes a lot of time away from from, you know, lawyers acting on either side. We also support quickly with AML, so the anti money laundering work. We use it to verify, electronically, verify people and so and we have bank accounts ready and open that the FCA have have ruled are acceptable with with Tier One banking institutions, as I’ve mentioned already. So it’s being prepared to offer the information that we need. But the advice is always come to us as early as you can.

Robert Hanna  13:08  

Yeah, no, agreed. And just from a curiosity point of view, AI and Technology is everywhere, and advancements of businesses is everywhere. Are you seeing any tech disruption for good in your area at all?

Sue Wakefield  13:21  

Yeah, definitely. I think in the escrow world, actually, it’s been quite interesting to watch that develop. And there’s a number of online escrow agents that have have worked very well at probably there’s sort of lower levels, but certainly identification and verification has been a super win for us, and that has really helped, and I can only see that increasing and improving over years, but probably slightly contrary to that, I still think the old fashioned service is is paramountly important when you’re dealing with corporate particularly corporate deals lawyers knowing that there is a dedicated person that they can speak to out of hours as well, if you’re dealing with, obviously transatlantic deals. And so there’s always that element of people skills being particularly important. But yeah, the AI and the it around the edges are undoubtedly helping, and I’m sure they’ll continue to.

Robert Hanna  14:20  

yeah, I’m sure they will as well. And again, you’ve alluded to sort of, you know, with all of this, it’s about making and saving deals, isn’t it? I think that’s the key. So again, could you maybe share a scenario where an escrow made or potentially saved a deal that might have potentially collapsed, if not sort of already sorted?

Sue Wakefield  14:39  

I think most of them probably do, if I’m really honest, I think certainly, yeah, as I mentioned at the beginning, the concessionary placing of monies to cover unforeseen eventualities. Often, you know, if that wasn’t put in place, I’m pretty sure deals wouldn’t happen. So So I think they almost make or break a deal, almost. Every time. But there’s probably a slightly different example that that might be worth sharing, and we’ve seen quite a few of these just just recently, um, where landowners are giving up land for solar farms. So quite, you know, quite topical, and obviously something that will increase re or one of the main reasons that they’re willing to do that is if money is put aside in an escrow account for the life of the solar farm, so probably 3040, years. So a significantly lengthy escrow account, I would say. And money is then that money is used at the termination of the solar farms usage to make good the land, put it, restore it to its original condition. And actually, without that escrow account and that ability to do that, I’m pretty sure landowners wouldn’t agree to those sort of arrangements. So probably just a slightly different one, but actually something that Escrow is being used for increasingly.

Robert Hanna  15:59  

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Sue Wakefield  17:03  

No, that. That’s a really good point. I mean, certainly from Zeta perspective, we deal with with international deals regularly and and it’s quite unusual to have two UK parties, if I’m honest, these days there’s, there’s often one UK party and then an international one. Even more important, I suppose, to have that multi currency opportunity. So we work, obviously, in us, dollars, euros, as you would expect, but that ability to make payments in multi currencies using great banking facilities, and to have a service that can support, as I mentioned, out of hours communication, if need be. But yeah, it’s, as I say, very unusual for it all to be UK based these days.

Robert Hanna  17:47  

Yeah, and that’s the world we’re in, the more connected, international world that we live. You’ve talked a lot about sort of zebras approach. Kind of want to sort of put a twist on that in terms of first class service. We always talk about, sort of, it’s not enough to satisfy as clients. You want to delight clients and go above and beyond. So from a Zoe perspective, how do you ensure that you deliver that first class service to your clients time and time again? Is there anything unique within your process or things that you do?

Sue Wakefield  18:11  

I think, I think we do it really well, and that’s supported by the number of repeat repeat clients that we have. And for me, probably top of that list is dedicated relationship support. So from the very first moment that somebody contacts us, we provide a fee quotation, we provide very detailed list of due diligence requirements, so all up front they can see exactly what what is expected of them, but yeah, dedicated relationship team that are there and willing to support out of hours if necessary. And I also think the legal precedence that I mentioned earlier, so the fact that a lawyer is not having to draft an escrow account or an escrow agreement on each occasion that you know, cuts through the time barrier. Both sets of lawyers can review that at the same time, and it’s it’s done and dusted as far as far as they’re concerned. So yeah, first class service means exactly that, direct line telephone numbers so that we can be reached, and the willingness to be available to them, even if they’re, you know, doing a USD or so evenings and weekends too, when needed.

Robert Hanna  19:26  

Yeah, I think it’s like you’re saying responsive, human and high quality. And I guess that’s comes on to client expectations. There we talked about the first class service, but the only thing that changes is constant change, right in business and expectations. So in your area. How are clients expectations around escrow and Payment Services genuinely evolving? Particularly as you mentioned, a lot of them tend to be cross border or high stakes transactions.

Sue Wakefield  19:49  

Yeah, I think Payment Services is worth mentioning, actually, and that’s an area that we’ve seen increase considerably over the last 1224, months, probably. And again, this is the D. Risking attitude of law firms. So just, just to recap, this is where we we collect the sale proceeds on completion day and actually distribute that to multiple shareholders, usually, and they are almost certainly not in the UK. The majority of them will be, will be overseas. So I think that’s the expectation of clients, is that that happens seamlessly. And there’s quite a bit of work upfront to ensure that that happens seamlessly on completion day. And again, you can imagine, you’re expecting a huge sum of money to land in your bank account as a shareholder, if it hasn’t arrived by, you know, close of business that day. They’re expecting people to quite rightly so, do some interrogation, where is it? Has it been caught somewhere in the banking system? So it’s client expectations are high, and it’s exceptionally important that we meet them and exceed them, as you’re saying. But the payment services, I’ve seen a real increase in expectation of our service in that sort of area?

Robert Hanna  21:03  

Yeah, and I’m sure it’ll probably continue to sort of increase as well as time goes on. I talk a lot about when you’re in sales and professional services, time, quality and cost. I think we’ve talked a lot about the time and the quality, but the cost. Let’s talk more about the cost, because do you feel the costs associated with putting in place an escrow account. Are acceptable? Maybe, could you give some examples of what typical costs might involve?

Sue Wakefield  21:26  

I think it’s probably worth looking at the alternatives to escrow to be able to compare. Is it is acceptable? Is it is it worth doing? And historically, insurance has been used. So to give the example of the M&A so they, you know, a lawyer would take out an insurance premium to cover the potential and clawback of funds, and insurance premiums have gone up. Insurance is typically harder to actually gain as well these days. The difference, of course, with Escrow is that the money is still there, and the money, if not used, actually returns anyway. So you don’t lose, you don’t lose the sum that you put put forward. Not only do you not lose it, interest is earned on the escrow accounts that that we we look after at exceptionally good rates. So they’re all reasons to make the fee that we charge for an escrow account so much lower, and you can actually offset, I suppose, the interest on, on, you know, the fee that ZEDRA will charge. And historically, I think fees have been set around, and May, and maybe this is more around, the banks actually set around percentage rates of values that are put in escrow. And Zoe has never charged on that basis. We charge on a fixed fee basis, based on a certain number of criteria. But to give you a couple of examples, so if we were to set up an escrow account for 200 300,000 pounds, something like that, fairly simple. We would charge around 2000 pounds plus VAT to do that, and that would be an all inclusive fee, including the legal documentation. So often when I’m quoting fees actually for escrow, people like, Oh, I thought it’d be much more expensive than that. Obviously there are boundaries on and fees do change, but I think the perception is that it’s going to be more expensive than it is.

Robert Hanna  23:25  

is there a minimum time you have to have a an escrow account for and you know, on those sort of interest levels, if they if it’s for a longer period, do you guarantee higher rates? Is there anything connected to that at all?

Sue Wakefield  23:36  

No, we don’t at all, actually. So there’s no minimum time, and interest rate is is flat across across the board, and, and as I mentioned, the the solar farm, one some of them are quite long arrangements. Some very, very short. The average is probably 1218, months, something like that. And but because we pull cash in our in our accounts, we’ve we have very attractive interest rates for low value escrow accounts and so, again, worth considering.

Robert Hanna  24:08  

And life happens. Things happen, things change. If it starts off by saying escrow for five years, but maybe it’s four years used, example there of like 30 or 40. How does that work? Does that is that once it’s fixed, it’s fixed can’t be changed. Give us a bit of a flavour.

Sue Wakefield  24:24  

That’s really good point, actually, Rob So, so the the legal precedents that we use are very flexible, so there’s always the opportunity, and you’re absolutely right. You know, when you set an escrow account, you you have an idea of how long you’re going to need it for, but there’s, there’s nothing so, so funds can be released at any point during that during that period of time, and we tend to quote fees based on what we’ve been estimates we’ve been given. But again, very, very flexible to be able to change those. Yeah, similarly, they can be extended. So you know, if you and. Because in the precedent agreement, actually there is a sort of long stop end date, but actually we’ve reached some of those, and the funds are still needed to be retained so that can be extended again by mutual agreement of both parties.

Robert Hanna  25:13  

And obviously we have a lot of lawyers and law firms who tune into the show that you know, maybe they’re looking at these routes or looking at new providers. What would you’ve touched on, maybe the relationship side. But is there anything the lawyers could be doing to make your lives easier? From a collaboration point of view, would like to see lawyers do more of

Sue Wakefield  25:30  

I think, I think actually looking and looking for escrow, independent escrow providers, I think that’s probably still an area that, whilst they’ve started to explore over the last couple of years, not as much as maybe they should. And I know there are still law firms that are still erring on the side of you know, we’re okay, we’re still within the SRA guidelines. But actually, once you start a relationship with somebody that’s independent and that you can pass all your escrow work to it becomes a really great working relationship where both parties know exactly what’s needed on either side. I think the independence is also really important. So two parties to a m and a transaction, and then only one of the lawyers retains the retains the funds. There’s sometimes a bit of nervousness on the other side. So a true independent provider is yeah. Is something that that most law firms have have over the last couple of years, started to recognise and and work with.

Robert Hanna  26:32  

Yeah. And like you say, that that relationship piece as well, you probably get to really know one another. The kind of working practices you can be a lot more quick, quicker, efficient, and it’s more tailored services. Okay, let’s look forward. Then, what future developments can we expect regarding sort of Escrow in the coming 510, years? Would you say we’ve probably touched on it a little bit?

Sue Wakefield  26:51  

I would say, definitely more on the IT and the AI side, and I probably see that more coming around the anti money laundering sides of things and But interestingly, a lot of the escrow work has probably emanated from the US, and everything they do involves escrow, certainly their real estate. You know, normal sort of individuals buying, selling properties use escrow that hasn’t yet come. Come over the over the Atlantic, possibly may heard, you know, over the last couple of years, possibly that that may happen. So I think the use of escrow will continue to to increase. I think it’s a great vehicle across. I mean, I know we’ve specifically talked about M and A here today, but the construction industry, real estate, generally, private equity deals, you know, all, all of that, all of that sort of work, we regularly see escrow being needed for a variety of different reasons. So I can probably see escrow expanding further into perhaps more into private client work. That’s here to stay, if

Robert Hanna  28:04  

I may just sort of lean in a bit more on that, because again, in terms of these areas, or again, for other lawyers, or from people from other areas who might be thinking about this as well, like, you know, you mentioned private equity construction, would you go a little bit deeper in terms of what you what you see, and maybe just a couple of examples,

Sue Wakefield  28:19  

just, yeah, no, very happy to and we’ve seen increasingly construction, actually, and that’s probably worth mentioning that historically, they used, they used bonds to cover their liabilities, and that bonds have become very expensive, become very scarce, and escrow has become the new norm, I think, across across construction and nervousness. The reason I think most of these deals are put in place is nervousness on both sides, in terms of solvency of businesses. Again, probably since covid We’ve seen a real increase in there. And escrow accounts are used slightly differently in the construction industry, so they tend to stage payments out during the life of the escrow. So you imagine, you know, a multi million pound office block, and they’re using the escrow to fund the glazing company, for example. So as various landmarks in the construction process, a hit money is then passed out, and it just gives confidence on either side that first of all, the funding is there to pay the contractor, but secondly, that the contractor isn’t going to have all the funding ahead of ahead of needing it. So I’m sure that will continue to increase. That sort of thing, private equity, again, you know, the private equity deals globally have, and I’m sure will continue to increase, and were used consistently to make payments out to shareholders to at the end of private equity deals.

Robert Hanna  29:45  

Yeah, and I think it’s going to be an exciting space. And with that, we try and look at things from a careers perspective. Obviously, you know, a lot of people listening in are probably have ambitions to move into the into the law, but there are also so many areas where you can work. Work in and around it, from a legal technology or service into in this case. So would there be any piece of advice for people who might be thinking about maybe something connected to more of your background and journey, and any careers advice you’d give to those who might be interested?

Sue Wakefield  30:13  

Yeah, I definitely think, I mean across the banking industry, escrow and Payment Services is an area that continues to grow, and it’s very nicely aligned with the legal the legal side obviously underpinning every escrow agreement, every escrow arrangement is a legal document. They can be as complex or as simple as needs be, but they need lawyers to draft them, so both the banking side and the legal side, the payment services and the commercial side of of these arrangements is really exciting. We’re going to be recruiting at ZEDRA for for more people in this space. So yeah, exciting times.

Robert Hanna  30:56  

We’ve heard it here first, and that, again, leads me to say, you know, if our listeners want to know more about ZEDRA, or indeed, potentially apply in the future, or indeed about your own career. Where can they go to find out more? Feel free to share any websites or any social media handles. We’ll also share them as episode for you too.

Sue Wakefield  31:10  

Thank you. Thank you so so obviously you can search Sue Wakefield on on LinkedIn if you’d like to, and I’d also recommend ZEDRA group on LinkedIn. So we’ve got, I think, almost 30,000 followers now and regularly share insights and job opportunities and that sort of thing. Then there is Zed calm, which has a specific page, and several pages actually on escrow and payment services. So yeah, lots, lots to follow us on. And yeah, we’d be delighted if you did as well.

Robert Hanna  31:39  

I’m delighted we managed to make today’s discussion happen. It’s been fascinating, really drilling into escrow and all the opportunities and yeah, things that you see the place, planning out in the future. So it leads me to say thanks again, so much for joining us on the legally speaking podcast sponsored by creo. But for now, from all of us, wishing you lots of continued success over and out. Thank you for listening to this week’s episode. If you like the content here, why not check out our world leading content and Collaboration Hub, the legally speaking club, over on Discord. Go to our website, www.legallyspeakingpodcast.com. For the link to join our community there, over and out.