Join Rob Hanna and Hemant Kashyap, the Chief Product Officer at Clio, as they dive into Clio’s new features, product strategy and AI tools. This episode is a crash-course in making a mission-motivated difference, particularly in the legal space.  

So why should you be listening in?  

You can hear Rob and Hemant discussing:  

• The shockingly statistics about access to legal representation  

• Hemant’s most valuable skill 

• Major trends in legal tech 

• How to align customer needs and product development  
• The reality of life as a Chief Product Officer  

🤖 Want to learn more? Head over to this episode on Perplexity for AI assistance to answer your questions. Click the link above to explore the topics discussed in this episode in more detail.

Transcript

Rob Hanna 00:00 

On today’s legally speaking podcast, I’m delighted to be joined by Hemant Kashyap. Hemant is the Chief Product Officer at Clio. He is also responsible for aligning customer needs with product opportunities, whilst ensuring strategies to keep Clio as the global leader in cloud based legal technology. Hemant was previously the program director at IBM and co founder and president at Whittle, Vice President of inspire, and senior director and vice president at service Titan. He has more than 20 years of experience developing business strategies, designing, building and commercializing consumer products, platform, technologies and partner ecosystem. So a very big, warm welcome, Hemant. 

Hemant Kashyap 00:39 

Thank you, Rob. Very excited to be here.  

Rob Hanna 00:41 

Oh, it’s an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. And before we dive into all your amazing projects and experiences today, we do have a customary icebreaker question here on the legally speaking podcast, which is on the scale of one to 1010, being very real. What would you rate the hit TV series suits in terms of its reality of the law. If you’ve seen it?

Hemant Kashyap 01:05 

I have. I watched the first few seasons of suits, and I did enjoy it. I did watch them before I joined Clio. And now that I’ve, you know, learned more about how things are really, how they really work in the space maybe two or three, I would say, you know, I wouldn’t rate it very high. It’s all very Of course, it’s legal drama, and it’s more about the interpersonal things going on in the office, more so than the cases. But, you know, it’s still entertaining. But yeah, I’d probably give it a two or three.

Rob Hanna 01:41 

And with that, you justified your answer. We’re going to move swiftly on to talk all about you. So would you mind starting by telling our listeners a bit about your background and career journey? 

Hemant Kashyap 01:52 

Sure. Yeah, I’ve been in tech pretty much my entire career. That’s almost 25 years, a lot of experience. I started off as a software engineer, actually writing code, and then after about eight or nine years of being a software developer, I switched over to the business side of things. I went and got my MBA, and then I worked, I worked as a management consultant for a number of years, and that was a really great experience, you know, straddling both worlds and really crafting business strategies for in a variety of industries, for a variety of clients. I then had my own startup, which was widdle, and that was a really great experience, you know, chasing a startup dream for five years or so, and there’s no better way to learn how to run the different aspects of the of a business than doing it yourself. And, you know, in addition to running R and D and, you know, engineering and product, I had to learn how to manage the books and run payroll and become an expert in marketing and sales and sell to our customers and a variety of things, people related issues, so customer service and so that was really great. I was then the VP of product at Inspire, which was in the clean tech space. And then most recently, I was VP of product at service Titan, which is a global leader in vertical SaaS, focused on the trades, so plumbing, electrical, heating and cooling shops and a lot of at a very high level, similarities to the workflows in legal in the sense you’ve got to do marketing, you’ve got to do intake, you’ve got to schedule the job. You’ve got to get the work done whatever repair, whatever thing has to be repaired or installed, whatever thing has to be installed, you’ve got to track time. You’ve end materials, you’ve got to generate an invoice. You’ve got to take payments. So there are a lot of similarities and, and, yeah. And then I’ve been here for over a year at Clio now. And, you know, the sum of all those experiences that I’ve had, a really, you know, has helped set a really great foundation and helped me get an accelerated start at Clio, yeah. 

Rob Hanna 04:19 

And what an incredible career, and, you know, just reeling off that, and, you know, experience is the greatest teacher, isn’t it? And you mentioned there with your own startup, and you know, I was just going through my head and the businesses I’ve sort of been involved with or helping with, yeah, we are sales, then you’re marketing, you’re everything. When you’re starting up and you’re picking up all these little skills or those nuances. It could be a turn of phrase to a particular client, whatever it may be, an emotional play all of these little things on top of the products and service you provide. So thank you for sharing that. So let’s fast forward then to today, because you are the chief product officer of Clio, who sponsor our share, and we’re big fans of Clio and fully support the mission that Clio has to transform the legal experience for all. But would you mind telling our listeners a little bit more about what your role. Involves in terms of being a chief product officer, specifically at a legal tech business?  

Hemant Kashyap 05:05 

Sure, yeah. So I am responsible for the overall vision, the strategy behind that vision, and then the execution against that strategy in terms of our roadmap and all the products and features that we build at Clio. And you know, it’s, as you probably know, or our listeners might know, we have a number of products. We have our flagship legal practice management product, which is called Manage. We’ve got our marketing and intake platform, CRM and platform called grow. And then we have a documents automation product called draft. In addition, we have Clio payments. And then, most recently, we launched Clio accounting, Clio file. And we’re in almost in the process of launching duo, which is our AI assistant for general availability. So, you know, a lot of things, we have a very large surface area for our product, and each one of those requires carefully thought out vision and strategy, and what are we going to build next? 

Rob Hanna 06:10 

Yeah. And, you know, if ever a company screamed innovation, it would be Clio. And I remember, and I got excited for Jack’s keynote. Jack Newton, obviously, CEO of Clio, for our listeners may not be aware his keynote last year back in in Nashville, about Cleo duo. And I just thought, wow, now AI and the next wave, and then robotics after that, and everything else that’s coming. I’m super excited. I know Clio is always at the cutting edge of that. So with that, then our listeners sort of okay. They understand what it is you do. But what does a typical day look like for you? Break down, what a typical day in your world’s like, yeah. 

Hemant Kashyap 06:41 

The interesting thing is, no two days are the same. You know, every day is different because you could be and there’s a lot of context switching that needs to happen. You know, you could be in a meeting where you’re reviewing or working on a five year plan, and what are we going to do five years from now? And the very next meeting could be the specific designs for a specific feature, and you’re sweating the location of buttons and pixels and things like that. And the very next meeting after that could be something personnel related that you know needs to be handled. The next meeting after that is meeting partners or with customers and so and that’s what I love about this job. You know, being in product is you’ve got you you get to work on all of those areas and and so it’s no two days, plus you might have escalations, things that need your immediate attention. You know, whether it’s a customer that’s happy or unhappy, and you’ve you know you need, need to meet with them. So a lot of it is balancing the need to do longer term planning, longer term visioning and strategy, and what are we going to do with shorter term execution? 

Rob Hanna 07:56 

Yeah. And again, there’s a number of skills that you need within that day to day that you just described there, that you would have picked up. This can lead on to my next question, but I love that you talked about because details matter in business, and like you say, where that button goes, because I know Cleo is always thinking of the customer experience, right that journey, not just from intake, but also when they come onto the journey, and you really want to delight them, and I know that level of detail really goes into everything that you do, but you would have picked up a lot of transferable skills, because, like you say, You came from heating, plumbing, engineering, some people may not be able to sort of complete that. The fact you’ve gone from these industries then into legal. So how have that sort of service Titan inspire days really helped you prepare for your role today in Clio?  

Hemant Kashyap 08:42 

Yeah, you start to see patterns across industries, and that really helps you to bring best practices with you from other industries and innovation that might be happening in other industries. And at service Titan, we had similar problems. For example, there are small shops with two people in it, and then there are giant enterprise level businesses that have over 10,000 technicians going out there in their trucks every day. And so designing a product that works well for for both ends of the spectrum is a pretty challenging design. Is a design challenge that one has to solve. How do you make a product that’s simple for just a two person operation, and one that also scales for such a large operation, for enterprise customers, there were a lot of other things. For example, a lot of innovation happening in that space when it comes to payments. So a lot of experience there around point of sale experiences and such that I’ve brought with me to Clio. It’s been really great to see some of the features we’ve launched in the last year, like tap to pay, which is basically it makes your mobile phone or terminal those are some things that are also being adopted in other industries, the world of. Marketing is an interesting one. I would say that that industry is maybe further along than the legal space in terms of level of sophistication, of how they do marketing. How do they find customers, how do they do that intake? And so I’m excited to bring a lot of those best practices to the legal industry. I know things are different here, but there’s certainly, you know, whenever I talk to our customers, also, they are hungry for solutions, and they’re hungry for Clio to teach them better ways of doing things, because they don’t have experience in that. And you wouldn’t expect our customers to be experts in marketing by any stretch. They’re lawyers. They their craft is, you know, they want to just practice their craft. And so there are definitely a lot of other areas where we can help them out. The same thing with documents and document management. There’s a lot of inefficiencies there. Our customers spend about 60 to 70% of their day in documents. And so there’s a lot we can be doing there in terms of just making those workflows easier. And as from our legal Trends report, it’s very clear that, on average, our customers only have about three billable hours a day. So there’s a lot we can do to get that up. So lot of transferable lessons from those other industries. 

Rob Hanna 11:16 

Yeah, and yeah, it’s amazing how you’ve been able to kind of, you know, skill stack, if you like, everything that you’ve done to then continually, sort of, you know, progress your career and go on to great roles. And, you know, I love how you describe Clio there, because the way I look at it, it’s always looking to try and, you know, reduce friction. You know, you’re looking at efficiency, you’re looking at improving workflows. You’re not looking for confusion. You’re looking for fusion. And I guess what I loved about when we first started partnering with Clio was the mission. And I thought, Do you know what that’s so audacious to feel that you can achieve that mission? That I love it. You know? I really, really love the the boldness. So what do you get most excited about cleo’s mission, which, again, for people not familiar, is to transform the legal experience for all which to kind of put in context, doesn’t just mean lawyers. So tell us what excites you most about that mission? 

Hemant Kashyap 12:01 

Yeah, the mission I’ve always been drawn to mission driven companies, and in my opinion, the mission of Clio, it doesn’t get better than that. And what that was, one of the main reasons why I chose to come to Clio, was the opportunity to transform the legal experience for all. And underlying that is that access is an access to justice theme, right? And so we talk a lot about expanding access to justice. At Clio, we have this, this visual that we show in any forum that we can about this iceberg, which shows that only 23% of people that have a legal issue are able to get legal help in the US, 77% of people that have a legal issue are not able to get legal help. And that’s the stuff that’s that’s a portion of the iceberg that sits below the waterline. And that’s not just true for the US, it’s true around the world and and so we take that expanding access to justice goal very seriously, and so that’s for the end clients, right? It’s not for the lawyers. It’s like it’s really helping the customers, the clients of our customers. And that’s one area, of course, we, you know, we started off with helping out lawyers and making the life of lawyers very efficient, but then more recently, with Clio file, for example, we’re now starting to figure out, how can we make things more efficient with the courts? Because the courts play a very important role here too, and making those workflows efficient also helps to expand access to justice, we’re investing a lot in AI, and AI is generally recognized that it’s going to have a greater impact on the legal industry, more so than most other industries, and so we want to be at the forefront of that, and we believe that it’s a moral responsibility For us to lead on AI and bring those the efficiencies and the incredible productivity that it could potentially unlock in the legal space, which ultimately will expand that access to justice mission and transform the legal experience for us. 

Rob Hanna 14:14 

Yeah, really well said, and that was a clear synergy for us as well, and something that we really support. And we’ve had presidents of the Law Society of England and world come on to the show. We’ve had diversity inclusion leaders. We have social mobility leaders. We’ve had leaders from all around the world. And you know, absolutely, we take the view that technology for good and technology driven by the right mission focused companies such as Clio can really help reduce that access to justice gap, and, you know, I’m excited to see that continue as years and years have come. And I get excited also by lots of legal tech businesses that are also trying to, you know, work with that vision as well, because I think once we crack it, I think it’ll be a wonderful legacy for all of those that do get involved. Hemant, you’ve talked a lot about some of the projects, and like you say, I’ve got to get excited at. Clio Con last year, when tap to pay came out, I got my phone out. I thought, Wow. My late grandfather, he ran his own law firm in a bricks and mortar. He would just not be able to condone, you know, that whole aspect of actually your law firm in your pocket now, within reason. Now, obviously we’re going to even higher levels. But would you mind sharing, you know, in a little bit more detail? Because these are the sort of details that I know Cleo and yourself really do take. Really do take pride in how you align customers needs with product development, because I see so many companies get it wrong. So can you share some examples of this and what you’re most proud of in terms of your work? 

Hemant Kashyap 15:35 

Yeah, with product development, the number one core tenet is you’ve got, you have to really listen to your customers and know your customers really well. And it’s a it’s one of the pillars of the culture that I also try to drive within the R D or within the product org at Clio. And having that deep customer empathy, deep, deep customer empathy, knowing their problems and needs and issues better than they know it themselves is is really important. And there’s also a saying in product development, which has fall in love with the problem, not the solution. And so I encourage our product managers and designers to really go deep and really understand the problem space, whatever it might be that they’re focusing on with our customers. We have product advisory groups in specific areas of the product. We also, for example, Clio accounting. We work very closely with the CCCs, which are the Clio certified consultants, because we know they work very closely with our customers on the accounting side of things. And once we start to form those hypotheses around, what are the really important problems that we need to be focusing on that are going to deliver the greatest amount of value, then we start to focus think about, okay, how do we solve that? And oftentimes the solution may not be what the customer thinks it needs to be. So oftentimes, you know, the customer might tell us, hey, I need this feature. I need this functionality. And a lot of times it’s true, it’s correct. But then when we really try to dig in also, what are you really trying to accomplish here? The solution ends up could end up being something different also. And so a lot of hypothesis driven problem validation, a lot of hypothesis driven solution validation, a lot of use of data and making data driven decisions. Deep research, of course, and that that informs where we, you know, invest, and the kinds of features and products that we develop. You know, Cleo accounting is a great example of that. Cleo file is a great example of that. It was clearly listening to our customers and really having a deep understanding of where we can help. 

Rob Hanna 17:50 

Yeah, and again, you touched on it there. But you know, data absolutely is, is the new and probably the foreseeable gold, yeah, absolutely. I think then it can take emotion out of decisions. Because sometimes, as a as a leader, you know, particularly in a startup business as well, you can take things quite emotionally, and actually, when you strip things back and look look at the data, you can make far more strategic decisions. And you know, like you say, when you really agitate that pain point and you really focus on that solution, then not only does the chance to actually kind of really solve it, but also your market expands, and then your ability to kind of grow referrals and continue to grow and grow and grow and grow and grow and clear. It’s done a phenomenal job of, as you say, really listening, understanding, showing that empathy, and then really going all in on, actually trying to find a solution. And so love that. Love your sort of way of thinking.  

Hemant Kashyap 18:34 

And one thing to add is prioritization is really hard in our world, you know, because there are so many problems we can be helping out with. And, you know, it’s a good we are resource constrained, right? We don’t have unlimited resources. And so we have to constantly make those trade offs and strike the right balance in terms of improving our existing products and adding more functionality into our existing products versus building new products, because our customers are saying they have, they need a lot of help in that other area where there’s no help available. 

Rob Hanna 19:10 

So how, you know, go a bit deeper on that then. Because, again, a lot of people will be thinking, okay, but you know, you’re that is the role you’re trying to sort of prioritize these things. Is it a case of, you have a higher number of people say, saying we want this, or is it a case that you see more market cap in actually, this particular problem being solved? So yeah, how do you make those decisions in terms of right new features really going in on now, integrations, we’re really going to focus on. Tell us a little bit more of your kind of leadership approach. 

Hemant Kashyap 19:38 

Yeah, it’s we look at a lot of signals. We do a lot of research. We, you know, take a lot of input from a lot of different sources. We talk to customers a lot, day in and day out, but our sales team are also on the front lines, talking into potential prospects. Our customer support and success teams are. On the front lines every day, talking to our existing customers and hearing feedback that all of that gets passed on back to product, and it kind of all goes into the hopper, if you will. But also doing, like you said, a lot of market assessments, seeing what are the what the competitive landscape looks like, what are some emerging technologies that are coming that we can use and help our customers with. So we look at all of those things, and there’s a lot of data. We look at our NPS scores, our CSAT scores, we have something called the umuk scores by area we’re able to see, and we try to keep above a certain threshold and and that’s that kind of drives the decisions, you know. So for this year, some of the areas that we felt we needed to really help our customers with was on accounting and file. You know, we had customers, in some cases, that were wanting to leave Clio because we didn’t have an accounting solution, or potential customers, prospects that we were not able to sign up for clear because we didn’t have clear accounting, so that was a big gap for us. But then even our existing products, like pi personal injury, for example, which we launched late last year, we’re continuously adding new features there based on the feedback that we’re getting from our personal injury customers. And you know, we know that there’s we, we have more to build there to make it to continuously strengthen the PI offering. 

Rob Hanna 21:32 

Yeah, well, look the only constant in businesses and change, and you have to adapt and thrive, or else you go the other way. And I love the fact that, you know, Cleo has that first for feedback, partnership, collaboration, listening, and then taking action, because that’s the way you have to do business. And I say it time and time again, we’re no longer in this B to B, B to C word. We’re in this eight to eight. It’s human to human connection. The more you can connect and really delight your clients, the more you’re going to be successful. So I really like your your approach there. Hey, month. Okay, let’s talk a little bit more about that next five years, because you’ve mentioned it. You know, you might be in a meeting one minute where you’re really thinking about the next five years. Then it’s a personnel matter, then it’s something else. So you know, what is your vision for? As much as you can tell us, I appreciate some stuff might be a little bit confidential, but what is your vision for clio’s product strategy in the next five years?  

Hemant Kashyap 22:20 

Um, our mission, as we talked about, is transforming the legal experience for all, and that can you know that translates into making an impact in so many different areas. It all starts with our core customers, of course, which are law firms. And our goal is to go broader and deeper across the workflows and at law firms and legal practices. We believe that we can really make a difference and make an impact in pretty much every area of the way legal practices operate. And so we will continue to go deeper on manage and legal practice management solutions, we will continue to go deeper and broader on grow in terms of CRM and marketing and intake functionality and documents is one where I personally feel we’ve barely scratched the surface, and there’s a lot more that we can do in The world of documents, whether it’s basic document management functionality, document automation. Or now, you know, with ai, ai assisted document generation is going to be a big space in the world of and then when we take a take a step back and look at things, there’s the practice of law and the business of law for our customers. And so there’s a lot we can also do to help our customers with the business of law. So not only helping them get better and more efficient outcomes for their clients, but also helping them be better business operators. And so in the world of financial services, there’s payments, but, you know, there might be, there’s an opportunity there to help them beyond just payments, and helping them really have a good understanding of their full financial health, and helping them get financially stronger as as businesses. And then AI is, is a big one. You know, it’s going to really transform things, and again, in both the business of law and the practice of law, AI is going to be able to help in many different ways. And so really going deeper and broader, across all the workflows and legal practices, the other big thing here is international and continuing to also make sure that we’re serving all our customers and all the global markets. 

Rob Hanna 24:48 

Yeah, and that excites us based over here in the UK, and that’s why we enjoy working with Clio, because I think there’s so much that can be done over here as well. And you know, I love that you touched on AI, and it brought me back to peers. Lyn, who was a former Dragon’s Den Shark Tank equivalent, investor and lawyer, who’s been on our show, and he was done in a recent event, and he said, AI, isn’t a once in a revolution opportunity. He says, This is a once in a species opportunity. And, you know, that’s how, you know, enormous this really could be in terms of the impact for good. I want to talk about trends, because, you know, Clio has been on a phenomenal journey. We’ve been blessed to have Jack come on and tell his story of when they started up, just him and his business partner. And, you know, they’ve gone to be a unicorn business, then the first Centaur. And then this year has been a huge year, raising, you know, Series F 900 million, you know, the largest cloud based legal technology company in the world, NASDAQ, you name it, Goldman, Sachs, all the big names involved. You know, it’s a phenomenal achievement, but still, Clio remains humble, stays focused, mission driven, which I think is fantastic, and always looking at where the trends are. So my question to you is, what are some of the current major trends in legal technology that you’re most excited about, and what are some of the biggest challenges but opportunities that could come with those potential trends? 

Hemant Kashyap 26:03 

Sure. Well, number one is AI, you know, like you said, it’s, it’s once in a species, kind of transfer disruption that’s going to happen. The interesting thing about AI, that makes it a bit different is, you know, when mobile happened or cloud happened, you could kind of see what the end state could be. You kind of understood, yeah, we’re going to move software from on prem to cloud. Mobile is you’re going to be able to do your workflows on the go. And it was more a question of mobile computing getting stronger to be able to handle complex apps, and then your connections getting stronger over cellular to be able to have those fast connections. And then the applications would come with AI, the tech underlying technology itself is changing so much that your world view, or whatever beliefs that you might form very quickly get out of date six months down the road, and you’re going to have to constantly adjust. And so also, when you’re trying to build features, you’re building features on a tech stack that itself is changing from under you, and the possibilities and what’s possible changes, but we’re excited about it. One of the challenges around AI is one, like I said, the technology changing, but also the day, you need to be a lot more rigorous and structured with how you’re handling data, because at the end of the day, it’s your data models and how all of that is coming together, luckily for not luckily intentionally for us. We are the system of record for our customers, and we have a lot of that data, and so, you know, that’s why I am really excited about all the different things that we can build for our customers. The other thing that I’m excited about is our app ecosystem and our ecosystem partners. We are very proud of having built the largest app ecosystem in the legal tech space, and we have hundreds and hundreds of partners that are developing applications against clio’s APIs and clio’s platform. And I’m always amazed to see the kind of innovation that’s happening out there and all these different problem spaces that our partners are tackling. So I continue to see that, and especially with AI, it’ll be interesting to see what kind of partnerships that we can form there. The third trend is continuous automation of workflows, and it doesn’t have to necessarily be AI based, just heuristics based learning, machine learning, machine learning to drive automation and continuously drive efficiency to our customers, is something that we’re really excited about. I think the narrowing of the technology gaps in terms of the courts and how our customers interact with the courts is going to be a really interesting one. When we talk to partners in the court systems in certain jurisdictions across the country, here in the US, there is a strong appetite to invest in technology, and they recognize that things can be a lot more efficient, which ultimately reduces costs for the end clients. And so that’s another area that I’m really excited about.  

Rob Hanna 29:38 

Yeah, and I get excited because I am obviously in the legal tech space, and speak to lots of people. And, you know, legal made, for example, I did a LinkedIn live with them recently. They’re all about automation, and they collaborate with Cleo. You know, we’ve known Dawna mahini at gavel. She’s been on the show, and again, collaborate with Cleo and Altie, who picked up the prize when it comes to pricing. Scott Lee, and that’s. What I was always taught as well, collaboration is not competition. Collaboration is domination. I think Clio is very skilled at collaborating and bringing in partners and really ensuring a win win for everyone in that partner ecosystem. And you know, it’s absolutely true to see, when you go out there and see, like you said, how many people, how many plugins, how much you’re actually in the community and offering value and ensuring people can also help contribute to this, transforming the legal experience for all. And I can go on and on trellis as well, and clear bereath and so many others. They’re all amazing, amazing products out there, and payment, it’s amazing what you can get into a half an hour of chatting. I feel like I’ve learned a hell of a lot from you. I have two quick final questions, if I may. The first question is, what’s the number one skill that you have acquired that you would never want to lose? What is the number one skill that you have acquired over the years you would never want to lose? 

Hemant Kashyap 30:53 

Huh? That’s a good question. I’ve never been asked that. I’d say really zeroing in on the why, like really drilling down and making sure you’re getting to the truth and the why is really important. Especially in my line of work, there’s so much noise, and the signal to noise ratio is really low. And everyone has great ideas, and their I you know, ideas are cheap, and they all are getting thrown my way and the way of product, and really parsing through all of that and getting to the why, and making sure you’re really understanding what the underlying problems are, and making sure you’re building the right things for the right solution, for the right problem, is really important so, and you know, once you’ve done that, then it’s also really important to communicate that well and make sure there’s alignment around it, but getting to the why and being able to explain the why is really, really important in MySpace. 

Rob Hanna 31:59 

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And I say that for people, entrepreneurs as well. And you know, maybe this is a little bit far for some people. I remember one of my mentors said to me, Rob, if you’re going to set up businesses, your Why should make you cry. And it really is as an emotional why to what I do and my mission and what I’m trying to do, and obviously supporting clear of what you do. But I think that’s really well said, that really getting into that why, and being passionate and fixated on it, you’re only going to be successful, okay? Hemant, so finally, what would be your piece of advice for aspiring product leaders looking to make an impact in a tech industry, not necessarily legal because you’ve worked across multiple industries, what would be your your kind of one or two pieces of advice? 

Hemant Kashyap 32:38 

I would say the first is have a big and well articulated vision. And I tell that to all my product managers and designers too, you must have a big vision, but it has to also be well articulated. And then behind that needs to be a well defined strategy that you have high conviction around and so making sure you’re using good forming good hypotheses, making sure you’re validating them, and really distilling down exactly what the strategy is, is very, very important to be able to execute on that vision, and just being honest through the process, you know, is really important, because there’s so much bias that can come into this, and you end up only looking for signals that confirm those biases. And so really making sure that you’re using data in the right way, or you’re doing your research in the right way is really important, and that’ll help prevent very expensive mistakes down the road, because once you start building, that’s when things get expensive. So you want to really de risk things as much as possible before you start building. 

Rob Hanna 33:55 

Such great advice. And you know when emotions go up, sometimes intelligence can go down. So like you say, stripping things back, looking at data, and having real strategy and being focused on that, I think is fantastic advice. He thoroughly enjoyed today. And I’m sure our listeners are going to want to know more about your career, and indeed, Clio, so where can they go to find out more? Feel free to shout out any social media handles, any web links. We’ll also make sure we share them with this special episode for you too. 

Hemant Kashyap 34:22 

Sure, I think the easiest place is LinkedIn. I’m on LinkedIn. They can follow me. Feel free to send me a message that’s from the easiest way. 

Rob Hanna 34:31 

There we go, folks, simple, the largest professional networking site on the planet, the CPO of Clio, is there, so you can go and find him over there. It’s been an absolute pleasure having on the show today, we’d like to wish you and all fellow cleons Lots of continued success with your mission to transform the legal experience for all but for now, from all of us over and out.