On today’s Legally Speaking Podcast, I’m delighted to be joined by Brett Colvin. Brett is the CEO and Co-Founder of Goodlawyer, branded Canada’s most trusted in-house counsel network, Goodlawyer provides cost-effective in-house legal solutions. Goodlawyer has helped over 5,000 businesses and they are just at the start of their venture.

So why should you be listening in? 

You can hear Rob and Brett discussing:

– Flexible Legal Careers with Goodlawyer

– Embracing New Legal Technology

– Leadership & Company Culture

– Strategic Customer Focus

– Community and Brand Building

Connect with Brett Colvin here – https://ca.linkedin.com/in/brettrcolvin

Transcript

Brett Colvin  0:00  

The willingness to iterate and continue evolving, I think, has been a really critical part of our journey. You really need to look hard in the mirror, try to understand where the true value is that you’re delivering for clients, and double down on that and try to find ways to price for that value that isn’t just relying on Junior associates hitting 2000 billable hours and you trying to mitigate your write downs as much as possible. Our whole business is predicated on the future needing good lawyers. So if we’re in a world where we don’t need good lawyers anymore, we’re living in a pretty crazy future state.

Robert Hanna  0:38  

On today’s legally speaking podcast, I’m delighted to be joined by Brett Colvin. Brett is the CEO and co founder of good lawyer, branded Canada’s most trusted in house counsel network. Good lawyer provides cost effective in house legal solutions. Good lawyer has helped over 5000 businesses, and they’re just at the start of their venture. So a very big, warm welcome to the show.

Brett Colvin  0:59  

Brett Rob, thanks for having me, my friend. I’ve been following this one for a long time, so it’s a pleasure to be here.

Robert Hanna  1:05  

Oh, it’s an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. And obviously you and I have collaborated on a few things over the years, but I’m really looking forward to today’s discussion. And before we get into that, I do have a customary icebreak question for you, which is, what is your favourite beverage and what is your preferred choice of footwear on a typical work day?

Brett Colvin  1:24  

Oh, beverage. Are we talking the alcoholic or the non?

Robert Hanna  1:32  

You could take any direction you like. I

Brett Colvin  1:36  

have grown pretty fond of old fashions in my ever since catching Mad Men a few years ago. So I would say if I had to pick a beverage, I’d pick an old fashioned and in terms of footwear, I mean, I’m rocking those on clouds or those Adidas running running shoes pretty frequently these days. Occasionally I’ll bust out the boots, but yeah, most of my day, I can get by with the comfy footwear. I like that.

Robert Hanna  2:02  

I like that. And then I think that’s got running in it this year. I’ve got the bug, so I’m here for it.

Brett Colvin  2:08  

But look today on clouds and old fashions, my friend, there we go.

Robert Hanna  2:12  

Very, very happy with that and with that, we need to move swiftly on to talk all about you in a professional context. So would you mind telling us a bit about your background and career journey to start

Brett Colvin  2:22  

with, sure. I mean, my story in law began sort of tail end of undergrad. I was wrapping up business school. Wasn’t exactly sure if I wanted to start a business or where I wanted to take you know, my career next, and my dad had always really been pushing law school, and he was a stockbroker, and he was always pushing a slightly more conservative, safe path for me. And I wasn’t totally sold on it, but unfortunately, when I was 22 he passed away pretty suddenly, and that really kind of put a halt on my big sort of world domination plans at the at the time, and going to law school was one of the things I’ve been considering, and it certainly kept mama happy at that time. So I kind of stumbled my way into law school without a whole bunch of planning, and, you know, from there, just got sucked into the rigmarole, that is, you know, on campus interviews. That’s what we call them, at least in North America. And you know, next thing I know, finishing law school, ending up at one of the big national firms, and spent about four and a half years there before, sort of getting to be honest, I was getting a little fed up, just because I couldn’t really couldn’t really implement any ideas have any sort of real impact beyond, you know, Bill in the hours, and it was about, yeah, four and a half years in, I was a fourth year associate, when one of the senior guys in my group came in one day, slammed the door and said, Brett, keep coming up with your ideas. Just keep it to yourself, and that was kind of the final straw for me. So I spent the next six months. Didn’t leave immediately, but spent the next six months finding my co founders, raising a little bit of dough, and in early 2019 made the leap, stepped away from the firm and started good lawyer the next day.

Robert Hanna  4:19  

I love that. And there’s always a moment isn’t there? And thank you for sharing that moment with us where that partner came in and said that for you. Because, you know, I say this a lot in my talks, you know, you’re not a tree move if you’re not happy with that environment. You know, it’s very easy to really sort of double down on being unhappy. But you actually kind of said, You know what? Okay, fine, I’ve got more fire in my belly. I’ve got entrepreneurial flair. That’s it. I’m going to do it. So let’s move to that. Then. What sort of inspired you to co found good lawyer? I appreciate, obviously you’re wanting to do more, but is there any real sense of inspiration that inspired you to go all in on good lawyer?

Brett Colvin  4:53  

I mean, I think for me, it’s always come back to this lingering feeling in the belly as. You put it that there was something broken, that there was something not quite right about the way that the firm was set up. And, you know, for me, I think it was sort of the duality of both a lot of businesses not getting the services they needed. Or, you know, certainly in the early days of good lawyer, a lot of these smaller businesses not being able to access any legal services at all, coupled with the fact that when I looked around, I saw a lot of unhappiness, discontentment amongst the lawyers. And so for me, I was always kind of confused as, how can this feel sort of broken for both sides of the equation. And really, that’s what you know, was the seed of good lawyer was, how can we build a better bridge between clients and lawyers in a way that you know, gives lawyers more flexibility, more freedom, more ownership over their careers, allowing them to build more intentionally and at the same time, how can we unlock these incredibly talented lawyers to service businesses in a slightly different way than they had been historically?

Robert Hanna  6:07  

I love that, because you come at this from a place of doing good for legal. And I just know the passion and from knowing good lawyer, like the positive energy and the creativity and things that you put together, and again, don’t be around drainers of your energy, be around radiators of your energy. And I think what you’re building with good lawyer and the energy and the energy and everything you’re putting it’s just really good for the broader industry. Okay, it’s funny

Brett Colvin  6:28  

you say that because I mean just one little more anecdote is I bought, I came up with the name and bought the domains in first year law school, before the firm, before I had any idea what good lawyer would be. And it all came back to this old coffee guy I had from business school. I stayed up at U of A for for law school. And when I went back to see him, when I got back for law school, you know, he was very jovial, this old Lebanese guy named Mo. And we got to talking, he remembered me, and we were just having this lovely conversation. And then he asked me, you know, what am I doing? Back and I said, I’m in law school now. And as soon as I said I was in law school, he just looked at me and he pointed, and he said, be a good lawyer. Be a good lawyer. And it just like sunk in. And I do think he was trying to touch on what you were just alluding to, which is, you know, he wasn’t talking about being a competent lawyer. I don’t think all of that is important. I really think it was about, you know, trying to be a good person and try to do good in this world. So that really was, you know, thanks mo for the for the foundation of what would become this company.

Robert Hanna  7:36  

Absolutely, and I love that story. And shout out to Mo. And look you and I were talking off air before we went live. Actually, entrepreneur is super easy, right? Entrepreneurship no problems. Never put out fires. It’s typical walk in the park, all that good stuff. Of course, I joke, but let’s get into the building of good lawyer, because what you’ve built today is incredible. But could you talk us through the process of building good lawyer and any sort of entrepreneurial lessons you’ve had from those early days to where it sits today.

Brett Colvin  8:03  

Oh yeah. I mean, lessons of so many I’d say, first and foremost, something that I’ve learned and something that has evolved dramatically over the course of good lawyers history, and we’ve been building this thing for almost six years now, has been to equally understand who your customer is, who your you know ICP. We call it ideal customer persona, and you know, for good lawyer, that ICP has evolved dramatically over time from the early days where, you know, we were really set up to facilitate fixed fee legal services, almost like an online Airbnb for corporate law for small businesses and startups all the way to today, where you know, the vast majority of the business is predicated on subscription services for in house legal teams, ranging from sort of midsize all the way up to the biggest enterprises that You can think of. And I think every step of that journey really understanding who our ideal customer was, step one, and then the other piece of it is just this willingness to iterate over time, and, you know, follow the direction of your customers, and, you know, follow the polls. You can’t listen to every crazy idea for features, or that’s something like that. But really, the willingness to iterate and continue evolving, I think, has been a really critical part of our journey. And I think that’s pretty common for a lot of entrepreneurs.

Robert Hanna  9:36  

And what I love about that is you’re, you’re exceptionally client centred throughout, you know, and that is super important. And, you know, I’ve spoken to a lot of vice presidents and, you know, Chief Product officers and stuff and like, to your point about you can’t necessarily ask and go to every little feature they want, but the good businesses are asking the why behind it. Because actually, there might be a different why behind they want that feature that could be somewhere else in the process, or could be something else that. Actually they need. But through some good understanding and being client centred and asking the right questions and delving down, maybe you can get further forward. So I love that. And again, let’s go deeper then, because it is tough entrepreneurship, you know, getting anything off the ground. You know, my late grandfather was very successful lawyer in his own right. Used to say, Rob, anyone can be successful. It’s far harder to stay successful. Like you said, you’ve been building this for six years. What have been some of the challenges and obstacles you faced while building good lawyer, and how have you been able to overcome them and keep coming back to what it is now?

Brett Colvin  10:30  

Yeah, I mean, I think at the end of the day, the most important thing is the people that you’re building with. You know, I said that as a company, we’re extremely, you know, customer oriented, and, you know, really trying to drive value and continue iterating, not getting sort of stuck where we are for the sake of it. But when I really think about like, what a business is, a business is just a wrapping around a group of people with a shared mission or direction. And so you know, whether it was the early days when my original co founder left the business to go back to private practice, he’s now, you know, very successful lawyer at a big firm, partner going through the traditional route. And you know, we’re still on very good terms, but that was a really painful moment in the early days of the business. And you know, if I think back to that moment, the thing that kept me going and kept me so inspired was the fact that my other two co founders didn’t skip a beat. And you know, we were all sad to see him go, but at the same time, none of us felt like the journey was even close to over. And you know, it would it’s impossible to predict as an entrepreneur, especially if you’re trying to build this highly scalable growth machine where the future is exactly going to take. You couldn’t have predicted this AI revolution five, six years ago, but I do think that being surrounded by folks that share your ambition, share the general theme of the mission. And you know, even ours has evolved over time. In the early days, it was making legal services more accessible. Today, it’s to build the most desirable way to practice law, and has become just sort of obsessed around the talent in our network. I really do think that fundamentally, having those people around you is what keeps you going, and is fundamentally what building a business is all about. It’s bringing these good people together that share the mission, and you can build something greater as a collective than you ever could individually. And yeah, I’d say that’s the secret sauce, my friend.

Robert Hanna  12:41  

I love that. And again, I talk about this very openly, that we is greater than me. If you surround yourself with good people, you come together, you can achieve hugely successful things just out of interest. When your co founder left, did you say to him, in jest, be a good lawyer.

Unknown Speaker  12:54  

How much do you think you’re keeping?

Robert Hanna 12:59  

Yeah, the more honestly, the honest point? Yeah, absolutely. And you’re right, though. But in business, the only constant is change, right? You do need to pivot. You do need to move. You do need to understand that things are going to happen. Yes, you can have the overarching mission, or a mission to go to, but inevitably, there is going to be change along the way. And I think if you have those good source of people around you, also who have talents, you have skip, you know, all the mindsets, all of that good stuff, you can come through it. So, you know, you frequently, and that leads quite nicely on, actually, because you frequently share on social media about the growth, you know, teams and talent at good lawyer, how do you go about attracting and keeping individuals who thrive in a culture that you’re building today?

Brett Colvin  13:35  

You got to get them aligned, both with the mission, but also from a compensation standpoint, you know, I’m a big believer in the power of, you know, equity and sharing the pie with folks that are going to be really key to the journey long term, which, you know, comes with it. It’s risks for both the company and the folks that are jumping on, hopefully, the rocket ship. So that’s a key piece, but, but I think fundamentally, it’s been about, you know, who are we bringing on board? Why are they choosing to do this throughout the journey, just about every key player I’ve added to the team could be making more cash elsewhere, and so they are taking this, you know, huge risk and material, sort of personal sacrifice, and so they really have to be on board with what we’re trying to do. They have to be, you know, really forward thinking. And they have to believe that we can build something important, something that matters, and something that you know is going to change the lives of you know, 1000s of lawyers one day and ourselves, I would say that if I had one other sneaky sort of trick that we’ve used at good lawyer, it’s been to bring on board a. Um, a fractional psychologist that, for the last two years, has done, it’s all opt in from the team, but has done one on one sessions with just about everybody on the team, and then in a quite funny state of affairs, does group therapy effectively? We call it group coaching, but it’s effectively group therapy with the executive team every two to three weeks, and that has been this insane unlock. I’m not sure if you’ve seen billions, but it’s kind of like my Tuesday Wendy Rhodes and doing that those sessions with with the executive team has been extremely powerful, just in terms of unblocking interpersonal issues that can often quietly get in the way of progress, and I think also just allowed all of us as sort of people to grow and get more comfortable with being vulnerable and really striving for you know what? What our guy says is assertive communication, which is sort of the Goldilocks in terms of not being too passive or aggressive. Really, it’s all about, can you be an assertive communicator? And I think that’s what Josh touched on a lot in his keynote the summit, yeah.

Robert Hanna 16:10  

And what I’m gleaming there is you genuinely care about your people, so you invest in your people, you know. And that’s you know, rather than just values on a wall, you know, you’re putting things in place, because people are humans. They do have emotions. They do have a life. You know, whilst Yes, of course, we want to come to work and give everything to good lawyer, maybe one day, they just can’t do that, because life has happened. Let’s talk through that. Let’s be there. Let’s support you. Let’s see what we can do so we can get the best out of you through this. I really admire that, and I love the word that you use their belief. I remember, just before starting one of my businesses, and just before even starting the podcast, I wrote BTA, which is believed to achieve, like whatever happens, whatever gets chucked at me, whatever goes wrong, whichever fire I’m putting out trying to you’ve still got to believe to achieve, because once you get over the other side of it, it can be incredible. So I absolutely love that. And yeah, I guess this leads nicely to some more leadership lessons from from your side, because what you’re building is fantastic. But what’s been the biggest leadership challenge in the legal tech industry right now? You think, for people that are trying to move the needle,

Brett Colvin  17:08  

I think it’s trying to take stock of what’s working and not getting overly excited or drawn into all the headlines. Obviously, legal tech wasn’t even really a defined class of venture assets, until hilariously recently. You know, it was not in the dictionary, despite the fact that it is such an influential like legal is so influential on our world generally, but it’s definitely getting traction now, as I’m sure you’re extremely aware, the VC rounds in the legal tech space, you know, when it comes to the new sort of legal AI, companies that are coming out are truly jaw dropping. And there is definitely, you know, I think a part of me, and, you know, I would say a lot of entrepreneurs in similar shoes to me that is just like, can’t help but notice it. And so I think, you know, not getting too distracted by the buzzwords and the huge funding rounds and really trying to stay core to our mission, not trying to, like, blind them out, but really trying to understand, you know, where are our differentiators, where are our strengths? Are there partners out in the ecosystem that we should be talking with to supplement the strengths that we have? That to me, I would say is, is the core challenge. I think, you know, the team that we have is, is truly excellent and unbelievably committed. We are long past our good lawyer communist wages days. We’re sitting in we’re sitting in a very good place now, but I think just trying to stay focused and intentional with what we’re doing and not getting pulled into areas that are, you know, exciting because we read a tabloid or we read it a funding announcement. That’s that’s a real key part of what I’m trying to focus on going into next year, because I think we are on, on the right track. And, you know, I think where we’ve come to to build a brand in a very traditional market is not easy to do. And, yeah, I just think we got to keep, keep doing what we’re doing, and hopefully we get a little smarter

Robert Hanna 19:23  

next year. Yeah, and it’s incredible brand that you have built, and I love that you talk about focus, because I went to an event maybe a couple of years ago, and one of the speakers, it just landed with me. I forget them now. They said, with the headlines everywhere. He said, The One smartest thing you can all do if you’re running a business is be forensically focused. And that just really landed with me in terms of, to your point, you know, you just need to be so fixed on, this is the mission. This is what we’re doing. Yes, we might need to ideate, yes. We might need to pivot. Yes. We might need to move. Yes, we might shape things. But that focus, like you need to block out the other noise and keep delivering through that forensic focus. And something I’ve been doubling down on intentionally so on the things that I’ve. Been involved, and it’s really helped me, because I think, like you say, you could get so lost in the amount of headlines, even as we record this podcast, there’s probably been something that’s about to happen, you know, and so it is impossible to keep up. So you kind of need to run your own race at your own pace, so to speak. So let’s double down on that question then. So I think it is impressive what you are doing at good lawyer. How do you balance scaling a business and sort of preserving identity and culture, which makes your company so unique and gives you that differentiator over other, perhaps service providers

Brett Colvin  20:27  

out there. I mean, I think ultimately it comes down to, I’ve always had sort of a delegation lean, and I don’t mean to sort of, you know, let the business run wild while I’m out hanging on the beach like that doesn’t happen that I can’t remember the last vacation I took, but I think it really does come back to, you know, trying to empower the folks on my team, especially the leaders on my team, and, you know, ultimately, trying to tie it back and be as crystal clear as I can, which sometimes can be challenging to what you were, you were, you know, just discussing there, which is the focus, and to me, again, that starts with who the customer is. And so, you know, I think it was six, nine months ago where, you know, we’ve been serving in house legal teams for a really long time, but we were also serving CFOs, you know, founders. And we were still spread very, very thin. And a lot of that was relics from, you know, where good lawyer came from. But it was, you know, six, nine months ago where we just, I stated very clearly, you know, a good example would be like events. We’re not going to events unless there’s a room full of in house counsel. And that’s who we’re focused on today. And so trying to provide sort of the casing of where ideas can live, which is within the sort of ICP bucket, I think has been probably one of the most impactful things that I’ve done, is just sort of drawing the lines and letting folks on the team play inside Those come up with innovations and ideas on how to drive further value for, you know, ICP, for these in house counsel in that bucket, GCS in particular. But really, I think it is about empowering your team while being as clear as you possibly can be on who you’re serving. And then ultimately, you know, I’m just constantly trying to connect the dots. Remove sort of blockers. Make sure that, you know, the left hand is talking to the right constantly in the business. And, yeah, I think just again, pulling everything back to, who are we serving? Why are we serving them? And the mission is a good example. You know, building the most desirable way to practice law really resonates with my team, and I think provides some clarity. And then the other thing that comes up in every all hands we have as a team, you know, we always have a slide or two, which is, win the talent, win the game. And from that perspective, we’re talking about lawyers that, you know, decide to start building their careers intentionally with us, and when you see the calibre of lawyers coming in the door that want to practice in a slightly different way, have a little bit more of that flexibility, freedom, control over their career, it’s not hard to sell them because they’re unbelievable. And so just trying to reiterate that to the team constantly, that if we win the talent, if we serve the lawyers that work with us better than anybody else, the revenue, the growth will come, because these lawyers are undeniable. And when you put one of these lawyers into one of these big enterprises, to do, you know, a leave coverage, to managing an AI portfolio that nobody in that enterprise had, you know, experience with before it’s it’s clear as day, and when you get the, you know, perfect good lawyer inside of a business, account management, retention becomes really easy because they’re that good, they’re that good of a fit.

Robert Hanna 23:55  

Again, I just love listening to how you approach things. And again, I love your way of sort of empowering people. Because if you do empower people, and you do give them that genuine empowerment, innovation thrives, you know, they’ll come up with creative ideas solutions, they’ll really want to work hard for you. And yeah, like you say, really getting close to understanding what your your avatar is. And you know, sometimes it’s better be clear than it isn’t overly clever. I think people try to be overly complex. And again, if you go out there and send all these various signals, you kind of lose your direction. So I love how you’re doubling down on that. And I guess let’s flip to the other side, then away from in house counsel, just for a minute, because you’ve worked in a law firm and probably have views on this. And let’s talk about law firm risks. Is what do you believe is the biggest risk for traditional law firms failing to keep up with the current times, particularly when I’m referencing sort of technology and innovation? Do innovation.

Brett Colvin  24:43  

Yeah, I mean, I think inertia is what will ultimately kill law firms that you know don’t make a conscious effort to adapt and try to do things differently. You know they’ve been, I know it. A little bit of the situation of like the boy called Wolf. And, you know, the boy in this case is like the society yelling at firms that the billable hour is going to die, that automation is going to take over. Because it truly has been getting shouted at firms since I entered the profession. You know, over 10 years ago. I do think this time is different. I really do think that the power of these new tools truly is going to put more pressure on the traditional, you know, billable hour business model, just the way that firms are structured, the the leverage model that I don’t think is going to survive in the same way that it exists today. And so when I’m you know, if I was consulting with firms which I am not, I would say you really need to look hard in the mirror, try to understand where the true value is that you’re delivering for clients, and double down on that and try to find ways to price for that value that isn’t just relying on Junior associates hitting 2000 billable hours, and you trying to, you know, mitigate your write downs as much as possible. Because I do feel like the firms that just, you know, and this will likely be a lot of them, just ride that inertia to the very end, will ride it off a cliff. Yeah, I do think that there will be fewer big firms in 10 years than there are today, the

Robert Hanna 26:44  

bubble will burst, is the way I look at it, particularly over here in the in the UK, with associate salaries soaring and, you know, the pressure on billable hours to your point, I think that model probably needs looking at. In the age of tech and innovation that we’re in currently, I want to talk a little bit more about the talk at some point about the future of law summit, but before then, I want to talk about strategy for growth, because you’ve referred to that strategy for growth at good lawyer. So what has been I guess, what would you do differently if you could go back in time when you reference strategy for growth?

Brett Colvin  27:16  

I would have found Chad sooner. Yeah, yeah, our Chief Commercial Officer, and I would have isolated that ideal customer persona a lot earlier. I think, one of the sort of magic moments for me when we, you know, after five plus years, sort of made our way all the way up to the top of the chain and started serving, you know, these small to very large in house legal teams, was this moment where I realised our, you know, because at the end of the day, we have a marketplace business model. I’ve got, you know, close to 500 lawyers on the supply side of the business, and then you know, hundreds of clients on the other side, or our customers on the other side of the business. And ultimately, you know, we’re building tools that help us and help the lawyers manage all of these mandates simultaneously. But ultimately, we’re delivering value with to the customers by embedding these incredible lawyers inside their business. And the magic moment for me was when I realised that for the first time ever, our ICP on the supply side looked a hell of a lot like our ICP on the demand side. And, you know, I stealing a line that Chad likes to use, you know, when we’re trying to sell to the GC of this big enterprise. You know, one of the things we often say, because it’s so true, is like, what if you could hire you, hire you today, or hire you 510, years ago. But what if you could hire a version of you? Because obviously, you know, if we’re talking to the GC of the big enterprise, they’ve been incredibly successful. They’re a damn good lawyer, no doubts about it. And really it is like, can we embed a lawyer just like you from whatever stage of your journey you’re looking to add to your team right now? And you know when, when you have two sides of a marketplace that you’re trying to service, you know it is like the most complex sort of business model, because you’re never sort of focused on one persona. You inherently have to be focused on multiple personas, which then, like strains your resources and pulls you in different directions. But now that we’ve moved up market and our core customer are these in house legal teams, it really is like it’s been so simplifying for the business, because when we throw the future of law Summit, we’re inviting our customers, and we’re inviting our good lawyers when we host a dinner. You know, everybody has, you know, been at the same law schools, worked in similar environments. Everything is so relatable, and it, you know, it’s also why there’s so many. You know, former in House lawyers on like, good lawyer HQ team, because we all get it. We’re all living in that sort of same world. And frankly, that’s an area where, you know, I have to lean even more heavily than ever on folks like Chad, like Pauline, like Josh on my team, who have been in the lawyer shoes longer than I was, because I really resonate with those folks that have that like, you know, little crazy founder energy, and that was really important in our early days, when we were selling to founders. But that energy is a lot different than, you know, the 45 year old in house lawyer who’s trying to figure out how to run her team and manage soccer practices and do it all. And so I’d say that for me, has been like, I said, kind of like this magic moment in the last six months or so where it was like, Oh my God, this all just got so aligned. We’re able to double down in a way that benefits both sides of our marketplace equation, and has been a huge boon for the business coming back again to just like, focus, what are we doing and who are we serving?

Robert Hanna 31:07  

Yeah, and I love the lessons you shared there. And I would just give a shout out to chataboo folks can actually go and listen to his episode. He featured on the show a while back now, but still, so many lessons in there, and he’s just a great guy and doing good things, obviously for you, over a good lawyer as well. And yeah, to your point again, inch wide, mile deep. Really understand that marketplace and your core avatar that you’re trying to service. I love that. And, yeah, you’ve just been really good at executing it has to be said, you know. And I’m excited to see how it continues to go from from strength to strength. I want to talk about another interview that you had now around sort of again, looking at new career paths, and you know, journeys ahead, because in your Avenue magazine Calgary, you share the biggest impact we are having was on changing the lives of lawyers that we were working with by giving them this totally new sort of career path that didn’t really exist before. So tell us more about the new career path and why it’s becoming even more prevalent, particularly nowadays. Yeah.

Brett Colvin  32:02  

So, I mean, you know, since that article, the business has continued to evolve a little bit. But what I would have been referring to is, you know, a portion of what we do today, which is this ability to build a fractional portfolio as a lawyer, where I would say it fits sort of in between the full time in house roles. You know, all the lawyers that we’re bringing into the network these days have been in the in house chair. I think that’s really critical. And what really differentiates us from, you know, a big firm second where you get a highly capable lawyer, but someone who’s never sat in the in house seat before, which looks a lot different than the private practice seat that you know, I started my career in, and the ability, you know, for a lot of these lawyers, to build something that is very material from a compensation and sort of purpose perspective, like challenging work, good compensation, but isn’t all or nothing, as it would be, certainly in the case if you’re pursuing, you know, partnership in a big firm. And likewise, if you’re, you know, continuing to sort of march up the ladder within a large enterprise on the in house. Legal side of things, fractional has been this sort of alternative world for lawyers that want the benefits of a little bit variety, like similar to private practice, but you get to work on sort of the closest to the metal legal problems that really move the business forward, and you get to do it on your own terms. And I think, you know, one lawyer that just jumps to mind immediately is this woman who you know has been with us, I don’t know, close to a year now. I believe in the good lawyer network, Sherry hozaki, who you know, prior to good lawyer, was the GC, if I’m not mistaken, of indigo, Canada. And then was the General Counsel of Cadbury, UK. She was the chocolate queen. And you know, Sherry can do anything she wants. You know, she’s not that late in her career. She really could do anything she wants, and she chooses to work with good lawyer because that’s what she wants. She wants the flexibility to work with a couple sophisticated clients, but still have time to spend with her family and travel. And you know, she’s not looking for a full plate. She’s looking for, you know, a two thirds, three quarter plate that still gives her tremendous flexibility, while also, you know, generating her a pretty sizable income. So that, to me, I would say is, you know, one example of there should be more ways to skin the cat as a lawyer. It shouldn’t be all or nothing. We see the stats of how many lawyers just leave the profession entirely. Yeah, I know how challenging it is for lawyers just to stand up their own solo shop and attempt to do this rational thing on themselves. That’s really where you know good lawyer originated, and where we continue to go is, how do we facilitate these lawyers who want to build more intentional careers, which could be full time, it could be covering leaves, so then you get to get some new variety next year, or it could be building this portfolio fractional practice. I’m not too fussed if any good lawyers are listening. Want to build their careers more intentionally, like this is the place to do it.

Robert Hanna  35:30  

Today’s episode is brought to you by Clio. Are you frustrated with your current legal management software? You’re not alone, and 1000s of solicitors across the UK feel your pain. However, the hassle of moving all their existing client and case data holds most back from switching, prolonging the frustration. Cleo is here to help. Their dedicated migration team will be with you every step of the way while you transfer your information, and if you have any questions, you’ll get award winning support available. 24, five by live chat, phone and email. So help is always there when you need it most. It’s no wonder Clio is consistently receiving five star ratings for its ease of use and top notch service. If you’re ready to leave frustration behind, visit cleo.com forward slash UK to learn more and see why Clio continues to be the go to choice for solicitors across the UK. Now, back to the show. Look, I’ve sat on panels this year. I’ve been very fortunate to speak at the festival entrepreneurs, which is large entrepreneurial event over here in the UK. And one of the co founders and founder of an organisation called connected set a great line, which is, the future is fractional. I think it’s so true. You know, you look at that, because intentional and you know, time is our greatest commodity, is the one thing none of us can get back. We can all make more cash, you know, we can all go out there and make things happen, but protecting your time and actually delivering on those moments that maybe you’ve had to forego before, maybe it is going to see a relative, or, you know, a spouse, or whatever it might be, that time is precious, and so having this fractional opportunity now, it means you can play the game on your terms. I think that’s super exciting. And I think that that changes the game completely. I think it’s awesome. Why good lawyer exists, and you’re giving these options to people so they can have really enriched and they also don’t get suffer from burnout, and all the other things that we’ve seen, which have been real issues over the years as well. And and, yeah, I

Brett Colvin  37:21  

also just just to touch on that for a second. I also think that it really aligns with a lot of the technology advances that we’re seeing, like when I, when I think of what you know, AI, just to put that out there, is going to do to the legal industry. It’s very hard for me, and I know that, you know, a lot of the firms are already struggling with this, to see a world where you can keep just trying to find leverage with more folks at the bottom of the pyramid, when so many of these sort of rote tasks that, you know, we would have started our careers doing that was kind of how you learned the game. And like, you know, the number of documents I have reviewed is, like, tremendous, but it’s really hard for you to meet to imagine, you know, a world 510, years down the line where we haven’t automated those tasks away because clients, especially the big juicy enterprise, clients with tremendous leverage in those conversations, are demanding it. I don’t know how that business model continues to thrive in the way that it has for the past 100 years. Whereas fractional, if you can give a sherry hozaki The power of 100 digital associates that can run through all of this sort of rote, commoditized work. You still need a sherry hozaki. You still need somebody at that sort of executive level or rank down that can, you know, guide the workflow, ensure the product is what you need. And so for me, I view AI as this tremendous tailwind on this more flexible, fractional, whatever you want to call it, movement in law and other professional services. So for me, I think AI is a boon in a way that I’m sure there are a lot of folks you know, at some of the bigger, more traditional shops that you know, are scratching their heads saying, How can we implement this? And you know, you know, it’s a little bit of an innovator’s dilemma for folks at the firms.

Robert Hanna 39:32  

And, yeah, I mean, I reference this quite regularly, but it’s worth repeating, just to build on what you’re saying there. And we’ve had piers Linney, who was a former sharp tank investor, Dragon stand investor, over here in the UK, former lawyer, come on the show. And he talks a lot about a value pyramid, and it’s related to professional services. It could be a lawyer, it could be an accountant, could be an insurance doesn’t matter what you are. But basically, technology is coming in, and innovation the AI ship has left. The harder. It’s only exponentially going to get faster and. Better and better and better. We’re still in the dial up state. So you as a service provider need to ensure that you’re staying ahead of this pyramid. Like you say, the mundane is getting automated. So you still need that top quality expert, that human insight to maybe execute or oversee. But really, these organisations need to think about, how can we actually stay relevant and give that strategic or whatever, that human to human insight to clients to be valuable, otherwise AI will eat your lunch. And I think that’s why a lot of organisations need to get their head around. And another insight that I found fascinating was from Jeff Bezos, obviously, the founder of Amazon. And he talks a lot about in a world of change. You know, we’re in a constant world of change. What are some of the things Amazon should be thinking about that are never going to change. And he said it’ll be hard for him to wake up in a world where he would expect his customers to be happy to wait longer for the delivery of their products, he would find it harder to make customers want to pay higher prices, he would find and so you see, actually, when we’re in this world of constant change, what are some of the points like you’ve been saying, You’ve been doubling down on your ideal customer persona. What are some of the things that are probably likely never to change or very unlikely, and really double down on those? And I think that’s a really good lesson for people to think about when they’re really going to try to innovate and find solutions to public Yeah. I mean,

Brett Colvin  41:13  

you know. And I think that I you know, just kind of like paraphrasing that in the legal context, it’s hard for me to imagine, you know, a business partner within an organisation that’s working with the in house team. You know, getting too much clarity around what the legal requirements are around the the legal experts understanding the business as best they can. And, you know, having some of that human interaction so that everybody has the peace of mind we’re making the right decision. And you know, for me, that the other piece of the puzzle has always been, you know, I think this shout out to Clio, pulled this out of the Clio Trends Report years and years ago. You know, I’ve got Clio trends in my first investor deck a few times. And the amount of unmet legal need not just, you know, the Access to Justice crisis, not just small businesses that can’t afford a lawyer, so they’re just whipping up contracts on chat, GPT, but even inside large organisations, the amount of unmet legal need is unbelievable, like there’s so much more legal support and guidance and risk assessment and all of these things that can be provided inside even the largest organisations. And, you know, to the Bezos point, like no business partner is going to be upset that they’re getting more clarity and have a better sort of, you know, a greater belief that their legal partners understand the true business and what’s at stake for, you know, the bottom line, and also the people there. So, yeah, I think that there’s a lot of room to move up that Maslow’s hierarchy, or whatever you kind of called it before. So I’m not worried. I mean, our whole business is predicated on the future needing good lawyers. So, you know, if we’re in a world where we don’t need good lawyers anymore, like, okay, we’re living in a pretty we’re living in a pretty crazy future state.

Robert Hanna  43:12  

Yeah, well, that leads nicely. I did say we’ll talk about it to the future of law Summit, which, you know, I think is absolutely fantastic. You hosted it once again this year. It’s all about empowering legal professionals with tools, obviously, to navigate Thrive rapidly in the evolving industry, which we’ve been touching on obviously throughout this conversation. So how did the idea come about? To start with,

Brett Colvin  43:33  

one of our strengths, historically has definitely been on both the content and the event side of the equation, that’s certainly been those two pieces have been very critical to, you know, good lawyers, growth and especially that sort of brand recognition, you know, not just across Canada, but across North America. And you know, more and more folks from around the world that see what we’re doing, especially on LinkedIn, and so doing something bigger than a webinar and more thought leadership oriented than a giant yacht party, which we’ve also become fairly known for, that was sort of the the meeting of the minds on that was, how do we do something big that, you know, isn’t just fun, but also, you know, opens the door to some conversations that we don’t hear a lot in the legal industry. You know, I’ve been to my fair share of CPD or CLE over the years. The vast majority of it is highly technical. And, you know, there’s a place for that, but I think there’s a shortage of more sort of human esque content conversations that you know are a lot more vulnerable than most lawyers are, are open to on a on a typical basis. And you know, I think you know, for me, that was just a. Gap that we were able to fill, especially when you have personalities like Chad and Pauline who are able to run a show like that and, you know, just truly wear their hearts on their sleeves. So, yeah, I think it was sort of melding our strengths with some gaps that we saw in the market, and really trying to bring something that you know was highly accessible. You know, that’s why we make it free and virtual every year, but also very meaningful for folks that you know, participate and tune in.

Robert Hanna 45:31  

Yeah, and you deliver on, what I call to people, and I speak to a lot of people, is about CC, constant community. I think the community that you’re building with good lawyer through everything you’re putting on, it’s just authentic, like I had the pleasure, obviously, being involved in this year’s 2025, future of law Summit, and listened to many of the sessions before me. And these are very accomplished professionals that maybe 1020, years would not be sharing so vulnerably or openly about some of the challenges, some of the frustrations. And I think it’s so much richer for it that you put on these safe spaces where you allow people to authentically share. I think the level of innovation, the level of and I think I even said it in my talk, maybe we’re drowning in information, but craving wisdom, the amount of wisdom that shared through the future of law summit and what you’re putting on is tremendous. And so I’d encourage people to definitely check it out. And was there a favourite moment for you this year for the future of law summit, I think there was a awards. Tell us a little bit more for folks who may not been able to sort of get around it. And is there going to be one in next

Brett Colvin  46:29  

year as well? Yeah. I mean, we did have the future of law awards. For the first time, our inaugural future of law awards, and that was the in person component following the summit where we celebrated, you know, five outstanding in House lawyers. I mean, we had probably about 15 to 20 finalists there in person in Toronto, all exceptional. And, you know, we brought on an independent, also highly distinguished board of, you know, GCS from across the country that you know were the ultimate judges to vote on these awards. So unfortunately, I could not move the needle on on those at all. But it really was a special night just celebrating in House leadership across a few different sort of spectrums, ranging from community builder to, you know, most innovative Legal Team of the Year. And it was very inspiring and also quite enlightening to hear the stories of these folks and what they’re doing inside of their organisations and into in the legal community at large. And yeah, it gave me a lot of belief on, you know, where the profession is going. Because, you know, I don’t know if it’s sort of standard or par for the course across most organisations yet, but there are some that are sort of out in the lead when it comes to innovation, and they are truly moving the needle for their businesses and their teams. And, yeah, I think, you know, case in point, like, the future of law is is is very bright, as far as I’m concerned. And there’s any law students listening like, I wouldn’t be freaking out about AI, like, I think that there’s going to be a great future of law for folks coming into the profession now that probably, you know, doesn’t involve weeks of Doc review, which I think would be really nice for for folks coming up,

Robert Hanna  48:19  

yeah, exactly. You know, they can they get to get involved in some of the stuff that perhaps many before them really didn’t want to do so much of, and we’ve touched on it, but I want to ask more about it, because it’s so important now, particularly as a business, it’s just social media. Because how are you utilising social media platforms like LinkedIn to show what good lawyer is all about?

Brett Colvin  48:37  

LinkedIn is pretty much the only one that I would say that we’re using on a regular basis. And, you know, fundamentally, I think one of the advantages that we have are, you know, a lot of organisations might have one voice, often the CEO, who’s sort of sharing their story and talking, you know, about what’s going on in the in the company or the organisation. And you know, we’ve got a lot more voices than just mine. I am certainly a very loud one on LinkedIn. But you know, we’ve got 456, people that are telling the story from, you know, different perspectives with different leans. And I’m not sure if you ever saw the show, I think it was on Netflix, the playlist. Do you ever see the playlist?

Robert Hanna  49:24  

I didn’t. I felt like you got to check out the playlist. It’s, it’s

Brett Colvin  49:29  

the it’s the Spotify story. Okay, nice, but it’s the Spotify story from six or seven different perspectives, one of which is the first lawyer at Spotify. And every episode, it sort of follows the path of a different character in that story. And you know that was a discrete, sort of seven episode series or something like that. But I feel like, you know, good Lord on social media is somewhat similar, just more ongoing in the sense that you keep seeing different parts of the good Lord. Journey, the mission. You know, what we’re up to from slightly different characters, and so, you know, it kind of gives you a more holistic perception or feeling about what we’re you know, what good lawyer is all about. That isn’t just, you know, one crazy founder who, you know, took his ideas elsewhere. So I think that’s what’s really special about, you know, our brand journey, especially on LinkedIn and social media more broadly, is you get to see the good lawyer world from a few different vantage points.

Robert Hanna 50:31  

Yeah, and that’s what makes it so authentic. And, you know, I love the stories that are shared. You know, again, facts tell, but the stories really do sell and connect. And I think, you know, you’ve also done a recent post, which is I really liked actually, it said it’s wild, because I think it’s so authentic and true. It’s wild. How isolating this role can feel, even at the top. So what’s the meaning behind your post, and how can individuals feel less isolated when managing a business?

Brett Colvin  50:58  

I mean, I’m putting so many out. I’m trying to remember that one in particular, that that line, I think, ultimately, you know, if you’re the CEO or the the managing partner, whatever, if you’re, if you’re the, ultimately, the buck stops with somebody. And I mean, you know, one of the problems inside, you know, traditional large law firms is too frequently the buck actually doesn’t stop with anybody. It’s like a collective buck, and that’s what makes decision making so problematic or challenging. But inside of a corporation, the buck stops with somebody. In the case of good lawyer, the buck stops with me. And you know what that means is sometimes you have to make really hard decisions, and there’s no one else in the room in the world that can make that decision for you. Ultimately, you have to make that call. And, you know, I think that’s just part of of carrying the weight of of this seat. And you know, if you want to build something remarkable, you have to take ownership and responsibility over those really critical decisions. And, you know, I think fundamentally being sort of the the engine and the energy, the promoter and, you know, perpetual optimist is my role as CEO, coupled with the fact that, you know, from time to time, I have to make really hard decisions, and no one else can make those for me. And I think the way that I sort of manage that is having a very close relationship with my key execs. And, you know, very few decisions next to know decisions I make are made in isolation, even if I have to make the final judgement call and then surrounding myself with other founders and advisors, you know most often informally, that I can bounce ideas off of and collect as many data points as I can before making a big decision. Because I think, you know, for me, I’m always yearning, and you know, listening to your podcast has been a great way for me to do this as well for expedited learning. And there’s very few decisions that I have to make that are so different than a decision someone else has made before. And so the more data points from experienced folks I can gather, whether it’s a founder in FinTech, whether it’s an advisor who, you know, built and sold their 100 million dollar company, or it’s the you know, folks on my team who, in a lot of ways, are smarter than me, collecting all of those data points, that is ultimately how I sort of get the confidence. And then ultimately, you know, you got to pull the trigger and make those hard calls and and fortunately, I’ve got the memory of a goldfish so I can move past them pretty quickly.

Robert Hanna 53:49  

Thank you for being so so open about that. And you know, I remember a mentor said to me, Rob, grow, grow as you go. You know, ultimately, we’re always growing, aren’t we, as we go along along the journey. And you know that self accountability, I talk about it all the time. My favourite quote, If it’s meant to be it’s up to me. I maybe do have to make that tough decision. It’s on me to do that, and just rephrasing that mindset as well. Because typically, you know, you’re in a privileged position. If you’re running an organisation, you’re that leadership. I get to make that decision. I get to make that happen. And changing that sort of narrative, I think, is a really great way for people framing things in terms of, rather, I’ve got to do this today. It’s like, I get to make this real big decision. I’m sort of framing it as a as a real privilege. I found that’s really helped me over the years. I’ve loved this conversation Brett in terms of sort of good lawyer, and looking forward, it’s quite hard. We talked a lot about headlines before and things changing every five minutes. But what do you think good lawyer will look like in the next five years, what future plans do you have that you can share with us as of today?

Brett Colvin  54:47  

I mean, in five years, we’re going to be in a lot more jurisdictions. I might be hanging out a little more frequently with you and Oh, welcome anytime up in London, yeah. I am, you know, we’re going to be helping 1000s of lawyers build intentional careers and hopefully supporting, you know, 1000s of in house legal teams, far beyond just Canada and the US. I don’t see any reason why our growth can’t just keep compounding year after year. You know, we’ve already got some exciting news to share early New Year with other folks that are joining the team that I think are going to help really help us move the needle. And you know, I think in five months, as opposed to five years. I hope to see you in in Toronto at our next legendary yacht party, because that, for me, is going to be, you know, the first iteration we’ve done three or four yacht parties over the year. Things picture 500 people on a boat, but that’s going to be the first iteration where it had has sort of been fully consumed by this new ICP. So we’ve had lots of in House lawyers on the boat in years past, but this will be the first year where it is a boat entirely full of you know, peers, both on the supply side, the good lawyers in our network and the customers that were were serving. So I don’t know what 500 in House lawyers on a boat is going to do, but I really hope you can make it there. Maybe we’ll do a live pod that day, my friend.

Robert Hanna  56:32  

Well, people who follow the show know, earlier this year, out in Dubai, we’re on yachts with Dubai arena filming podcasts. So we are very partial. We are very partial to, yeah, very partial to recording. And that would be with absolute pleasure. And obviously, Cleo, who sponsor our show, we’re huge fans of have officers out there. We’d love to come and see that, and tie that in with a with a trip next year. So maybe, I

Brett Colvin  56:52  

suspect, I suspect Jack will be on the boat if he wasn’t there

Robert Hanna  56:56  

we go. So it could all, could all come together. Guys, maybe getting a bit of exclusive here on the show. Okay, Brett, we’ve talked, obviously about, a lot about the future of law, but maybe just again, just trying to get some of your predictions, wild predictions, wherever you want to take this. You know, we’ve talked about future of law and new ways to practice. What are some of the key disruptions you predict are going to transform legal services in the coming years?

Brett Colvin  57:18  

I mean, I think the new AI tools, and it will be very interesting to see like, sort of, who wins that race, if it’s the vertical specific or how far some of the foundational models go and start encroaching on to, you know, the the areas that some of the vertical players are living in. But I have no doubt we’re gonna figure out how to manoeuvre and sort of finagle the AI tools so they drive a tremendous amount of the the rote, sort of lowest level, highest volume tasks out of the hands of lawyers. That doesn’t scare me at all. In fact, you know when I think back to my first day in law school, which was maybe a few days before I bought the good lawyer domain in contract class. It was foundations, and I’ll never forget this professor, Professor DECOs. I did a post about this the other day too, the three Ds of being a lawyer, duty, deadlines and drudgery. And I was like, I’m pretty cool with duty deadlines. I work well under pressure, but I’m like, drudgery. I’m like, I I don’t like the sound of drudgery. I want to be a lawyer. And I think that is the core piece that, like AI, is going to strip away. It’s going to strip away a lot of this drudgery, a lot of this stuff that, you know, gets built today won’t get billed tomorrow, because it’s just going to be instantaneous. Much, you know, and it’s funny, people always freak out about and I’ve heard, you know, Jack Newton talk about this as well. When Excel came out, all the accountants were losing their minds because they, you know, had been making all their money counting chips on the ledger for years and years, and Excel, you know, eliminated that. Yeah, I’m quite certain we have more accountants today than we did then. And I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but this whole role called the CFO has emerged that, you know, is about as strategic in the company as you get, beyond the CEO. And I view a future where, you know, the CLO takes their rightful place in that same sort of hierarchy, where they’re not, like, reporting into a CFO, but they’re adding, like, unbelievable strategic value in, you know, with that legal lens, but far beyond it, because, you know, law school taught us the law but I think first and foremost, it taught us to be really sharp critical thinkers. And I don’t know, last time I checked, it’s harder to get into law school than it is to business school. So I feel very, sort of bullish on. Where lawyers can take their careers in the future with inside, large and small organisations. And the other piece, I think, for me, is the business models are going to evolve and adapt. You know, the i bankers figured it out a long time ago. They’ve been taking points for a long time working, I would argue, maybe harder in a moment, but less hard over the duration of a year than you know, their compatriots at the corporate law firms that are working on the same deals. And I know for a fact that the ivankers are making a lot more dough, taking points and a little bit of risk than the corporate guy, the corporate legal folks are making on paper in the deals. So I think that, you know, people are very worried that losing billable hours will be harmful for folks inside the profession. I completely disagree on that. On that front, I think selling time is always selling time should always be a backup to a less creative option. We should always be striving for more creative ways to value and sell the services the value we provide as professionals, and I think that value based villain, value based billing will become more and more prominent as the years go by. And you know, you heard it here first. I think that in 510, years, there will be fewer big firms in Canada. We saw one of the biggest firms in the history of Canada explode. I almost went there to Article Heenan Blakey, and it was gone. There’s a book about it. It was gone within a week or two after, you know, some internal grumblings, and there was effectively a run on the bank. And I would be stunned if that doesn’t happen again in the next five to 10 years, because ultimately, the traditional firms are a lot less sort of secure foundationally. I wouldn’t describe it fully as a house of cards, but there are links that can be pulled out that can be catastrophic incredibly quickly, like when I think about what a firm is, ultimately, it’s a collection of very smart, hopefully individuals, and a brand that is a bit of an umbrella on top of it, and that’s it. And I would encourage firms you know that are tuning in to think about ways to make their business, and you know, the folks inside of it stickier for the long term. And I think getting ahead of a lot of these waves, partnering with organisations that do things a little bit differently is going to be imperative, and we’ll probably see that from the leaders, because I also think there will be big firms in five to 10 years. I just think that they’ll be more dominant and fewer in number.

Robert Hanna 1:02:56  

Yeah, and again, I love that you talked about value based pricing. We’ve had a few people on the show really double down on that show. Sean Jardine, I think, gives a great analogy of this, who’s one of the guests we’ve had on who’s wrote books on this. Imagine you’ve got too fake Would You Rather, you know, pay more to get the relief quicker, or would you rather pay less and wait longer and stay in pain? You know, it’s the same service. It’s how it’s viewed, it’s how it’s presented. It’s about a menu of options. It’s how you position things. It’s how you really understand and meet your clients, where clients where they’re at. And if you can position things cleverly, I think you’ll do super, super well. This has been

Brett Colvin  1:03:27  

an outside mark, my final note on that, and then I’ll shut up, my friend, is what value based pricing, and just like the move in that direction, what it requires and what our profession has historically been so unreasonably adverse to is taking some risk. Yeah, that’s what it requires. You are the expert. You know, even when the first version of good lawyer, we started the fixed fee legal services market. And, you know, lawyers told me there’s no way I could fix the a job, it all depends. I could never do it. And then, you know, I say, Well, would you do a shareholders agreement for 1500 bucks? And they’re like, Absolutely. I’m like, we just did it. You just took on a little risk as the service provider, the expert, you gave the client price certainty, because they’re not the expert. You now have an incentive to drive that value more efficiently, everybody wins. So I think, you know, if there was one takeaway, the future of law requires lawyers, requires our profession to own a little more risk. And I think that’s going to be good for everybody. Yeah.

Robert Hanna 1:04:38  

And again, it’s so true, and I talk a lot about this, because things are going to change. If nothing changes, nothing changes. And I think I may even said this in one of the years as one of the talks for you at the future of law summit, the cost of inaction, like not taking action on something and maybe taking risk now, could be exponentially successful for you in the future. Whereas if you stay here and you sort of, you know, not sure, then actually. You probably could actually go the other way to your point that there may be some big firms, but maybe in one of those firms that may not be around in the future. Love it. Okay. One final piece of advice, Brett, what would you say to those interested in learning more about a career in house with an in house legal team, given where we are today,

Brett Colvin  1:05:16  

get on LinkedIn. Start reaching out. Take a little risk. Take a chance. Get outside of your comfort zone. Slide into my DMs and say hello. And you know, I’m always happy to chat with folks or point them in the right direction. So I would say, you know, get out of your comfort zone. Take a chance and reach out to the people who inspire you or who you want to learn from, because you know, if you’re not going to reach out to them, no action leads to no change.

Robert Hanna  1:05:47  

Yeah, yeah. The answer is always no. If you don’t ask, right? And I think you’re just saying exactly, go ahead and shoot your shot. You know, I say all the time, shot, baby. Yeah, shoot your shot. You’re one contact away, potentially away from changing your life. That could be an employer. It could be going to work for good lawyer. It could be getting connected through someone in Brett’s network. It could be whatever. It could be a mentor. It could be a business partner. Could be anything loved it, Brett, if our listeners, which I’m sure they do want to learn more about you, or indeed follow the good lawyer journey, where can they go? Feel free to share any websites, any social media handles. We’ll also include them in this very special episode for you too.

Brett Colvin  1:06:18  

Yeah. I mean, you can, if you want to check out the summit recording, just go to Summit. Dot, good lawyer.ca. If you’re an in house lawyer that’s interested in, you know, building an intentional career, fractional or otherwise, check us out at good lawyer.ca. And you know, for anybody that just wants to have a conversation, you can find me on LinkedIn. Brett Coleman,

Robert Hanna  1:06:41  

simple as that well. Brett, thank you so so much for today, it’s been absolute blast having you on the legally speaking podcast, finally sponsored by Clio, wishing you lots of continued success with building out good lawyer and indeed, all your future pursuits. But for now, from all of us over and out. 

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