On today’s Legally Speaking Podcast, I’m delighted to be joined by Jeremy Dein KC. 

Jeremy is one of the most highly regarded defence counsel in the country, specialising in serious offences including murder, terrorism and organised crime. He has dealt with multiple high-profile cases which have gained significant media attention, as described by chambers and partners. Jeremy is a fighter, and no case is too complex for him. He works tirelessly to ensure the right outcome.

So why should you be listening in? 

You can hear Rob and Jeremy discussing:

– The Value and Misconceptions of Criminal Defence Work

– An Urgent Need for Prison and Sentencing Reform

– Technology’s Transformative Impact on Criminal Law

– Advancing Diversity and Leadership in the Legal Profession

– Passion and Mentorship: The Keys to Legal Success

Connect with Jeremy Dein KC here – https://uk.linkedin.com/in/jeremy-dein-kc-639385b5

Transcript

Jeremy Dein KC  0:00  

You are the person standing between the state and the individual. The starting point within our criminal justice process is to address the question of who we send to prison. That’s the starting point. We have a prison population which is the biggest in the free world. There has to be scope for sending those people to prison, but they should become the exception, rather than the rule. I regard the work of defence lawyers in this country as so valuable and honestly, if the public knew how hard we worked and the way we worked and the ethical standards we adhere to and the commitment we show and the role we play in society, I think they would take a very, very different view.

Robert Hanna  0:44  

On today’s legally speaking podcast, I’m delighted to be joined by Jeremy Dein KC. Jeremy is one of the most highly regarded defence counsel in the country, specialising in serious offences including murder, terrorism and organised crime. He has dealt with multiple high-profile cases which have gained significant media attention, as described by chambers and partners. Jeremy is a fighter, and no case is too complex for him. He works tirelessly to ensure the right outcome. Oh, a very big, warm welcome

Jeremy Dein KC  1:14  

to the show, Jeremy. Thank you very much, Robin. Very happy to be here. Oh, it’s an absolute

Robert Hanna  1:19  

pleasure to have you on the legally speaking podcast. Very excited to get into today’s discussion before we dive into your incredible career, we do have an icebreaker question for you, Jeremy, on the scale of one to 10, with 10 being very real, what would you rate the hit TV series suits in terms of its reality of the law? If you’ve seen it,

Jeremy Dein KC  1:38  

I’m afraid I haven’t seen it, and that is all I can say about

Robert Hanna  1:43  

1. And with that, you can give it a zero, and we can move swiftly on to talking all about you. So to begin with, Jeremy, would you mind telling our listeners a bit about your background and career journey?

Jeremy Dein KC  1:53  

Rob, I’m I’ve been at the criminal bar now since 1983 I was called to the bar in 1982 so a very, very, very long time ago, although it genuinely feels like yesterday, I was born in East London, believe it or not, because I know I don’t sound like it. I’m a Cockney. I was born literally a few yards away from the Bow Bells in bow Hospital. My father was a Cockney, a character as you could ever come across with the thickest cockney accent you could imagine. And my mum too. And I grew up in East London, went to a state school, went to Queen Mary College in the East End, although I didn’t actually live at home. Perversely, don’t ask me why I did that, but that’s what happened. Couldn’t really prise myself away from my beloved East End and went to the bar I was called in 1982 as I’ve said. And I’ve been on my journey incredibly now, for four and a bit decades. And that’s, that’s a very bare outline of my career path, and

Robert Hanna  2:58  

it’s been such a successful career path. And you know, we’re really honoured to have you on the show. And so getting into a bit more detail, then, from sort of the Old Bailey to the BBC, how do you actually balance the demands of being this top tier criminal KC, I might add, within your role, as well as a legal educator, from get my words out, and media commentator, because it’s a lot of work.

Jeremy Dein KC  3:19  

Thanks for those comments, Rob. You know, I don’t really see myself that way. Actually, I see myself still as a little kid, you know, from sort of sitting on the stairs trying to find out how West Ham were doing in the days when there was no TV football. So it’s been an incredible journey. And you know, it’s in situations like this, really is the only time I reflect upon it. Otherwise, you just get on with your daily life. I mean, it has been action packed, and it remains action packed, and that’s the way I want it to be. And I think the answer is a lot to do with good fortune in the sense that, you know, I’ve got a wife who’s incredibly free spirited. So, you know, I’ve got a lot of independence. She’s very encouraging. I thrive on pressure. It’s a bit of a love hate relationship. But you know, with all the things that are going on, they just keep me exhilarated, and they keep my sense of, you know, ambition and momentum. So I kind of just balance them out, really. And I think, you know, for me, excitement and challenge at the food of life, so that’s how I’ve kept it going. And, you know, at the moment, it’s still at the same level it’s ever been. I’m sure there’ll come a time in the not too distant future when I’ll have to calm it down a bit. But that that point hasn’t come yet, and

Robert Hanna  4:43  

I don’t want it to come yet for you, just just yet for us here on the show. And you’re right. You know, the famous quote, pressure is a privilege. And, you know, I remember a mentor said to me very early on, you know, new level, new devil. As you keep going up or keep getting involved, there’s going to be new new things, new challenges, new things you need to overcome. And it’s part of your. Growth, isn’t it? I think it is, yeah. I think it is yeah. And you’ve defended in some of the most high profile UK criminal trials. So what’s been the most challenging case, if you can share and what teach you most about justice?

Jeremy Dein KC  5:15  

I mean, I think every case is challenging, because if you take it seriously, which most criminal defence barristers do, then what happens is that when you’re in a trial, it takes over your life, it really does, and it becomes the focal point of your life for that period of time, especially obviously when you’re doing very serious cases. But I do think that the most challenging situation professionally was the Talisa case. The the Talisa, who was an Ex Factor judge and lead singer in n Dubs, who was subject to the sun on Sunday. Sting at the hands of the sun on Sunday, and Mazda Mahmud, the fake Sheikh. Because that case was very serious, she was at risk of going to prison for a significant period of time. She was set up by the sun on Sunday, and by most of my mood the evidence against her was difficult to counteract, but morally and in terms of justice, it would have been a real travesty if she’d been convicted. And there was just incredible pressure on me in that case, because her whole professional life, her reputation, her personal life, were at stake. And so that case stands out to me as being one where which was exceptionally stressful and challenging.

Robert Hanna  6:33  

And that leads nicely onto a question I was going to ask link to your mindset, values and resilience. And before I do that, I do you remember that case? And our listeners will know the legally speaking podcast also has our own event with the high risk the great big legal off site. And we actually had the MC Peter Dixon of the voice of The X Factor in Britain, Scott talent. It was a fantastic event. So I’d encourage our listeners to go and check out that on the legally speaking podcast website to learn more about that event. But in terms of yourself, Jeremy, you’ve mentioned that case. You’re a fearless advocate, obviously known for unwavering if I can say moral conviction, how do you actually stay grounded while defending clients in a very emotional and perhaps very ethically charged case?

Jeremy Dein KC  7:14  

That’s a very good question. I think what you do is you just commit yourself totally to the case, and you know that you are the person that is standing between the state and the individual. That is a very, very important role. I never lose sight of the significance of that role. And you just fight the case as hard as you can. And in a way, there isn’t any room for emotion or sympathy or anger or frustration. You just You’re so all consumed with the challenge you know that you face that you just get on with it. And I’m very proud to be a criminal defence barrister when I’m doing my case is even now after you know so long, I know this is going to sound a bit cringy, but it’s genuinely how I feel. I just feel very privileged to have been able to do a job, if that’s the right word, which has such importance and which, you know, fulfils a major role in a free society, and whatever the verdict is, so be it, you know, that’s not my responsibility, so I stay grounded by just getting on with it, doing what I’m there to do, doing the best of my ability. And, you know, grappling with the challenges that confront me, and there is no time or space to kind of get anything else at the time you’re doing these cases,

Robert Hanna  8:41  

yeah, and you’re exceptionally passionate and dedicated to what you do, hence the amount of accolades and market recognition you’ve had, and streaming steaming from that. Then I’m just thinking about misconceptions. Maybe the public has still about criminal defence work, and how do you hope maybe your media work and extra things that you’ve done is changing that and maybe changing some of these misconceptions.

Jeremy Dein KC  9:06  

Okay, well, I think again, Rob, that’s a very, very good and an important issue you’ve raised, and one that’s very precious to me, because I regard the role of criminal defence lawyers in this country. I can’t, I can’t speak much about, you know, other countries, but I regard the work of defence lawyers in this country as so valuable and honestly, if the public knew, if the public knew how hard we worked and the way we worked and the ethical standards we adhere to And the commitment we show and the role we play in society, I think they would take a very, very different view. And also, you know, especially for the lower echelons of the profession, the fees are not, you know, particularly good at all, and yet people get on and do such a fantastic job. So what my media opportunities have? Done is, I hope, enabled me to get that message across, because there is nothing for criminal defence lawyers in this country to be maligned about. We do, you know, I’m very fortunate at the top of the profession. So you know, I have time and space between my cases. I know what my diary is in the future, but the foot soldiers, they run around all over the country, day in day out. They very often don’t know what case they’re going to be doing tomorrow. Whether they go from Bristol to Manchester to Exeter, they get their brief sometimes at 6pm at night, because somebody else can’t do the case. So they do an incredible job. And you know, someone like me today, and I’m grateful to you for giving the opportunity, and in terms of my media opportunities generally facilitate the message going out, please, you know, recognise the fantastic work that we do. So I’m really happy that I have that opportunity

Robert Hanna  10:57  

and you do it so well, and that’s why we were so keen, as well as legal educators and trying to our tagline of the show is inspiring legal minds, transforming legal futures is to bring information and stories and wisdom from people who have been out there that have done it, that you know, really know what they’re talking about. And perhaps can change misconceptions. Because the amount of work and dedication and things that go on behind the scenes, as you just touched on there is, is phenomenal. And so maybe that leads me to the journey, then, in terms of how, but Robin,

Jeremy Dein KC  11:26  

if I can just, sorry to interrupt you, but if I can just, don’t know, I just want to add this also what the public need to recognise. You know, I’m not really speaking about myself, because I am right, you know, at the top and I and so I’ve had all the years of experience, and I have teams to assist me. I mean, it does apply to me, but it applies much more importantly, so far as I’m concerned, across the board, what the public also needs to recognise in terms of the work that we do, that we’re dealing all the time with damaged individuals. You know, we’re dealing with people who come from the most oppressive backgrounds, very often people who’ve been sexually abused, domestically abused, you know, the victims of violent abuse, psychological problems, psychiatric all these things. So we’re not only, you know, performing a very important role and working very hard, but the people that we’re actually representing, the people we’re dealing with on a day to day basis, are hugely challenging. So there needs to be an understanding of the value of the work that defence lawyers do, because, because it’s very important that, you know, that is recognised anyway, that’s what I have to say on that. Sorry. I interrupted you,

Robert Hanna  12:31  

and that was a very, very important point, and it also sort of touches on a lot of my why, really, in terms of my understanding that I came from probably what might be deemed more of a privileged background. And you know, I always think I can’t change that, but I can pass the baton forward, and I can do good things, such as this show and bring on voices like you, and educate and and do good with that, to put more good into society, to try and make a positive impact, to try and make a change. And so I thank you for for doing that, and that touches on a lot of the values and things that we, um, we support here. And I was going to ask just around the journey, because we talked off there, and I touched on, obviously, we partner with Clio, the world’s large legal technology company. We can’t get away from technology is advancing in every industry and and will continue to do so. So from your role as a criminal barrister, I think over 40 years you practice, where do you see it heading? Give us your more historical but also forward looking perspective. And do you see technology having a large impact?

Jeremy Dein KC  13:29  

I mean, technology is having a huge impact on the criminal justice system, and I’ve no doubt will continue to do so. I mean, for a large part of my career. Well, firstly, I was called in 82 I mean, computers didn’t come about, you know, in any meaningful way, until it well into the 90s, and mobile phones were sort of early 90s. So it’s incredible to think that in the earliest of my career, everything was done on paper. You know, we literally wrote everything out on paper, and I handed it to a typist, and if our clerks wanted to contact us when we were all over the country, you know, they’d have to somehow ring the court to get the court Usher, you know, to they describe the individual. You know, you can imagine what description was given. A lot allocated to me to try and find the ballot and so on. And then, obviously, as the decades have gone by, things have changed. The biggest innovation in the criminal justice process technologically is a digital case system whereby, in the criminal justice world, everything, everything, in every case, bar, very few, is uploaded onto one digital system so that the judge, the prosecution and the defence all have access to that system. Everything is carefully numbered. Sometimes there are 1000s and 1000s of documents, and increasingly in the criminal courts, it’s paperless, and barristers are working simply off the digital system. The challenge for someone like me is to try and adapt completely to that, because I’m used to having files post. It notes, coloured markers, coloured pens. So I’m a bit of a I can work off the digital system in terms of preparation, but when I actually get into court, I still have, you know, the old fashioned files and and stickers and so on and so forth. But also Rob in terms of criminal justice process, investigative techniques are, you know, developing by the minute, and trials are now characterised by, you know, all types of technological evidence relating to telephones, you know, CCTV and all kinds of things. So the criminal justice system is moving very, very fast in that respect, even at a time when it’s under huge pressure. You know, in other ways. The only thing I just add, sorry that my response is slightly lengthy, but you’ve raised a really important issue, is that juries are still stuck in little jury boxes with bits of paper and pens. They don’t get iPads or computers. So it’s slightly odd that, you know, all this technology has, you know, found its way into the criminal justice process of the trial, but the jury just sort of all crammed in to a little jury box, trying to scribble on paper, and that’s how it remains.

Robert Hanna  16:15  

Do you think that may change?

Jeremy Dein KC  16:17  

It might do. But honestly, the criminal justice system is so under pressure, financially, with the backlog and everything else. You just never know, because physically, the courts are falling apart. The actual buildings, the buildings are in a terrible mess, with one or two exceptions, the old Bailey’s still a great and iconic building, but going out and about to the other crown courts, which I don’t do a lot, but which a lot of you know my colleagues do. Yeah, they’re all got damp and and you know that they’re grubby, and there are a lot of problems. So I’m not sure there’s, you know, much funding to improve the lot of the jury. I don’t know, but I doubt it.

Robert Hanna  16:59  

Yeah, and it’s reminds me of when I was a young pup, when so my late grandfather, of listeners will know, he ran a successful law firm in Leicestershire, where I’m from, built up to one of the, sort of Leicester’s second richest city in the UK, actually, in the 1950s due to the hosiery trade, and was able to build a very successful law firm that span across the region. And I remember go, he said, Go to the courts and watch it. Even back then, you know, they’re a little bit grubby. They weren’t great. They looked a bit wrong. And just thinking back to his generation, where it was all paper, and he’ll tell me stories of my late grandma. At the time, it was writing shorthand as one of the receptionist taking notes, and they were literally just really paper strong. I’d go to the strong room, I’d go and get the deeds, the files and everything else. Whereas the modern professional coming in and, like you say, it’s a lot of, it’s all online. It’s a big,

Jeremy Dein KC  17:44  

Oh, absolutely. I mean, you very often, you very often see in a court centre, you know, in the corridors and so on, almost all barristers just walking around with it. I’ve just done a long case in Winchester with my junior Council, you know, I lugged up in my car on Sunday with 567, files and so on. And he kind of, you know, breezed in on Monday morning just with his computer. Yeah, crazy. And same, same material, same material. So that’s just how it is.

Robert Hanna  18:15  

A boring, interesting fact, I was born in Winchester. I don’t know a lot about right? Yeah, so I think that’s the first people would know, there we go. Lovely place.

Jeremy Dein KC  18:22  

It’s not boring. It just shows how, you know, strange coincidence is.

Robert Hanna  18:26  

absolutely so on sort of your career journey, then what drew you to sort of criminal appellate work, and can you share a case where your advocacy truly changed the course of someone’s life?

Jeremy Dein KC  18:39  

Um, right, but very, you know, very interesting issues. I think what drew me to being a I wasn’t so much drawn to criminal law. I was drawn to being a defence. I was drawn to being an advocate for the underdog. I was, you know, I wasn’t, I wasn’t particularly academic at school. I was very, I was a very odd pupil, because I was unbelievably bad at certain subjects like maths, physics and chemistry, where I struggled really badly in woodwork and art and subjects like that. I mean, my art teacher, he was a very odd man. You know, I’m absolutely convinced that, you know, I was the most hated person he’d ever come I was so bad at art, but I was very good at the Arts. I was good at history and English subjects like that. And the one thing that I was good at was public speaking, which was quite odd, because quite shy. But, you know, I did grow up in a in a strong, working class household. My dad was a waiter. It was very much a Daily Mirror household where the Daily Mirror will come through the letterbox, you know, a labour household. And clearly, as we all do, you know, like you, I just was formed by my back. Crown, and I wanted to be a spur. I wanted to be an advocate for the underdog. That’s what I wanted to do, yeah, and so the obvious place to go for that was to the criminal bar, and so that, you know, that’s what drew me to that. And you know, I haven’t really looked back because, because it’s worked. It’s worked well for me, and I still love being, you know, a spokesman for what I call the underdog. I mean, whether the individuals are always truly the underdog, you know, especially as you go through your career where you move into private work and so on, I’m not sure that the underdog is necessarily the right word, but largely they have been in terms of cases. I mean, I’ll be honest, I need to think about your question in relation to a particular case. It’s a really fantastic question. If I could just ask question more more widely and say that, especially in homicide cases, which I’ve done a lot on in the last 20 to 25 years, very often the issue is manslaughter or murder for a whole range of reasons. And if someone is convicted of murder when they should be convicted of manslaughter, that’s a really serious miscarriage of justice, because the sentence framework is so different. So I would say that I feel that the biggest impact I’ve been able to have is to secure verdicts for manslaughter, just verdicts for manslaughter in very serious, unpleasant homicide cases. When my advocacy, but for my advocacy, there might have been convictions for murder. So a person might have got a life sentence with a 25 year minimum term, wrongly, wrongly. Whereas the defence barrister, and you’re asking about me here, has been able to get the correct verdict, which is man’s daughter with a set of fixed term of 15 years. So I think, and you know, in the Talisa case, for example, where I did win against all the odds by advocacy obviously made a difference there. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t work, but it’s hard to pick out individual cases. I just think that, you know, the defence advocate can and does often make a big difference and secure the right result on the facts of the case, and that, you know, gives me a lot of fulfilment for myself and for my profession.

Robert Hanna  22:33  

Yeah, and I want to talk about the future of the profession because, and maybe you know what legacy means to you, because you’ve held various very senior leadership roles, joint heads of chambers, Director of Education, the CBA. So what have these roles taught you about shaping the future of the bar? What?

Jeremy Dein KC  22:51  

What they’ve taught me? I mean, Rob again, just to divert slightly, when I came into the profession, you you won’t believe how unpleasant it was. It was so sexist and racist that unless you fitted the mould, which I did not, I didn’t look like a barrister. I didn’t even sound like a barrister at that time, it was deeply unpleasant. I think what my roles professionally? You know, in the CBA and structure of education, I’ve seen a lot of changes in the profession. I’ve seen a lot more, you know, fairness, women have been embraced much more. Ethnic minorities have been embraced much more. You know, I think what being at the leadership end of the CBA has done has enabled me not just to play a part in opening up the profession over the years, but also to recognise the importance of giving everybody the opportunity to come to the bar, because, you know, it is a great profession. It is hugely important. And so being able to make a minor contribution to the development of the profession has, you know, given me the chance, I hope, to promote the changes that when I came into the profession simply were not on the agenda. It was just completely white, male, Etonian. It was actually, you know, quite repugnant. It’s changed out of all recognition.

Robert Hanna  24:13  

Now, yeah, I just challenge you on minor I’d say you’ve made a major impact from following your journey and what you’ve done. I think the work you’re doing is tremendous. And, you know, just please doing it a question in terms of toolboxes. You know, everyone has skill sets. And so I’m thinking top of mind here, what’s one skill that you would never want to lose, knowing that you’ve got to the top, as you’ve said, you’re at the top of the profession, and you were starting from zero again, what’s that one skill that you would never want to lose, that you’ve continuously, always been working on, that’s enabled you to get to the top?

Jeremy Dein KC  24:48  

I think the answer for me, the answer to that, is simple, is passion. It’s passion. It’s It’s passion to like. When I came into the profession, I felt. That I’d made the wrong decision because I was so out of place. I mean, I’m not exaggerating. I used to stand outside my people whose chambers in the morning by the River Thames, summoning up the courage to walk through the door. I found it so intimidating, but I just knew this is what I wanted to do. And that passion, so, passion to to succeed, passion to do the job, and passion in, you know, presenting defences in individual cases. So you’ve asked me, what the one skill or quality that I wouldn’t want to lose that I feel has driven me forward is, and it is, you know, is passion. I It’s not intellect. I don’t think you know, obviously you have to be clever to be embarrassed. You have to be a barrister. You have to be clever to do your job. But I think as a criminal defence barrister, if you’ve got passion, and a jury sees you’ve got passion, a judge sees you’ve got passion, your clients see you’ve got passion, your their families feel that you’ve got passion, then you’re on the road to having a meaningful career.

Robert Hanna  25:59  

Today’s episode is brought to you by Clio. Are you frustrated with your current legal management software? You’re not alone, and 1000s of solicitors across the UK feel your pain. However, the hassle of moving all their existing client and case data holds most back from switching, prolonging the frustration. Clio is here to help. Their dedicated migration team will be with you every step of the way while you transfer your information, and if you have any questions, you’ll get award winning support available 24, five by live chat, phone and email. So help is always there when you need it most. It’s no wonder Clio is consistently receiving five star ratings for its ease of use and top notch service. If you’re ready to leave frustration behind. Visit clio.com forward slash UK, to learn more and see why Clio continues to be the go to choice for solicitors across the UK. Now back to the show. I couldn’t agree more, and Passion is everything, isn’t it? I feel like with I’m passionate about doing this, I’m passionate about building community, passionate about helping people, but you can’t hide it. I don’t think you can hide the passion. When you when you really find your true passion, there’s nothing that will stop you, because, you know, let’s speak off the record here. There’s a lot of shit days you’ll have in your career. And if you don’t have that passion or understanding about why you’re doing what you’re doing, then inevitably you might give up. And I feel like, you know, and so having that and energy is infectious. And, you know, being and I think also, when you bring that passion to your profession, your craft, whatever it is, not just necessarily within law, I think you attract the right people as well that come to you that can help you. I’m sure you’ve had tremendous mentors throughout your career, maybe, oh, definitely, without doubt, without to talk about that and the importance maybe of mentorship. Is there anything you would say on that?

Jeremy Dein KC  27:40  

Yeah, oh, yeah. I think mentorship is really crucial. It’s not always easy, time wise, to dedicate the sort of time that you want. But, I mean, you know, it’s, it’s amazing, really, how young people, you know, how, how much they, they, they cherish the opportunity just to speak to you or spend a day with you, or whatever it may be. It’s quite embarrassing, you know, you get emails, you know, and you’d think that you know that you were offering like, 20 million pounds just to spend an afternoon watching you at the Old Bailey. So I think it’s very important to do it. What you know when you when you can, it’s, as I’ve said, it’s not always. And there are also a lot of rules and regulations now about, you know who you can take to court, whether they have to go through a complex application process and so on. But yes, of course, mentorship is, you know, we should all try and embrace that as something we do when, when we’ve had a lot of experience, without doubt, because experience matters Absolutely.

Robert Hanna  28:39  

And I want to talk now about sort of the sentencing. We’ve had a host of barristers on the show over the years, from Chris door KC, we’ve had through to redline chambers, and a whole host of people come on. And I want to get your thoughts on this as someone who’s at the top of the game as well in terms of the sentencing policy and prison reform in the UK, and what changes you would actually like to see maybe in the next few years.

Jeremy Dein KC  29:05  

Well, the question of prison reform is one that’s very close to my heart, because I think the state of our prisons is is truly, truly, truly shocking and unacceptable. I mean, I’ve had recent experience of this in a trial I’ve been doing in Winchester where a defendant of good character, he was on a serious charge. He’s 64, years old. He’s never been in trouble before, but on the night before he was due to be tried, he was transferred from Werman scrubs prison to Winchester prison. He was put in a cell with a drug, drug addict. He was up all night watching TV, talking to himself, just being very disruptive throughout the whole trial, my client was in a cell with this person, so he barely slept during his own trial, he was woken up at five in the morning and brought to court. A little van in a sort of cage type thing, not given any breakfast, just treated like an animal. And that encapsulates the state of the prison system. The prison system is a complete shambles. The accommodation largely is out of date and inadequate and inappropriate for housing human beings in the 20 in in, you know, this century, prison staff are not properly trained. Most of them have no interest in rehabilitation. They don’t even know what it is. They just lock people up. You know, a good proportion of them were working in Sainsbury’s or Tescos, and then decided they wanted to become prison officers. Resources are too limited. Rehabilitation isn’t readily available. Reoffending is too high. We operate a system of human dustbin in this country, the prison system is in it just needs completely erasing and stuff. We need to start all over again in terms of how many people we send to prison, why we send people to prison, and which institutions you’ve got mentally disordered offenders, people with personality disorders, heavily mixed up with art criminals. There’s no discrimination in in terms of sifting, it’s a shambles, it’s chaos, and it has to be revisited in a big way. This government, you know, are not doing anything too seriously releasing people after 40% is just, is just, you know, papering over the cracks. So I feel very strongly about the prison system, and in terms of sentencing policy. Generally, we send too many people to prison. We have a custodial obsession, and we’re not creative enough in our in our sentencing options. So, you know, I’m loathe to be too critical, because, you know, I don’t like being critical, but obviously I have very, very strong views on these matters,

Robert Hanna  32:05  

and we want people to share their views. And you know, thank you. Thank you for being candid. But we also like to feel like we we give people solutions or suggestions or thoughts for the future. So flipping it onto a perhaps more positive lens in terms of change or things could be do better. Is there, like, one or two actionable things that you would like to see that’s actually achievable, that’s just low hanging

Jeremy Dein KC  32:28  

fruit? No, well, I I fully understand why you see that question. Because, as I was speaking, I was thinking, I’m not saying anything constructive. I think, I think Rob the starting point within our criminal justice process is to address the question of who we send to prison. That’s the starting point. We have a prison population which is the biggest in the free world. So I think the government should, or whoever the government is, should, should instigate a consultation and or, you know, some form of operation targeting the question of who we send to prison. There should be much more rigorous guidelines on who we send to prison. We should really only be sending people to prison if they are dangerous. Okay, fine. If people commit offences of dishonesty and other types of offences that are not, you know, on the face of it, dangerous, there has to be scope for sending those people to prison, but they should become the exception rather than the rule. At the moment, you know, we just sending almost everybody who commits any offence which is vaguely serious to prison once we start sorting out the prison system, and we’re drastically reduced prison numbers, and in conjunction, we look much more closely at constructive options to replace prison, which is the second of my proposals, then I think we can start to make progress. But whilst we have a custodial obsession, we’re just not going to we’re not going to get anywhere, because we’re going to be we’re going to be refuelling the commission of crime by by triggering anger and frustration amongst huge number of people who are going to prison, not being educated, not being rehabilitated, coming out and reoffending in a big way. So the starting point is, look again at the concept of imprisonment and frame, you know, developments in the criminal justice process around that,

Robert Hanna  34:27  

completely agree. And I’m just pausing for thought on that, because you put some really good context to it. Access to Justice is something we’re very passionate about here on the show. What does justice mean to you in a very well, both narrow and broader sense. What does justice

Jeremy Dein KC  34:45  

mean to you? Yeah, I know I keep saying it, but you know that raises, you know, really significant issues. You know, for me, justice is a very, very, very. Wide concept. So I don’t think the criminal justice process always throws up justice. Can I just very briefly tell you what I mean by that? Yes, please, a kid of 16 who’s convicted of murder as part of a joint enterprise stabbing and who is sentenced to life imprisonment having been proved to be complicit in that murder. That is not justice, in my view, in circumstances where that individual has had no proper parenting and no proper education, comes from a broken home. Comes from a home where there’s been no guidance, where there has been no emotional input and where essentially no leadership has taken place altogether so very often in my work, so I’ve represented not so much now, but you know, 510, years ago, kids very young, kids black, kids, mainly convicted of homicide and so on, sent to prison for life. 16, 1517, a just verdict on the evidence may be, but in terms of the concept of justice generally, I’ve often looked at these people as they’ve been led off to start their life sentences, and think, you know what? How can we do this? This person has had no opportunities in life whatsoever, has been the victim of terrible circumstances, and now we’re locking them up for life. So I just want to use that as an example of how difficult I find the concept of justice to be. For me, justice should reflect just that. It should reflect the offender’s true culpability, and that true culpability must stem not just from the act that leads them to be convicted or the offence that leads them to be convicted, but their wider circumstances. Unfortunately, in a trial that can’t really happen because the issue is limited to culpability for the offence, but I think sentencing should have a much more liberal and wider application, looking much more fundamentally at the offender’s background and circumstances that it does. It does look at those background circumstances, but it’s too inflexible. It doesn’t permit for radical reductions in sentence in order to take account of those circumstances. And I mean, you know, there are, I could, I’m not going to because I don’t want you know monitor, but I could give you know, very specific examples of where clients of mine have been sentenced to years and years imprisonment, where I feel genuinely they should not have gone to prison at all. So justice needs to have a much more liberal interpretation in the criminal justice process, in my view, than it currently does.

Robert Hanna  37:43  

And again, thank you for sharing your experiences and rationale for that. And you know, it’s interesting to hear. You know, you’ve done so many cases and seen so many things, maybe flipping the question around a bit, what types of cases would you tend to turn down then? And why?

Jeremy Dein KC  38:02  

I can answer that question very simply. I won’t do any case in which there is an element of anti semitism, because I’m a proud Jew, and as proud today as I’ve ever been, the reason why I am a fierce opponent, as I’m sure you are and all of your listeners are, to any form of racism. But the second part of your question was, why would I not do such a case? And the answer is, because I don’t feel that I could do it with commitment and passion, you know, and to the best of my ability. I come from a holocaust surviving background. The last thing I’m going to do is to put my skills and energy into defending someone who, you know, is who is prejudiced against Jews. To be honest, I tend to apply the same principle to all cases where there is an element of racism. I actually, I’ve turned down a quite a very high profile case recently, which had nothing to do with anti semitism but had a strong racist element. So I think, actually, maybe I was too quick to answer your question. I’ve turned down cases with an anti semitic angle. I’ve turned down cases with a racist angle. I don’t think I would do any case with a racist angle in my career ever again. I may have done one or two a long time ago, because, because I don’t feel that in cases with that racist settlement, I could give my commitment to representing that offender. So that’s my answer to that.

Robert Hanna  39:30  

And probably comes back to what we talked about earlier in terms of being passionate and the values that you hold as well. Yeah, just there’s no alignment there. Is there. And, you know, I know strongly in that we’ve had lots of discussions, and we’ve had Stephanie Boyce, you know, former president of the Law Society of England, Wales. He’s done great work, along with various other change makers, Dana, Denise Smith, OB, you all come on the show that are passionate about diversity, equity, inclusion and the inclusion piece, and myself as well. You know, I’m half English, half Iraqi. I come from, right? You know, you know. An international background as well. I’m passionate about ensuring these, these discussions, you know, we do our best to educate, to try and eradicate as best we can. And it all comes down to, you know, good people trying to do as much as they can, to put good into society, to make a positive change. I’m very passionate about that.

Jeremy Dein KC  40:17  

I think Robin just, just to add very quickly, sorry, I just think, for a criminal defence barrister, if there’s any element of the case, that means that you’re liable, even by point 00, you know one of percent not to do it with full commitment. You shouldn’t do it. So, so, so whoever we’re talking about, and whatever particular complication there is, unless you can give 1,000% you just shouldn’t do it. And I don’t think people do on all, I don’t know, but I don’t think people do, sorry, you can ask something

Robert Hanna  40:47  

else. No, I’m an all in guy, so you know, if I’m going to do something, and that’s why we’re on a hell of a journey with this show, to make it more than just another podcast, to really, you know, amplify and hopefully as a legacy. For me, look back and think, wow, you know, the conversations and the things attached to the show really helped and changed people’s lives and educated, yeah, and, of course, gave them fun education. Okay, try, we try not to get too political on the show, but in a sort of rising political rhetoric, if you like, and media centralization, because we can’t get away from that, how can lawyers preserve and lead professionals, of course, the principles of a fair trial and due process, in your opinion?

Jeremy Dein KC  41:28  

Well, I think again, I can’t, I can’t speak for lawyers outside the context of the criminal justice process. But I think, you know, I have great respect for the Prosecution Service in this country, you know. So I don’t want to focus, you know, completely on the defence, although that’s my pride and joy, you know, I think on the whole the criminal bar, those who prosecute the criminal bar very professional, and on the whole fair, and I’ve seen, you know, I know, and I’m good friends with a number of extraordinarily, you know, talented prosecutors. We’re not I mean, when I say friends, I don’t really socialise, but we get on well. So I think the general objective in this country is to produce a fair trial on both sides and to perform, you know, with integrity that’s so important, with commitment, with professionalism, with efficiency. And I think on the whole, you know, we do produce fair trials. We do produce fair trials. And I’m, you know, fervent sort of fan of the jury system. I think on the whole, verdicts are the right verdicts. And I think fundamentally, you know, the system works well. It’s not perfect, but it works well. Everyone strives to secure a just verdict in the circumstances. As I’ve said, the sentencing process is different. I think it’s far too rigid in its approach. It produces a lot of injustice, not because the judges are bad. I think the judges in this country are great. I really think they do their very best in difficult circumstances just because of the system that we have. So I think just hard work, commitment, honesty, integrity, determination, mutual interest. And you know, the result is pretty much a fair trial in in most cases.

Robert Hanna  43:13  

And yeah, and that’s what we all we want at the end of the day. And Jeremy, this has been a very rich, authentic and open and sort of to the point as well discussion as I knew it was going to be, and that’s why I was so excited to have you on the show today. But before I let you go, and this is quite a hard question, because, you know, one piece of advice, I’m sure there’s lots you’d like to do, but I want to try and be specific, one piece of advice you could give to the next generation of criminal barristers, appreciating we’re in 2025 and things are changing at light speed. We’ve touched on technology, especially for those who want to try and get to the top, like you have, what would you say? What’s that one piece? I just

Jeremy Dein KC  43:50  

think, you know, Rob that. That’s quite a sort of emotional question for me, because, you know, it was, it was my dream to go to the bar at a time when for someone, for a kid like me, it was a pipe dream, to be honest. You know, when I think back now to how on earth it happened, I haven’t got a clue how it happened, quite honestly, just kind of a mystery to me. That’s genuinely how I feel. So I would say, I just think, be relentless, you know, if, wherever you come from, whoever you are, whatever you look like, however you sound, just be relentless. Because all I can say, all I can say, is that I was relentless, you know, I don’t even think I’m meant to be relentless, you know, I just was and, and it’s worked well, you know, and I’ve done what I wanted to do, so I could only pass on my experience, and what I feel was my driving force, which was passion and relentlessness. And say to the to any kid, young person, you know, that wants to achieve in the profession, just, just be relentless. Just. Just go forward and just follow your dream. I know this sounds, probably sounds a bit sort of cliche, but you know, it’s just how it’s been. It’s just how it’s been.

Robert Hanna  45:10  

And it’s, it’s true, isn’t it? And I think sometimes when people think relentless, you know, oh, the reality with relentless, you could still be and should be and will be, if you’re around the right people, an exceptionally kind citizen, yeah, of course, good for society. So being relentless and focused and fierce in your role and still being a good citizen. For me, they all go hand in hand, and it’s all about just being about the right people and

Jeremy Dein KC  45:32  

having Yeah, but Robin, the concept of relentless is you’re absolutely spot on. I mean, when I say relentless, I don’t mean relentless in a sort of cruel way. I mean relentlessness becoming a barrister, and obviously my field of speciality is criminal defence. That relentless encompasses getting on very well with people, getting on with solicitors who might want to instruct you, getting on with the young people in those firms of solicitors, making them feel valued, so that they value you, letting the families of accused people know that you care about, that you know, their children that you’re representing. You know, getting on with prosecutors, respecting so relentless. I don’t want by relentlessness, I don’t just mean, you know, a sort of naked determination to succeed. I just mean relentless in terms of embracing all and everything that might take you forward, but in so doing, you know, helping and promoting the interests of other people, as well as a side, you know, subsidiary consequence of your own, perhaps selfish determination.

Robert Hanna  46:37  

Yeah, no, absolutely. And we’re all running our own race, at our own pace. And I guess that, you know, thought in my head, my late grandpa always said to me, and you talked about the word respect to his, you know, in any career, he said, Ladd, you make sure you live respected and die regretted. And I think it’s, you know, everything I try and bring to every day is that right? You want to try and, you know, respect each parties be, you know, really respected. And hopefully a legacy that we all end up leaving is one that, you know, you did good. I mean, we could go on for hours. Jeremy, yeah, no, I know that you are absolutely slammed, and it’s been a fascinating discussion. We’ve been learning more about where you started, where you’ve got to what you’ve been doing, your thoughts on the future and everything. So it’s been an absolute masterclass, and I’m sure listeners are going to want to know more about you. So if they do, where can they go to find out more? Is there a particular website, or is there a social media handle like LinkedIn? People can go and follow you. If so, feel free to share

Jeremy Dein KC  47:26  

I Yeah. I am on LinkedIn quite a lot. I’m not. I LinkedIn is probably the place my chambers, website, www.25bedfordrow.com, that. And I’ve, as, you know, I’ve done quite a lot of stuff on the BBC. My my BBC series murder mystery of my family, where we did 50 reviews of historic death penalty cases. That’s really interesting. I mean, you know, I’m not great on social media and stuff. I’m from a bygone era, but, but I would like to thank you, Rob, you’ve asked some great, really good insights and questions. And I know this has been about me, but I do value the opportunity to explain, you know, the path, and to send out the message that it is possible to to follow your dream, because, because you know, I have done it in circumstances where you know it was against the odds. So it’s great to be able to tell people do it, because you know it can happen and you know. So I’m really grateful to you for giving me that opportunity.

Robert Hanna  48:32  

We’re honoured to have you and fill the fear and do it anyway. Right? It’s been an absolute joy. Absolutely genuinely Jeremy really enjoyed it on the legally speaking podcast, sponsored by Clio, wishing you lots of continued success. Sounds are saying that given everything you’ve already achieved, but no doubt you’ll continue to do more for now, for all of us, over and out. Thank you for listening to this week’s episode. If you like the content here, why not check out our world leading content and Collaboration Hub, the legally speaking club, over on Discord. Go to our website, www.legallyspeakingpodcast.com. There’s a link to join our community there, over and out.