Meet Sarah Tuthill-Kveton, a Partner at Chock Barhoum LLP and the Chief Legal Officer of CaseMark. She joined your host, Rob Hanna, in this episode of The Legally Speaking Podcast to share her insights as a defence attorney on how AI is making legal support more accessible by reducing lawyers’ workloads.  

So why should you be listening in?  

You can hear Rob and Sarah discussing: 

• Insurance defence  

• Her transition from public to civil defence  

• CaseMark’s founding story  

• AI’s impact on billing hours  

• Advice for aspiring insurance defence attorneys  

Transcript

Rob Hanna 00:00 

On today’s legally speaking podcast episode, I’m delighted to be joined by Sarah Tuthull-Kveton. Sarah is a law firm partner specializing in insurance defenses. She has a wealth of experience across various areas of law, and she’s also the proud Chief Legal Officer of CaseMark, a generative AI platform empowering members of the legal community to excel. So a very big, warm welcome. Sarah, 

Sarah Tuthull-Kveton 00:23 

Thanks, Rob. I’m happy to be here.  

Rob Hanna 00:26 

Oh, it’s an absolute pleasure to have you on the legally speaking podcast. But before we dive into all your amazing projects and experiences, today, we do have a customary icebreaker on the show, which is on the scale of one to 1010, being very real. What would you rate the hit TV series Suits in terms of its reality of the law? If you’ve seen it? 

Sarah Tuthull-Kveton 00:47 

Well, so I have seen it. It’s been like, 10 years, but I have seen it. Um, I was going to do zero, but I have reformatted my opinion, and I’m going to give it a point five.  

Rob Hanna 01:00 

Oh, okay, 

Sarah Tuthull-Kveton 01:01 

a point five, because it is intense, right? The legal career is intense. We’re not all that good looking. We don’t have all of the you know, the drama cases don’t get there that fast. But yeah, point five. 

Rob Hanna 01:13 

You know, point five, fair enough, justified. And with that, we’re going to move swiftly on to talk all about you. So to begin with, Sarah, would you mind telling our listeners bit about your back? About your background and career journey? 

Sarah Tuthull-Kveton 01:24 

Yeah, sure. So I’m a partner at Chock Barhoum LLP, but I started well, when I was younger, I knew I wanted to be an attorney. My dad’s a criminal defense slash family law attorney in a really small town, and so I grew up with him, and he would, he had this, like, goofy thing he did after a trial where he would run up, you know, from litigation to the house, and he’d say, Girls, Girls, what are the two sweetest words in the English language? And we were not guilty and dance. And so I knew from an early age I wanted to be in litigation because it was just super fun. I’m a competitive person. Went to law school, graduated in the height of the recession, so it was brutal to get jobs. I moved back to my general area I’m from, I sat in the courtroom and waited and waited and just hung out with my dad, hoping that I would learn something like through osmosis. And then finally, someone said, we’re down an attorney. And I said, I’m available, you know? And so I got, I ended up getting hired for public defense, and so I represented people in criminal cases for a couple years in the small town that I grew up in, and then got a another job in a bigger city where I continue to do public defense for a couple years, you know, as like, a single attorney in a town of like 6000 people, there wasn’t, there wasn’t much, you know, fun to be had, so I went to the bigger city, got another job, and did public defense there for a while, and then eventually transferred to civil litigation. And got my first job doing med mal defense, medical malpractice defense, professional liability defense, and then eventually joined Chuck barroom, where now I do a lot of personal injury insurance, defense litigation, and became a partner in 2019 that’s, that’s my journey.  

Rob Hanna 03:28 

And there’s lots that I resonate with there from my own story. So my grandfather was a lawyer, ran his own law firm, and was sort of an inspiration for a while. I wanted to get connected to the law, and I love that story about those two words, not guilty, by the way. I think that that’s, that’s lovely. And then, you know, I remember starting my career in 2008 you know, Lehman’s crash over here, and of brutal times. You know, it was a tough time, and you really had to get busy networking or finding a way to to get a job. But it’s clear you’ve been hugely successful, and obviously you’ve navigated, and you’ve built up lots of different experiences, and now you’re a partner. You know, kudos to you. And for our listeners who might be less familiar, you specialize in insurance defense. So can you tell us a little bit more about that particular area and some of the things you get up to? 

Sarah Tuthull-Kveton 04:08 

Yeah, absolutely. Um, it’s funny that your grandpa was attorney, because it’s, it’s like such a contagious profession for better or worse, right? Um, but yeah, so I insurance defense is anybody who has insurance, any company, any person, will sometimes get sued, and their insurance company has a panel of attorneys that they’ve vetted and trusted that they will assign to any case based on their specialty. So we do a lot of we do personal injury, and a lot of different companies have like, some of them do employment law, or some of them do some other types of, you know, workers compensation, and we do all personal injuries. So for example, if you were to be in a large retailer and someone were to slip and fall and you make a claim or file a lawsuit, you would see my face, you know, from the other side. Or if you were to, you know, get in a motor vehicle accident, maybe I would defend you from your insurance company. So that’s kind of the best way to describe it. And then our clients are the people, either the company or the person that’s getting sued, but the insurance company, you know, it’s putting the bill for the defense.  

Rob Hanna 05:19 

Yeah, no, thank you. I think it’s really good when you can give everyday examples so people can get grasp of the work that you specialize in. So you mentioned you’re our partner. You know you’ve done very well to reach partnership. What are some of the responsibilities you have at your current firm, operating as a partner, and maybe some of the differences in terms of when you were an attorney, to sort of getting to the top as a partner, for people again, to get a bit of an understanding. 

Sarah Tuthull-Kveton 05:42 

So our firm, when I started, had five attorneys, and now we have closer to 30, and so there’s been a ton of growth. So I started, I mean, I feel like, from the moment I started at Chock Barhoum, I knew I was going to be a partner, it just felt like, you know, the right place, it was the right vibe. It wasn’t kind of this stuffy old law firm vibe. It was young, vibrant, progressive, and then we just continued to grow. So I did everything, even from an associate, from like, picking out what courts to use on the front desk, to hiring people, to firing people. You know, pretty early on I was kind of involved, and I think so it was just an easy transition to be a partner. I’d say a partner. I mean, you do sort of the same things as the other attorneys. You’re just moving probably at a faster speed. It’s like someone gave the example. If you’re on your first bike ride, it’s hard. If you’re on your 500th bike ride, it’s hard, but you’re moving faster. And so I think that’s kind of the thing. Is you just, I have more of a management role with pushing the cases forward, where the associates are maybe drafting the motion, I’m reviewing it, giving some feedback, doing the trial portions. 

Rob Hanna 06:57 

Yeah, no. And I think you give some really good examples of that. And, yeah, like you say, as you get more and more senior within a firm, there are still elements of the role that you know will will still be true to what you’re you’re used to. So appreciate you giving that sort of context. Okay, I’m sat here in the UK. You’re over there in America. You know the American legal system differs from the one over here in England. So you know, what is public defender? Tell us a little bit more.

Sarah Tuthull-Kveton 07:23 

Sure. So the United States Constitution says that every single person is entitled to a defense, and what that really means is, if you don’t have if you are under a certain threshold, economically, the state will appoint one for you. Or if you’re in custody, you get one automatically. So it’s a either a consortium or a group of people, either independent or owned by this or operated by the state, that provide defense services for people that need them. 

Rob Hanna 07:54 

I love that concise to the point and helpful. Thank you. You mentioned earlier on. You know your career started as public defender in the courtroom, then sort of transitioning to civil defense. So what inspired your transition, or was it just sort of a natural progression for you? 

Sarah Tuthull-Kveton 08:10 

It’s definitely not always a natural progression to go from criminal to civil law, like it takes a lot of work to make that jump, but it’s almost it’s so incredibly difficult to get trial experience these days, especially in the United States, it could take several years to get to trial in a civil case, and so it kind of is like, you know, drinking out of a fire hose. When you’re a public defender, you get all of this experience all at once. I was in trial, you know, monthly. I had my second trial, or my first trial on my second day of work as a public defender. Can you imagine how wildly successful that was, but luckily, it was low stakes, but yeah, so you just get a lot of experience and and, you know, there’s nothing like knowing what it feels like to stand in front of a jury, to stand in front of a judge, know the process, know how to where, you know, build that confidence. So I got to do that for several years, try a ton of cases, and then transfer that over to the civil world, where I felt comfortable in the courtroom. I felt comfortable taking depositions. I felt comfortable going head to head with people, which, you know, takes some time to learn. So that transition, although it is completely different, the litigation skills are still similar, 

Rob Hanna 09:26 

Yeah. So sort of fundamental, you know, similar, transferable, but you really still need to know your craft, and there is a lot of hard work, like you say, that goes into it. So again, appreciate you. You sharing that you’ve got varied experience, lots of good experience. You know, you’ve mentioned sort of motor vehicle collisions, professional malpractice, personal injury, contract disputes, you name it, basically, medical malpractice. Has there been? And it’s probably quite a tough question. One memorable case that you’ve worked on that you can share with us, or if you can’t share specifically, maybe you could use. Is a version of to give us an idea, yes. 

Sarah Tuthull-Kveton 10:02 

I mean, I definitely have a lot of memorable criminal cases, but that was way quite a while ago. I’d say that my favorite, like, because we do, you know, personal injury, my favorite is when you kind of pop someone on surveillance, right? So like, oh gosh, I can’t even walk I can’t hold groceries, I can’t do anything, and you get them like doing cartwheels or whatever it is, or find something that contradicts what they says they say. And that’s kind of my favorite part. But I would say one of my favorite courtroom moments was a jury trial I had where a woman said that her neck, she had an unstable spine and could become paralyzed at any minute, and that she needed millions of dollars for this, and it was a minor fender bender, right? There’s relatively no damage to either vehicle. And the jury came back after the trial and was reading their verdict, and the judge says, go back in there. Don’t write anything on the form. And they had written on the form, can we award the defendant something? Because they thought that the claim was so terrible that she should get nothing and the defendant should be paid. And of course, that’s not how it works in the American judicial system and personal injury. But that was really fun. Another really good one is where I found some really good Facebook content. Social media is like just a gold mine, as you can imagine. And so there was a woman who claimed she was doing really great, had no prior back injuries up until the day of this fall at a store. And I found that she had fallen four days earlier raking leaves, and she had posted about it on our social media. And so I got to post that up in front of the jury, and we got an audible Wow from like, one of the jurors, and then I got to read it to her, and I said, you know, Miss so and so here’s, you know, what you said about you were following raking leaves. And then she had and then I got to read the emojis out loud too, which is always really funny. Sad face emoji, sad face emoji, sad face emoji, well, I didn’t go the doctor, so it must have not have been that big of a deal. Well, that’s not what she told Susan, is it? Let’s read that, you know. So that was, those moments are pretty fun, but, you know, there is a lot of drama. There’s a lot of things that are boring too, but litigation is definitely where most of the actions at. Yeah, absolutely. 

Rob Hanna 12:30 

And two great examples, and a very good point about social media as well. You know, you’ve got to be conscious. What are you putting out there? Because it’s your reputation at the end of the day. Okay, talking reputation, you’ve been described as having a commanding yet approachable presence in the courtroom. So how do you strike the balance between being tough and also approachable whilst representing your clients? 

Sarah Tuthull-Kveton 12:56 

You know it’s it’s easier than you would think, and it’s not that deep. So I usually tell the jury, hey, it’s my job to advocate on behalf of my clients. So sometimes I’m going to be harsh. And they get that right, they understand that. And then second, I think a lot of attorneys just forget to be normal people. So if the witness is crying, get them a tissue. You know, if the witness can’t find an exhibit. Help them find it like it’s, you know, thank people for their time. It’s not really like that profound. You just be a normal human person that’s gracious. And also, you know, be be an advocate for your client. I think that’s probably the easiest way. 

Rob Hanna 13:39 

Yeah, and I mean, everyone who listens to show be sick and tired of me saying this, but it’s about being the human lawyer. We’re no longer in this eight you know, B2B, B2C. We’re in this H2H, human to human connection. So whatever it is you’re in, in the world or environment you are, the more human you can be, the more relatable as you, as you rightly. So. I think the far better you conduct yourself, and far better the outcomes will be. So thank you for for sharing that let’s talk about gig workers, then, because you’re known for defending independent contractors in the gig economy. What are gig workers? And what type of work have you been involved with?  

Sarah Tuthull-Kveton 14:11 

Yeah, so gig workers, what I’ve been involved with the most would be the rideshare drivers. So anyone who utilizes a ride share application to provide services to writers, or, for example, food delivery to so I’ve done that a ton represented rideshare drivers who’ve gotten an accident, defended them. And then also, too is there’s like home rentals that they people put their homes on, that you can rent. I’ve represented the homeowners under those situations too. So anybody who’s kind of contracting with sort of a tech company to share their services or their home, that’s who I’ve been representing.  

Rob Hanna 14:53 

Yeah, no, thank you for that. And it’s great work you’ve done, and it’s varied work as well. So I’d encourage people to go and actually look a little bit more. About some of the great work you’ve picked up. Okay, let’s move on to talk about your clo role, because you are the chief legal officer of CaseMark. For those that might be less familiar, what is CaseMark? 

Sarah Tuthull-Kveton 15:10 

CaseMark is a AI service that summarizes documents in the legal field all the way from intake to appeal. And so it’s sort of your one stop shop for your litigation case during the course of of the case? Yeah, 

Rob Hanna 15:25 

I love that. And I was at an event recently with with Clio, who sponsor our show, obviously the world’s largest legal tech company, cloud based. And they were the jack Newton CEO was talking about AI, and he was saying AI is a force multiplier when it comes to legal work, and I thought that’s such a great way, yeah, as the actual, you know, actually AI for good, and actually how it can really enable you and increase productivity, and, you know, transform and allow people to be even more client centered to deliver their service. So Okay, let’s talk about CaseMark’s mission then so is to help legal professionals navigate these uncertain times around generative AI by delivering relevant, cost, effective and secure tools. Sounds good, but how the heck are you going about achieving that mission? 

Sarah Tuthull-Kveton 16:11 

So I think we’re developing products. So and the for example, you have deposition summaries, we are launching medcrons in kind of the beta testing. But I think one of the things that’s been really challenging is that your no attorney is going to buy, necessarily a deposition summary, or an insurance company that’s going to be, you know, what they could pay an attorney for. So there has to be sort of a price point which makes it you get the most bang for your buck. So there. So for example, deposition summaries are $25 all day long. No brainer. If you can get a deposition summary for $25 why wouldn’t you do it to exponentially increase your ability to litigate that case? We’re also, you know, working on things. So when you get the case in, how can that make your life easier? What’s the summary that you need to figure out? What’s your litigation plan? What needs to be done on this case when you’re doing the med pron, are there documents that are missing? Are there things that need to be highlighted that are relevant to your injury? So it’s taking all that data, pulling it out so that you can do your job as an attorney, more efficiently and effectively.  

Rob Hanna 17:22 

Yeah, and that’s what we’re looking for. You know, the more that we can increase efficiency, you know, productivity through Tech for Good, then the better. Because I think that can help with reducing workloads, you know, stress at work, and freeing up maybe a little bit more time so you can do some of the things that you love. I think it’s really great. And I again, encourage people to go and look more about CaseMark, which, interestingly, was actually a family founded organization. So I believe that it was founded by Scott, your husband, after witnessing quite a lot of inefficiency in trial attorney work. So you know how you touched on it there. But let’s just go a bit deeper and maybe give a chance to give your husband some flowers here, in terms of, you know, how that’s assisted as an attorney CaseMark particularly?

Sarah Tuthull-Kveton 18:04 

Yeah, so my husband’s a serial entrepreneur. He’s done, he’s, you know, done a lot of different things. And AI came out, and he was just really fascinated by how it could transform our society, our workforce, you know, our world. And so we started talking about the legal world, and some of the things, you know, what is it that you do? What are the documents you get? What could it help summarize? And I said, you know, we do deposition summaries after every depot. We do medcrons And in almost every case. And so if you could streamline those systems, that would be amazing. And he was like, I think I could do that. And I was like, Really, so, and then it turns out he can. And so it’s a really cool product. And, you know, got to tinker with it, work on stuff that was important to me, to refine the product. So it’s just a really cool thing. And, you know, he’s done a lot of companies, and this is, or run a lot of companies started live, and this is one that I finally, like truly understand, just because it’s right in my wheelhouse. 

Rob Hanna 19:09 

Yeah, and it could improve your practice. You know, it’s a genuine benefit. Again, Tech for Good. And again, back to the conference in London, which Clio hosted. I had the pleasure of being MC for the level of investment and clio’s $900 million raise is really good for legal tech generally, because it’s only going to pour in more and more investment and more and more interest. And I think this year alone, 2024 is going to be one of the largest in terms of investments for the legal tech industry. So products like CaseMark and so many others out there doing great things. I just think there’s a really exciting future, and there’s real appetite, and it shows that there is a blueprint for, you know, these organizations do really, really well whilst really servicing the legal industry, which is, which is exciting to me as someone who’s a very passionate tech person. But with tech comes consideration. And so one thing we need to think about is the ethical guidelines, which. Am putting your sort of legal hat on here as well? I’m sure you’ve sort of thought about this at great length, given the AI boom. But do you think kind of, what ethical guidelines do you think need to be established as generative AI becomes even more kind of integrated into the league profession? 

Sarah Tuthull-Kveton 20:15 

Yeah. I mean, that’s a great question, Rob, and I think it’s definitely one that we have to think about. But I think that the ethical guidelines in most states are already present to kind of absorb this structure, because they’ve sort of been built over time to withstand different changes. So for example, competency is one of its rule, 1.1 you know, in the United States. And I think that competency people think, Okay, well, you need to, like, know the laws and to represent your clients. But competency also plays into technology, right? So do you have Clio? Do you have a system that is managing the documents that you have that secure, like Clio, and then with AI? Do you have, are you using AI in a way that’s going to help your clients. And actually, the New York bar organized a task force in 2024 in April and 2024 and they actually put out a quote that a refusal to use technology that makes legal work more accurate and efficient can be considered a refusal to provide competent legal services. So actually, if you are not using AI, if you are not learning about the process, you know, similar to, you know, storing your data securely on the cloud through something like Clio, you are not doing what you can be doing for your clients. 

Rob Hanna 21:35 

Yeah, and we want to be more and more client centered. And so with the, you know, the rise of even more, this AI revolution. You know, this is, this is important stuff. And I think you know, you need to be on the on the ship, because it’s once it’s left the harbor, which it has already it’s gonna be very hard to keep catching up. So it’s really, really important that hopefully the education you get from this show you’re gonna do some further research and maybe look to make some informed decisions. Another important discussion with the AI revolution, of course, is access to justice. So do you believe AI can help bridge the gap when it comes to access to legal services for particularly underrepresented communities? What are your thoughts on that? 

Sarah Tuthull-Kveton 22:15 

Yeah, so I think, definitely, I think a pro se plaintiff, you know, that’s someone that doesn’t have an attorney can use AI services to make their life probably a lot easier, and understand the materials faster than they would otherwise. But mostly as far as like the underrepresented community the if you think there’s legal aid in the United States, which a lot of times, goes towards people with landlord tenant issues, or, for example, family law matters that would qualify for legal aid. And if you can summarize that information, settle the cases or go to trial and take on more clients by using this technology, then absolutely, because most of it is the time that it takes to get these cases from beginning and end, and if you can shortchange that and provide people with competent legal services, more people get services.  

Rob Hanna 23:06 

Yeah, and we’re here for that, and I think we absolutely support that here on the legally speaking podcast, billing another important aspect of the role with the ability then to automate certain tasks. How might generative AI impact traditional billing models for law firms, especially in terms of the good old billable hour. 

Sarah Tuthull-Kveton 23:27 

Well, so, I mean, this is like, attorney’s biggest fear, right? Oh my gosh, you’re taking away my work. You’re this is not going to be great. But I think we also have to remember is that in the recession that completely peeled off a whole series of attorneys. And the actual amount of people that are graduating from law school in 2023 was down 20% so the amount of lawyers out there is going down, and the work is going up. And I think we also see this with the baby boomers who are retiring. They’re just there’s kind of this gap of services to be provided. So most insurance defense attorneys that I know are busier than they’ve ever been, and then it’s also hard to find attorneys to hire to do the work. And so then we have this problem that’s called billable hours on the shelf. You know, if you’ve ever heard of it, it’s work that could be done, work that could be built, but isn’t getting done to the fullest extent because you don’t have the manpower or the to do the job. And so I think that as the AI increases, plaintiffs firms are only going to get more cases. They’re going to move forward quickly, and then defense is going to be absolutely inundated, and so you’re not as if you’re not using these skills, even though maybe it’ll take less time to bill for a med prom than it would otherwise, then you’re going to be falling behind, but you’re still going to you’re going to have an increased volume, you’re going to be able to take on more cases, and you’re still going to be. Billing the same amount, and then also, kind of, there’s going to be a point in time where companies are going to require the use of this. So if you don’t figure out a way to effectively incorporate it into your practice, your clients are going to remove you from the panel. But, I mean, there’s always going to be more available time. You always have to review a motion, you always have to check the citations, you always have to provide analysis as to what the case is worth, what potential jury verdicts are. You know, there’s certain human things that that you can’t get from AI that an attorney is still going to have to provide. So it’s not going to take our jobs. It’s just going to make us more efficient and smarter. And, you know, we can use less experienced attorneys who can find the answer faster with AI than they used to, and they’re going to also have higher job satisfaction and stick around your firm. So that’s something that’s interesting too. Yeah, 

Rob Hanna 26:00 

Yeah, it’s really important, isn’t it, because that that can, like you say, improve overall job satisfaction, well being at work, increase retention levels. You know, as someone who owns a legal headhunting recruiting business over here, it’s expensive if you get recruiting wrong, so if you make sure your people are happy. And you know, a lot of people now are expecting tech, you know, systems like state of the art systems to be incorporated for the all the reasons that you’ve just said, Okay, let’s talk about your your partnership with Clio. Obviously, we’re fans of Clio. They sponsor their partners with here, but what do you hope to get, particularly with CaseMark, in terms of that partnership with Clio for yourselves? 

Sarah Tuthull-Kveton 26:38 

Well, I mean, I know they’re a sponsor, but I can’t say enough good things about Clio, because our firm uses them, and it’s such an efficient system, right? You have all your document management. It can generate documents for you, just the shells of you know, the shells of them. You can do your billing, your intake, you know, those types of things. And I think the partnership with casemart is such a perfect partnership to have with Clio, because like Clio, it’s from the beginning to your of your case, from intake to appeal. And so when you have the initial documents that come in that you store on Clio, you can take those documents, put them in the CaseMark, we’ll summarize them, and then save it back into Clio. So you’ll have this system that works flawlessly to provide the documents that maybe you were already kind of generating by a legal assistant or someone that wasn’t isn’t able to build that time that’s going right into your system. And then also, Clio is just, you know, a super secure site that’s amazing. And so it kind of shows how great casemark is doing to also be secure, to be a trusted partner with Clio. And so CaseMark is really just an easy button within your Clio system that works great.  

Rob Hanna 27:53 

And that’s what we like, simplicity, right? The easier it is, the more adoption and the less sort of fear or uncertainty or worry about using technology. So I love that kind of angle of how it is just click of a button. Okay, before we wrap up, Sarah really enjoyed learning more about your career and journey and different experiences. What would be your one piece of advice for next generation attorneys, lawyers thinking about pursuing a career in insurance defense? 

Sarah Tuthull-Kveton 28:17 

I’m sure you get this live like people say, Don’t do it or whatever it is, but I would say that, I mean, it is a tough profession of what you’re getting into, but I think that there’s a unique opportunity for new attorneys that has never been there before, like the days of turning in a memo that a partner completely marks up and is just, you know, thinks that you’re the Biggest moron in the world are kind of over because you can take AI and find what you’re looking for in a much easier way. You’ll know what needs to be picked out of those documents by using AI. It’s sort of training you as a new attorney by the systems that have been created, so you’re not then pulling out all the wrong things from a document, you know what’s important, and then you can use that as you you know, gain speed as an attorney. So when people feel like they’re doing a better job, people feel like they’re on the right track and that they’re successful, they’re going to be more successful. And so I think that this is such a good opportunity to allow new attorneys to get up to speed faster in a world that’s actually really difficult. I mean, you know this Rob like we’re learning every single day, and in the legal field, like you learn something new constantly. And so to have be a new attorney, it’s kind of intimidating. But these, these options are phenomenal to get, to get them in a place where they feel great about their job. 

Rob Hanna 29:47 

I love that, and so many great nuggets of wisdom are such a great growth mindset you have as well in terms of seeing this as a real big opportunity. Okay, if our listeners want to follow you or learn more about your career, or indeed, CaseMark, where can they. Find out more, feel free to share any websites, any social media handles. We’ll also make sure we share them with this episode for you too. Yeah, absolutely. 

Sarah Tuthull-Kveton 30:06 

You can go to casemark.com or follow casemark on LinkedIn, where they post a lot of different articles and things to get up to speed on. And you can also integrate with Clio by going to the Clio partner page and downloading the CaseMark from Clio,  

Rob Hanna 30:24 

There you go. Simple. Well, thank you so much, Sarah, it’s been an absolute pleasure having you on the legally speaking podcast today from all of us on the show, wishing you lots of continued success with your career and in the future entrepreneurial pursuits. But for now, over and out, thank you, Rob.