Have you ever wondered what the role of a Managing Partner is like? Then tune into this episode with Michael A. Gerstenzang, the Managing Partner at Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton LLP. Hosted by Rob Hanna, this conversation covers everything from Michael’s early career to the role of listening in a Managing Partner’s day-to-day activities.  

So why should you be listening in?  

You can hear Rob and Michael discussing: 

• The impact of clerkships on your career  

• Life as a Managing Partner 

• Promoting collaboration in law  

• The future of AI in law 

• How to balance your firm and clients’ needs  

Transcript

Rob Hanna 00:00 

On today’s episode of the legally speaking podcast, I’m absolutely delighted to be joined by Michael Gerstenzang. Michael attended Georgetown University School of Foreign Service and completed his JD at Columbia Law School. He joined Cleary Gottlieb Steen and Hamilton in 1992 and was made partner in 1999. In 2017 Michael was elected Managing Partner described by chambers global 2018 as a very strategic thinker who can navigate difficult issues and bring a lot of experience to the table. Michael focuses on private investment funds, private equity funds, infrastructure funds and different types of alternative investment vehicles. He also has experience advising investment firms and founders on succession and management reorganisation issues. Michael named listener in chief, is dedicated to meeting the needs of clients and strengthening the firm’s position as a global leader in providing innovative, pragmatic advice in complex situations. So a very big, warm welcome Michael. 

Michael Gerstenzang 01:01 

Rob, thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here. 

Rob Hanna 01:02 

Oh, it’s an absolute honor to have you on the show. And before we dive into all your amazing projects and experiences, today, we do have a customary icebreaker question here on the legally speaking podcast, which is on the scale of 1 to 10, 10 being very real, what would you rate the hit TV series Suits in terms of its reality of the law, if you’ve seen it? 

Michael Gerstenzang 01:24 

Okay, well, I’m a little bit ashamed to say that I haven’t seen it, but my impression is that it is much more interesting than the average day of a lawyer at any big law firm. My embarrassment at not having seen Suits is really twofold. One, I watch a lot of TV, and most of it is pretty low brow, and I think suits should definitely be on my watch list, and I got to remedy that. The second is, there’s actually, at least in the lore of our firm, a pretty strong connection between the show Suits and Cleary Gottlieb. So a long time Cleary partner, who now a federal judge in New York, is a fellow named Louis Lyman. His brother is Doug Lyman, who is one of the forces behind the show Suits, as well as a number of other TV shows and movies, and for those who watch the show suits, you’ll know that one of the lead characters in the show is called Lewis Litt, which people around here like to think maybe is a connection to our former colleague, Louis Lyman. I don’t know if that’s true or not, but it makes it even worse that I haven’t seen the show. 

Rob Hanna 02:41 

Well, you say worse? I think that’s one of the most interesting answers we’ve ever had for someone who’s actually never seen it. So with that, we’re going to give it a zero and move swiftly on to talk all about you. Michael, so would you mind by kicking off telling our listeners a bit about your background and career journey? 

Michael Gerstenzang 02:58 

Sure. So I grew up in Albany, New York, small city. My mom taught third grade. My stepfather with whom I grew up, repaired trucks, heavy duty trucks for a living. It was a very middle class upbringing. Had no involvement in big law, in finance, really, in anything of that sort, but I went to college at Georgetown University in Washington, went to law school at Columbia Law School in New York, and through those experiences, started thinking about the world in broader terms, and became attracted to the idea of being a lawyer, Mostly because it felt like a profession where you got to do lots of different things, and it combined both a an academic orientation and a business orientation, and those two things appealed to me. So I graduated from Columbia Law School. I had two clerkships. The first was for a judge on the Second Circuit Court of Appeals here in New York. That was 18 months. And then I went abroad and lived in The Hague and the Netherlands and clerked for a judge on the Iran US Claims Tribunal. And did that for a little over a year. And then came back to New York and joined Cleary Gottlieb after these clerkships and my experience at Cleary has been absolutely tremendous. I’ve been at the firm for about 34 years. It’s been a fascinating journey through lots of different client work and different roles at the firm, and I’m more than happy to talk to you about that today.  

Rob Hanna 04:38 

Yeah. I mean, just just just looking at how we’re both dressed today. I’m sure it was suit and tie and jacket and not open collar back then. And, you know, no AI, and all of these things like, it’s, it’s, you know, the only constant of business has changed. But I would like to get back to the clerkships, if I may, because, you know, they’re super impressive, and I always think experiences you get early on in your career really help shape and mold how you go on to the future. So what. Did you particularly learn that you found useful in those particular clerkships?  

Michael Gerstenzang 05:04 

Yeah, I found both of the clerkships incredibly interesting and valuable. And that’s for somebody who pretty much knew I did not want to do litigation in my practice, and so it was a little bit of an odd choice, perhaps, for somebody who’s more interested in corporate to not just do one clerkship, but but two. But at the time and looking back, I felt like I learned a tremendous amount about the law. I learned a tremendous amount about thinking analytically and writing in a very clear and crisp and concise way. So I got a tremendous amount from both of them, and one of the lessons that since carried with me is, of course, the clerkship is very much about a close relationship with the judge. And I was incredibly fortunate to work for two terrific judges who really took time and interest in mentoring their clerks, but he was also about learning and developing relationships with my co clerks. And looking back on it, I feel like I often learned just as much from my co clerks, even though we were peers within the chambers, as I did from the judges. I think that’s an important life lesson. There are lots of people you can learn from. It’s not always the person who’s more senior than you. It can be the person who is your peer or somebody who’s junior to you. But the clerkships were great. The second one at the Iran US Claims Tribunal was also my first opportunity to live abroad, to live outside the United States, and that was a tremendous experience, both professionally and personally, and it kind of opened my eyes to kind of internationalism that’s been an important part of my my career and my life since then, and made me interested in doing another stint abroad, which I ended up doing with Cleary a few years after that. So I think regardless of what you think your long term professional interests are, it’s certainly worth considering a clerkship. 

Rob Hanna 07:10 

Yeah, and some great nuggets in there as well. And I always advise people to get out of their comfort zone. The comfort zone is great, great, but nothing ever grows there. You went abroad, you got new experiences, you acquired things, and then, you know, I was talking about the importance of having a 360 mentorship, you know, board of directors, people beneath you, around you, to decide if you that can learn and be a sponge. So, yeah, really good wisdom shared there. Thank you. So let’s get to Cleary. Then 1992 comes along. You join the firm. You specialize in private equity, private funds sees investment joint ventures. There’s not a lot you haven’t done in this sort of space in terms of general partner management company arrangements. So would you mind for people less familiar? We’ve got people from all different directions, in terms of interest in the law, who listen to the show explaining a little bit more about the areas you cover and the work that you do? 

Michael Gerstenzang 07:52 

Yeah, I’d be happy to. And I feel really fortunate to have come into private equity work, really, in the earliest days of that industry, and it’s given me a kind of front row seat, and often involved directly in work and the development of the private equity business that, frankly, nobody could have imagined in 1992 and 1993 including working on the very first fund that TPG raised in 1993 and and working with them and continuing to work with them now over several decades. But private equity firms essentially raised money, mostly from institutional investors, from endowments and pension funds and sovereign wealth funds and the like, and then invest that money. Could be buying a company, could be investing in other kinds of assets with the goal of increasing the value of the company, improving their operations, helping guide them strategically, and then selling the assets some years later and returning the profits to their investors, which people call limited partners. It’s a very entrepreneurial business, a very dynamic business, and has become an important part of the commercial landscape on a global basis because of the size of private equity firms and alternative asset managers more generally, in the role that they play in in MA and in capital markets and so on.  

Rob Hanna 09:31 

Yeah. And I mean, you touched on it before, but maybe just want to put you on the spot a little bit, because you have represented some of the biggest funds in the world, from Blackstone to KKR. You mentioned the TPG Capital Management one in 1993 Is there a particular one that’s been most memorable for you that you’d like to share with us, or tell us a little bit more about that TPG one, if that was?

Michael Gerstenzang 09:52 

You know, when I think about the experiences I’ve had working for clients, and again, I feel incredibly fortunate to have gotten involved. This work in the earliest days and for the client relationships that I’ve had, that some of the most memorable client work really was because of developments either in the private equity business or in the world that forced both investors and private equity firms to adapt. And so, you know, part of that was a dramatic increase in the size of private equity funds. You know, from funds in the mid 90s, it would be a big fund if you had a billion or a billion and a half dollars. And just, you know, five or six years later, it was 10 and 12 and $14 billion and and that changes the way the funds get raised, and the nature of the relationship with investors. And you had the really enormous LBOs 30, $40 billion LBOs in 2005 2008 and that led to other changes in the way that deals were structured and money was raised for those deals, co investment opportunities for limited partners, which has now become a very common thing, but was new at the time the global financial crisis, and forcing both private equity firms and limited partners to rethink their relationships and how the money was being deployed in what pace and so on, and the changes just continue. We’ve, at our firm, had an important role on succession issues as the founding generation of large private equity firms begin to move off stage and are succeeded by the next generation dealing with liquidity issues, both for private equity firms themselves, many of which have gone public, or for portfolio companies. So it’s been a journey marked by change and adapt, adaptability and by entrepreneurship. Some of the most memorable moments, though, for me, really are about the teams and working with the people, the people at the clients and the Cleary Gottlieb people, and really rallying around and getting smart, dedicated, hardworking people to focus on complicated problems and come up with novel solutions. And there’s no better feeling than that, you know, sitting around a room and brainstorming about things and coming up with an answer which wasn’t immediately apparent, and then figuring out how you’re going to implement that answer, those moments are memorable and deeply satisfying, both intellectually and personally. So as I said, I feel incredibly fortunate and also very lucky. And I think that’s worth underscoring, because I think it’s all together too easy for successful people to forget the role that luck has played in their success. I feel incredibly lucky to have gotten involved in the private equity industry in its earliest days and to develop long term relationships, and I feel incredibly lucky for the people I’ve gotten to work with at Cleary Gottlieb along this journey. 

Rob Hanna 13:14 

Yeah, and I couldn’t love that answer more. I was just nodding away listening to everything there. And, you know, I was always told we is greater than me, and absolutely, if you can build these teams and you can strive for great things together, and you know, you’re a part of that as a leader, I think there’s nothing more intrinsically valuable than seeing that. And as you say, you know, and I can see how you’ve been so successful in your career with just the mindset and the way that you’re coming across today. Because you talk about entrepreneurialism, you talk about adaptability, these are things you have to really focus on as we particularly move in this, you know, once in a species, not once in a revolution, opportunity within the AI world that we are. So, you know, really enjoying learning about the sort of trajectory and the way that you’ve sort of seen your career go with that you touched on before that you’d had some international experiences. I’d just like to take you back to the time in Brussels, because you spent two years in your Brussels office, I think between 1994 and 1996 so what did you most enjoy about your time abroad, and how did that help you in terms of shaping you as a global lawyer, coming back to the US. 

Michael Gerstenzang 14:13 

I think there were a couple of things that really stuck with me from that time. One is the the people that I got to work with in our Brussels office, which is an incredibly International, diverse office, and that’s been true for decades. We had lawyers from all over Europe, and at that time, there was, it was the early days of the post Soviet era in Eastern Europe. And so we had young lawyers from Poland, from Hungary, from Romania working with us in our office for a year or two, and just being exposed to these really bright, energetic people who came from a completely different background than me, of different cultural background, a different educational background, and a learning. Right from and with them was incredibly enriching. I think the work that I was doing at that time, and a lot of it was influenced by the privatizations that were going on in Eastern Europe at the time. That was also really interesting. It was a moment of adaptation for those businesses, for those countries, for the legal systems. And I think living through a time of adaptation was very valuable for me, and it instilled in me excitement, actually, about adaptation that as carried with me to today. And Rob You mentioned generative AI, we’re very focused on that here at the firm, and we’re embracing it in a very positive way. I was did a presentation at one of our partner meetings recently and put up a quote that was, you know, when the winds of change start to blow, some people build walls and some people build windmills, and we’re a firm that’s building windmills. And I think I have that feeling and optimism about change because of my experience in Brussels and because of my experience in the private equity industry, I think change is a very can be a very positive thing if you embrace it with a positive spirit.  

Rob Hanna 16:25 

Yeah, and it’s very clear you have a growth mindset, you know, you see things as opportunity rather than necessarily a chat. Well, of course, there is the challenge that goes with, you know, adopting new technology, whatever it may be, but you see where the puck is going. And I talk a lot about the Wayne Gretzky coach, one of my favorite he doesn’t skate to where the puck is going. It goes to where it’s going. Goes to where it’s going going, right? And I think it’s so true. And I love the fact that, you know, you use that windmill analogy. So let’s talk about where you are today. You know, in 2017 you were elected managing partner. You know, could you explain to us, you know, what a typical day looks like as a managing partner at one of the world’s most prestigious law firms? And what responsibilities do you have?   

Michael Gerstenzang 17:01 

Well, one of the great things about this job, and to be clear, it is a great job. I love being the managing partner of this firm. And one of the reasons is there is no typical day. It is a very broad remit. So I think about my role in having different categories. There’s the strategy piece of it. I’m thinking all the time about what our near term, medium term, long term strategy as a firm, there’s the communication piece of it, and I think that’s critically important. I spent a lot of time talking with our people, partners, other lawyers at the firm, members of our professional staff, just hearing from them about what’s going on in in their professional lives and also in their personal lives, just getting a feeling for the firm as a whole. So, so that’s a that’s an important aspect of it, and then there’s kind of communication outward, you know, I think in some early interviews in my time as Managing Partner, I described myself as listener in chief and and I continue to think of that as being an important part of the role. But there’s also the part of the role of taking what you’ve heard, whether that’s from clients or from our people, and then sharing that more broadly around the firm, so that everybody can benefit from what I’ve heard in my various conversations and travels around the world. That that communication, I think, is critically important and has become more important in the kind of post covid hybrid world. 

Rob Hanna 18:38 

Yeah, and I love that you talk about communication. I think it’s one of the number one reasons why a lot of businesses fail. A lot of client relationships fail through poor or lack of communication. I love that you double down on that, and then you also do the most important part of communication, in my view, which is that listening piece and really listening deeply to what people are communicating to you and actually hearing them. And then you’ve added the human element of actually understanding people have lives outside of work. You know, maybe there is something going on in their personal world. How can we help support you? How can we meet you? Because we’re no longer in this B2B, B2C. We’re in this H2H, this human to human world of the world of work. And I think the more that leaders understand that, such as yourself, that are doing fabulous job, the more they’ll bring out the best in their their people. So let’s go to doubling down a little bit deeper, if I may. When you were elected Managing Partner, you explained you’re focusing on, I think, I quote, meeting the needs of clients and strengthening the firm’s position as a global leader in providing innovative, pragmatic advice in complex situations. You’ve touched on this throughout the conversation, but let’s get into it. How are you really, truly, deeply achieving this? 

Michael Gerstenzang 19:39 

Yeah, I would say there are a few core elements of that. And I was glad to hear that quote, because while something I said in 2017 and frankly, I’d kind of forgotten about it, it completely resonated with me today. I could have given you that quote today would have captured the way I think about our firm. Term and the opportunities for us, number one, be client centric, focus on what our clients need and where their business is going. This is the Wayne Gretzky point. It’s important to understand a client’s business today, but a lot of my time talking with clients is asking them where they think their business is going in the next five and 10 years, as a matter of geographic focus or product focus or business strategy, because we want to be prepared not just to do a great job for them today, but to do a great job for them five years and 10 years from now. So being client centric is critically important. The second part is being focused on talent and people within our organization. Law firms are talent businesses, right? We don’t have factories or warehouses. We don’t we don’t have anything that we are, quote, selling, other than the talents and experience and judgment of our people and making sure that we’re an organization that attracts talented people and develops their talents and retains them over the long time, over the long term. That is kind of the core of our strategy as it relates to delivering excellent client service. And I would say the third part of it is innovation. And you know, when I talk to senior lawyers, whether it’s at our firm or at other firms or in House lawyers, I will often hear from them, Oh, my goodness, like things are changing so much and so rapidly in the last few years. And you know that is true to a degree. But when I step back and think about the industry big law over the last 34 years, and I use that because that’s when I joined Cleary Gottlieb. But last 34 years, big law has changed very little. It’s changed less than the industries of really, any of the clients that I can think of, and not just over the last 34 years, but over the last 10 years, it’s changed less than just about any other industry that I can think of. And so in many ways, we are due overdue for significant change, and now we’re in the early days of significant change. I think that’s exciting. I think we should embrace that. I think it’s going to be good for law firms and for clients to have this evolution. But I’m not somebody who kind of wrings their hands about change. In fact, if anything, the fact that we’ve changed so little over a 30 year period is more worrisome than how much we’re going to change over the next five and 10 years.  

Rob Hanna 22:40 

Yeah, and again, I just love your forward thinking and optimism. I mean, we’re still talking about the billable hour, so, you know, change definitely still needs to and that’s not a conversation for today. But I love that you talked about being client centered. And I would also highlight Jack Newton, CEO of Clio, who sponsor our show. He wrote a fantastic book called the client centered law firm. I’d really encourage people to go and pick up a copy of that. And you’re right. You know, with law firms, your product is the people you know, the people that you can bring in, the people you can upskill, develop, motivate, empower, inspire, you know, to give the best service to clients. It’s a win, win all round. So really like how you you shared that. So again, I’m going to quote you again. Michael, you stated, We believe our model and values, our structure, governance, the way we do business and work together, have fostered a culture of collegiality, a spirit of innovation and resilience that have been consistent throughout cleary’s history. Very powerful quote. So, how does Cleary really ensure and encourage collaboration and teamwork amongst its lawyers, given the fact the size and scale of the actual firm? 

Michael Gerstenzang 23:41 

Yeah, look, I spend a lot of time, and we as a firm, spend a lot of time talking about our culture and our values. Now, I think most law firms and most organizations will articulate the importance of their culture for us, what has made the real difference is the continuous articulation and embracing the core elements of our culture and doing it in a very specific and detailed way. So I have a slide that I use when I do town halls with our people, when I talk to our partners, and it’s it’s nine words that attempt to summarize our culture, the key attributes of our culture. Now, of course, our organization is much too textured and too large, and it would be kind of foolish for me to think nine words can capture everything, and they don’t. But the reason I use that slide is because I think it’s important to talk in very specific ways about your cultural attributes, because otherwise you default into these generalities that don’t really convey what you’re about as an organization, and some of those values. Use and cultural attributes are the ones that were in that quote that you read. It is about collaboration. It is about internationalism. It’s about mutual respect. It’s about striving for excellence. But I think, and this is true for us, but I think is generally true. It’s important to push the conversation about culture beyond the kind of feel good elements of a culture, right? If, if your culture kind of comes across as mom and apple pie, well, maybe everybody feels good about that, but it doesn’t really drive behavior in the way that you want it to. So when I talk about our culture, and included on this slide of nine key attributes are things like entrepreneurship and accountability and adaptability and innovation, things that, frankly, are hard. You know, it’s uncomfortable to be adaptable, it’s uncomfortable to be accountable, but those are just as much part of our culture as things that are a little softer, mutual respect and collaboration, they’re all important. But I think if you really value your culture, you’ve got to be you’ve got to talk about it a lot. You got to be specific about it, and you got to be authentic about it, and not try to present your culture as all the easy things, there are hard things that are part of our culture and that drives us to be ambitious. And I think that’s a good thing for an organization. 

Rob Hanna 26:29 

Absolutely, because competition is rife. And you know, you can’t rest on your laurels. And like you say, you know, being specific, a mentor said to me, Rob specific is terrific, and the more specific you can be is absolutely so true. And collaboration, again, you know, collaboration is not competition, collaboration is domination. And the more you can wrap your head around that it’s really important. And then I couldn’t agree more, in terms of self accountability, wherever you sit in the firm, at whatever level, you all have a role to play, as a leader, as an ambassador. And one of the best things I ever heard was, if it’s meant to be, it’s up to me. And I think if you can really understand that and take grasp of that, you’ll be very successful in wherever you choose to go, not necessarily in legal career, but in life. So this is a bit of a kind of, maybe woo, woo question, because it’s hard to predict, but I’m going to check it out there anyway. Michael, what do you think are going to be some of the biggest challenges? And I say that because things are changing so quickly in the next sort of, you know, five years within the legal industry, what do you think are going to be some of your biggest challenges? And how do you think you’re well positioned to address them? 

Michael Gerstenzang 27:25 

Well, look, I think we’ve talked a little bit about technology and generative AI. I view that both as an opportunity and as a challenge. I think we’re very committed to introducing and we’re already on the path of introducing generative AI in our work, but there are going to be challenges to make sure we do it right, and we’re committed not just to using the technology, but to using it in the right ways. We just published and people can find on our website our responsible AI principles. I think it’s important that law firms and other business organizations really commit to using AI in a responsible way, but that’s not kind of frozen in time set of principles, because the technology is evolving rapidly and will continue to evolve rapidly. And the use cases, both within law firms and in client work, are going to continue to evolve rapidly. So I think one of the challenges is going to be making sure that we continue to adapt our work and use technology, but that we use it in the right way. We don’t just put ourselves on autopilot, but we really think carefully about how we’re using it, and that we’re talking with clients about that. And this goes back to being a client centric business. Some of our most successful early pilots and using generative aI have been where we’ve had one on one discussions with a client about the problems that they’re trying to solve, and then we design the technology tool and the procedures around those problems. And I think that’s clearly the path forward, but it takes work and thought, and so it’s an opportunity, but a challenge to make sure we realize on the opportunity. I think the other big challenge for law firms is going to be the talent game, and competing to recruit and retain the best talent. Unlike prior generations, there are many opportunities in the world for interesting work, work that’s intellectually satisfying, that is satisfying from an entrepreneurial point of view, that is remunerative. And we need to compete for the best talent and then try to convince those people that making a long term career at Cleary Gottlieb would be a great thing for them, some of our best partners, and I would like to put myself in that category, arrived at Cleary Gottlieb, not really sure whether a long term career at a big law firm was the right thing for us, but somewhere along. Way. We fell in love with it. We fell in love with the practice. We fell in love with the firm, and today, now one of my jobs, and the as managing partner and the jobs of our senior partners is to help the next generation fall in love with what we do and with our with our organization. But that’s not easy, and there are generational changes and different ways of thinking about things. I, for 1am, really impressed and encouraged by the way that the younger generations think about work, think about the impact that they want to have. I am the last person to say, oh, kids these days, in a dismissive way, I actually am in awe of the mentality, the ambition, the courage that so many of our younger people have. And I think it’s incumbent on us to explain to them why we’re the right place for them, not incumbent on them to prove to us that they’re the right folks for us. That’s the nature of a talent business. We’ve got to continually attract and retain and develop the best people.  

Rob Hanna 31:08 

Yeah, and it’s so true, isn’t it? You know, there’s the famous, I think it’s Steve Jobs. It talks about, you know, don’t hire great people and tell them what to do. And I think you’re creating an environment where you can actually encourage this smart No, it’s smarter, isn’t it? Not necessarily hard. You know, this really creative, different way of thinking, maybe there is a better approach and being open to that and sort of, you know, it’s nurturing that talent to ensure that they feel seen, heard, and actually can move things, move things forward. And you want to talk a little bit about your article, because it touches it on there, but it’s a fantastic article that you co authored with Sixth Street and generative AI is a catalyst for law firms and talent development you share by focusing on process management, strengthening empathy, which I think is so important, learning the technology and persevering with creativity, law firms will be better equipped to use generative AI for the benefit of clients and themselves. So is there anything else you would just like to hammer home to any other people who might be sitting on the fence with this stuff? Because I don’t think there’s a time where you can be sitting on the fence anymore with where the puck is definitely going in terms of the real importance of those four areas I just mentioned.  

Michael Gerstenzang 32:07 

Yeah. Look, I think generative AI is going to be a game changer for the legal industry and for many other industries. There can be a temptation to compare it to other technology and technological innovations within law, you know, email and compare right black lining programs. This is something very different, and it’s going to be, I think, crucially important for individual lawyers and for law firms to embrace generative AI as a tool and to work as a co pilot with that tool. I sometimes give the analogy of flying in a plane, and I travel a lot for my for my job, when I get whenever I get on a plane, you know, I’m happy to see the pilot standing there greeting people, and they seem like they know what they’re doing, and that’s great, but I’m also very happy to know that there is a computer in the cockpit that is making a lot of the decisions and cross checking what the human pilot is doing and so on. That CO piloting approach, I think, is one that we ought to be embracing in law firms and working very closely with the generative AI tools that are rapidly developing now, one of the things that David Steepleman and I say in the article that you reference is it’s going to be important to think about what generative AI is good at, and what it’s not good at and what it’s good at is essentially pattern recognition, looking at how things have been done in the past, and applying that to the new question or the new problem. What it’s not good at is approaching that with empathy, with understanding the human dynamics of why this is a problem or an opportunity that deserves attention. That could be the dynamics within an organization. It could be the dynamics between two organizations. The computer isn’t going to be able to do that, and it’s not likely to be especially creative either, because it’s going to give you the answer that says, well, in the last 10,000 times and 9999 of them here were the answer. But sometimes it’s the one in 10,000 answer that is the right answer for a particular client, or it’s an answer that has never been used before in this particular context, but is used in a different context, a different geography, a different practice area, and turns out to be a very useful solution in in the problem that you’re addressing. So I think we need to focus on developing the human skills of empathy and creativity, because that’s where the machines are not going to be able to do our job. If I think about how over. For many years, certainly when I was a young lawyer, you know, how were young lawyers evaluated? Well, you know, the truth is, and certainly 30 years ago, this was the case. Stamina was a big part of it. Like, how hard could this person work over a long period of time? Well, no human is going to be able to outwork the machines. We shouldn’t even try to do that. So let’s bring what we as humans can uniquely deliver to clients, and let’s focus on that and use the machines for the rest of it. That’s the way that that I think about it.

Rob Hanna 35:30 

Yeah. And hopefully that will lead to, in time, you know, maybe slowly getting the shift right when it comes to work life balance and reducing some of that heavy load that could potentially be taken away with this technology for good? Yeah, I really like that. Michael, I mean, this is again, a question that might take you, putting you on the spot, but clearly, have been known for so many awards. You know, in the marketplace, global legal services, you’ve won. I mean, I could list off a load, but financial services, litigation Team of the Year, law firm of the year for media technologies, number one law firm in Latin America, South Korea, international firm of the year, arbitration Team of the Year, and so many more. What would you like your legacy to be as you lead Managing Partner of Cleary Gottlieb? 

Michael Gerstenzang 36:10 

well, look, first of all, it’s great to get those awards and recognitions. That feels good. That’s not what we’re about. We’re not about pursuing the next award or recognition. We’re about the work and doing great work for clients, and figuring out what our clients needs are today and five years from now and 10 years from now. And if we do that, if we remain focused on those basic principles, the awards and recognitions will will come. But we got to focus on, really what our business about, which is client focus and innovative and creative lawyering to achieve great client outcomes. When I think about my personal role in that, I’m trying to push us forward towards innovation, trying to make sure we recruit and retain the best people for that. And that’s not just lawyers. It’s great technologists making sure that we’ve got the right people for this technological advance. But I think of myself as both trying to push us forward and achieve, continue to achieve excellence, but without losing sight of our core values and our culture. I think we need to hold those two things in our minds together. I sometimes talk about the Cleary Gottlieb superpower of holding in our minds at one time, both courage and humility, courage to be bold in our advice, be bold in our business planning and the choices that we’re making, but remain humble and recognize that we don’t know everything we need to learn from those around us. Often that’s learning from clients. Sometimes it’s learning from other law firms. Often it’s learning from other professional services organizations who are further along on their journey in some ways, so maintaining courage and humility to build a great law firm for the next generation, I think that’s really what I’m hoping to achieve. 

Rob Hanna 38:13 

And you’re well and truly on the way it has to be said. And yeah, when it comes to everything we all need to be continuously learning. Very much so in the world that we live today. And I remember someone said to me, Rob, if you drop the L from learn, you know, if you actually think about it, once you learn, you then can earn. And it’s so true, you’ve got to invest in the learning and really be open to continuous learning to then go on and earn whatever it may be, not just monetary things. It could be awards. It could be whatever it may be. And Michael, this has been a fascinating discussion. I’ve learned a tremendous amount from you in a very short space of time. It’s been an absolute pleasure having on the show. I just have one final question before we we wrap up, and that would be, what would be your one piece of advice for those starting their career in the legal profession in 2024 keeping in mind the world we live today?  

Michael Gerstenzang 39:01 

Yeah, well, I think it’s a really exciting time for new lawyers to join the legal profession, because we’re on the cusp of so much change, and I think that’s going to be a very good thing for more junior lawyers. The two things I would say to any junior lawyer, frankly, any Junior professional one, approach your work with enthusiasm, even if sometimes it’s a kind of mundane task, approach it with enthusiasm, because you’ll get the most out of it, and because you will, by showing your enthusiasm, you’ll encourage people around you to invest in you, and that’s just human nature. People like to work with those that seem to be enjoying what they’re doing, and they spend time investing in those people. And all of us need others to invest in our success. So approach things with enthusiasm, and that will bring a. Lot of good. And the second is develop relationships with other people, internally and externally. So much of the legal profession, so much of life, is really getting to know other people and learning from them. Could be people in your law firm that are doing different things than you, or have a different way of thinking about the work you can learn from could be clients where it’s super valuable and interesting to learn about what they do in their jobs and what’s important to them and to their businesses. So really try to absorb as much as you can through those relationships. There are lots of other pieces of advice that you see out there, the importance of working hard and all of that. But I think the two core areas for me, enthusiastic approach to your work and developing relationships so that you can learn from as broad a network of people as possible.  

Rob Hanna 40:55 

Yeah, and I couldn’t agree and echo more. I remember my first ever basketball coach said to me, a, i e Rob, and I said, What’s that? He says, attitude is everything. And I think, you know, if you bring the right attitude, because you know, everything is energy, the more you bring that to whatever it is you do, then you’re going to get that reciprocated in different ways. And you know, again, someone once said to be contacts are good, but it’s the relationships that pay. And really investing in relationships, like you say, and you know, going that step further, and learning from people in and around you, and around you and really nurturing them, you’ll do tremendously well. And if our listeners would like to know more, Michael, about your tremendous career, it has to be said and what you’re getting up to at Cleary Gottlieb, where can they find out more? Feel free to share any social media handles, any website links. We’ll also make sure we share them with this very special episode for you too. 

Michael Gerstenzang 41:37 

So I’m active on LinkedIn. Post a lot of thoughts, including about technology, but also important topics for legal the legal industry. I’m happy to engage with people on LinkedIn. I’m happy to get direct emails from people and have calls or zooms or whatever it is. I think it’s an exciting time in the legal industry. It’s an exciting time for Cleary Gottlieb, but I want to share that with people. 

Rob Hanna 42:06 

Yeah, and I’ve been excited start to finish with this episode. So Michael, thank you ever so much once again for joining you. It’s been an absolute pleasure hosting you today, wishing you lots of wishing you lots of continued success with your own mission and all the great work you have in terms of embracing the future with Cleary Gottlieb, but from now, from all of us on the league, has been podcast over and out.