On today’s Legally Speaking Podcast, I’m delighted to be joined by Damien Van Brunschot. Damien is the owner and Principal Consultant of EvolveResolve. Leveraging his own expertise in mediation and leadership coaching, he co-founded, led and scaled boutique firm MVM Legal, later Kaden Boriss. Damien is the former Managing Partner of DWF (Australia). From 2020 to 2024, he’s been named by the Doyles guide as one of the best lawyers in Australia, specialising in workers’ compensation and respiratory diseases. Damien is passionate about the legal space and professional services, passing on his expertise to those in the trenches. He also recently launched his own podcast, The Resolution Room.

So why should you be listening in? 

You can hear Rob and Damien discussing:

– Leadership and Authenticity: Building Trust and Culture

– Lessons From Scaling Law Firms: Persistence, Mindset and Strategy

– Overcoming Challenges: Wellness, Mindfulness and Resilience

– The Value of Coaching and Mentorship For Legal Leaders

– Giving Back and Community Involvement: The Importance of Gratitude

Connect with Damien Van Brunschot here – https://au.linkedin.com/in/damien-van-brunschot

Transcript

Damien Van Brunschot  0:00  

Like many lawyers, I was very much first about servicing the client, and then I realised that unless I became a leader of people, I wasn’t going to scale one of the lessons that jump out at you is the importance of persistence and an open mindset in law and just keeping on going. A year ago, I set up a business as a mediator so specialise in conflict resolution leadership coaching. So I’ve led traditional practice, but really excited by this new chapter in terms of my contribution to, I suppose, the development of skills, leadership skills, in law and professional services, and also conflict resolution.

Robert Hanna  0:36  

On today’s legally speaking podcast, I’m delighted to be joined by Damien Van Brunschot. Damien is the owner and Principal Consultant of Evolve resolve. Leveraging his own expertise in mediation and leadership coaching, he co founded led and scaled boutique firm MBM legal later. Caden Boris Damien is the former managing partner of dwf Australia. From 2020 to 2024 he has been named by the Doyles guide as one of the best lawyers in Australia, specialising in workers compensation and respiratory diseases. Damien is passionate about the legal space and professional services, passing on his expertise to those in the trenches. He also recently launched his own podcast, the resolution room, so a very big, warm welcome to the show. Damien, great to be with you. Rob. Oh, it’s an absolute pleasure, and I understand we’re recording with yourself in London today. And before we get into absolutely everything you’ve been getting up to over the years in and around the world of law, we do have a customary icebreaker question here on the legally speaking podcast, which is on the scale of one to 10, with 10 being very real. What would you rate the hit TV series suits in terms of its reality of the law? If you’ve seen it.

Damien Van Brunschot  1:50  

I’m not an avid watcher Rob, but I’ve come and gone from it, I would say two. I think it doesn’t it’s not at all reflective of the law in Australia. Sadly, it’s far less glamorous and far less exciting and far more of a discipline, but it’s, it’s good TV.

Robert Hanna  2:05  

Yeah, they’re justified too. And with that, we can move swiftly on to talk all about your real legal career and everything you’re getting up to. So to begin with, Damian, would you mind telling our listeners a bit about your background and career journey?

Damien Van Brunschot  2:16  

Sure. Well, could that be with you? Rob, so basically, um, I’m an insurance lawyer by trade, so to speak. I studied in Brisbane and been a practitioner there as an insurance lawyer and then subsequently a managing partner of dwf. Before that, I actually started a law firm with a partner that we merged with dwf, so we became the first Australian business within the dwf stable. In terms of legal business, there was a claims business before and recently. Well, a year ago, I set up a business as a mediator, so specialising conflict resolution, leadership coaching. So I’ve left traditional practice, but really excited by this new chapter in terms of my contribution to, I suppose, the development of skills, leadership skills, in law and professional services and also conflict resolution. Yeah, absolutely. That’s a summary of 30 years.

Robert Hanna  3:11  

And I love it. How you you were able to do that so precisely. But obviously we’re going to unpack some of that as we go along the journey as well. Let, let’s go back to the the beginning part, though, in terms of what inspired you to get a career in law in the first place?

Damien Van Brunschot  3:23  

Well, I’m a humanities student, and I think as a humanities student, it’s I was, it was an accidental choice, as these things often are. I really enjoyed history and arts and law is a humanitarian discipline, and I guess I had no family in the law, but I thought this sounds like a credible way to contribute, and I didn’t really enjoy studying it much, but I actually weirdly enjoyed the practice of it more. So that’s which is a bit unusual. Not so it was, it was more a case of just a really good career that opened up lots of doors, was probably my thinking at the time, and a nice mix with a political science degree back in when I was 1718, yeah.

Robert Hanna  4:01  

And look, you went on to achieve great things. So you know, one of the things as part of your journey, I understand you were named one of the best lawyers in Australia by the Doyles guide, specialising in workers compensation and indeed, respiratory diseases. Could you share your journey of specialising in these areas with us?

Damien Van Brunschot  4:18  

Yeah, I think that was a really I consider myself an insurance lawyer, but as is often the case, you sort of follow large clients, and I was fortunate enough early in my career to win work for a large statutory compensation insurers. So does all workers compensation claims in the state in which I practice. And my career sort of tracked with that client as we grew that client and grew a team around it. And respiratory disease is just a particularly interesting and niche area of law, which I enjoyed in Queensland, where I practised, there was lots of problems associated with stone benchtops and silicosis. And before that, I did asbestos and mesothelioma. So that was a, really, a great. Great contribution that I felt I could make in terms of assisting this state fund in in advising and helping them navigate a really complex field with often lots of parties and some legal complexity. So I really enjoyed that. So yeah, it’s a sort of a when I talk, when I look at my specialty and compensation, I’ve done broad insurance work, not just compensation, but the workers comp was basically a feature of the largest client I had in my books, which I modelled, built a business around.

Robert Hanna  5:29  

It’s fair to say, very entrepreneurial. And when we were researching your background, it was just fascinating. Some of the niches within niches and specialisms and complexities of what you’ve done that were like, we’d just have to speak to Damien, because it’s really interesting, and obviously going on to leading huge firms as well. So I want to talk about dust diseases tribunal, because that’ll be the first on the show, because you’re selected as an expert for claims in this, which is a very niche area. Can you tell our listeners what being part of that tribunal actually involved? And are there any memorable cases over the years that you’re particularly able to share with us?

Damien Van Brunschot  6:02  

sure the dust diseases tribunal is, I was a solicitor who did that work. So basically, it’s a niche tribunal that was set up in Australia when James Hardy sort of exploded, if you like, New South Wales government set up a tribunal which was specialised to hear these types of cases with specialised judicial minds set up. And really it was very useful way of streamlining cases. Remember, people with mesothelioma sometimes have eight to 12 months to live. So it was a unique Australian carve out. And I really love being a part of it. So it was really about getting quick, fair, expeditious hearings, and it even had in place certain presumptions that broke down some of the contestability on various issues. So in terms of interesting cases, I I wasn’t actually, I got close to running them. A lot of them settled actually, which I’m grateful for, because you don’t want to run them unless you have to. But it was a great jurisdiction, and it’s a very specialised, unique jurisdiction in Australia, and I think it’s done a really good job at getting fair and quick compensation. And even though it’s New South Wales, it often works in areas all along the east coast as the go to jurisdiction, if I can call it that.

Robert Hanna  7:22  

Very much so. And again, thank you for giving us some some insight to that. And just the you know, again, people thinking about careers in law and where there are specialisation areas and things that you can getting involved with. And you co founded your own firm, MVM legal, I believe, and that was specialising in insurance fraud investigation, workplace practices and mediation services. You scaled the firm and oversaw its merger, I think, to with a global law firm such as dwf. So could you tell us the biggest lessons you’ve learned from building and scaling a firm?

Damien Van Brunschot  7:54  

Yeah, heaps of lessons. I think one of the one of the lessons that jump out at you is the importance of persistence and an open mindset in law and just keeping on going really lessons around I, like many lawyers, I was very much first about servicing the client, and then I realised that unless I became a leader of people, I wasn’t going to scale. So I was late to that party in terms of really developing the skill set of serve of of leading and inspiring people. But lessons along the way include, you know, don’t hire friends. Make sure you really I don’t think that’s a hard lesson that some of us have learned in scale up world. Your friendships were lost. The important lesson of providing a really good environment for people to prosper. The absolute centrality of culture, the importance of how you turn up as a leader to the workplace, how you shape tone and culture, and how really the greatest challenge in leadership, not just similar to parenting, is actually trying to become the best version of yourself. That was a big lesson, the importance of stepping away from a legal mindset in the sense that sometimes it holds you back as a business builder. What I’m saying by that is, to build business, you need to be quite experimented, an experimenter in your mindset. You prepared to fail and to try things, and particularly in marketing and building a brand. And of course, that’s the very thing that lawyers we hate to do. You know, we hate to fail, and we are really afraid of trying things out. So that was a really important lesson as well, the importance of being open and being a bit of an experimenter in terms of trying things out in the market. But really the success of the law firm was really a feature of the people, and I guess the skills that myself and others learned about in providing a place where people could be their best, prosper and perform. So yeah, thanks for that question, Rob. We could go on forever.

Robert Hanna  10:01  

That does, so many nuggets you put in there. You create an environment where people can not only survive, but thrive. And I think you make a really good point about friends and business. You know, I’ve made mistakes in the past myself, and you know, my advice to people, if you’re thinking of starting a business is, if you’re co founding with a friend and you have the same idea, that’s great, but their values and ways of going about it in business might be different to getting to that goal and whether they align with you or not. So I think that’s great. And I always say when it comes to failure, I use the acronym lose. You don’t actually ever lose. It’s just life offering some experience. And I think if you learn from that experience and move forward, you can be super, super powerful. And like you say, have to keep testing and adapting and moving forwards and moving forward you did as a former managing partner of dwf Australia, you were appointed, I think, around post covid, to stabilise and lead the Australian business into its return to growth. So what initiatives Did you lead to ensure that the business continued to thrive in its core areas of expertise?

Damien Van Brunschot  10:54  

Yeah, thanks, Rob. That was a tough time, and it’s good to mention it, because there’s lots of good lessons out of it as well. When I took on the role, it was patched together a bit as as an operation. Dwf came quickly to Australia and wanted to build revenue and team. And unfortunately, a good lesson in that is the importance of a strategic, clear underpinning, which didn’t happen at the time. But you know it, there’s sometimes experiments. So I had to make 80 people redundant as a decision of the global operation reasonably early. So lots of lessons about being honest and transparent and doing your best to navigate that sort of difficulty. And then it was about bringing us back to the core basics. What made the operation successful, what was the core strategic purpose of dwf, what was its core cultural attributes? So in a sense, I became just someone who could try to weave it together, to get over the redundancy and the market shock and to rebuild the brand as a credible place for people and careers and for clients, and that’s a lot, and that’s not I was there for a couple of years, but I was really alive to the fact that that’s not a short term process. You know, it takes time to do that, and it takes consistency. And I’ve left now, of course, but in the year that I’ve left, they’ve grown again with the acquisition of the hall and Wilcox London markets insurance team, which is a big, big win. So I feel that the stability that I offered in the Australian market in terms of its stability and its strategic underpinning in insurance, hopefully left it in a good place to do what it’s done recently and grow again. So sadly, I wasn’t. I did. We did some growth, but I wasn’t I left before the but I was alive to the reality that it was more my role was about weaving it back together, getting it back to the basics, and being a really solid foundation. So in that sense, it was a very important role. I mean, all businesses that succeed should really work hard on a solid foundation, and we had to go back to the drawing board at dwf as a consequence of those significant redundancies, which shut down offices, I might add, you know, on the east coast of Australia, Newcastle, Sydney and Melbourne. So it was a it was a big change, and it required a particular, I guess you could say cohesive mindset to keep the show together.

Robert Hanna  13:24  

Yeah, absolutely when, when walls are falling down, you need to be able to stand there, and, you know, really be able to have that resilience, then also to be able to make good, clear decisions. And you know, you did it. You did a great job. And you know, I think you’re being a little bit humble there, because you grew the team to over 30% following its initial right sizing exercise. You led 160 staff members and achieved the highest employment engagement scores in the dwf global business. So you know, there’s no mean feat there. And I love that you talk very openly about having to have card conversations, having to be open, having to be transparent, and also sometimes saying, as a leader, I don’t have all the answers. You know, let’s try and find a way together to to ideate to try and find answers to these problems and collaborate, and you know, not necessarily, put on the mask and say, I know everything. So in terms of strategies you did use to grow the firm, and whilst keeping those performance rates now you’ve got the benefit of hindsight. Was there one in particular you think, yes, that was absolutely crucial. Or is there anything you think you wish you would have done again with hindsight and benefits?

Damien Van Brunschot  14:23  

Yeah, in terms of the growth strategy, I think it’s really important to to be clear about what your value proposition is. I think that’s really important. And I love the work of Michael Porter, who says that strategy is as much about what you don’t do as what you do do. And I think that’s a really important, salient lesson in the dwf story, for example, the problems that went wrong were a feature of the fact that there wasn’t a clear strategic underpinning. So when you build a global business in particular, you’ve got to be really clear about the client crossover and what areas you want to be in in a jurisdiction. So in terms of the dwf story, the strategy was to really base it around a core insurance office offering dwf history is 50, 60% in insurance. It’s very much got its DNA as an insurance firm. So when you’re coming into a new jurisdiction, play to your strengths. I think that’s another strategic lesson, play to your strengths and be clear about where you’re at in the market and why you want to do it. And in terms of the strategy around the earlier bill, before we we we joined dwf, the strategy when I started the business. And this is going to sound a bit trite, but the strategy was just to be open, approachable and a good place to work. Because, remember, at the time, you know, some legal partners in the Brisbane and other market had the reputation of being quite difficult and not very communicative. So the strategy was just the right cultural place to grow business and the right client alignment. But the dwf strategy, I think, go in the Australian market, was really about what not to do, and if you look at the mistakes made, it was trying to be all things to all people. Yeah, and I think in terms of the story of a business, that’s a really important lesson. You know, play to your strengths, even in your personal life and leadership, I always say to leaders, because people are often interested in, how do you offset some of your weakness? How do you navigate it? But an equally important question is, just be unashamed about playing to your strengths as a person, as a leader, because there’s a bit more bang for your buck there. Sometimes in playing to your strengths,

Robert Hanna  16:34  

lean into it and our listeners, we fed up of me saying it. But specific is terrific. The more they focused and lasered in the far more successful you’ll be. And again, thank you for being so refreshingly open with your journey. And obviously, before we come on to evolve resolve and all the great work you’re getting up to, I want to talk again about challenges, because there will be managing partners, people on the rise up to leadership within law firms listening to this, and people aspiring to do so. And you know, you’ve had a whole host of challenges. You know, when you’re managing partner of a huge firm such as dwf, particularly in Australia, how did you overcome them? From a personal level, were there any things that you were doing? Was it mentors? Was it meditation? Was it what were some of the things you were doing to overcome challenges?

Damien Van Brunschot  17:13  

Yeah, it’s a really good question. It’s it goes to the heart of the personal story. I know you can’t divorce leadership from the personal story in life, in business, so a number of things. In about 2016 or thereabouts, I felt life was overwhelming me. And in fact, I, for a brief period, went on anti anxiety medication, and I thought, you know, I don’t want to do this. I didn’t see myself as someone who wanted this. So really revisited everything in my life in a way. So yes, I meditate clumsily and badly, like all meditators, but mindfulness is really important to me. I run I keep myself healthy, I engage socially. I have a broad network of friends outside the law as well. Social Engagement really matters. So I think to overcome challenges, it really goes to the heart of the ability to keep going and what works for you in terms of resilience, but for me, it was about a health and wellness story. It’s about making sure that you know you’re going to have to manage stress, so your ability to absorb and manage it and make the right decisions comes from a place in which you feel you’re the best you can be. Now it’s never easy, because you know there’s you’re overwork and you’re under sleep, and at times we use too much alcohol. So it’s never, it’s never necessarily an easy journey. But certainly, wellness was really important to me. And the other thing that became really important to me, and you said it well, is to is to be humble and appreciate that you don’t have all the answers that you’re also learning. And I think people love that transparency. They like the idea of someone who’s may hold some level of authority and may have some clarity, you know, don’t get stuck in paralysis, but at the same time, is doesn’t pretend that he or she has all the answers and is and is authentic at that level. I think that builds connection and Bill’s capacity, so that’s kind of been my guiding light, so to speak, on the field of challenges, it’s a very personal but important conversation.

Robert Hanna  19:08  

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Damien Van Brunschot  20:13  

Well, it’s fair to say it was a failed experiment, and I think that’s, that’s, that’s a good way of looking at it, but, but I was a partner in support of the listing process. It offered something new and different. There’s nothing fundamentally why listing couldn’t work in a legal business. If it’s profitable, it offers a good dividend stream. It can be a really safe investment, but it’s not commonly embraced, and it hasn’t been particularly successful. Now is that a feature of the fact that there’s not enough people doing it, yes. Is it a feature of the fact that there’s still over reliance on the partnership model? Probably, is it a feature of the fact that because the market doesn’t know how to judge a legal business, because it’s in a very narrow sector without a broad range of competitors? So in the dwf story, it was a perfect storm of factors that coalesced to make it an unsuccessful experiment. I mean, it’s, as you know, it’s been bought out by private equity now and taken off the market. There’s a hell of a lot of compliance and other costs that a business is fostered on, which I think is making the list of business model even that’s why, you know, private equity is looking at businesses that aren’t listed often, because it provides that level of flexibility. Is it dead inverted commas as a business model for law and professional services? I don’t think so necessarily, but I think its moment won’t come for a while again, I could see hypothetically why it’s still important, because you get capital in, you can build quickly, you can invest, you can get external investors. So it’s got, it’s got some merits and upside, but unfortunately, the downsides. The other thing about listing a business, which you’ve got to realise, is that you have a perennial scoreboard on your business. It might, might not, reflect its true performance, and that can actually be really demotivating. So it’s like you’re coaching the kids football, and you turn your at half time, and you’re telling the kids they’re playing the game of their lives, but the kids are looking at you going, doesn’t feel like we’re winning here, don’t you? And I guess the reality of a list of businesses, you have a scoreboard, ie the price, the share price, and so you’ve got to navigate the short term ability and the long term, and I think that caused a lot of conflict, but in short, compass, Rob, yes, I was grateful for the opportunity. I thought I was open to the idea of being different, and I liked it, but it was a failed experiment. In the case of dwf. Is it dead forever? I don’t think so, but I think it’s time won’t be for a while again.

Robert Hanna  22:38  

Yeah, no. And to my point, life, offering some experience, right? You just, you know, you go through these phases, and you take things from it and but at the end of the day, if you don’t try, you never know. And like you say, Is it dead? Who knows? Potentially not, the time may come around again. So before we move from your dwf part, just sort of a wrap up question on that, reflecting on your time there, can you tell us what your role taught you about leadership?

Damien Van Brunschot  23:01  

My role taught me the importance of authenticity and leadership. My role taught me the importance of creating space for people to be seen and heard, the importance of appreciation as a hallmark of culture. My role taught me the importance of being as transparent and clear as you can be. And by that I mean there are some things you can’t, sadly share, but the importance of, I guess it at times what could feel like over communicating. And at times I’ve even I was, you’re so busy, at times I was criticised for not communicating. And now and clarity of vision and purpose. And I guess another lesson to weave it all together is what we spoke about Rob, which was the importance of of a solid, strategic underpinning. What did you say? Specific is terrific? Yeah, absolutely, yeah. There you go. That that that’s kind of they’re some of the key lessons that jump out at me, and I guess for anyone on the leadership path, and I hope a lot of our listeners are it, it is a tremendous opportunity to learn a lot about yourself and what makes you tick and what’s important to people. So I I think it’s, it’s a terrific part of the process. And as lawyers, we often don’t give it enough thought and attention, because we’re too busy in the world of servicing clients and and being a lawyer,

Robert Hanna  24:18  

doing the doing and doing. As mentor says, grow as you go, right? And I think it’s so important. And yeah, I just want to hammer this point home, because, you know, a lot of people sort of hear me say the same thing time time again on the show about certain things, but it’s so true. If you confuse people, you lose people. If they don’t understand what they’re doing, or your clients don’t understand what you’re doing, then forget it. You’re going to be irrelevant. It’s not going to work. And when it comes to communication, it’s better to be clear than it is to be clever. Forget the corporate masking, just so direct people be clear and they’ll appreciate it. It may not be what they want to hear, but it’s what they need to hear. And I feel like sometimes people try to over confuse, try to be wishy washy. If you can be clear, rather than trying to be clever, you’ll buy a lot more trust from clients, and indeed, your people so love that.

Damien Van Brunschot  25:00  

But that is so true, and let’s talk quickly about that trust. Trust is at the paramount of client relationship and workplace relationship, and that’s a game of clarity, as you say, and it develops over time. I love the you know, the notion that trust is like a reputation. It can be lost very quickly, but it’s built over time, and it’s built through very much clarity and doing what you say you’re going to do.

Robert Hanna  25:23  

Let’s stick with some some advice from you, though, because you’ve shared a lot about your story thus far, and you’ve been able to grow a boutique firm and led a global one. What advice would you give to lawyers, considering maybe the shift from traditional practice to management and ultimately, entrepreneurship?

Damien Van Brunschot  25:39  

I think they’re very different skill sets, and I think it’s important that people embrace the creativity of an entrepreneurial life, even in law and and, and I a big believer in I mean, for me, my story in law was one of entrepreneurship as much of that law. And interestingly enough, I really enjoyed my stint at dwf, but it wasn’t for me being part of a bit, you know, and here I am again on the startup story. So for me, entrepreneurship is important feature of my life story, probably as much as being a lawyer is in many ways, but they’re very different skill sets. I mean, first of all, you’ve got to obviously develop the skills technically to be a good lawyer, but the skill of building business and being an entrepreneurship. Being an entrepreneur is a very different skill, and it’s really about meeting the market and understanding the market and building capacity around you and and that’s it. That’s a terrific but a difficult story, and it’s not for every and it’s not for everyone, and that’s okay, it’s not for everyone.

Robert Hanna  26:43  

No, and I think that’s an important point, isn’t it? Because you you’ll see online as well, you know this, that and the other go and do this, go and do that. But some people maybe are fantastic within an organisation that’s right, entrepreneurs and can be highly successful and go out and create and just thrive off having that little bit more support system and more structure around them. But those who do choose to go out there and do it, obviously, you know, good luck to them, I say. And with that, we should talk about evolve resolve, because you’ve been leveraging 20 years of experience in mediating disputes and claims and now offer, as you mentioned at the intro piece, coaching to support the difficulties that come with corporate leadership and indeed, organisational development. So please, can you tell us a little bit more about EvolveResolve?

Damien Van Brunschot  27:24  

Thanks, Rob, good opportunity. So basically, it’s twofold. It’s a mediation, leadership, coaching and programme business. I’ve just had the privilege I’m sitting with you talking in a very warm London day, but I’ve just been to Harvard for a mediation intensive, which was a terrific experience, broadly. So mediation has it has its heart conflict resolution, and it’s a lot more applicable to leadership than you would think, because it’s the ability to really understand various perspectives that it and understand people and what motivates them that goes to the heart of good leadership. So in a sense, if you look at my what evolve resolve was do the broad compass, if I that weaves it all together, if you like, is conflict resolution. So in much of my coaching work, I talk with leaders about how to manage people, how to bring out the best in people, how to have the hard conversations, how to motivate and inspire people. And of course, the mediators role as a senior lawyer is getting practitioners often, but not always. They do workplace and other disputes to try to try to see if there’s any common ground, to see what we can agree on, narrow the issues potentially and hopefully, if circumstances permit, achieve a resolution. So the business is, I’m not sure if it’s a business that is as capable of scaling as a law firm because it’s very much mediation is very much a personal services offering. It’s very much about your expertise and position, but the leadership coaching is perhaps something that we can and programmes is something that we could look to over time. The other key issue in leadership in the market I’m in is convincing lawyers particular that they that they should, they need and should pay for this help, which is as much the challenge as having the conversations.

Robert Hanna  29:11  

And you know, I always, when it comes to things like this, I always try to get people to frame it in a sporting context. You look at any successful tennis player, any successful golfer, they’ve always had a coach. They’ve always had someone there to help them, to get the best out of them, to guide them, to give them that nugget of wisdom. And I think it’s the same in your career. It’s the number one thing you invest the most amount of time in amount of hours in your whole life you’re doing, you should be at your sharpest throughout and you know, leadership is so so important, and the work that you’re doing is so, so important, and let’s talk about a key area then, because the ongoing work that you’re doing is a voice for professional services leadership. So what obstacles Do you often face when in leadership, in a managerial position that you seen time and time again, that you want to get out there for again, for people listening to this that might be in those.

Damien Van Brunschot  30:00  

Situations, yeah, I think one of the largest obstacles you face is the is just the time pressures that you face is often in the relentlessness of, say, legal services, where you’re the incentives are such that you have to meet very key client demands and and expectations, and you don’t have the time you need to dedicate yourself to the bigger picture, the strategic picture, the business development, the people development, and you get stuck in a comfort zone because the clients pay the bills, and you think that that’s where you need to be, but actually where you really need to be is not in that space, necessarily or not just solely in that place. So most of the obstacles you have with people in the law is just the relentless nature of and the high financial pressure means that they often put on the back burner really important issues that will actually go to the heart of them succeeding. So it’s kind of the paradox that you need to confront the very thing, the old, you know, the whole thing in leadership is, what gets you here won’t get you there. So that book, that Marsh, I think, Marshall Goldsmith, I can’t remember, wrote, and it’s, you know, it goes to that heart that what gets you there, the good technical client, salt, problem solve. People often stop there and plateau there. And so what I’m trying to help people with is understand that it’s a separate skill now to to become a legal leader, that those skills you develop as a technician, albeit important, aren’t at the heart of what it takes to motivate and bring people with you. A good example is amongst lawyers. I think another obstacle is a tendency towards perfectionism, which can spill over to micromanagement of people, which will demotivate people around you quite significantly. So, yeah, those are some of the key obstacles that that I face. And it goes back to the point that I made in my leadership work. It’s about convincing people inverted commas, that they do need this help. And the analogy makes a good one. We you know, all teams have really important coaching and we have mentors. What we often need is sometimes the importance of a mentor outside your organisation. I’ve certainly had mentors and friends outside of law, more in business. In fact, I’ve actively sought them out, because that’s been my curious mindset has been more about I’ve dealt with a lot of great lawyers. I know what that looks like, but my my curiosity has been more about what is good business leadership look like. What is building a business look like? So so coaching is really a great skill in that space for people just to be reflective a bit and get out of the Hurly burly, get out of the day to day, and to take a bird’s eye view of their life, their career and their story.

Robert Hanna  32:43  

And I love that work, curiosity. It’s so important. And having that growth mindset. And I talk a lot about your 360 board of directors and your horizontal and vertical mentors, people beneath you, to the side of you, above you, different areas, different sectors, bringing different opinions, because you can formulate a view, and you might just get a nugget from wisdom from outside of the legal world that just could actually transfer nicely into we talk about transferable skills, but transferable mentors, all of that I love, and you’re right, the comfort zone is good, but nothing ever grows there. And as I always say to people looking to scale the business or go to a new level, new level, new devil, you have to expect that there’s going to be new things you need to overcome and challenges your way, and you’re touching on it there, that there’s new skills that need to be acquired as you go on this journey. So in your experience, what are the top three traits needed to be a strong leader?

Damien Van Brunschot  33:26  

Okay, first of all, it’s important to know who you are, so don’t try to be anything who you’re not. I think people respect authenticity and you’re building trust. So you know this notion that you need to be charismatic and extroverted, it’s not actually true necessarily. You can build credibility and trust. So I think really important to know who you are. Secondly, is to be open to change and really understand what motivates yourself and people around you. And I’m just going to throw a third out there, which I think is consistent with the first, and that’s to play to your strengths and to bring people with you that are better and smarter at you in the areas that you are weak, and make sure they have a voice at the table. And they’re and not only a voice, but they’re around the table to begin with, which is an equally important factor. So yeah, those are the three that just jump out at me in this conversation, Rob.

Robert Hanna  34:18  

And they’re so important, aren’t they? If you can just get comfortable with being uncomfortable and being your true, authentic self, because maybe you haven’t been in the world of work, because you feel like you’ve Can you need, needed to put on this, I think you’ll connect with people on such a different level. And you know, aside from all of this stuff that you’ve been doing, you know, running huge, normal firms, running businesses, you still find time, which impresses me, to give back to the community. So in 2022 and 2023 you also run the London and New York marathons, I believe, raising over $20,000 for projects. You also volunteer for nonprofit organisations. So please tell us more about your volunteering role. Yeah, a reason for giving back to the community?

Damien Van Brunschot  34:57  

Yeah, thanks, Rob. You’ve done your esearch

Robert Hanna  35:02  

we have, we have.

Damien Van Brunschot  35:05  

which is good, yeah, listen, it’s a really important feature of looking at yourself through the lens of gratitude in your life and how you contribute. I just recently did the CI sleep out. Are you familiar with Brisbane? That’s where there’s a sports stadium called the GABA. Do you know cricket?

Robert Hanna  35:19  

Yeah, I’m good friends with Stuart broad, so I’ve seen him bowl.

Damien Van Brunschot  35:23  

and we slept out there for a night on the concrete and raised money for St Vincent de Paul, which is a Catholic base, not for profit, to address homelessness. So that was my thing. I did this year. But I try to do, I try to do one really important thing every year in terms of fundraising and then contributing in broader ways. A lot of my broader contribution now is just to the profession, actually, that I do pro bono, really to help people and mentor people, but, but it’s such an important I just think it’s easy for us to lose sight of gratitude, to lose sight of the picture and to really remember that we exist within communities. I mean, I find it ironic, you know, that the feature of people that sometimes are really wealthy is that actually the very thing that they have actually distance themselves from people at times, you know, private jets and living in mansions. So ironically, I just think it’s the very thing that we are. We are a tribal connection built species. And I’m really grateful for the opportunities that I’ve got, for the success that I’ve achieved, and the corollary of that is it’s important to give back. So yeah, thanks for thanks for mentioning it. I might have a marathon in me next year, by the way.

Robert Hanna  36:44  

There we go. Well, let us know, and we’ll get our listeners to hopefully support you and hopefully sticking with impressing you with our research. You also have your own podcast, the resolution room, so I recently launched. So could you tell us more about your show and give us some insights?

Damien Van Brunschot  36:56  

Yeah, I’d really like to have a chat with you offline. Rob about your connections and some of the people that would be interested to talk to. So what I’m, what I’m achieving in the resolution room is, and it’s is to bring together conflict resolution and leadership. So it’s going to, it’s sort of dovetailing my passion project in this new business of conflict resolution, mediation, conflict transformation and also relationship management, leadership inspiring, and I want to have key leaders to tell their stories like we’re doing now. I have done some inverted covers to sound like a younger person, some solo content. I find, I find this conversation is really refreshing. I much more enjoy talking with guests, so thanks for giving it a plug. It’s early days. I’ve got a couple of episodes out. I’ve really enjoyed the process, and I enjoyed the learning, and I hope to build an audience in these two areas, there’s a bit of a gap, I think, in terms of addressing these areas. So appreciate you mentioning it.

Robert Hanna  37:58  

Yeah, no, absolutely. And this is important, you know, we’re pro collaboration, collaborations, domination. We say it all the time, but it’s so important. You know, we want to spotlight great initiatives or things that people are doing. And you know, you’re giving us your wisdom through your journey, and you’ve been very open about the great things that have happened, but the challenges along the way. And it’s been a really authentic, fun conversation. So before we let you go, give us some final pieces of advice. What would you say to aspiring lawyers who are starting out their legal journey and one day, perhaps wish to become a managing partner?

Damien Van Brunschot  38:27  

Sure, first of all, become really good at the core game of being a lawyer. It’s a game of persistence and dedication. So turn up to be really good and turn up and lean in and turn up more. I know, you know, I understand the importance of flexibility and workplaces, but relationships are critical to your success, so that means you’re going to have to turn up more, as uncomfortable as can be to the to the next generation. So first of all, become good at the core game. Learn from people around you. Be really intentional about your network from an early time. I wish I was I sort of am much more intentional about it. Now. Be really intentional about your network. Become really good at your core game, and then appreciate that there’s a whole separate skill set in how you motivate, inspire and bring people with you. And in fact, that will be more a measure of your success than your technical capacity as a lawyer over time. And I think the third point in very interesting, volatile times around AI and disruption is Be curious and open to change and just be able to embrace it relatively quickly, because I think we’re at a really interesting point in legal services where we’re going to have to perhaps revisit a lot of traditional models over time. So that’s another thing that I say to younger people, it’s been a great career. It’s a great career in the law, you can solve a lot of problems, help a lot of people, and really contribute, but I think at the moment, it comes with some unique pressure points.

Robert Hanna  39:57  

Yeah, it’s so true. Contacts are good, but it’s the relationship. That you nurture, Foster, and sprinkle value over time that really pay dividends in the future. And as you say, Get really strong and technically proficient at your game so you really understand what you’re doing as you continue to go up the food chain. And the key part is never stop learning, right and be curious and have that growth mindset like absolutely we’ve had throughout your journey. And thank you so much. Damien really, really enjoyed today’s discussion. It’s great to have you recording on the same time zone, because I know it wouldn’t be a bit different if you’re back over in Australia, but it’s been a pleasure having you on. The league has been podcast sponsored by Clio, wishing you lots of continued success with your show and indeed evolve resolve and everything you’re getting up to in and around the world of lore, but from now, from all of us over and out. Thank you for listening to this week’s episode. If you like the content here, why not check out our world leading content and Collaboration Hub, the legally speaking club, over on Discord. Go to our website, www.legallyspeakingpodcast.com has a link to join our community there, over and out.