Legal Marketing Solutions for Lawyers, By Lawyers – Jordan Ostroff – S6E22

00:08 Rob Hanna:

Welcome to the Legally Speaking Podcast. I’m your host Rob Hanna. This week I’m delighted to be joined by Jordan Ostroff. Jordan is the President and Co-Founder of LegalEase Marketing. Jordan co-founded the advertising service in 2019. Formed by a group of attorneys frustrated with traditional marketing firms, LegalEase Marketing helps clients to stand out in a competitive marketplace. They specialise in search engine optimisation, law firm management, Facebook ads, video production, executive coaching, marketing consulting, and much more. So a very warm welcome, Jordan.

00:49 Jordan Ostroff:

Thanks so much for having me Rob.

00:51 Rob Hanna:

Oh, it’s an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. And I’m a geek about all of this stuff. So I’m super excited about today’s discussion. But before we go into all your amazing projects and what you’re getting up to and the value you’re adding to the legal community, we have a customary icebreaker question here, on the Legally Speaking Podcast which is, on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being very real, what would you rate the hit TV series Suits in terms of its reality of the law?

01:15 Jordan Ostroff:

Probably like a negative 27.

01:19 Rob Hanna:

Brilliant, you don’t have to add any further context. But if you’d like to feel free.

01:23 Jordan Ostroff:

Sure, I mean, look, I’ve watched I don’t know how many seasons there were of the show. I watched probably the first like 7 or 8 until, until Mike and the third in line Queen of England left, but ummm, I just, I wish a lot of our stuff happened that quickly. But obviously we can’t just blackmail everybody into everything the entire way through. So, please don’t assume that there are fake lawyers out there, it happens like once every 10 years, or whatnot. And then don’t assume that a case will get resolved and you know 45 minutes by having the worst leverage on any giant corporation to make them cave and.

01:52 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, minus 27 justified. Let’s move on. So, let’s start at the beginning Jordan, would you mind telling our listeners a bit about your background and career journey?

02:02 Jordan Ostroff:

Sure. So I wanted to be a lawyer as long as I can remember. And I had no idea what that meant. And some days, I still don’t know what that means. But like, there’s videos of me like 5 years old talking about being a lawyer. And so I ended up starting out as a prosecutor, right out of law school, which was awesome. I got to handle 50 something trials. I got to do 100s of motions, I got to handle 10,000 cases. So when I switched over into opening up my own firm, I had a ton of experience, at least on the criminal side. So starting criminal defence, and then we ended up going into personal injury, realising that we could help the same clients in a much better manner, along those lines. But at 1 point I realised I wasn’t even really a lawyer, you know, I was a business owner, I was an entrepreneur, I was the marketing director, I was the HR department, etc. And so my wife and I made a really smart decision. She would focus on cases, I would focus on the business, and then from there became LegalEase Marketing. So we could help other law firms across, I would say the country, although we’ve got some in Canada as well, really help them build the same benefits that we’ve had for our firm.

02:58 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, so let’s, let’s dive into that because you are the President and Co-Founders, you touched on there and I mentioned in the introduction LegalEase Marketing. So, you know, break it down, what is LegalEase Marketing for people in more detail?

03:10 Jordan Ostroff:

Sure. So we are a fractional CMO in the legal space. So that is that chief marketing officer role, it’s a higher-level decision making with you. So all of our clients start out with this really nice overarching marketing plan, that comes up with a million different ideas, that you can’t afford to do all of them. But at least we’re talking about the things that make sense to our ideal client, what they would cost and then sort of not just pricing out, but setting up, okay this is a quarter 4 thing, this is a q1 of next year, q2, etc, to help keep your firm growing towards whatever your goal is, what the firm long term, as opposed to just saying, we’ll do pay per click ads for you or we’ll redo your website or whatnot, without really getting into that nitty gritty long-term goals that you have in place.

03:49 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, I love that. And there’s such need for it now, particularly in the competitive market space that we’re in with legal service offering. So sticking with goals and missions, you know, what is LegalEase Marketing, overall mission? And how did it come about? How did you come about wanting to start all of this?

04:03 Jordan Ostroff:

So, we, I’m going to answer those in reverse, like a good lawyer squirming out of a question. So from my standpoint, like I said, I started out as a prosecutor, so that was a little over 3 years, did criminal defence work for little under 4. So in about those 7 years I had more colleagues die by suicide, heart attack, stroke, or a number that just like, abandoned their practice and just disappeared 1 day. You know, we, they were, we found they were alive, but like they were just gone and not practicing or whatever, and then who retired. And so it really kind of, that struck me every time it came up as like, what’s the, what’s the problem, and it’s not a problem on an individual person by any means. It’s a problem on our industry, because our industry is adversarial, it forces you to fight with each other all day long. We don’t get trained on the business strategies. We don’t get trained on the marketing strategies. We don’t figure out that a law firm is a business and when we run it differently than every other business, we run into those issues. And so I looked at like what’s the best way for me to be able to get free advice out there to people at the very beginning and incentivise them bringing us in for us to be able to customise everything for them in a way that makes sense. And so really LegalEase is marketing, LegalEase marketing’s core goal is to help more lawyers be happy.

05:08 Rob Hanna:

I love that. And it’s something I’m super passionate about, and particularly here on the Legally Speaking Podcast, why we wanted to start the show to sort of educate, inspire, entertain, and try and push, you know, a community and content to try and bring more happiness to the profession. That’s why it’s great we’ve got you on today telling through your mission and what you’re up to, and how you’re serving the legal industry. Let’s, you know, again, nap marketing doesn’t always come naturally to, to legal professions. So firstly, what is your definition of marketing, and does the same definition apply to the legal profession?

05:39 Jordan Ostroff:

So, I love this, I’m gonna, I’m gonna break it down into for me, it’s a Venn diagram. These are the clients that I want to work with, this is what authentically about me makes me the best fit and then marketing is the overlap. So it’s figuring out, you know, if you’re a great presenter, where you can present to an ideal audience of your clients, if you’re a great writer, where can you write or what can you write that’s going to be of interest to them. It’s really that overlap between who you are and who you want to work with. And I think that applies to any industry, as lawyers I think we get the benefit of 1, it’s illegal to practice law as not a lawyer. So we’ve got some cool moots in place for us for the most part, but 2 like, we truly can sell our knowledge, you know, there’s not, you don’t have a pattern on specific case law. You can’t, there’s nothing that prevents other people from handling cases a certain way so the more that you are knowledgeable, the more you provide a great client experience, the more you can charge for it, the more people you can help, etc, you get a little bit of an added benefit as opposed to if you’re just selling software, and you’re competing on what’s the cheapest software, if you’re, you know, selling, you know, a product, you might have a specific product but you might have competitors for the specific thing, here it’s true knowledge. So I think that personal brand becomes so important.

06:45 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, and I’m a massive advocate of personal branding for lawyers. And I think it’s 1 of the biggest aces in your card deck that you can have, particularly nowadays with the social media world and digital world that we, we live in. And I know this is an answer where you’re perhaps say it depends, which of course, but you know, sticking with sort of pricing, you know, how much does it cost lawyers to market their law firm? Or perhaps more sensibly, what variables should they take into consideration when thinking about this?

07:10 Jordan Ostroff:

So I’m a big fan of rather than the price I like breaking it down as a percentage of your gross revenue. So I think everybody will tell you pretty consistently 10 to 20 per cent earmark for marketing from there gross revenue. From my standpoint, the only thing I would say is if you’re trying to grow into a specific amount then maybe closer to that 20 per cent or even like 25 per cent, you know, if you know you’re gonna go from 300,000 this year to 600,000 next year, then it’s okay to put 10 or 20 per cent of like a 4 50 firm, so they’re in that middle ground. I think that’s the easier way because ultimately you can always spend more money on marketing, there’s always another channel, there’s always more eyeballs, there’s always that. So really it’s figuring out what’s the best use of the dollars that makes sense for you to spend.

07:50 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, I love that, such sage advice because it’s about being strategic, isn’t it? And also having that sort of breakdown. So that’s super helpful. So let’s again, stick with this, again, people listening in might be curious, how many people should a law firm hire to ensure they’re in a better position to advertise their services? If they’re hiring at all?

08:09 Jordan Ostroff:

It’s a great question. So I think it’s funny because we do that, like correlation is not causation thing, right? So 1 of the biggest things, you get all these lawyers that launch their firm, they’re like, I need billboards, because all these giant law firms have billboards. But really, like, that’s the final thing, you know, that’s the cherry on top of the sundae they’ve already built. So when it comes time for the start the marketing stuff, I actually think the biggest thing you can do is have the best fulfilment in place. Like the more bandwidth you have to handle cases, the easier it is for you to market because you don’t want to be in a position where you’re getting too many leads that you can’t follow up with it, you can’t do the work for, you can’t handle. So I actually tell our clients work backwards from how many can you take and then you want to build a really strong sales process. And then you want to make sure you have tracking in place and only after you have those things, now you can spend money on marketing, because now you know that it’s being used properly. Now you know that you’re maximising it, now you can know that it’s bringing you the right cases, and you can handle those cases still in a great manner, because the last thing you want to do is get so busy with work that you end up committing malpractice.

09:09 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, I love that. Such strategic what you’re talking about there in terms of sales and tracking. So I’m a big believer in what gets measured, get done. And I think yeah, having those metrics and actually tracking them allows you to make such better decisions based on the data. But look, you know, lawyers are busy, often law firm owners are very busy and wants to utilise marketing to the maximum. So how can they work less, but get the most out of their time? The million dollar question.

09:35 Jordan Ostroff:

Yeah, no, I look, and to me, the answer is it’s simple, if not easy, right? Like you need to be selfish. You are the law firm owner and if you were burned out, you can’t help anybody, not your clients, not your employees, not your family whatever. So get selfish. Really think about like, what’s the work that I want to be doing? And if you want to be the technician, if you want to be doing the legal work great, then you hire a business manager, then you hire a marketing company. If you want to be the, you know, the head marketer of your firm, great, then you hire a business manager and you hire other lawyers to do the legal work. But the more you figure out what the jobs are that you actually want to have, the happier you’re going to be. So whether you end up spending less time, or you just enjoy the time that you’re spending at work more, that’s where you need to start, because you can always hire somebody, whether it’s a VA, whether it’s a company, whether it’s an employee, whether it’s a contractor, to do whatever you need. The problem is if you don’t know what you want to do yourself you end up not knowing who to hire to support you.

10:28 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, it’s such great advice. And this is where I always say, you know, having coaches and mentors and the right people around you in your network to, to really work that through because sometimes, you know, I always ask people, you know, what do they want? And why are they working? And sometimes they draw blank. And I think it’s really important to, to drill that down, understand what really does make you happy, what are you good at, what’s going to give you fulfilment? And then you can strategise and make a plan around all the other bits. So let’s stick with sort of strategic thinking then Jordan, why is it significant that anyone with a business to have a marketing plan? And what advice would you give to those who are just starting their marketing strategy?

11:00 Jordan Ostroff:

Sure. So look, if you were in the old west, and you’re right into this brand new town that popped up, and there’s only 2 lawyers in there, and 1 of them is, you know, Atticus Finch, God’s gift to the courtroom, and the other ones like heather an okay lawyer, but they’re a really good marketer. Guess who’s getting all the business. You know, that’s what it boils down to. And so my position is I really love it when the great lawyers also have a great marketing plan, you know, if you know that you are truly the best fit for a client, you have a moral imperative for them to know you, to find you, to talk to, to hire you. Otherwise they’re not getting the best result, you’re definitely not getting the best result, because you don’t even have the case. And so I think the more that you look at it from a standpoint of you’re doing a service to your clients by focusing your marketing on the ones you’re getting the best fit and by truly explaining that to them in a way that’s honest and genuine, the better off you’ll be from that standpoint. In terms of where you start, look, start small. You know, this is not something you need a 27-page marketing plan tomorrow. But what are you doing now? If you’re referral based, okay cool, you’re doing networking lunches, coffee, happy hours, whatever it is, keep track of those. And now if you’re doing 2 a week, try to get to 3 a week, and you know, if you’ve got 15 people you normally go to coffee with or go to lunch with, keep track of how long has it been since you’ve last seen them, and try to get to 20 people, try to get to meeting with them every you know, 3 months or 4 months, whatever the timeline looks like for you and just be a little bit more specific, you know that 1 per cent a day every day gets you like 37 per cent better over the course of the year.

12:23 Rob Hanna: 

I love that. I always talk about those fine margins. And I love that you’ve just highlighted that 1 per cent a day strategy and just really focusing on that, because if you really dive deep and take a step back, if we all did that, myself included, you know, really thought about how I could be 1 per cent better every single day, those minutiae details, you’d be amazed what and looking back on the years, what you achieved. So let’s stick with LegalEase Marketing, then Jordan, because you also specialise in automation. So you know, working with platforms like our sponsor Clio, Lawmatics and Smokeball. So what type of projects have you collaborated on there?

12:57 Jordan Ostroff:

Sure. So, does this sound like any of your listeners, or anybody watching this does this sound like you, you have that month where nobody hires you, so you are plenty of time and you call your clients back and all the potential clients, and you’re calling them, and you’re following up with them and then a bunch of them hire you. And then the next month, you get super busy. And now you stop answering the phone right there, and you stop calling people back. And then the next month, you go back to being unbusy. That’s what we try and solve from the automation standpoint. It’s really, it starts with that sales process, because the problem becomes if I’m running marketing for you on the months that you’re calling everybody a million times and closing a lot more of them, the marketing looks good. And then the next month, if you start calling the marketing looks terrible, as opposed to us like standardising that follow up. And whether it’s text messages, emails, phone calls, whether it’s over 7 days or 30 days or 90 days or 3 years, whatever that looks like, it’s gonna be different for every firm, but just having that consistency in your management system is huge on the intake. And then obviously it’s huge on the case management, you know, you wanna open every file the same way every time. You want to file the same motions on the same situations every time. You’re going put different things in the motion obviously, you wanna have the facts, that makes sense. But if you file a motion dismiss on 75 per cent of the cases you should, you’re doing a disservice to their 25 by not having an inner workflow, inner checklist, inner task list, whatever you call it. So that’s what we’re doing, is really getting consistency throughout your firm.

14:18 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, and consistency is the key word in anything folks, the more consistent you are at anything, the more successful you absolutely be. And now, time for short break from the show. Are you looking for a way to get your firm working more efficiently and profitably, while ensuring a better work life balance for your team? Well, if you haven’t considered our sponsor Clio, I’m here to strongly recommend that you do. I absolutely love working with Clio. Not only is it the world’s leading legal practice management and legal client relationship management software, it also has a really solid core mission, to transform the legal experience for all. Something I personally support. What sets Clio apart for me, it’s their dedication to customer success and support. There are lots of legal software’s out there, but I know from talking to Clio users that their support offering is miles ahead of the rest with their 24-5 availability by email, in app chat and over the phone. Yes, you can actually call in and speak to someone. Clio is also the G2 Crowd leader in legal practice management in comparison to 130 legal practice management software’s and has been for the last 14 consecutive quarters. G2 Crowd is the world’s leading business solutions review website. You can check Clio’s full list of features and pricing at www dot Clio dot com forward slash Legally dash Speaking. That’s www dot C L I O dot forward slash Legally dash Speaking. Now back to the show. So let’s go to mottos then because the motto of LegalEase Marketing is “work to make more time”. So I love it. But can you explain more about the meaning behind this?

16:16 Jordan Ostroff:

Sure. Let me go dark for a minute and I’ll backtrack, we’re all going to die. Like just flat out, it’s going to happen. And the question becomes like, what do you want to do between now and then. Obviously, I hope everybody wants that time of death to be as far in the future as possible and they want the most time possible. But are you going to sit back and say, man it was really worth it to stay at the office at 10 o’clock at night for 15 years? Are you going to say it was you know, it was okay, missing my kids recital, is it okay not being there for my spouse? And this thing because of it? And I think the answer for most people is no. There are certainly people that are genuinely motivated by working more, the problem is our industry really forces everybody to try to think that way for the billable hour, when such is that it doesn’t have to be the case. And so the smarter that you work and the more you use automation and consistency and checklist and delegation, the more time you get back as a firm owner, but also the more time your employees get back, you know, if automation is there for 30 per cent of would you need, then it’s easier for everybody else to take vacation, have sick leave, be able to get to their kids meeting an hour early, because the automation runs so much of that stuff. So the more that we can work to make more time, the more that we can use that time on whatever we want. Look you can use that time to network more, you can use that time to do more presentations, you can use that time to gauge more on social media, you can use that time for work. But we want you to not have to. We want you to have the flexibility and freedom to utilise that time for, for sports, for your own mental health, for your kids, for your family, for your friends, whatever that matter, whatever it actually matters to you more than truly your legal work.

17:42 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, it’s so true. And you know, what was going dark is the reality. I think we have to be aware of this. And, you know, time is the 1 thing we can’t get back folks. So I think I love that sort of work to make more time, it just makes perfect sense. And obviously, you’re providing a wonderful solution for the legal community with that, but you’re also the Managing Partner of Jordan Law. So tell us a bit more about that in terms of the firm and the focus.

18:05 Jordan Ostroff:

Sure. So we are a personal injury firm in Orlando, Florida. And in terms of my role, I run a modified traction level ten meeting on Mondays, I do some of our hiring decisions and I probably have another meeting throughout the course of the week and that’s about it. You know, everything else is handled by my wife who’s a lawyer, the other lawyers are up counsellors that we have, the staff etc. So it’s interesting people ask me PI questions and I’m like honestly I have no idea. For the most part, but I know who has the answer because I know it’s in our system somewhere and I know we’re doing it all the time on these cases. So it’s a, it’s always a funny conversation with other firm owners.

18:35 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, it’s so true, isn’t it because people probably assume but you’re absolutely right, you know the right people to plug them into and you know, you do whole role and have good visibility of what’s going on. Back to LegalEase Marketing then, what does the role of President involve, what does the day look like for you?

18:49 Jordan Ostroff:

For so, for the most part, I don’t do fulfilment on either of the companies, so I don’t actually do the marketing. I’m more sales and prospecting and the like overarching vision stuff. So whether it’s, you know, running our meetings, whether it’s doing the traction, you know vision traction organiser, the Gino Wickman talks about getting that stuff in place and then I do the sales calls for LegalEase to make sure that we’re getting the right clients, who have the right bandwidth and if not, then I’m pushing them to whatever free resources are out there, put them in a position to have the right foundation, to come with us, those kind of things and then otherwise I’m on shows like this, I’m talking with people online, I’m driving across country with my wife and kid and taking a million photos for social media content and our own fun and enjoyment. So it’s a, it’s been a blast man, I really can’t complain.

19:29 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, I love it. And I love as we’re recording this as well, and you’re just sort of living your, your best life right now which is, which is brilliant. And I guess, in addition to LegalEase Marketing, Jordan Law as well, correct me if I’m wrong, but you also have your shows right. So tell us a bit more about your, your show.

19:43 Jordan Ostroff:

Sure. So in sense every 1, like every 1 of those has a show. So we’ve got our own no show. We talk with other people in Orlando and really we talk about food, restaurants, day trips, things to do in Orlando, events coming up. It is absolutely 100 per cent has nothing to do with PI, which is why I think people actually listen to it, because we don’t actually talk about law in any way, shape or form. Although it’s always funny people are like, hey that restaurant’s great, also was in a car accident, can I hire you? And I’m like yeah sure, no problem. From the LegalEase side we have our Exhibit A, Exhibit A Attorneys show where we interview attorneys and other experts across the country, to talk about what it truly takes to be the Exhibit A of a successful lawyer. And so we love attorneys sharing their story. We love, you know, experts such as yourself coming on and giving us insight when it comes to hiring stuff, when it comes to finding a job, when it comes to hiring people, etc, because my goal there is, if somebody only listens to our show, which trust me, I don’t think anybody listens to all of them, I don’t think anybody only listens to our show, but hypothetically if you do, we want to have everything you need to be successful over the course of the year of the show.

20:40 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, that is a great strategic play as well that you make a point of not really talking about PI, because I think what you’re doing there is sort of, you know, it’s creating that know, like, and trust factor, likability, and as a result of that people are gonna get curious, and then they’re gonna come to you anywhere. And that sort of, secret’s out folks, why another reason we launched our Legally Speaking Podcast is we didn’t want to just turn up a legal recruiting show and just bore everyone to tears all about that. We wanted to talk about other things connected to how we can add as much value and bring thought leaders like yourself on and many other guests, to talk about what’s going on in the industry and really give some, some substance and off the back of that if people like us, get to know us, they’re probably going to inquire about how we can help them with their, with their hiring needs. So would you mind telling us? Yeah, jump in, go for it.

21:22 Jordan Ostroff:

So it’s interesting to me, we have this whole split in the marketing industry between b2c and b2b. And at the end of the day, a business is just a bunch of consumers. So for me the difference between b2b marketing versus b2c marketing is so minimal, but what you’re talking about is exactly where the b2b stuff is helpful because the business owner cares about their business proactively. A consumer doesn’t really care about their car accident proactively because they’re not in it, they don’t need it. And so that, you know, that changes your focus a little bit from a law firm owner standpoint, you know, if you are a business attorney you can do a show like Rob does, you can do a show like I do and you just target it towards your business clients because they proactively care about their own business. If you are b2c, then you got to do, you got to find the way to have interest to your ideal client, it’s something they’re going to care about before they have the specific legal need.

22:09 Rob Hanna:

I would encourage you folks if you just listen to that, go and rewind it, listen to it a couple of extra times because it’s absolutely gold what’s just been shared by Jordan, absolutely bang on. And I’ll just add as well, you know, 1 of my friends said to me recently, b2b b2c also h2h human to human, you know, we’re all humans, so trying to get that connection with people is so, so important because from connection leads conversation, from conversation leads potential deals, and long-term partnerships and relationships and all of that good stuff. So, personal branding, we touched on it a bit before but what does personal branding mean to you? You gave a definition of marketing before, what’s your sort of definition, or what does personal branding mean to you?

22:47 Jordan Ostroff:

How do you as an individual stand out. And I intentionally I’m using word stand out because good personal branding will attract people and it will repel people. Good personal branding is that magnet, it’s got the poles and they do opposite things. Because you don’t want everybody to like you, you want your ideal client to love you. And you do that through your personality and your personal branding.

23:07 Rob Hanna:

I love that because it’s so true, you know, you got to stand out. We’re in competitive markets. And if you’re gonna go with the personal branding, you do not want absolutely everybody to like you. Frankly, that’s, that’s not the way to go about this because if you’re being your true authentic self as well, not everyone is going to like absolutely everything that you might be sharing or thinking of sharing as part of your personal brand. So absolutely bang on, love that. So would you mind giving us a few examples or an example of how you’ve used your platforms to promote your personal brand?

23:40 Jordan Ostroff:

So I am wearing a Hawaiian shirt. That is my thing from the LegalEase standpoint. I have the benefit of being a lawyer, so I don’t, so I know like a lot of marketers that aren’t lawyers dress up so they fit in with a lawyer mentality. I have a bar card in Florida, so I can actually dress down to stand out from everybody else who is trying to wear a suit. So I wear Hawaiian shirts, this 1 actually has my kid on it, so it’s my favourite 1. My sister had it custom made for us through somebody on Etsy. And as part of that, I wear shorts, I wear flip flops, like I’m from Florida, I am dressed for the beach at any given time. I get a ton of people that are like, you don’t seem like you take this seriously. And I always tell them, thank you, I don’t, you’re totally correct. And so it was like, it was somebody else, that’s totally fine. You know, at the end of the day, there’s a time for us to take things seriously. But there’s a time to have fun and have a life. And that’s what I want to push. So I’m trying to get my personal brand out there as driving across country with my wife and kid for 13 months, as wearing the Hawaiian shirt, as working 2 days a week. And that’s going to drive a ton of people away. But the people it that attracts are the people that really vibe with who I am, and therefore they become great clients for us because they see things the way that we see because we help them stand out in their own genuine and authentic way as opposed to, you know, being in a suit in front of, of, whatever library of law books, like you saw for saw many years first in the marketing industry, that’s not I want, you don’t need me for that. You can get that done cheaper for somebody that doesn’t have the creative thinking that we have. When you want to find your version of Hawaiian shirts, shorts, flip flops, your version of the drive across the country with your family, or version of working 2 days a week, that’s when we become a great fit for you because you like my personal brand, and we’ll help you figure out your personal brand from there.

25:18 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, and I absolutely love everything you’re saying. And the word that really resonates with me, and whether you have an opinion on that 1 way or the other, but I certainly support that was the word fun. Because if you’re not having fun on what you do, that will lead to burnout or it leads to stress, there’s enough stress and pressures in any way in the working world. We’re dealing with clients, particularly being in the legal profession. But it’s so important that we do have fun and we do bring that originality, that human side to work. And I love that and your shirt is awesome. And I’ve just noticed that it, yeah, it’s got the, the imprint there of your, your son, I’m probably gonna be asking about the link for that so I can get 1, so I can have 1 with my daughter on, that’d be pretty cool. And so let’s stick with sort of cool advancements and tech because we are in an age of technology and innovation. How can we take advantage of social media to leverage our personal brands? How can individuals stand out from the crowd? We’ve talked about the importance of that, but what are some of the practical tips you would give when it comes to social media?

26:10 Jordan Ostroff:

You know, the thing for me is the benefit of social media is how, not how, how not new it is, like the technology is new. But you got to think about this, from like, the first caveman creating a business of some vendor trading a wheel for fire, whatever it was, all the way to like the 1850s, we marketed our companies the exact same way in social media. You’re marketing them on a person to person basis, because it’s not until the industrial revolution we really get into these mass produced goods, which therefore needed more marketing technique which needed more billboards, which needed more getting in front of everybody whatsoever. So for social media, go back to that, like you talked about, I love to use that h to h, human to human, that’s social media, like your social media posts is, I have created a fake client avatar that is my ideal client, and I am speaking to them in a 1 on 1 conversation. If 100 people see it, great, if 1000 people see it great, if a million people see it great. But if just that 1 ideal client sees it and resonates with them, fantastic. Like that is the goal to it. And the more you are genuine with who you are, and the more you are talking to that specific person, the more fun you make social media, the less you have to worry about what trending audio is good for this 15 minutes on TikTok, before it becomes popular on Instagram, in 2 weeks for an hour, you can get out of a lot of that crap and just go back to having a conversation with another human, it just happens to have a computer screen in-between.

27:31 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, and I love that. And that also will help from not worrying too much about vanity metrics and all of these other things because that 1, that 1 person that it resonates or lands with, that’s the key folks, like that’s, that conversation. That’s that connection that I think we’re all trying to look for when we’re trying to do business with new and indeed existing clients and trying to further business develop with our existing clients. So this has been a fascinating conversation Jordan. So finally, which I’m sure lots of people will, if our listeners would like to learn more about LegalEase Marketing, where can they find out more and where can they also make purchase?

28:01 Jordan Ostroff:

Sure, so LegalEase Marketing dot com. And it’s E A S E. So even the company is a dad joke on LegalEase E S E or  E A S E marketing dot com, you can look at a bunch of offerings there. Honestly connect with me on LinkedIn, there’s only 2 Jordan Ostroff’s in the country. The other guy is a really good salesperson in Boston. He gets a ton of job interviews. Not interviews, ton of job offers that come to me. So he’s doing something right. I’m not, if he gets job offers for me I have no idea. Nobody’s ever got back to me on it. But I’m the 1 with the beard, with the marketing stuff, so I post at least once a day on LinkedIn, you’ll get a good feel for my vibe, if you think I’m not serious enough and a jerk and doing all the talking about, okay cool, you got a million other options. If you like the focus on being happy first and being great lawyer second, and that you know the benefit of those things then I’m your guy.

28:47 Rob Hanna:

Perfect, then obviously you mentioned LinkedIn as your social media platform probably of choice as well, are there any other web links or anything else you’d like us to share with this episode for you too or mention?

28:55 Jordan Ostroff:

I mean, look, if you want to follow the trip in a little bit more detail, you can follow me on Instagram at a lawyer with a life or on Facebook, also still Jordan Ostroff. So, I’m out there, you know, reach out, happy to chat with everybody and hopefully get you on the right path towards having a successful firm that makes you happy.

29:12 Rob Hanna:

Yeah, I love that. Thank you so much, Jordan. It’s been absolutely fantastic listening to you. And you know, you’re practicing what you’re preaching and just hearing how happy you are and what you’re doing. And you know how you’re trying to pass that on to so many other people. So wishing you lots of continued success with your business, your career and indeed your lifestyle. But for now, from all of us on the Legally Speaking Podcast, over and out.

29:38 Rob Hanna:

Thank you for listening to this week’s episode. If you liked the content here, why not check out our world leading content and collaboration hub, the Legally Speaking Club over on Discord. Go to our website www dot Legally Speaking Podcast dot com for the link to join our community there. Over and out.