If you’ve ever thought that there should be a better way for lawyers to work, this episode is for you. Your host, Rob Hanna, was joined by Maurus Schreyvogel, the Legal Function Consulting Leader in Europe West at EY, to talk about his role in legal innovation and operations, where he pushes the boundaries of what can be done in the sector.  

So why should you be listening in?  

You can hear Rob and Maurus discussing: 

• Switzerland’s place in the legal tech landscape 
• The difference between legal innovation and legal operations 
• How legal tech innovations will transform the industry 
• The changing role of technology in legal operations 
• Advice for aspiring legal operations professionals 

Transcript

Rob Hanna 00:00 

So a very big, warm welcome. Maurus. 

Maurus Schreyvogel 00:03 

Thank you very much. Rob, great to be here. 

Rob Hanna 00:05 

Oh, it’s an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. Before we dive into all your amazing projects, experiences to date, we do have a customary icebreaker question here on the legally speaking podcast, which is on the scale of one to 1010, being very real, what would you rate the hit TV series suits in terms of its reality of the law on the scale of one to 10 if you’ve seen it? 

Maurus Schreyvogel 00:31 

Thank you for that question. I would probably give it a three to four. 

Rob Hanna 00:38 

Is there anything you would like to justify that answer, or should we move swiftly on?  

Maurus Schreyvogel 00:43 

Well, I, you know, I think kind of the type of work, and the way the work is being done is completely, you know, out of reality, but how some of the characters behave I’ve seen in the past, came across those characters in my career as well, so I enjoyed watching it a couple of times, but I’m not familiar with the entire sequence. 

Rob Hanna 01:12 

I think your answer and justification is completely verified, and with that, we should move swiftly on to talk all about you. So would you mind Maurus telling us a bit about your background and career journey?  

Maurus Schreyvogel 01:26 

Yes. So I’m a Swiss law in their background. I started in a mid-sized Swiss law firm. Spent there only two years, because I was not very good at it, and moved in house because I was just missing. I was missing the link to purpose of what I was doing in the law firm, and couldn’t find that in an in-house council position either. So I resigned, and there was a person within the company who hold me back and suggested that if I don’t like to be an in house counsel, there are other things that I could could bring to the organization. And I was transferred into the internal audit function, which I trusted that person, that this would be a good thing, but didn’t really think it’s a great idea at the outset, and then I audited the company in North America, in Latin America, and in Europe. And that was a two year period, and I’ve learned so much during that period of time. And then I’ve received an opportunity to audit the legal function, and that brought me back. That all that brought me back into the legal function, where I started in a legal operations role that was back in 2007 at a point in time where the term legal operations wasn’t coined yet. So I was, I think I was, I had the role of a project manager, but the ability to create legal operations from the ground up. And that was everything. That was a great journey, that was a horrible journey that was incredibly frustrating, but ultimately, as I progressed, really rewarding, because the people who understood the value that I brought to the organization was a growing population, and I was really lucky with the general councils that I’ve been working for up to a point where I collected enough self confidence and confidence in what it is that I do. So I left the in house position and joined my current position, where I’m focusing on helping legal functions to transform the way they work. 

Rob Hanna 04:33 

Yeah, and thank you for giving such a refreshingly authentic, honest overview of your career. Because, like you said you found very early on what you thought you’d be good at, and things perhaps you didn’t enjoy, and environments you’ve been in. And you know, a career is never straightforward. You have to navigate certain challenges opportunities, and you’ve done a tremendous job of that, and you’ve obviously done I’m going to talk about more your transformation role just shortly, but I want to sort of take you back. To the why, if you like, in terms of what inspired you to pursue a career in law. Originally, because you completed your global, international Executive MBA in Madrid, you did your masters in law in Switzerland. What was the Yeah, what was that real reason for you pursuing a career in the law?  

Maurus Schreyvogel 05:16 

Honest answer, I was probably 13 years old when I decided that I wanted to go into law because it looked like a very prestigious position to have. I enjoyed law school. I I thought it’s it’s a good topic to to to add value to the environment within which you’re operating. And then when I started working, I I struggled with the fact that I never saw the whole thing, and I never had time to understand and see the background of what it is that I was doing and that slowed me down. That actually made me a not very good lawyer, because I needed extra time. And if you’re billing by, you know, increments of six minutes time is not something you have or goes against, you know, the KPIs you’re working against. So I didn’t feel I could operate well within that environment. And at that time, you know, that was not subject to discussion. I had to fit into that system or not. So that was a very difficult decision for me to admit I’m not very good at it. So early on in my career, the why wasn’t selected. It was selected for me, if you if you want to go that way. And when I had the opportunity to come back into law with a skill set that I’ve picked up during my time in audit, this was a very, very precious moment for me, because I realized the profession that I selected has use for people with my background, for people like me, nevertheless.

Rob Hanna 07:37 

Yeah, and there is always space for for Somebody in the right environment. And again, thank you for giving a refreshingly open and honest account of your career journey, and that’s what we really look for on the legal speaking podcast. Let’s fast forward to a bit more of the present, then, because you mentioned, you know, the term operations and project manager, you’re very early, and I think you’re an innovator. You’re always looking forward. You’re looking for change, and it’s never easy. You know, the title sounds sexy, but the work that’s involved isn’t always quite so sexy. So, you know, as an emir, legal transformation leader, what does your role entail? 

Maurus Schreyvogel 08:12 

I think the point where, where, where it clicked, where I really understood how I needed to approach driving change was when I understood what it is that I need to appeal the people that I’m working with for and I was trying to convince people that they need technology. I was trying to convince people that they need Process Engineering. They looked at it because I had some level of formal power, but they never really walked with me up to the point where we realized we need to do this differently. We need to give them a purpose and a why they should consider changing the way they worked. And we’ve had and that was at my time with Novartis, we had this situation where the the business was accelerating, and we needed the legal professionals to be ready and to to support this acceleration phase with the same level of resources. So the the offer for the team to suggest, hey guys, there is this really important work where you can touch the lives of the patients of the company, but you can only do that if you’re willing to let go of some. The activities for which we can find alternative ways to process them. And this is where everything changed, in terms of me pushing innovation onto people, to the team, approaching me, pulling in my capabilities to say, look, we have this, this, this activity that we do that consumes a lot of resources, and we don’t think it makes a lot of difference to the organization, but on the other hand, we would really like to support these new product launches, and this is when a ecosystem was forming within which we were able to reimagine how we work and where we had to stakeholders on board, not because it was, you know, possible to do, but because they wanted to do it for the right reasons. 

Rob Hanna 11:01 

Yeah, and I love that. And I love that you went to the the why, you know, I was thinking about when you’re trying to influence people or think about things, you know, wi FTM, what’s in it for me, everyone’s favorite radio station, and you really articulated that. And even to go a step further, you know, your Why should make you cry, like, really go deep people to really understand, like, particularly in the health sector, like you said, it’s important work that can have real positive impacts for good. And we also talk a lot about Tech for Good on the show. And again, give me some great examples of that. So let’s go to the present day, then, with EY as a sort of, you know, law partner across a mere legal transformation leader, talk us through what a typical day looks like for you? 

Maurus Schreyvogel 11:39 

A typical day for me involve has probably three elements that I that I need to to work on to further develop. One is research and development into, you know, our service portfolio. The second one is our talent, and the third one is is our clients, our business partners. And I’m trying to devote, you know, an equal amount of time into all of those three areas, because I believe we’re we’re so fast paced, but we are right now. We cannot develop a market offering and then sell that for the next five years. We constantly need to be on our toes to look at our service offering, adjust it, take into account the technological advances, so that our offering is really state of the art. At the same time, we need to bring our talent up to that point. We have a lot of experienced people, but the the time where you can become experienced in you know, the latest and greatest becomes really, really thin. So we need to reimagine our entire talent development and and how we allocate talent to projects. And then finally, you know, there is, there is a delivery component with, with clients, but then there is also the component of, and now it’s a fine line between provoking and inspiring, that that you need to hit just right in order for them not just to be inspired and be in A good mood, but for them to actually understand that they can have a significant impact on their organization if they take the risk and start acting towards transforming their functions or part of the function, or a specific contribution that they have to the organization. 

Rob Hanna 14:21 

Yeah. And I always say, and it says many times on the show, collaboration is domination. So the more that you can get people to really understand the impact they’re happening having as part of the wider team, that broad collaboration, you can go on to do transformative things, which you you absolutely are, and that you know, the only constant in business is change. And again, you’re always looking forward. You can’t stand till when you’re looking at talent, you can’t stand still. Stand still when you’re looking at sort of research and development. And the day you think you’re ahead is the worry, you know, you’ve got to be continuously thinking about that, and competition is fierce. And you know, we’re in a revolution now, with AI and so many things going on. And I love your thought process and your approach to business. Is there a particular, memorable project you’ve worked on? That you would like to share with our audience, or one that stood out to you from over the years you’re proud of.  

Maurus Schreyvogel 15:04 

It’s probably the worst project for me, but a really cool project in terms of outcome. Let’s see what I can do that really quickly. So a procurement function approached us to say, look, we have 3000 procurement transaction we always go to three suppliers. So that is 9000 non disclosure agreements that we need to do in order to protect our information that we give out to our supplies. Can you automate that process for us? That was the ask. What we ultimately did is we included the secrecy obligation to the click through agreement that every supplier had to go through in order to log in to the procurement platform. And that change, in kind of the technical cost of that change, I think, was five, 6000 euros to explain to everybody that a non disclosure agreement is no longer needed, but it’s covered in this click through agreement and when probably this is not good enough, when you might want a non disclosure agreement because it’s of strategic value to the company. What is currently being done that was probably worth another 25k and that’s it. We’ve saved that organization in year 170 1000 hours of work.

Rob Hanna 17:02 

And time is our precious commodity. It’s the only thing none of us can get back. And I think that’s a really good example. And some of us may know I started my journey in the procurement recruitment world. So I used to do a lot of recruiting for heads of procurement, chief procurement officers, strategic sourcing managers, you name it, category managers. But that was a different life ago. I’d like to keep on the theme of tech, because you hold quite a few different hats. You’re the vice president of the Swiss legal tech association. So would you mind telling us a bit more about what the organization is all about and its mission? Please. 

Maurus Schreyvogel 17:34 

Sure. So the the slta, the Swiss legal tech Association is a group of visionaries in the technological landscape that focuses on helping the Swiss legal market to accelerate its development over the time, we moved out of the just tech corner, and we now aspire, as a association to not, you know, have conferences or materials from geeks for geeks, that we’re trying to organize ourselves in a way that we have the geeks talking to the general practitioners, talking to citizens, talking to other interested people, in order to accelerate how innovation is being accepted, is being followed through within a dismiss market and trying to be inclusive. By doing that by having a presence in the Swiss German, the French speaking, the French speaking the Italian speaking part of Switzerland, who you know, are slightly different in terms of how the legal field works. The French speaking part is probably more closely oriented towards the French market, and the same with German speaking and Italian speaking. So, so that’s a little bit the britching that we’re trying to do as an association to support all players in the legal ecosystem of Switzerland.  

Rob Hanna 19:31 

And you’re doing a tremendous job, it has to be said. And it’s very exciting to see all the great work that you’re you’re doing, I know, most recently, the Swiss legal tech Association and I believe the Ministry of Justice of South Korea met in Zurich for an exchange on all things legal technology. So what other initiatives has the association been involved with? And I guess there’s a follow up question to that, how do you see Switzerland positioning itself globally in the legal tech landscape?  

Maurus Schreyvogel 20:00 

Wow. Okay, so I think the the flagship event of the Swiss legal tech association is the legal innovation that takes place every other year. That’s a Zurich based event that targets general practitioners to enter, during a one day event, into dialog with all members of the ecosystem. Besides that, we have different kinds of chapters, especially proud of the student chapters, because that’s, you know, the future of our profession, and we’re offering quite an exchange from the current practitioners to the future practitioners in those chapters where we’re organizing smaller events like breakfast or lunch round tables to bring those people together. And you know, it’s this exchange that is, that that makes it so, so valuable, also the exchange, you know, across the language barriers that that we’re attempting to do, and also, of course, collaborating with like minded association so we can support each other’s events, support each other’s publications. Because at the end of the day, law might be national, but the field of legal innovation is truly international and doesn’t know any borders. 

Rob Hanna 21:42 

Oh, I love that. That’s a quote I’m sure we’ll be using for this episode. I like to dumb things down as well for all of our listeners. So for those who might be a little bit unfamiliar, what’s the basic difference between legal operations and legal innovation? In your view?

Maurus Schreyvogel 22:00 

There’s probably a gazillion answers to that question. For me, legal operation has as an ultimate goal to bring in operational excellence in a specific activity. Legal innovation, on the other hand, is has its goal in reimagining how we work. So the idea of, you know, no longer do an NDA, I thought, was quite an innovative approach. The execution of it required operational excellence so that we did it in the best way possible. So this is where those two topics go hand in hand, but, but I think not everybody who is involved in legal operations appreciates the strategic importance of the role that they have and are not yet at the level where they’re a, you know, a wingman to the general counsel or to the chief legal officer in rethinking everything but, but many of us are still, you know, focused on, on sideshows like E billing, like matter management. It’s all important, but it doesn’t move the needle of practicing law. And this is where, where I think hopefully we will make a lot of progress over these next couple of months, bringing those two topics closer together. 

Rob Hanna 23:52 

And I think you will, and I love your overarching mission, which is to build a better working world by examining and redefining the business of law to help global organizations simplify and increase affordability to access law services. Love that. So can you just elaborate a little bit more on what that vision means to you specifically and how it shapes then your approach to legal innovation?

Maurus Schreyvogel 24:18 

Look for me, and that probably drives my environment, my wife, not. If I can see that something can be done better, I will not stop until it’s done better. This can be around the house, which is the annoying part of my family, but, but this is, this is very true. And that’s going back to to what I picked up in audit every function had something like, you know, a continuous improvement program that’s still very foreign to the legal world. And I do believe that what we do is incredibly important. But not everybody has access to it, and that’s for the wrong reasons. And there is a lot of value that legal professionals bring to society, but right now it’s not priced properly. I think there’s a lot of services that are too inexpensive, and there’s a lot of services that are far too expensive, and this is where I think that that is the aim, to be confident into the future, to say, don’t worry if you’re only making 10% on a specific activity going forward, because today, we only access 20 to 30% of the overall market that is out there. And I’m always of the opinion that I’d rather shape my environment than being shaped by the environment. So embracing services, you know, like flight right, or all these other services that help consumers to get to their rights is something that I think we urgently need to do, and need to build on these types of ideas, because there’s a lot of legal advice, legal support that companies shy away from seeking, but then have eventually, you know, these, these huge legal invoices if they end up in litigation. And this is something where we can bring in law by design to activities, if we find the right cost level in order to do that. And that’s my aspiration, you know, to get it right from the get go. 

Rob Hanna 26:59 

Yeah, yeah. And I love your proactive over reactive approach as well. You know, in terms of wanting to be the the innovator, the person pushing things forward for the solution, rather than pointing at the problem, you kind of touched on it. But what are the most exciting legal tech innovations you have come across over the years, and how do you envision them transforming the legal profession?  

Maurus Schreyvogel 27:20 

I think bringing something as simple as robotic process automation into the law has made significant improvements to many organizations. And clearly there is no AI, a very limited AI to it, and people want to move on, want to do fancier things than that, but I wouldn’t underestimate the power of that in order to increase quality and also the kind of the efficiency in what it is that We do, and there is a lot of companies involved in doing that, specific for the legal industry, but then going beyond that to realizing that general technology can do that as well, and then the understanding might it be even better if we don’t have our own siloed legal system, but if we joined in to a company end to end process, and would use, you know, standardized process automation or workflow technology in order to cover a specific, you know, end to end goal. So from that perspective, I think it was needed to do that detour. But I think a lot of you know general technology or enterprise technology benefits the legal function a lot then you know, I’m, I’m fascinated about, you know, the dispute resolution system of Ebay. I find this is something really important that they do. They have a core offering, but they stick to their clients, if you will, in good times the case the base transaction, but also in bad times, when something goes wrong, they don’t say now you need to seek a public court. They have a solution for that point as well, and that’s exactly the same thing that I’d like to translate into more and more businesses. Why do we need flight right? Why can’t an airline support their clients in good and in bad times with a claims portal? Some airlines do that, but, but I think this. Is where we will be going to we don’t need to be afraid necessarily from alternative legal services providers. When you’re working in a law firm, you need to be expecting that more and more businesses will cover their client journey from the beginning to the end, including the times where things might not go as planned. And I think that’s quite an innovative approach that I don’t know the year, but eBay is doing that for probably more than a decade, and I think that’s the reason, or one of the reasons why they’re so successful. 

Rob Hanna 30:42 

Yeah, and it’s, it’s, it’s client first, isn’t it at all times. And you know, I really like that, because the people matter, and if you look after the people that look after you through good, bad and the challenging times, talking of challenging what are in your view, the biggest challenges in promoting legal innovation on a global scale, and how are you working to try and overcome some of those? 

Maurus Schreyvogel 31:04 

So the challenge that we need to overcome is that the industry as such is doing incredibly well. So we have this situation where you need to change something that ain’t broken yet, and there is, to a certain extent, a different status to the profession that will ultimately follow some of the changes that We are doing. So there is a lot of fear of what’s happened to the profession that I’ve chosen, very likely for very specific reasons, and to overcome that, you know, I face on a daily basis as something we need to go back to the why, as we discussed before, for people to understand and feel comfortable, why this is good for their career, why this is good for for their stakeholders to engage and to collaborate on those changes. The second thing that that we need to learn is to to experiment more. We’ve received very powerful tools, very powerful technical, technological capabilities. But we can’t, I know, continue the same way we work today, and just use those tools. We need to rethink or reimagine how legal services look like, while embedding those capabilities. And a lot of people are very quick in saying, I tried that. It hallucinated. It’s not good enough yet. I’ll sit back and wait until someone has figured it out clearly an approach to take, probably in favor of those who like the current state, but it’s an incredibly interesting time right now, because now you can be every one of us can be making the important contribution to such a change which will change everything, and this is we should be far more happier than most of us are right now, because we are being given the key. We just need to use it and be courageous enough to step into these new ropes. 

Rob Hanna 33:58 

Yeah, and that’s the thing, isn’t it is having that courage to be comfortable with the environment that may be shaping changing moving forwards. And you know, just embrace, embrace, embrace. And also the power of words. When you said the word rethink, I was like, okay, but then you say reimagine, your mind just opens up to a broader perspective. And so the vocabulary and words you use and the people you’re around to inspire infant change. Those little things are so important. It’s why you’re such a leader in this space. And we’re really keen to hold the conversation with you today, and I guess talking of leadership and events and everything like that, you’re also one of the CO organizers of legal innovation. What were your motivations behind co organizing legal innovation, and what are the key goals you’re hoping to achieve from it? 

Maurus Schreyvogel 34:40 

It’s very simple, having a day with an audience that doesn’t yet think along, you know, kind of doesn’t, doesn’t think about legal innovation yet. So the conference V. Really is focused on general practitioners who come there because they are curious. And I’m investing time in it to accelerate, because in one day, we usually get 250 to 300 people. In one day, I can make so many people at least think or consider how they will go back to the office the next day that I think it’s totally worth the incredible investment of organizing a day like that. The entire slta team, of course, puts in a lot of work. Yanis Martinez, who is the CO organizer, and I we’re leveraging our entire network in order to get the right people, to convince people to travel to Switzerland to talk to us, this is a lot of fun that you know, it’s, it’s, it’s giving back a little bit as as well, trying to to do something where There’s no commercial interest, trying to keep the cost of the conference down to a minimum, so that we can have as many as people possible benefit, you know, from the great speakers that we organize for the day. 

Rob Hanna 36:33 

And I love that ethos. So, you know, once you reach teach right, send the elevator back down. Help people give back. We’re all for that, because we need to share knowledge, you know, and that’s important. So it’s great that you do put on legal innovation. Obviously, you’ve had some tremendous conferences to date. What have you got planned for the next one? Can you give us a sneak peek or things that you’re thinking about for the next legal innovation?  

Maurus Schreyvogel 36:56 

I can’t really, you know, not because I don’t want to, because Yanis and I, you know, do that, besides of our day work, and once the conference is over, I wouldn’t call it a depression, but we had to catch up on so many other things that that had to wait because we were working towards that date, and given it only takes place in a year from now, we’re about starting the, you know, the planning of the conference in the next couple of weeks. What I can say already is that we continue to focus on the client, because that, you know, that was the key theme this year, and I think it’s so incredibly important, and it’s not done very often, that you put the client in the center of everything that we that we certainly want to pick up on that theme again, at least for part of the conference. 

Rob Hanna 38:12 

Absolutely. And I would encourage our listeners also to go and check out Jack Newton, CEO of Clio, obviously support the show and his book, The client centered law firm, because I think everything you’re talking about being client centered, you know, what’s the most important client you’ve got, the one you’ve already got right look after the ones you’ve got. Give them the best service. Double down on that. Don’t be too transfix on new business. Of course, we want new business. Want to grow and scale, but do not neglect the current clients. And think about how you can add that value and then continue to scale. So I love your mindset. I love about your approach to evolving industries. Change your business legal technology is evolving rapidly, and we’re seeing that more and more now. How do you see the role of technology in legal operations changing over the next half a decade, decade and beyond? 

Maurus Schreyvogel 38:52 

If I, if I look a little bit further, I think, and then this, of course, is really, is really easy to get it wrong, but, but one thing that I, that I clearly see, Is that legal departments will shrink again, that maybe legal departments will no longer be legal functions, but will be supporting business end to end processes wherever there is need for a legally trained person. I think that would meet the needs of organizations and their clients better. And then there is a really narrow team that enables this from happening. That’s not a legal operations group, as we understand right now, that’s a highly skilled, you know, subject matter legal team. Plus legal operators, plus legal technologists, plus legal strategists sitting somewhere helping these kind of guerrilla troops within the organizations to succeed. What does that mean for law firms? I also think they will be, they will continue to be really important in terms of, you know, the subject matter and strategic advice. I do think there is a certain segment of activities that will fall away, which will force all of us to to rethink, how do we train, how do we give, you know, on the job, education to our unexperienced colleagues. And this is where I see a little bit of a shift, that there will no longer be the law firm partner track, the in house track, but it hopefully will become far more volatile. And eventually the journey will change that you go first in house, then you go to law firm, and then at some point, you decide whether you want to become a subject matter expert or whether you want to become a generalist, and this is the determining factor of how your career will progress. Needless to say, I focused on law firm and in house. When I say Law Firm, I’m thinking of all the legal services providers and technology companies who are all equally important to that also important, I think that we will see more movements into the government agencies, because I think the the exchange with them will be equally important. Lastly, I didn’t speak about courts so far. So far, I’m hoping that with the change towards operational excellence, that the court will see a relief and will have less, you know, standard cases that they will need to to address, that that they can go back to, to being called for, The cases where they’re they’re really needed. But also there a lot of change will come, because they will get access. They already today have access to tools that will help them make their judgments in a far more informed and objective way, maybe even beyond country laws, if that’s appropriate, because that possibility we now have. 

Rob Hanna 43:09 

Yeah, and it’s, it’s a watch this space, but I definitely like your your thinking and reasoning there on where you see things going and giving some good sort of careers advice, and I guess on that, what would be your one piece of final advice to aspiring professionals looking to enter the world of legal operations or legal innovation? What advice would you be giving them based on your journey thus far? Maybe your best piece of advice? 

Maurus Schreyvogel 43:36 

You know, be purpose driven and be forward looking I think if we look back, we lose or looking back is always important, if you orient back, that could hinder progress. And right now, I think it’s okay to forget about certain things that are normal right now, because I do think we will not practice law in any way similar to what we do today in 10 years from now. 

Rob Hanna 44:16 

And I love your thinking. And you know, I was listening to a podcast the other day where someone said, you know, rational thinking is good, it’s rational, but it’s not going to beat the competition. Irrational thinking is going to beat the competition. And reimagining and all the things that you’ve said today, Maris has been an absolute masterclass, start to finish, and I knew it was going to be and I was excited to get you on the show if our listeners want to learn more about your career, the Swiss legal tech Association, or indeed, legal innovation. Where can they go to find out more information? Feel free to share any websites or any social media handles. We’ll also share them with this link for you. This episode for you too, and 

Maurus Schreyvogel 44:52 

unfortunately, not that organized, so probably, probably the best place in. To get the links to everything that I do will be on my LinkedIn profile, where I’m trying to keep on top of everything that that is happening, you know, and else, I mean, the Swiss legal tech Association web page has a lot of great content on it, so that’s also worthwhile visiting. And that’s, yeah, that’s probably it. 

Rob Hanna 45:38 

There we have it, short and sweet, I like it well. It just leads me to say, thank you so much once again, Maris for joining us. It’s been an absolute pleasure having you on the legally speaking podcast, but from all of us now, wishing you a lot to continue success with your career and indeed, future pursuits and outlook on the world of law over and out.