Mental health is a collective responsibility, especially in the high-stakes legal world.

This week, I’m joined by Elizabeth Rimmer, CEO of Lawcare, a charity dedicated to supporting the mental wellbeing of legal professionals. Elizabeth shares insights on breaking the stigma, fostering healthier workplaces and the essential signs that it’s time for you to prioritise your mental health.

If you’re ready to open up on the conversation on mental wellbeing in law, this episode is for you. Go give it a listen now!

So why should you be listening in? 

You can hear Rob and Elizabeth discussing:

• Lawcare’s Role in Legal Professionals’ Mental Health
• The Pandemic’s Impact on Career Reflections
• Elizabeth’s Career Journey
• Challenges in Clinical Negligence law
• Job Transitions and Unexpected Opportunities

Connect with Elizabeth here

Transcript

We offer that safe, impartial space to talk.

00:03

Living and working through a pandemic I think made many people reflect on their lives and what they want from work, what they want from their relationships.

00:11

What is it that really makes us happy?

00:13

We’ve been here since 1997.

00:16

We have listened to 10s of thousands of people in law talk about their struggles.

00:21

So there’s probably very little that we haven’t heard before.

00:26

So if you say I’m a trainee solicitor.

00:28

In a city law firm and I’ve just moved into my second seat and I’m not sure I want to do this anymore.

00:34

We know what that means.

00:35

On today’s Legally Speaking podcast, I’m delighted to be joined by Elizabeth Rimmer.

00:39

Elizabeth is the CEO of Lawcare, a mental health charity.

00:43

Lawcare supports and promotes mental well-being in the legal community.

00:47

Elizabeth studied law at the College of Law and has an MA in Medical Law and Ethics from King’s College London.

00:53

She also has a BSc in Zoology.

00:55

Elizabeth qualified as a clinical negligence solicitor at Lee Day.

00:59

She was then executive Director for the Alzheimer’s Disease International and the.

01:04

Of group analysis before joining Lawcare so a very big warm welcome Elizabeth thanks very much Rob it’s really great to be here Oh, it’s an absolute pleasure to have you on the show before we dive into all the amazing work you are doing, we do have a customary ice break question here on the legally speaking podcast, which is on the scale of one to 1010 being very real, what would you rate the hit TV series suits in terms of its reality of the law if you’ve seen it I have not watched it I’m.

01:34

So I can’t answer your question.

01:38

And that we’re going to give it a zero and move swiftly.

01:41

I think that’s all I can do to be fair.

01:43

Yeah.

01:44

Yeah.

01:44

Absolutely justified.

01:46

Zero.

01:46

And let’s get on to talking all about you.

01:49

Would you mind telling our listeners about your background and career journey?

01:53

Yeah, So I started my working life as a solicitor.

01:59

Although I have a slight accent, people always ask me about that.

02:02

I am British.

02:03

I was born in London.

02:04

I was born in Woolwich, SE London.

02:08

But I grew up living overseas and going to school wherever we lived because of my dad’s job.

02:14

So I came back to the UK when I was 15, part way through my O levels that dates me, which was now TCS but.

02:23

British, and I’m a Londoner really, although I don’t really sound it.

02:30

Yeah, so I started my working life as a solicitor and then I was in the law for a few years and then I moved on into working in the charity sector.

02:39

Yeah.

02:39

Yeah.

02:39

And you’ve been doing some incredible work for for many years now.

02:44

But I want to cast your mind back to the world of zoology, which I found quite interesting because you, you studied law and, and MA and medical law and ethics and ABSD in zoology.

02:55

So where did that interest in zoology stem from?

02:57

Yeah, so I, I did.

02:59

I actually.

03:01

A good question, I often wonder how I lined up with zoology.

03:04

Well I know how I landed up with the zoology great.

03:06

I did science, A levels, biology, chemistry and maths and biology was my favourite A level and not really knowing what I wanted to do I started a general biology degree.

03:19

And I then really liked the professor who was the head of the zoology department.

03:26

And so I switched courses in my second year just so I could have tutorials.

03:32

He was a very eminent immunologist.

03:36

Coincidentally, his daughter landed up marrying a very good friend of mine, but that’s another story.

03:43

And so although I have a degree in zoology, I didn’t actually do much, by the way, of animal studies.

03:50

I really did genetics and biochemistry, but because I got the degree in the department of zoology on classified as having a zoology degree.

04:00

But if you ask me anything to do with the sorts of animals you might see in a zoo, I really couldn’t help you with that.

04:08

So it’s a bit of a, a misnomer, I think.

04:11

So it’s purely because I was in that department.

04:14

I’ve got a zoology degree.

04:16

There we have it.

04:17

Well, if you were to ask me which animal should see in the zoo with a young toddler, I’m pretty well informed.

04:23

Actually, I spent quite a long week.

04:27

Blackpool Zoo.

04:28

Yeah, going around, but appreciate you, you sharing that because we all have our own stories and, and and journeys.

04:34

And that was obviously pre clinical negligence.

04:36

So you then went on to qualify as a clinical negligence solicitor.

04:40

So what cases did you deal with there and what aspects of the work did you most enjoy about that?

04:45

After my degree, I decided I almost actually went down the path of being an academic.

04:50

I had a place to do a PhD in molecular biology Sounds very.

04:56

Intellectual, but I changed my mind and I ducked out of that and I thought I’ve always had an interest in law.

05:02

So that’s how I landed up going on the law path and then.

05:07

My clinical negligence work, I worked at Lee Day, so I was very lucky to be there because at that time Sarah Lee was one of the pioneering clinical negligence solicitors in the country and I was her trainee and I got kept on in her department.

05:21

So I was beside myself that I had found myself in this kind of top law firm for doing that kind of work.

05:28

Yeah, the work we did was really varied so I did some work on the breast implant cases about women who had silicon breast implants and the.

05:37

The damage that had caused to them as a result of those going wrong.

05:42

I did quite a lot of child birth injury cases.

05:48

And I did a number of cases of people who had died during surgical procedures.

05:55

Alongside that, we were also encouraged to do inquest work.

06:00

So I acted on a number of inquests for people who died in custody or in prison and all quite difficult stuff.

06:09

And an really interesting piece of work that I got to do when I was there was I assisted a partner who in fact she became the managing part of the firm later on.

06:19

On the child migrant cases.

06:20

So these were back in the 1930s and 40s that the UK literally exported children who were orphaned or had been born.

06:33

And you know, back in the day when people were very judgmental about women who had children that weren’t married, they were often.

06:39

Away from them and some of these children were sent to Australia as child migrants where you’ve probably read about horrendous abuse and difficult things happen to them.

06:49

So our firm, we’re doing some work with the Child Migrant Trust and I got to spend a summer as a training down at the Public Record Office in queue looking at all the shipping records and what was said in Parliament about sending these very young children away.

07:05

So we did a whole wide range of things.

07:09

But I think at the time I wasn’t aware of law care or.

07:13

The mental health challenges that some of this, the impact the work can have on you.

07:17

And that was part of the reason that I decided to take a year off and do that masters in medical law and ethics.

07:24

Because I remember thinking at the time, this work could probably kill me in terms of how hard it was emotionally listening to people who had really terrible things happen and they would come in to see you and basically what.

07:43

People really wanted Wizard answer, they wanted to know what had gone wrong, and they really wanted an apology.

07:49

And I think I found the system quite frustrating because it isn’t really designed to deliver that at a base level.

07:56

What we were doing was there to financially compensate people for loss.

08:00

And you can never compensate people for some of the things, the things that had happened to them, the loss of a child or somebody who’s left.

08:09

Unable to work or somebody who’s died in custody, you know, really tough stuff.

08:15

And so I, I think that’s where I kind of seed.

08:18

Of awareness around some of the challenges that people face in those areas of law was kind of planted with me but I I certainly really enjoyed the variety the intellectual challenge of having to learn about new situations and medical procedures and the firm did a lot of high profile cases as well so it was very exciting being in an environment like that where.

08:45

There was a lot going on in the firm to basically challenge injustice.

08:49

All types of forms.

08:51

So it was an, you know, I enjoyed that aspect of the work a lot.

08:55

Yeah.

08:55

And it sounds like an incredibly varied and important role that that that you had and I guess leading to another important role that you had obviously executive director for the Alzheimer’s Disease International and the Institute of Group Analysts.

09:08

So would you mind telling us a little bit more about your role there and and what that involved?

09:13

So for Alzheimer’s Disease International, that was an accidental.

09:18

Career choice.

09:20

So while I was doing what I’d done, my, I’d been at Lee Day.

09:23

I think I was qualified about three years when I decided to do this MA and medical Lord ethics, thinking like a lawyer.

09:29

Oh, that’ll look good on my CV if I want to go back into law because I wasn’t quite sure if I wanted to stay in law.

09:35

So while I was doing that, I got a job working for Alzheimer’s Disease International as the administrator because my MA was only, I only had to be in college two days a week and the rest of time was at home.

09:46

And by then I had a mortgage, so I needed income.

09:49

And.

09:50

So I was just working, this is how long ago it was sending faxes all day long.

09:55

The chap that ran the organisation, he, he became quiteunwell and he didn’t come back.

10:02

And so when I was finishing up my ma, they said, oh, would you like to come and work?

10:06

Would you like to stay and take on his job?

10:09

And I’d kind of by this point thought I was going to go back to law.

10:12

And then I thought, oh, you know, the path not taken.

10:15

It was an international job.

10:17

I did a lot of travelling and I’d grown up that way so there was a lot of appeal for that so.

10:22

And I was very interested in the cause of dementia, which at that time in the 90s perhaps didn’t have the attention that it has now.

10:29

So that’s how I landed up there and I stayed there for 10 years.

10:33

And that’s a global federation of Alzheimer’s societies in different countries.

10:39

And our role was to really help build the capacity of those organisations to supportpeople with dementia.

10:46

And a bit like what we do at Lawcare, we commissioned a lot of research around the global impact of dementia, so.

10:52

I loved that job.

10:53

It was, it was a lot of fun.

10:55

We were in like 85 countries, so I was always getting to go to very obscure places like Uruguay and all over the place.

11:04

So it was great.

11:05

And then I moved on.

11:06

I left that job when I had my son.

11:08

I went back when he was born and I got on a plane because I had to go to South Korea for a meeting and I was walking all the way to the back of the plane, sitting in something like 55G.

11:20

And I burst into tears and I thought, oh I’ve left my 6 month old baby with my mother.

11:25

I can’t do this job, I can’t travel and leave my son at home.

11:29

So I came back from that trip and I resigned having thought I would manage it all.

11:35

And then I had a better time out and then decided to go back to work.

11:39

And that’s how I landed up at the Institute of Group Analysis, mainly because it was walking distance from my front door.

11:46

So I could drop my son at nursery, walk to work and then pick him up.

11:51

So I but I was also interested in that.

11:54

I knew nothing.

11:55

About psychoanalysis and this is an organisation that trainsgroup psychoanalysts, so people that look at group dynamics and, and how people interact in a group.

12:09

So I was there for four years and then I, we had moved by then.

12:13

We’d left London, we moved to Bath.

12:15

I was finding it a bit of a struggle having to go up to London.

12:18

This is kind of before there was a lot of flexible working.

12:21

I’m going one or two days a week.

12:22

And then I saw the job advertised at Lawcare and I thought, oh.

12:26

I’m thinking I want to leave this job.

12:27

I’m looking for something else.

12:28

Lawcare was fully remote.

12:30

My son was 5-6 at the time, so I thought maybe a bit older.

12:36

I thought, you know, a job that’s remote home based.

12:40

I have a young son in primary school.

12:42

I’ll have the flexibility that I need.

12:44

So and, and also I was really interested with my legal background.

12:48

They were looking for someone who was a lawyer to come and be the new CEO.

12:52

And I thought, oh, this has got to be a job for me.

12:54

All right.

12:54

So that’s how I landed up.

12:56

None of my career has been by design really.

12:59

It’s all been what’s presented to me at that point in my life.

13:04

And I thought this looks like the best option for me.

13:06

I’ll go that way.

13:08

So, and we like that, you know, we like the authentic journeys, the stories and you’ve talked about it there.

13:15

But I would love to, to sort of dive in more to, to Lawcare because you are the now CEO.

13:20

So for those that may not be familiar, would you mind telling us a bit more about the mental health charity?

13:25

Yeah.

13:26

So Low Care is a mental health charity for the legal sector across the UK.

13:30

We operate in all three jurisdictions, Channel Islands and the Isle of Man, and we support everyone.

13:37

About 350,000 peoplework in legal services across the UK and I think an important point to make is about 40% of people in Lord Legal Services are not legally qualified.

13:48

They’re working in other roles in HRIT Business Services.

13:51

So we support everybody in the sector.

13:55

All different types of lawyers from Silex lawyers, train work attorneys, patent attorney’s, judiciary, solicitors, barristers, Also people that are on the pathway into law.

14:05

So if you are doing the SQE or the Bar course or an apprenticeship, or you are doing a Silex programme, we also support you as well.

14:14

And our main function, we have two main roles, 1 is about providing support to people who are struggling with their mental health or the pressures of working or studying law.

14:25

And the other part of our work is around education and efficacy, about wanting to improve.

14:32

Working practises in culture and law to better support people.

14:36

In our sector, yeah.

14:39

And look, we absolutely support the the great work that you are doing and the team with the law care.

14:45

I guess for those who may be, you know, unfamiliar, would you mind going a little bit deeper in terms of, you know, maybe if you’re a lawyer in the law firm, some of the sort of the, the types of practical support that Lawcare could, could offer?

14:56

Yeah.

14:57

So our support service is a telephone helpline.

15:03

A web chat service and an e-mail confidential e-mail service.

15:07

Those services operate Monday to Friday, 9 till 5.

15:09

If you go on our website, you can find out how to access them.

15:13

I think the unique thing about what we do is that we get it.

15:18

Are you?

15:19

We only operate in the legal sector.

15:21

We’ve been here since 1997.

15:24

We have listened to 10s of thousands of people in law talk about their struggles.

15:30

So there’s probably very little that we haven’t heard before because I think many people in law.

15:37

Feel that they look around and everybody else is gliding like the sworn across the the pond.

15:43

But actually they’re not only peddling like this.

15:45

They often might feel there’s piranhas trying to bite at their feet as well.

15:49

Or they feel it’s really hard to speak up and ask for help for that fear of the stigma.

15:56

That this might be a career limiting step, you might be perceived as weak or not good enough.

16:02

So we offer that safe, confidential, impartial space to talk.

16:07

We’re not going to tell your firm.

16:09

We’re not going to tell the SRA.

16:10

You don’t have to give us your name.

16:12

The only time we would breach your confidentiality would be if we were worried that you were at risk of harm to yourself or someone else.

16:19

So we offer that really safe place to.

16:23

Add what many people say is just having the opportunity to get something off their chest and share how they’re feeling.

16:30

Makes them feel so much better.

16:32

And although a lot of more people come to us about is relate related to work, there’s never one thing, there’s always a story and there’s other thing going on in people’s lives.

16:42

And I think the key thing is that everyone who answers the phone or replies to an e-mil or a aweb chat, it’s somebody that’s working in the law or has worked in the law.

16:51

So we get it.

16:52

So if you say I’m a trainee solicitor in a city law firm and I’ve just moved into my second seat and I’m not sure I want to do this anymore.

17:00

We know what that means.

17:01

If you say I’m a partner in a law firm I’m having, I’m in dispute with some of my other partners about XY and Z.

17:08

I’m really feeling pressursed and I ithink they want to get rid of me.

17:11

We know what that feels like.

17:12

So I think that’s where people get the benefit of speaking to us is that we have that.

17:20

Understanding and knowledge about what it takes to train, qualify and work in the legal sector.

17:28

Yeah.

17:28

And it’s, it’s very reassuring, you know, for those that are going through that journey.

17:33

I guess I want to talk about the evolution of, you know, we live in a very fast-paced world.

17:38

You know, Lorke has been supporting league professionals for over 25 years.

17:42

You know, how is the support?

17:44

Evolved over the years, particularly with sort of, you know, the changes we’re seeing in the workplace too.

17:48

To begin with, we had our roots in alcohol, so when we were set up in 1997, we grew out of a concern around how much lawyers were drinking and using alcohol as an unhealthy coping mechanism for the pressures of legal work.

18:05

And I, I think perhaps then it wasn’t articulated in that way.

18:09

I think people could see what the problem was, but perhaps weren’t linking it in the way we might now.

18:15

And we only supported solicitors in England and Wales so.

18:18

We’ve evolved now, as I mentioned at the beginning, you know, to cover the whole legal landscape and everybody in it.

18:25

I think we’ve also introduced new channels.

18:27

We only used to be a telephone helpline and when I first came to Lawcare, I used to have a little kind of box down on the floor which was the manual way of changing the helpline over to the next person that was taking it on and all that kind of stuff.

18:41

We now have a cloud based.

18:43

Core handling system which makes life much easier.

18:46

We’ve also introduced those new channels like webchat and e-mail.

18:50

But I think the other big thing and you know, alongside our support, we provide a lot of resources and education as well.

18:57

But I think the the big shift that’s perhaps come in the last five or six years is our growing focus around the advocacy piece about how we can encourage legal workplaces.

19:10

To be put against steps and measures that are going to support people’s mental health and not undermine it.

19:16

And I think that’s sort of the evolution that we’ve been in.

19:20

And I think we’ve also massively expanded our digital presence with our webinars, our podcasts, our LinkedIn newsletter, all of that kind of stuff.

19:30

I think we’ve that’s been a big change as well.

19:33

We’re using more, I guess, like everyone, we’ve got a wider range of channels and tools now for communicating with people.

19:41

In a way that we didn’t have even 10 years ago.

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20:30

Across the UK now back to the show, I think the more you know you can reach people have impact help people using these multi channel approaches, the better.

20:40

You talked about obviously alcohol when when starting out.

20:44

What have been some of the common queries, you know, maybe in more modern times you’ve been getting from law care and how do you typically respond to them?

20:51

Yeah, so I would say #1 is always stress would be the most common reason people get in touch with us and there might be a multitude of reasons as to.

21:00

People are feeling stressed, overwhelmed at work, too much to do, not enough time.

21:06

It could also be related to difficult relationships in the workplace.

21:10

They’re in conflict with other people.

21:12

It could be things that are going on in their personal life.

21:14

But all of that mounts up to that sense of not feeling able to manage what’s been interesting.

21:20

So it’s stress, anxiety and depression always used to be the top three.

21:23

But since COVID, we’ve seen a shift in that.

21:27

And So what we now see is stresses #1 we see what’s called.

21:30

Rear concerns, which used to come much way down the list, like 8 or 9 is now the second most common reason people reach out to us.

21:38

And career concerns is people say I’m not sure I want to do this anymore.

21:44

Of all stages of their career.

21:46

So we get a lot of juniors calling us, but we’re getting more senior people calling us.

21:50

So we think that that’s perhaps our armchair informal analysis of that is perhaps the pendant, you know, that the pandemic, living and working through a pandemic, I think made many people reflect on their lives and what they want.

22:06

From work, what they want, from their relationships, what is it that really makes us happy?

22:10

And I think we’re now in this post pandemic world where people have had the opportunity to have greater flexibility with their working styles.

22:19

And there may be some rating back on that in some organ isations. But I think morefundamentally, I think people have been thinking a lot more about their purpose and their values and wanting to align their work with that.

22:30

So we are seeing an increase in those cool things.

22:34

I’m not sure I want to do this anymore.

22:36

It may also be, I think reflected to the current climate of where I think a lot of people feel they’re squeezed to do more with less.

22:44

So there’s less resource out there.

22:47

So there’s the expectation of what they can do and deliver has gone up.

22:52

And so that’s interesting.

22:53

And then anxiety would come in 3rd and then bullying and harassment and and then how we respond.

23:00

So what we when someone would call us typically.

23:04

We listen, we ask questions that are kind of open questions.

23:09

Trying to get people to tell us a little bit about more about what they’re experiencing and then we try to help people work out what steps they may need to take themselves.

23:21

So would it help them if it’s a work related issue, they feel they’ve got too much on their plate?

23:27

Could they speak to their managers or colleagues to have some of that work taken off their shoulders?

23:33

Do they need to have a conversation?

23:36

With their manager about other things.

23:39

We try and guide people to try to work things out for themselves.

23:44

We don’t tell people what to do.

23:47

We try to help people work through and find a solution that works for them.

23:51

But I think our our main function is listening and then we will signpost and direct to other resources as well, either on our website or externally that we think will help people.

24:01

Yeah and let let’s stick on help then because you know, supporting mental well-being doesn’t you know needs to also be done within the firms because.

24:09

Law care, you know, encourages healthy legal workspaces and supporting mental well-being and we absolutely do.

24:15

But what can law firms proactively be doing to support their employees and staff?

24:20

Maybe a couple of practical, tactical things.

24:22

There’s a lot and I think you’ve, you’ve hit the nil on the head when you use the word proactively.

24:28

So I think I’d like to call it legacy thinking, but I’m not sure it’s legacy thinking yet, but the approach to mental health.

24:38

Has generally been reactive.

24:41

Someone struggling, they have a concern the firm might be able to direct them to some counselling by the EAP or support them to get some external help, but that’s dealing with a problem when it’s arisen.

24:53

By that time it’s too late, if you see what I mean.

24:57

So what we are keen on that proactive.

24:59

So I think the pro #1 is I think what firms can be doing.

25:05

Is actually trying to identify what the problems might be within their organisation.

25:11

Where are the pressure points?

25:14

What are the risks to their mental health in the workplace?

25:18

We already know quite a lot about what those risks are, things like working long hours or lack of supervision, low autonomy, low psychological safety.

25:27

So I think from a very practical point of view, looking at what some of those risks may be and how you can mitigate them is really important.

25:35

But I think alongside that is.

25:39

For firms that are on the beginning of this journey, I think it’s about creating that environment where.

25:44

Open conversations I’ve had where people feel psychologically safe to speak up about what’s concerning them because the stigma silences people from coming forward.

25:54

And if you work in an environment where you think no one’s interested or they’re not going to listen, or if I do raise something, nothing’s going to get done about it.

26:04

That just compounds it and stops people coming forward.

26:07

But I, I think.

26:09

The my main message to anyone listening to this is to think about what you can do.

26:14

Around prevention, what is it about those working practises that you could be doing to improve, to better support people’s mental health?

26:24

Yeah, no.

26:25

And everything, you know, gets better when you start having, you know, conversations of, of real meaning and, and, and coming from support.

26:31

You talked about stigmas.

26:33

I want, I want to kind of be a little bit deeper because, you know, do you think there still is a really strong stigma surrounding mental health within the league profession and, and how can we look to sort of breakdown these barriers?

26:44

You’re more open and just generally authentic, honest conversations.

26:48

Yeah, I you know, I think we’ve come a long way, particularly since the pandemic, but I think stigma is still.

26:56

We should not think we’ve conquered that because we hear it all the time when people contact local.

27:03

They have not spoken to anybody else about what’s worrying them.

27:07

And I think it’s for those reasons I mentioned earlier that it’s really hard to put your hand up in our sector when.

27:14

There is that perception that, you know, we’re, we’re perfect, we’re self-sufficient.

27:21

Other people come to us to solve their problems.

27:24

So we can’t have any of our own.

27:27

It’ll be a career limiting step.

27:28

You’ll be thought of as not good enough.

27:31

All of that stuff stops people from speaking up.

27:34

So I think we can have more people openly speaking up about their stories and telling their stories, particularly people.

27:41

In senior roles, and I think we’ve seen a lot more of that, but I think in a law firm, I mean, you don’t have to go public and put your story on a law care website or the Law Society Gazette.

27:50

You could be running events internally where you have a panel discussion about mental health, then your firm, and you get people within your firm to tell their stories.

27:59

And I’ve been to a number of those in firms where I’ve been asked to be one of the speakers.

28:03

They’re closed events for the firm and you can hear a, you can hear a pin drop when you hear a partner tell their own story about mental health.

28:14

Everyone in the room is riveted to hear that because they’ve often never heard somebody speak like that, which shows some.

28:20

So I think, I think that’s the, the really the crucial way to challenge stigma is to get more people talking up about the issues and, and making it okay to speak up.

28:33

You know, it’s such a hierarchical profession as well.

28:36

We take our cues from how our leaders behave.

28:39

So if we don’t see anyone in a senior role talking about mental health or their own struggles and that kind of is going to make other people think.

28:48

You know, maybe this isn’t an environment where I can talk about what’s going on for me, so I think that’s really important.

28:53

Yeah, no.

28:54

And thank you for for giving really interesting insights and some practical things for for us to be thinking about.

29:01

I want to talk about the decline of mental health, IE what are often some of the first signs that your mental health needs looking at and what are some of those in the legal oppression from your experience indicating them things that might be able to help them from your experience with law care.

29:18

I think one of the things.

29:20

Is we’re often better at seeing the signs of other people than we are in ourselves.

29:25

So being a bit more irritable, lethargic, problems with sleep, panic attacks and nausea, you know, our brains and our physical bodies are connected.

29:36

And I think if we all had to describe how we feel when we feel nervous, people will say they feel sick.

29:42

You know, we feel it in ourselves.

29:44

So that says poor concentration.

29:49

Inability sometimes to switch off, feeling overwhelmed, and I think when it comes specifically into thinking about legal work is perhaps sitting at your desk.

29:58

Just not getting through the task.

29:59

So you’re maybe not as organised as performance concerns about your work.

30:05

You might be withdrawing from relationships at work as well-being a bit more isolated, distracted.

30:13

Tension in your relationships at work, but also at home.

30:16

I think all of those things are signs that you might be struggling with your mental health.

30:22

And you know, it’s tuning into those, which is is important is to think, well, hang on a minute.

30:28

How am I actually feeling and thinking?

30:30

Oh.

30:32

You know, that’s not quite right.

30:33

I should, should maybe think about getting some talking to somebody or looking up what might be going on for me.

30:40

Yeah, No, again, thank you for for just really letting us, you know, into the into the world and the work that you’re doing at law care and and having this conversation because it’s only going to help so many, so many people.

30:52

And collective responsibility, I guess is also is equally important because you’re a big believer that mental health and well-being is collective responsibility.

31:02

The legal profession, again, we support that.

31:04

Why do you believe mental health is a collective responsibility from from your perspective?

31:09

Because I think that as a sector.

31:13

We need to join up the work that’s going on around mental health and improving culture because people, we need to start with legal education, we need to look at practise, we need to look at regulation, we need to look at professional bodies.

31:28

And I think we need everybody kind of singing off the same hem sheet if we really want to affect change.

31:33

And I think there’s a lot of great initiatives.

31:37

In the sector.

31:39

Around mental health, but it’s all quite fragmented.

31:41

It’s in different places, different people doing different things and I think it’s not.

31:46

I think the collective responsibility is that this isn’t one person’s problem.

31:51

Is it just me as a solicitor might be struggling with my mental health?

31:56

It’s me, it’s my workplace, it’s my regulator and I think if we really want to shift the dial on improving things.

32:05

We have to have a collective approach to this.

32:08

And it’s not going to happen overnight.

32:10

It’s going to, I think we’re looking at a decade to affect real change.

32:15

And that’s one of the things in our study that we did in 2021, Life and the Law, that’s where we called for a collective responsibility.

32:23

We actually asked people in that study who they thought was responsible and it came back as being a range of people.

32:31

And I think that’s a really important message that all the stakeholders in the legal sector all have their part to play and it isn’t if we really want to drive.

32:47

Umm, meaningful, lasting change.

32:50

We’ve got to make that happen and we have to look at all aspects of the kind of legal life course.

32:57

And increasingly at Law care we are working on a new strategy which will come out next year.

33:06

We’re repeating our Life in the Law study, which will come out in January.

33:10

When this podcast comes out and.

33:14

One of the things I know that we’re going to be focusing on is a.

33:17

Is more work around legal education and what can we be doing in legal education to better equip people for coming into the sector for the realities of life and practise? I thinkthere’s a lot there isn’t there?

33:29

And again, thank you for, you know, we all have this collective responsibility and I think it’s great that you you talk to that.

33:37

And I always say we is greater than me.

33:39

And you know, again, if we work on that basis, the more we can all come together to support, the better.

33:46

Wanting to sort of think about the next generation now.

33:49

Of aspiring lawyers, what are your top three tips for those who are students wanting to take care of their their mental health and how can they look after their mental health whilst balancing responsibilities of studying.

34:01

I think so important to support engage with that next generation of lawyers coming into the sector so I think 3 main things number one, I think it’s about setting boundaries and.

34:15

Really being careful around your boundaries I think.

34:19

Umm, so that you’re better able to prioritise your worklife balance because that is a big challenge in law and practise that.

34:27

Maintaining boundaries can be really hard because of the workload.

34:31

It slips into working late or working at weekends.

34:34

So I think if you can adopt earlier in your legal career while you’re studying.

34:39

Having those boundaries in place between your study and training time and your.

34:45

Work your personal time.

34:46

I think that’s really important.

34:47

Then I think it’s also a big part of it is about find your community or find your friends.

34:51

So you know the the fantastic thing we have in our sector, there are so many networks for younger lawyers regionally, nationally, there’s all kinds of networks that people can get involved with, the Junior Solicitors network and the equivalents and the other jurisdictions.

35:11

Is groups like Legal Cheek, you do lots of events and support for for juniors.

35:16

So I think really getting involved in other networks and reaching out your local Law Society at college where you might be studying because I think it’s in those networks you find your peers and you feel better supported.

35:28

You’re not on your own, you’re part of something bigger and you can turn to those people in that community for that support and I think as you go through your career.

35:37

I think that’s really important.

35:38

I certainly remember when I was a trainee.

35:40

Well, I was an article clerk again, I was so old, but you know, it was the other article clerks who were my kind of support network.

35:49

And I think people gravitate towards us and I think find your friends in your community.

35:53

And then I think really importantly, and it kind of links to my first point around boundaries.

35:58

So you have to prioritise self-.

36:00

careAnd I think we we don’t always see.

36:05

As students or aspiring lawyers, or in practise there , actuallyour minds are our greatest asset.

36:11

This is where the work happens.

36:13

This is where the study happens.

36:15

And if we don’t look after our minds, we’re not going to be able to do our best work or pass that exam.

36:21

And actually, the activities that support our minds are all the things that we tend to sacrifice when we feel busy.

36:30

So we’ve got that deadline to get the essay in.

36:32

Oh, okay.

36:34

I won’t go to the pub and meet up with my friends or I won’t go to football or, you know, I will.

36:40

Not go to my book club or whatever it is.

36:42

I’ll sacrifice the time I was going to spend.

36:46

Doing something that would support my mental health or you cut back on.

36:51

I don’t, you don’t eat as well, you haven’t got time to cook.

36:53

So you order in the dominoes after a long day.

36:57

So it’s about recognising that although it’s not rocket science, you know, you don’t need a lot of wearable technology to look after your mental health, which I think is another era that we live in.

37:08

You just need to actually value.

37:11

The activity that you might see is of lower value.

37:14

Actually is huge value.

37:16

Being with friends, pursuing hobbies, eating well, sleeping well, these are the things that are going to help you look after your mind and stay in that sweet spot of thriving.

37:27

So I think really prioritising and notsacrificing the time you spend on doing those sorts of activities is really important and and trying to carry that through your working life is really important.

37:42

Completely agree and love that you again have shared so many.

37:46

Tactical and and tactical tips and advice throughout this podcast.

37:50

Really enjoyed it.

37:51

I guess one, one final question before we look to, to close is advice you would give to to lawyers or those in the legal profession who want to focus on their well-being and mental health.

38:02

So I think #1 just get started if you want to focus on your mental health and well-being.

38:08

There’s there’s not only a little careful resources, it’s everywhere and and I think a really important point in law and I think a lot of people.

38:16

Sometimes struggle with this is I think is always hang on to why you wanted to do this in the 1st place.

38:23

What was it that motivated you to think I want to be a lawyer and allow that to guide your career choice I think we.

38:32

Got a lot of contacts from people at low care people that they always wanted to be a family lawyer but they’ve landed up in conveyancing or in the corporate world is try and follow the path that you feel is the right path for you, not the path that other people might want you to choose.

38:51

But yeah, I I think that’s really important if you want to a happy career in the law is to make sure you are working in a practise area, in an environment that suits you.

39:02

But also just get started, don’t delay is start doing those things straight away.

39:09

That will make a difference.

39:11

Yeah, I remember a mentor said to me, Rob, not one day, day one.

39:15

So now day one.

39:16

And I think that speaks very, very clearly to that.

39:19

And Elizabeth, this has been been fantastic.

39:21

If our listeners want to to follow you or learn more about your career or indeed the work you’re doing at law care, where can they find out more?

39:27

Feel free to shout out any websites, any social media handles will also include.

39:31

This special episode for you too.

39:33

Yeah.

39:33

So our website islocal.

39:35

org.

39:36

uk.

39:37

So that is really the gateway to everything that we do.

39:40

We have a big presence on LinkedIn.

39:42

So we have a LinkedIn Lawcare page, which you can follow, where you can sign up for a law care newsletter and our LinkedIn newsletter where we list all of our events that are coming up.

39:53

We run a series of webinars, probably 6 to 8 free webinars a year, open to anybody in the sector.

39:59

So, but I’d say the starting point is our website.

40:02

Tell you about our support and all the other activity that we do.

40:05

And please do follow us on LinkedIn and social media and spread the word.

40:11

If you’re working with colleagues who haven’t heard about Little Care, let them know that we’re here.

40:16

Yeah, and absolutely.

40:17

That’s our intention with today as well, to help spread the work.

40:20

Thank you so, so much, Elizabeth.

40:22

Really appreciate your time.

40:24

It’s been a pleasure hosting you today.

40:25

But from all of us on the League podcast sponsored by Clio, wishing you lots of continued success with your career and indeed the future pursuits.

40:32

Getting up to with law care, but for now, over and out.

40:34

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40:37

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