Intellectual Property Lawyer & Author – Rosie Burbidge – S3E11

[0:00:01.1] Rob Hanna: Welcome to the Legally Speaking Podcast powered by Kissoon Carr. I’m your host, Rob Hanna. Today, I’m delighted to be joined by Rosie Burbidge. Rosie is an intellectual property lawyer and partner at gunnercooke. Rosie has written a book called European Fashion Law: from Start Up to global success, and regularly writes for popular IP blogs and publications. Rosie has been recognised as one of the women in IP from around the world who are destined for great things. So, a very big welcome Rosie.

[0:00:33.3] Rosie Burbidge: Thanks very much, Rob! What an introduction, very kind of you to list off all my great achievements.

[0:00:39.3] Rob Hanna: Indeed. And we’re going to dig a lot more into them a little bit later on, but before we go through all of that amazing work that you have achieved, we do have our customary icebreaker question here on the Legally Speaking Podcast. So, on the scale of one to ten, ten being very real, how real would you rate the hit TV series Suits in terms of its reality and reflection of the law?

[0:01:04.9] Rosie Burbidge: I mean, it’s about two, isn’t it let’s be honest, it’s had of a few gems over the years. I only really watched the first couple of series and I definitely haven’t watched every episode, but like all legal dramas, the biggest fiction is that anything can get wrapped up in a single episode. You know, a lot of the issues that they had to deal with would have taken most law firms at least a year.

[0:01:28] Rob Hanna: Yeah. I think it’s amazing how they manage to suddenly make these cases all happen. So yeah, I think your two is well and truly justified. So, let’s start at the beginning, tell us a bit about your sort of family background and upbringing first.

[0:01:45.1] Rosie Burbidge: Sure. So, I mean, I guess my mum is a nurse and my dad was a lecturer at a university. He actually taught law, he taught European law and business practice on the LPC and I guess as a result of his background, he was very keen and I was always very keen that I not become a lawyer. So, that was a bit of a fail on my part. And yeah, I mean, I grew up partly in London and then we moved to the full-on countryside when I was about 12. And after that, I decided again on the theme of not becoming a lawyer to study English literature at university, which I loved and I then was very set on becoming, I don’t know, someone in publishing or going into teaching, or I guess one of the more stereotypical things that you do with your English degree. And it just so happened that I shadowed someone who was part of my, ‘Oh, maybe I’ll be a journalist phase’ who worked, at the time, because at the time my dad was doing a column for like legal queries at the time.

So, I mean, I guess one of those both fortunate things of having a connection into that world. And I discovered that journalism was really not for me, it involved quite lots of very angry people with my experience, I had the opportunity to meet Sir Desmond Silver, who was at that time involved in the International Criminal Court, which was in Sierra Leone and I was just so fascinated by what he was doing. And I had no idea that there was this opportunity to work outside of a business context or already, I mean, I suppose like any child, you don’t necessarily pay that much attention to what your parents are talking about. I just had this vague notion of what law was and the opportunities that it involved, and any way, he really opened my eyes and was such an engaging character that I started to think about law a bit more seriously and the rest is history. Well, a few things happened in between, but that’s how, that’s how I really got going, that’s how the legal career began.

[00:03:54:06] Rob Hanna: Yeah, good for you. And you sort of think you did the graduate diploma in law, then you went on to the LPC and then you obviously did your diploma in IP at the University of Oxford as well so quite a bit of academia under your belt.

[00:04:07:03] Rosie Burbidge: Yeah, exactly. And actually it’s something that doesn’t tend to make the public CV, but on the theme of wanting to look at the human rights side of things. So, I actually took a year out between the LPC and starting my training contract at Olswang and did an internship at the Centre for Capital Punishment Studies in Port of Spain, Trinidad. So, that essentially meant going into the prisons and working with death-row inmates on their appeal to the Privy Council in London. And that was a really eye-opening and rewarding experience, but also showed me that a career in human rights is not the right thing for me. I found it very difficult to compartmentalize what I’d seen and experienced during the kind of working day. And it was just very lucky to, I suppose, to be on the Caribbean Islands, that there were lots of nice distractions after the prisons of Trinidad, which I can assure you are not somewhere you would want to end up.

[0:04:59.9] Rob Hanna: No, not at all. And I guess that nicely sort of leads us to the area of law, which you do know quite a fair bit about which is intellectual property, but what drew you to a career in IP?

[0:05:12.8] Rosie Burbidge: Two things. Firstly, the opportunity to work with really creative people. So, whether it’s working on a pharmaceutical patent or a copyright in a play or an artistic work, IP is all about people who are creative and then generating things that are important for society in one way or another whether it’s cultural or science. So, that was really, really important to me and then also as you touched on earlier, I think I really liked the academic side to IP. I think it’s a much more sort of technical, complicated, strategic area than perhaps some others are and because there is so much variety in there and so many nuances in the international system, as well. I’ve got a huge amount out of thinking and working with people in all sorts of different problems across lots of different sectors.

[0:06:06.4] Rob Hanna: Yeah. That’s great, so, thanks for sharing that and you have risen through the ranks very, very swiftly and as of today you are a partner, an IP partner for gunnercooke. So, could you tell us a bit about how your practice has changed if at all, since you’ve sort of become a partner at gunnercooke?

[0:06:24.7] Rosie Burbidge: Sure, I mean, obviously I think everything changes when you become a partner, particularly if you’re a partner at a challenger law firm like gunnercooke. In terms of the day-to-day work, I’m acting for quite similar clients. So a mixture of SMEs, some very large organisations, I do a mixture of managing the portfolio work, but, obviously my background and primary strength is in litigation, and what’s really nice about working in a firm like gunnercooker is having the opportunity to pull in expertise from across the firm. So, we’ve got lawyers who are really specialist in all sorts of different areas, whether it’s fraud or, you know, even things like equine law, right the way through to the more traditional practice areas like employment and corporate obviously, and commercial.

So, having that background and that support has been really helpful in terms of building up my practice. I mean, obviously I think the most important thing that you realise very quickly as a partner is that your job is all about relationships and whether that’s relationships with clients, with fellow partners or with your employees, it’s absolutely essential to know and be able to emphathise with people and help them with their problems, which may be obvious in the sense of the legal problem but sometimes they’re a bit less, a bit less of a legal problem necessarily, but nevertheless, something that’s really important to them from a personal perspective.

And I think that’s been probably the biggest learning journey of the last couple of years has been the value of those personal relationships. And from a legal perspective, I guess, I’m now much more involved than I ever was in the full journey and in just having regular chats to work out where people are. And obviously the last year has been really important from that point of view because I work with clients in both the technology sector, which has been fairly well-placed throughout the last six months and fashion, which has definitely had a much more challenging journey. And on both sides of that coin, people have had very difficult issues that they’ve had to grapple with, even if sometimes that’s handling success and handling too much business, right, the way through to managing redundancy programmes and that sort of thing, which is obviously not the sort of thing that any clients wants to have to manage, but there are ways of approaching it that can limit the pressure. So, I suppose going back to your original question, the biggest change for me has been thinking more holistically on approaching client’s problems rather than it just being, how can I help you with your IP? Thinking much more, how can I help you with your business? If it’s not something that I personally have the legal experience of, to be able to find the right person who does have that experience and support them through that process.

[0:09:26.9] Rob Hanna: Yeah, no, absolutely. So, it sounds a lot more sort of entrepreneurial in some sense, like what you’re saying there in terms of supporting the whole sort of piece for clients and maintaining and fostering those relationships, which I really, really like. I guess, before gunnercooke you were with sort of more traditional law firms structures. How did you find that move and what have been some of the sort of differentiators from firms, I know you obviously trained with the likes of Olswang, now of course, CMS and a senior IP lawyer with Fox Williams and had a good stint there, but how did you find the sort of shift from a traditional law firm structure to where you are today?

[0:10:02.4] Rosie Burbidge: Well, so I mean, funnily enough, obviously, one of the big differences of gunnercooke is that everyone is set up to work remotely. So ironically, that’s not such a great differentiator anymore because I think everyone has got used to remote working to one degree or another. I personally much prefer being around people, I’m definitely an extrovert personality type and I’ve found the lockdown very challenging from that point of view. So, the biggest difference from my point of view has been working, I choose to have some office space in a co-working studio and to be around other people in different businesses so that’s completely different to the way that a law firm operates, it means that in my lunch break, I’m able to chat with someone who’s selling format right into the New Zealand market. Somebody else who’s founded a new FinTech lending business, other people who are working on new types of sustainable footwear.

So, being surrounded by entrepreneurs makes it much more rewarding for me, and again, feeds into this positive loop of thinking about how I can help my clients and ideas for improving and supporting people. And that’s just not the way that law firms think or operate, it’s much more about, really, revenue generation and I suppose I’m thinking of, obviously revenue generation, but by doing a good job and using that to grow rather than necessarily thinking in quite the same way that traditional firm does, I also think, you know, one of the interesting aspects of gunnercooke is that it’s much more senior heavy. So, I’m able to work with more established lawyers who are often slightly more expensive on an hourly rate basis, but are able to fix their fees so that we can get to likely be the same price or lower than what a regular law firm would charge.

But with the knowledge that it’s being done by someone who’s got many years under their belt and can really identify exactly what the client’s core need is and deliver that that in a way that I don’t think I’ve seen in any of the firms that I’ve worked with before. Really, I think the biggest change is one of mindset, and like you say, it’s all coming back to thinking from an entrepreneurial point of view and because we’re all gunnercooke partners all by their nature entrepreneurs, it’s quite self-selecting in that way that everybody is always thinking, how do I build my practice? How do I build my business? And for me that’s always been about how do I help my clients.

[0:12:40.0] Rob Hanna: Okay. Well, that’s interesting. Do you think more law firms should become more like the gunnercooke model? And do you think that will happen or not?

[0:12:48.5] Rosie Burbidge: So, I think quite a lot of law firms have embraced some aspects of it, so there are consultancy-type programs in lots of law firms now and I think that’s obviously been quite beneficial for groups of lawyers, particularly women who may have taken a break or may have been inclined to take a break, but now no longer have to after children, or when they’ve got small children at home or, I mean, obviously not just women, but that still tends to be where things fall. I would hope that over time, law firms will learn some of the lessons of the pandemic and see the opportunities for them. I think that’s certainly been what I’ve seen anecdotally, but it takes quite a long time to steer some of these shifts in a different direction. And as transformative as the pandemic has been, I’m not 100% sure that it will change things permanently.

I suppose one of the other big changes is the adoption of different types of technologies, which again is something that, at gunnercooke, I’ve embraced right from the beginning because it’s really the key to being able to punch above my weight on one level, and it enables efficiencies and it’s much better from a client point of view, to have more transparency over the process and the timings and everything. And obviously cost, which is always an important consideration, I think law firms are much more forward-thinking than I think they often get credit for, even the established ones and I’m sure that a lot of the changes that we’ve been able to produce at gunnercooke will slowly reach the rest of the market. The one thing that I think will be very difficult to pass on is this mindset because for as long as you’re focused on drawings, or on the lockstep model or whatever alternative to that the partnership agreement has put in place, it’s always going to be different the way that you think about things as your listeners may or may not appreciate, gunnercooke is much more like the barrister model, where we take a percentage of every invoice, that’s it, there is no additional support beyond around the finance compliance  and sort of standard legal functions.

So, if you have a more quiet month, then that’s just the way it is. So, you have to balance your workflow and think quite carefully about where you expend the resources and how you focus on your business development initiative. Again, I think it’s made me a much better lawyer and a much better business person to think in this way through, but I 100% appreciate that, you know, lots of people want the certainty and security of regular drawings or a salary. So, it’s something that works exceptionally well for me but I can’t necessarily be for everyone. For that reason, I don’t think that necessarily the exact gunnercooke model will become the norm although as I said, the consultancy, sort of hybrid of getting paid, just for what you’ve done, but on an hourly rate basis, which is more akin, I suppose, to a zero hours contract, might become a little bit more common than it has been to date.

[0:16:03.7] Rob Hanna: Thanks for sharing that sort of in-depth answer. I think that gives a really good balanced view on what may or may not happen, but we must, as I said, at the top of the conversation, talk about your recently published book on European Fashion Law. So, what inspired you to author that?

[0:16:20.7] Rosie Burbidge: Well, I mean, it’s like all things, it’s the sort of thing that you agree to when you’re feeling very optimistic and naive about the amount time that it takes to write a book, and then reality sets in. I suppose my inspiration came from seeing that there was quite a lot of really good resources that looked at fashion law from a US perspective, but there was certainly nothing that was as in depth as what I produced, that was thinking from a more UK perspective and I really wanted to create something that was really user friendly and accessible for people, whether or not they were lawyers, or in business. So, I mean, I’ve gone about that in various ways. It’s largely written addressed directly to the audience, as opposed to in that for the more indirect, passive voice that you read in a lot of legal articles. I’ve also tried to make it as easy to follow as possible.

So, for example, there are little icons that appear throughout the book to highlight areas where it’s particularly important, or there might be something that’s useful. So, it’s very cheesy, but essentially, if there’s a picture of a coat hanger in the margin, that means that it’s an important point and a lot hangs on it. Yeah. If there is some sunglasses, it means that it’s a cool, practical points and if there’s a slightly retro eighties icon of a t-shirt, it means that it’s something that might go out of where the law in flux and it might not be current in a few years, but obviously around anything relating to the EU and the UK that has a lot of T-shirt icons because it came out in 2019 before we really, well, I wouldn’t say that anyone knows exactly what Brexit is going to bring at the moment, but there was even less what was going to happen.

[0:18:16.9] Rob Hanna: Yeah. So, would you say fashion law is one of your favourites and just a sort of subsection part of IP law or what’s your sort of favourite part?

[0:18:28.3] Rosie Burbidge: Well, the honest answer Rob, is that there isn’t such a thing as fashion law. It’s a combination of the different aspects of law that are relevant for the fashion industry. And I think it’s really helpful to think in those times when you’re thinking about clients. So, I do a lot of work with gaming clients, with fashion clients, with FMCG clients, generally. And then there’s all sorts of other things, so, I’ve done cases in the last year to do with the break glass devices that you have in buses, to do with children’s toys and to do with tender documents for security contracts around installation of alarms and that sort of thing. So, a real mixture of things and obviously IP being the common element, but I think it’s really helpful for clients to also know the things that are particularly relevant for them. So I like to frame new developments in IP from a technology and from a fashion perspective, it’s easy to look at a legal update and not really get why it might be relevant or useful, but once you’ve translated it into, or I suppose, localised into the sector language, then it’s much more helpful for clients to understand and appreciate how it’s relevant to them.

And that’s really been the approach that I’ve taken to fashion law, but it’s also the approach I take with my technology and gaming clients as well and one of the really fun things I’ve being watching as those two areas have converged over time, you know, so wearable technology being a really good example of that, but also the sale of digital fashion, you know, whether through Animal Crossing and those sorts of games, seeing more and more these interesting ways of essentially allowing people to wear a fashion item in their Instagram photo, which from the sustainability point of view, it’s much preferable to people buying the item and then trying it on and sending it back using the returns process, is a really good example of fashion and technology cooperating to try and solve a problem.

[0:20:34.0] Rob Hanna: I love that and I love that coming togetherness. And I guess to put you on the spot a little bit, you’ve worked with some incredibly high-profile IP disputes from SuperDry versus sort of Abercrombie and Fitch, to Phillips vesus Nintendo. What has been your most rewarding case you’ve worked on during your career you would say, what stands out to you?

[0:20:55.0] Rosie Burbidge: I mean, every case has its highs and its lows, as I think any litigator will tell you, I would say probably in recent years, because it’s the first really big case I’ve done as a partner, earlier this year I had a really great settlement to do with a dispute on an Arhaus Lamp. Obviously I can’t go into the terms of the settlement, but what I can tell you is that we got a public notice in Elle Decoration, which came out in the August edition and I can tell you, it’s very, very challenging to get these public notices agreed as part of the settlement, but to get one in Elle Decoration, it was a real win for the client. And what was really nice was it even included a photograph of the client’s product. So, it was just really fantastic advertising for them and great to have that really clear notice going out to the market that these sorts of replicas won’t be tolerated any longer. And that has been a real highlight of the last six months and it’s something that happened, you know, a rare moments of joy during the bleaker moments of lockdown as well.

[0:22:09.0] Rob Hanna: Good for you and congratulations. And I guess as we look to close, there is one sort of platform I want to talk about, which is TikTok, because that’s becoming more and more popular. Do you see more social media related sort of IP disputes on the horizon, obviously it’s been well-publicised recently, but what do you see with regards to social media and IP disputes happening?

[0:22:29.6] Rosie Burbidge: Obviously, they’ve become major, if not, almost the most important channel for a lot of counterfeiters. And when you’ve got people like the Jenner sisters promoting products that are in fact counterfeit, I’m sure against their knowledge, it makes you realise how big-time social media has become a problem from an IP perspective. I assume you are alluding more towards the privacy side of TikTok, but it’s actually the counterfeit product side that I’ve seen the most alarm at, because this sort of technology around taking down unlicensed content is getting better all the time. And that’s a relatively easy thing to do, compared to identifying whether or not an item that’s being promoted, whether it’s on TikTok, or Instagram or wherever and by an influencer is in fact genuine or not, and I find the whole influencer space really fascinating, and I’ve done quite a bit of work with clients around managing their influencer- like their own influencers, and also managing issues that arise with influencers promoting things that aren’t genuine.

And it’s much more challenging than you might think, because it’s just so fast, you know, something blows up, almost by the time the brand’s aware of it, the flood has passed and it might not even be possible to buy a test purchase of the counterfeit, which is obviously one of the first stages in being able to start an infringement action. So, tracking that and ways of using technology, partnering with different groups, including, obviously, people like the police, from the criminal side, particularly there’s a safety dimension to it thinking through in those terms is really where social media is super interesting, but also really problematic and that is definitely a hot topic and something to really keep an eye on.

[0:24:22.3] Rob Hanna: Yeah. And that’s a great way to end on that sense Rosie, you’ve shared some really fascinating insights, particularly around the world or sort of IP there. And if people want to follow or get in touch with you about anything they’ve heard today, or want to learn more about your European Fashion Law book, what’s the best way or platform for them to do that, to get in touch?

[0:24:45.1] Rosie Burbidge: Obviously I’m not on one platform only Rob! The best way to contact me is always frankly by emails, so that’s rosie.burbidge@gunnercooke.com, but in terms of following me, I’m on Instagram and Twitter as @RosieBurbidge and then I also have accounts for my book so europeanfashionlaw.com is the website and there’s the discounts available on their, if you were inclined to purchase the book after having heard all about it but it’s also on Twitter and Instagram as well as @EuropeanFashionLaw. And I’ve even dare I say it got my own slight vanity domain, so rosieburbidge.com has got a collection of all of the blog posts and articles that I’ve written at least over the last three or four years and I think those are my main channels. No YouTube channel yet although there are some videos of me on there, I work quite closely with Crafty Counsel, I’ve done various intro to IP explainers through Crafty Counsel many of which have made it onto YouTube as well. So, there’s no shortage of ways to get in touch and find out more about me and my practice.

[0:25:55.3] Rob Hanna: Great stuff. No, absolutely I can see some pretty good handles there for people to get in touch. So, from all of us on the show, Rosie, thanks a million, it’s been a real pleasure having you on, learning about your journey and learning more about your practice and what you’re going to, no doubt go on and achieve even further. So, wishing you lots of continued success at gunnercooke, but the now over and out.

[0:26:16.3] Rosie Burbidge: Thank you very much Rob. It’s been a pleasure.