Is it time to rethink the ways law firms operate?

This week, I’m joined by Mel Kang, the Founder & CEO of Mezzle. This amazing company is one of the fastest growing fee-sharing law firms in the UK. Mel shares why the fee-share model is transforming legal careers, the rise of remote-first law firms and how AI is shaping the future of legal work.

If you’re a lawyer thinking of breaking free from tradition, this episode is a must-listen, go give it a listen now!

So why should you be listening in? 

You can hear Rob and Mel discussing:

– AI in Legal Practice Enhances, Not Replaces, Human Lawyers

– The Fee-Share Model Offers Flexibility and Empowerment

– Building Mezzle with Core Cultural Values (PRCB)

– Remote-First and Tech-Enabled Firms Are Thriving

– How Vulnerability and Setbacks Can Lead to Entrepreneurial Success

Connect with Mel here – https://uk.linkedin.com/in/mel-kang

Transcript

00:00

Respect is a big part of what we’ve built here.

00:02

AI tools will be able to scan through the initial documents, court orders, and ask for suggestions from the lawyer.

00:11

As an experienced lawyer, we can feed back, this is what I wanted to do, this is what I wanted to say, plus also, can you double check that it doesn’t have paragraphs or guidance that could go to detriment of my client’s matter and highlight it to me.

00:29

I do agree thatlawyer, the human being, gives the advice to the end client, the end recipient of legal services.

00:37

The AI Tools function is there to act as a free employee, but it’s just…

00:43

teaching and training these lawyers.

00:45

You have to speak to them as to where they are, not where you think they are.

00:50

On today’s Legally Speaking podcast, I’m delighted to be joined by Mel Kang.

00:55

Mel is the founder and CEO of Mezzle, one of the fastest growing fee share law firms in the UK.

01:02

He is the most experienced fee share consultant in the UK and an entrepreneur and investor dedicated to the legal profession.

01:10

Mel specializes in health, corporate law and has worked as a consultant solicitor for the last 13 years.

01:18

He has passionabout working with law firm owners to secure the future of their businesses, all whilst improving the work-life balance of their lawyers.

01:26

So, a very big warm welcome to the show, Mel.

01:30

Hi Rob, all good?

01:32

Yeah, great to have you with us.

01:34

I’m excited for today’s discussion.

01:36

And before we get into all the great things you’re getting up to, we do have an icebreaker question here on the League is Being podcast, which is on the scale of one to 10, 10 being very real, what would you rate the hit TV series suits in terms of its reality of the law, if you’ve seen it on the scale of one to 10?

02:00

Oh God, I haven’t watched manylaw firm, TV programmes, but I have seen Suits.

02:14

I think it was a lockdown thing, but I watched it the entire series.

02:18

I would say, I would say it’s aboutFour out of ten.

02:26

Four out of ten.

02:28

It looks the part, they dress the part, that is probably ten out of ten, that is ten out of ten.

02:35

Content wise and the way that they go about doing the drama and the effects and the building up the attention, it don’t happen like that.

02:47

It doesn’t happen like that.

02:50

If you said to me like a real life character in it relating to a lawyer, look,and Harvey Specter.

03:00

I love Harvey Specter.

03:02

Everyone has a man crush on Harvey Specter, we all do, cool.

03:05

I love Mike because the genius and he’s just slipped through the net but that again wouldn’t happen.

03:12

I would love to relate to Mike as well but I’m not intelligent so that never happened with me.

03:18

I am probably the closest resemblance you probably get to Lewis.

03:24

And he actually resembles probably, he’s actually smarter than me, don’t get me wrong.

03:32

I am that real nerdy geek that was in a law firm trying to make friends, connect with people and I was just kind of sidelined.

03:40

But you need him because he brings the fees in, he connects and he’s got some use to the business.

03:47

So I think Lewis is actually probably the closest resemblance to a real life person, a real life lawyer in an actuallaw firm.

04:00

We can all have very attractive support people but I mean Donna is just that don’t happen.

04:09

So a very justified four for the show and your 10 out of 10 Lewis Litt.

04:15

That’s why I’ve understood.

04:16

Okay so we can move on with that.

04:18

So let’s get into your career Mel because you’ve done some great stuff.

04:22

Can you tell our listeners a bit about your background and career journey?

04:27

So today I’m the founder and CEO of Mezzle butRewind backwards, traditional lawyer, I just about scraped through law school and LPC.

04:42

I’m terrible at academics.

04:44

I never wanted to be a lawyer.

04:46

I want to be a tennis pro, tennis is my life.

04:48

I just want to be tennis, tennis, tennis.

04:51

I didn’t quite make it because I was just poor, I just cut the grade and my parents forced me into becoming a lawyer, professional.

04:59

It’s an Indian cultural thing, they want academics, et cetera and my family have got doctors, dentists, accountants andright we haven’t got a lawyer go to law school and I was like dad I don’t want to go stand in front of a judge and wear a wig I used to think a lawyer was actually a barrister at the time I didn’t realize lawyers were sitting at desks and negotiating contracts and typing away soI went through clearing because I didn’t meet the grades.

05:29

I just presented well to a university, so I just got through into a university.

05:34

It was fine.

05:35

I did the full law degree, qualified, just about passed my exams.

05:40

I’m pretty sure I failed the LPC, that’s the exam you take to become a lawyer, a solicitor.

05:47

I think I failed it twice.

05:49

I think I failed it twice.

05:51

And I just my desire was not into being a lawyer, so I just can’t focus.

05:59

I think the first attempt was, I better pass this, I’m going to get a beating if I go home.

06:04

I’ll be the black sheep of the family.

06:09

So yeah, push comes shove.

06:11

I managed to pass the exam.

06:13

Got a decent enough training contract, qualified atShakespeare’s is where they are now, where I’ve sort of started my fledgling career.

06:23

I then, it was all going fine and then something, I used to think it was catastrophic, I used to find it a bit of an embarrassment to say it.

06:34

It took me a while to actually get this house in the open but I got made redundant in the 2007-2008 crash, if you don’t recall that Rob.

06:44

It was the first experience of a financial crash, a recession, you know I’d heard it, when I heard about it all I knew about a recession was the Great Recession back inI don’t know, the 1800s.

06:55

I thought damn, I’m just being kicked out.

06:59

I remember the day, the partners called me down into the boardroom, sat me down and I could see where I was going.

07:06

I managed to get through like two or three rounds before my turn came up.

07:10

I was probably the last ones left in the team, I was the junior lawyer, I was just an assistant lawyer.

07:16

Must have been three or four years PQE, and they said, We’re gonna have to let you go, and just the five years I turned around and said, I think the inner sort of fighter in me was like, ‘Hang on, my fee income is better than my supervising partner’s.’Yeah, that’s true, you are billing like 180 odd grand a year and he’d only done like 100 or something, so it was lower than mine, but he was on a higher salary, and they was saying, Mel, you’re on a 33, 35, I think it was 33,000 pounds salary I was earning at the time, and it’s just cheaper to get rid of me.

07:55

So that, Rob, I think now looking back on it, I was embarrassed to tell people are being made redundant, I think it’s not a nice, pleasant process to go through, on reflection,I think it’s actually come to tell me, it’s probably shaped what I’ve done now in my career and how I helped create and set up Mesel.

08:20

Because when I left the firm, Shakespeare’s back then, I went about to set up my own law firm and a sort of twist of face, I got a call from another law firm and they just said, We heard you’ve left, why don’t you come see us tomorrow and we can have a coffee and we can talk about you potentially joining us as a consultant lawyer.

08:43

Rob, I had no idea what a consulting lawyer was.

08:45

I just was grateful that someone was prepared to have a coffee with me, and probably just wipe away the tears.

08:54

And I went to the law firm, it was a boutique-y litigation practice, and as irony as fate has it, they were ex-Shakespeare’s lawyers that left two years previous to that.

09:07

So I didn’t actually know them, we were from a different office, and we just gelled, we connected, got talking to one another, and they said,Look, I was gonna set up my own law firm back then in 2009, I think it was, and they said don’t do that, it’s high risk, you’re not gonna insurance, PI, you need to be the accounts person, the compliance person, the IT person, this person, and then you’ve got to do the day job.

09:34

And I thought, God, they’re right.

09:37

But they said, what’s the alternative?

09:38

They said, become a consultant lawyer.

09:41

And at the time, I thought consultant lawyer, that means I’m like…

09:46

45 years PQE, I’m the tail end of my career, I’ve got all grey hair, I’ve got no hair, sorry, I’ve got no hair, and I’m just on the sort of the graveyard shift.

09:57

I said no, no, no, no, you sit here, you do your work, you maintain your own client base, and you’re on a fee share arrangement of 70/30.

10:07

I’ll tell you a funny story about the 70/30 in a second.

10:10

I went 70/30, I went okay, that’s alright, but I think I was attracted to my independence.

10:18

The independence was what I wanted, which you don’t get in law firms.

10:22

Went home, told the wife, told the six month old baby.

10:26

So I basically got the nod from both of them and I pretty much started.

10:32

I think I took a couple of weeks out.

10:33

I went on tour, watched all the tennis tours in Europe.

10:37

I went to Rome and Monte Carlo.

10:39

Came back, all energized and I started this role as a very, very junior consultant lawyer, fee share consultant lawyer, Rob.

10:50

I assume, Rob, you know the fee share consultant.

10:53

Yeah and I guess well I do but it’d be helpful to tell our listeners a bit more about that and the differentiator.

11:01

So let’s get forward because and by the way thank you for being so open and honest about your journey and that’s what we want to bring people on because you know I say every experience negative or positive you can learn from it and it can push you forwards and obviously you took that experience from being redundant you moved forwards and look where you are today.

11:20

So let’s get to Mezzle because you know you are one of the fastest growing fee share law firms in the UK.

11:28

SoTell us about what the firm represents and what does it actually mean to be a fee-share law firm so people have a bit more of an understanding.

11:37

Okay, you’re right, we probably were nominated as the fastest growing fee-share law firm last year by a Codex report.

11:45

So that was a real testament.

11:46

Congratulations.

11:48

I always say founders never build businesses, it’s people do and that’s testament, that’s fact that people have built the business where it is today, not me, I just came up with the idea.

12:02

I think Mezzor, if I break it down to its sort of four cultural aspects, we call it PRCB, okay, PRCB, four core values.

12:14

So we put up people first, it’s all about the people.

12:18

Our people are our lawyers as well as MSU.

12:22

So our lawyers actually we have a really cool title.

12:25

I love naming conventions.

12:26

We call them the C1 community.

12:29

The C1 community means client one.

12:33

Every one of our lawyers is the ultimate client.

12:37

They have the number one title.

12:39

So we all refer to them as C1.

12:41

So anybody who joins Mezzle as part of their first day experience, the onboarding day, we talk about the C1 community, okay.

12:51

We serve the C1s, okay.

12:53

They getred carpet treatment they get everything they get all the support they are prioritized they get next day payments literally like Amazon they don’t pay salaries that’s part of the fee share model so they get next day payments which is better than being paid once a month they get six or seven we have the dopamine hit where they get text messages and push notifications when they get paid immediately and so those are those are the points about the P in our culture okay the Rstands for respect.

13:27

We respect one another.

13:29

We’re not aggressive, I’m not an aggressive person, I want that part of me to run through the culture of the firm.

13:36

We respect everybody and all their decision-making, support that they need.

13:42

And we treat them the way that we find them.

13:45

We cannot assume that everybody is the same in Mezzle.

13:49

So respect is a big part of what we built here.

13:52

C is we challenge the status quo.

13:55

I am literally away with the fairies.

13:58

I’m in la-la land.

14:00

I’m not here to go with the wave, we go against the wave.

14:03

We are a true, true disruptor.

14:06

I want to be different to everybody else.

14:08

We can dive into that a bit more bit later.

14:12

And the B is the balance.

14:16

We prioritizefor lawyers.

14:19

This is not somewhere you come and you are in here for eight till eight and you’re just hammering the time of the clock, your balance.

14:28

The reason I did meddle is because I’m a family guy, I’m married, I’ve got three children, love them to pieces, love the wife, love the kids, haven’t got the dog yet.

14:40

I love my tennis career, I still tell myself to say that I’m gonna become a tennis pro and I need that in me, I need to understand that I’m still gonna be able to play Roger Federer one day, so I need to play tennis three or four times a week.

14:55

So balance is key and balance is something that we really promote to lawyers looking to come into Mesel.

15:02

So PRCB.

15:04

I love that and it all makes so much perfect sense and I love that you wish to be contrarian ’cause that’s in my beliefs as well and why we’re the firstlegal recruiting business to set up a podcast like this that’s gone on to be in its own right and to do things differently and to disrupt because you have to be bold, you have to be ambitious, you have to take risks throughout your journey and you’ve done that and it’s paid off to be a huge success.

15:30

One thing I want to talk about which is no new story but it’s good that you are this approach because I think it helps.

15:37

Remote first, so you’re remote first and tech enabled law firms.

15:42

So why are remote first in your opinion?

15:46

law firms enjoying so much success and what are the advantages of actually having a remote first firm, maybe from a people and client perspective?

15:56

It goes back to the 20th March 2020.

16:00

Yep.

16:02

Boris Johnson told the entire country there’s a virus, stay at home until further notice, okay?

16:12

I’m obviously referencing the seismic event COVID.

16:15

Okay?

16:16

That was the day, Rob, when I was drinking a glass of red wine, thinking what’s this announcement that the Prime Minister’s about to make?

16:25

And as he said it, I literally, you probably see it’s like a cinematic Hollywood moment.

16:31

I dropped the glass, smashed it on the kitchen tile, and like everyone’s looking around thinking, is he having a meltdown, what’s going on?

16:38

And my wife said to me, what’s wrong?

16:39

I said, I’ve just realised that after this announcement by our number one MP, the leader of the country, he’s just told every singlelawyer in the country, if not the world, go work from home until further notice.

16:58

But what he actually said to the lawyers, the way I’ve deciphered this, is that every lawyer, traditional fee share, you are now going to experience what it’s like to work remote first, what it’s like to be forced to work from home.

17:14

I also then predicted that they’re going to come up with some antivirus, they’re going to give a solution, et cetera, and it’ll take a year, two, three years, and at that point,Traditional law firms are going to try and then bring the wave of lawyers back into the office, but it ain’t going to happen because the lawyers are going to realise it’s quite easy to work from home.

17:37

I need a laptop, I need really cool wi-fi, and I’m pretty much good to go.

17:43

And obviously I realise that I’m a very pro tech and AI enabled individual and law firm operator.

17:53

AndWhen there’s disruption and change typically it comes from government or it’s financial or it’s technology all three were combined at the same time okay because I realised very quickly Zoom and Teams Rob let’s be honest we’re on a Zoom platform here okay nowIt’s no different, okay?

18:21

We weren’t using this pre-COVID.

18:23

This all got accelerated after COVID.

18:26

I wasn’t using Teams, I wasn’t using Zoom.

18:28

The majority of lawyers weren’t using it.

18:30

Best we ever had was something called Loop, if anybody remembers what Loop was.

18:34

We were just using Loop and it just was getting traction.

18:39

That got sped up because all of a sudden my children, my daughter was three and six years old, and the school were teaching them an iPad on Teams, and I thought they’re doing it for children, they’ll do it for lawyers.

18:53

Zoom and Teams enhanced.

18:55

Microsoft applications got faster and better.

18:59

And then quickly, obviously law firms are deploying laptops, double screens, and making the home environment the new environment, the remote-first environment, and just as I predicted, come and, you know,of the vaccinations 2021, say ’22, law firms are struggling to bring in their staff.

19:23

It’s the whole hybrid, the two in five rule, the one in five rule, B team, green team, red team, et cetera, rotating it, coming in.

19:33

What’s also testament, which you may not see, Rob, on the ground, is that law firms who have leasehold premises, they are trying to get out of their leases, they’re renegotiating with landlords,to get obviously a smaller space.

19:49

So it keeps us, for Meswell, it keeps us agile.

19:53

I like the balance sheet to be nice and agile because I don’t want to turn to long-term commitments, long-term contractual leases.

20:01

And the thing, the obvious thing that’s staring us in the face is that law is not a bricks and mortar business.

20:09

I’ll go blue in the face, I’ll happily speak to anybody, okay, anybody on your podcast.

20:14

It’s not a bricks and mortar business, it isn’t.

20:17

We are a services-based industry.

20:21

We have lawyers, we have anin Dubai, they can work and service clients in the UK, no difference.

20:29

And I’m Jack Newton who we were talking about Offair, obviously CEO of Clio, you know he’s been on a huge mission and he remembers you know way back when when he started Clio it’s almost taken 15 years to convince law firms to move away from bricks and mortar to the cloud and now we’re obviously in the AI and tech revolution which is you know getting a slightly much faster adoption because you have to but I think what you’re saying is now table stakes you know I think what you if you’re onmodern, nimble law firm, you need to be tech-enabled, you need to be where you are at the point of giving your people this flexibility, because I think that’s the way you’re gonna win, and hence why you’re on this growth drive, hence why you’re doing so well, because you’re understanding that dynamics change, and I think you can’t live in the past.

21:18

I always reference my late grandfather who ran his own law firm in the 1950s, heaven forbid I’d be wearing a hoodie doing this recording, let alone not having a suit and tie, be in that office drilled to my desk, but things change, and client perceptions change, and culturesand businesses and things change.

21:35

Yes, there is a place for people to be in an office, I understand that, but I think where you’re going and what you’re doing, there’s no surprise that there’s an uptick trend on a rise and an attraction for lawyers.

21:49

So let’s talk more about the FeeShare model for those lawyers listening today who might be unsure about joining a FeeShare model.

21:59

What is one thing you could tell them that would be helpful for them to learn that perhaps is not as publicized widely as some of the more common things?

22:09

I think one point you just said there Rob, I could probably try to think of one and it’ll be really honest and I think transparent as well so they understand.

22:18

But there’s so much more and even small little nuggets.

22:23

What you said about the hoodie, love your hoodie.

22:26

Okay, I’m just in myjust in my t-shirt, just in my jumper, that’s how I operate every day.

22:33

The point about our culture and I was talking about the respect.

22:37

If any of our lawyers want to come in in a suit and then want to come in joggers and t-shirt, we respect that, okay.

22:43

Now lawyers, we don’t perform better just because we’re wearing a suit and a tie, we don’t.

22:49

Actually it’s the opposite, we actually perform better when we’re relaxed.

22:53

That’s something that’s important with the FeShare model.

22:56

We encourage our lawyers, when the lawyer joins and they have the photograph on the website, we do say just come relaxed, what you want.

23:05

to do.

23:05

So I think some of the things are tricks.

23:07

Some do come in a suit and a tie.

23:09

He’s having me on, he’s having me on.

23:12

I’ll come in a suit and a tie.

23:14

Others will, yeah, no problem.

23:16

Sometimes they come in a bit too Nike and that topics, et cetera.

23:20

So sure, you want to do that?

23:22

You can do it if you want, but we respect what you’re wearing.

23:27

But those sort of more sort of smaller points.

23:33

I think a more refined, important note about the fee share model is that don’tcome into this model if you don’t have at least at least 75-80 thousand pounds worth of a client following that you’ve generated yourself.

23:54

Other law firms, our competitors might have a benchmark for 100, 150, 200 but if you don’t have the following don’t come here because you won’t survive, you’ll hate me, you’ll think I’m lying, you’ll hate the model, you’ll lose confidenceand you’ll then rush to go back to being inside a traditional firm.

24:20

You’ve also got to have, it’s a really key ingredient, you’ve got to have an entrepreneurial flair, okay.

24:28

Now entrepreneurial flair, it could be described as having a growth mindset, being a bit more of a risk taker, or somebody who admits that lawyer,is sort of endemic with lawyers.

24:42

Somebody who acknowledges that they don’t have the sales and marketing skill set, but is prepared to learn and build on that.

24:51

Because Robert, I’m very vocal in the market.

24:53

I talk a lot about lawyers being great at the law because they studied law.

24:58

What lawyers are abysmal at, or let’s rephrase it in a more PC way, is that they have not been trained or skilledin sales and marketing every lawyer in the country is a salesperson.

25:16

We are in the P2P business but we were never we come out of law school do the LPC training contract you don’t go on a program for the next 12 months or next 48 months where you’re trained over a period of time to learn how to price with confidence, LinkedIn training, marketing training and how to handle objection training it doesn’t happen it doesn’t exist.

25:41

Why?

25:43

Why are we not trained in sales and marketing?

25:46

Why?

25:47

And it’s the lifeblood, isn’t it?

25:49

You can be the best technical lawyer, but if no clients are knocking at your door, or people don’t know who you are because you’re not visible, or you don’t have an online, particularly digital media strategy nowadays with socials and everything else, which is the number one point of coin where a lot of people are hiding out, then you’re at risk.

26:08

You’ve got to have a personal brand.

26:11

I don’t agree that lawyers clients cometo the name above the door they don’t half the clients don’t even know the name of the door but they know the name of the lawyer that they’re working with they will follow you there’s that connection.

26:28

You’re absolutely right there’s no point being the most technically gifted lawyer if you can’t connect on an emotional level with your clients it ain’t gonna work.

26:37

I’ve been to so many seminars presentationsbusiness development, networking events.

26:42

Let’s be honest, they’re just restaurant, you’ve done a deal, your clients are coming, it’s a shindig, you’re having a couple of drinks with them.

26:50

And I’ve seen some of the most technically gifted lawyers, when you put them in that environment, they become socially awkward.

26:59

It’s really uncomfortable for them, they struggle.

27:03

Whereas I am not technically gifted, I’m absolutely appalling as a lawyer, okay?

27:10

I’ve never been sued, I’ve been publicly cleaned.

27:14

I’m what I call plodder, plodder, plodder, plodder.

27:17

But I connect with my clients and I just have a long list of clients who are instructing me and saying, Mel is my lawyer, I want to instruct you, I want to follow you.

27:27

I’ve only worked at three law firms and I’ve had the entirety of my client base just follow me everywhere I’ve gone.

27:37

You’re absolutely right.

27:39

We can’t go back in time.

27:41

We are here something that we’re doing inside Mesel where we give training back, we give value back, we don’t charge for it.

27:48

We want our lawyers to learn sales and marketing and how to handle objections, how to build the personal brand.

27:55

It’s so powerful to build your personal brand.

27:59

You cantake earnings from 500,000 up to a million if you could just master the sales skill set and cycle.

28:09

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29:19

Now back to the show.

29:21

You’re talking about everything that I bang on about religiously the power of a personal brand.

29:26

I’ve even done a LinkedIn learning course that folks can send me a DM if you’re a fan of the show and want access to that because it’s so important for lawyers to get this and you know everything you’re saying is again what I feel now in 2025 table stakes you know you need to have that presence you need to be that go-to person because like you say you can’t just leanon the firm brand.

29:49

People want that H to H, that human to human connection.

29:52

And obviously you’ve got a great example of that.

29:54

And you know, the best known beats the best.

29:56

You know, you’ve given a great example there.

29:57

You’ve built your personal brand, you’ve built your network, you’ve known admittedly not the best lawyer, your words, but you know, you know what you’re doing, you get the job done.

30:06

I’m sure you’re a pretty good lawyer at the end of the day as well.

30:08

But this stuff matters.

30:10

This is heavy focus stuff where you need to be leaning into.

30:13

All right, let’s switch lanes.

30:15

Let’s talk about UK and UAE because you recently, and I know you go out to the Dubai and we’ve done a whole series out in Dubaias well and you’re operating UK and UAE.

30:26

What influenced your decision to build your firm in Dubai as well as the UK?

30:32

So don’t say thanks.

30:38

Because I set up Mesel just as COVID was happening there was I don’t think it was an embargo but the application set of law firms was kind of like slow restricted it was just taking a long time.

30:51

The SRA they’ve probably got a mountain of stuffstuff to sort out.

30:55

No one’s ever dealt with a pandemic and people working from home.

31:01

I’m pretty sure they sent a notice saying, can’t process applications for six months.

31:08

I can’t remember precisely, but there was something that said, can’t do it immediately.

31:13

So I’m just sat there thinking, damn, I need to get a law plan.

31:16

Where am I gonna do this?

31:17

I have a friend in Dubai, we speak quite often, and he simply said to me, look Mel, whilst you’re waiting over there, in Dubai is a great legal landscape,I call Dubai that it’s Tesla from 20 years ago.

31:35

If you had your opportunity to invest in Tesla now in the noughties, it’s 2002 say, would you invest in Tesla?

31:46

Everyone put their hands up.

31:49

That’s where Dubai is today.

31:51

So there’s no embargo on applications.

31:54

It was a faster process.

31:57

Transactions and money they transfer and they transact very quickly.

32:05

So it’s a great breeding ground for lawyers for those reasons where money flows really fast and it’s a paperless community and environment it’s born for lawyers over there.

32:17

Plus they adopt the common law system.

32:21

Their statutes pretty much mirror the Companies Act.

32:25

It’s literally likecopy and paste kind of job and I put the application in I think it was probably a less than a month it came back and I thought wow that was pretty quick and PI insurance is probably a tenth of the cost that we pay in the UK and because of our remote first setup our business plan well I didn’t need to go sign a bricks and mortar we operate in the WeWork offices that’s what we do it’s the most complementary model I love it I say it quite proudly saying that we are in WeWork officesI think it’s great.

33:05

We’re in all the key cities it works well for us and it allowed us to have our Dubai presence immediately.

33:12

Yeah and less friction you know everything you said there the time to get it done you know the ability to operate you know that you’re just reducing the friction I always say this and if you’re running any law firm or any business you need to find ways where you can reduce friction to let processes people perform at their best and optimize and as a result of that you’ll have better client delivery happy people within your firm etc etc no doubt you’re going to continue to expanddo great things.

33:39

But I want to go back to something you said which again I absolutely echo is that entrepreneurial flair, particularly as a lawyer, particularly joining this type of model that you have.

33:48

You know as an entrepreneur and investor you’ve helped scale multiple law firms, startups, what’s the most valuable lesson you’ve learned along the way?

33:58

I think the most valuable lesson I’ve learned on the scale-ups and the acquisitions that we’ve done is that lawyers have a lot of knowledge gaps.

34:09

I know how to open a file and I can deliver the legal services but they miss this bit in between.

34:17

Lawyers are creatures of habit.

34:19

They’re so risk averse.

34:22

They don’t like change.

34:24

It scares them.

34:26

Lawyers need a lot of hand-holding.

34:30

That’s what I’ve learned.

34:31

A lot of hand-holding is particularly in business.

34:36

The greater the law, okay, it’s very demanding and I get it, it can be a very stressful state job.

34:43

But if you can balance it out right, if you can teach them that tech and AI is there to assist them.

34:52

The way I sell it into Mezzlee, to Mezzlee lawyers, because I have a separate tech company and we use academically to power our platform for which our lawyers use.

35:04

I actually say when we describe the AI tool that we’re building and delivering.

35:09

It’s actually a free employee.

35:11

That’s how you should see AI.

35:12

AI is a free employee.

35:14

It’s not a computer that’s talking about to you.

35:17

It’s just your friend.

35:18

We call it Roger AI Mezzle.

35:21

It’s designed to allow you to open files, close files, invoicing, summarise your emails, prepare the first draft documents.

35:31

I do agree that lawyers, the human being, the human should give the advice to the end client, the end recipient of legalservices.

35:40

The AI tools function is there to act as a free employee, but it’s just teaching and training these lawyers are so risk averse.

35:51

You can’t talk to a lawyer and assume that they’re at the same level of you, that you have to speak to them as to where they are.

36:01

not where you think they are.

36:02

That’s probably quite a lesson that I’ve learned.

36:05

I’m guilty sometimes of speaking to, because obviously we acquire law firms, we have an inorganic strategy and an organic strategy.

36:13

So inorganic we buy law firms, organic is lawyers coming through our platform, heard about us through marketing and some of the sessions like the podcasts that we’re doing.

36:27

ButI’ve been guilty, me personally, Rob.

36:30

I always feel like I was talking to them, they’re at my level already, we’re on the same page.

36:37

They’re not, you have to explain a lot, give them a lot of information, a lot of knowledge to get them back up to speed to where they are.

36:45

Yeah, meet people where they’re at, right?

36:47

And I think if you can do that, you can build the report.

36:49

Yeah, and you can influence and make smart decisions.

36:53

And I love that you brand that as a free employee.

36:56

And a free employee that never gets sick, that ultimately will also develop over time as you get better understanding that free employee as well, continuously learning at an exponential rate in terms of being able to assist and work with you.

37:09

So that’s super exciting.

37:10

It’s like a super.

37:14

They don’t want a bonus at Christmas, again they’re not late to work, they’re all late.

37:21

They don’t complain about anything, bit weird.

37:23

Yeah exactly yeah a unicorn employee maybe.

37:27

Let’s talk about you know the mass exodus of people leaving traditional law firms or not.

37:33

So you know many lawyers still struggle with the idea of leaving a traditional law firm.

37:39

Maybe it’s not the risk aversion, maybe they’re genuinely happy there and excited with prospects but what was your own transition like and how do youyou help others thinking about the leap make the leap?

37:53

I went into the fee share model completely against my rules.

37:58

I was about four years PQE.

38:00

That’s why I’m known in the UK as the oldest fee share consultant.

38:05

Oldest by experience, not age.

38:06

Okay, so I’ve done it longer than anybody else.

38:09

Anybody in all of our competitors.

38:11

I’m nearly 16 years as a fee share consultant lawyer.

38:15

So I went against my rules, no client base.

38:19

Four years PQE, no sales training or marketing training, and my parents said to me, Well, pay for your first month’s mortgage, and I remember it because it was NatWest and it was 888 pounds, it was 888, as I remember it, and then it was sold, son.

38:37

You’re a grown man, you’re on your own.

38:40

Rob, I’ll be honest, I don’t know how I got through the first 12 months.

38:44

That’s why I talk about the minimum 75, 80,000 man following.

38:49

I have no idea, I just scraped, I got through, cancelled the gym membership, didn’t cancel the tennis membership, that’s probably the thing that got me through.

38:58

But I educated myself, I trained myself in sales, I watched so many YouTube videos, I went on a couple of cheap courses, and I watched other people, suits wasn’t around then, so I couldn’t really pick up the skillsHarvey Specter, but I just trained myself, I upskilled myself.

39:19

So anybody looking into coming into this, if you’ve got the entrepreneurial affair tick, have at least 75,000 pounds worth of following, unless the firm you’re going to have said to you, we can kind of be you so much work.

39:38

Be stable at home, be stable at home.

39:40

Your mortgage is stable, it’s at a sensible level, children, typically if you’re coming in at 10 years PQE,just arbitrary number, you’re typically going to be a 40-42 year old, mature, your salaried partner, senior associate and your options are I can take a bank loan, I can join a traditional firm, exit the other partner, that’s the trick that the traditional firms do orI can come into this where I know my mortgage is stable I’ve got enough money saved in the bank my partner’s working my partner’s working I can manage this risk.

40:19

I always typically say as a principal guide to anybody looking to come in make sure you have three months of expenses covered.

40:28

You’ve got to assume that you have no income for three months if you can accept that and live with that you need to come flying into the fee share model.

40:42

There we go, very helpful, very practical things.

40:47

The only thing that I would emphasis there though, for people like you and why you’ve gone on to be a founder and building stuff, if it doesn’t break you, it makes you.

40:57

There’s certain people that are entrepreneurs born or maybe can have that argument another day, but you needed to make it work and always say if it’s meant to be, it’s up to me and you made that happen.

41:07

And I think you know within yourself, you have that internal drive, you have that ability and whatever it takes at WIFTF, you will make it happen, so love that.

41:17

Okay, let’s kind of go back to the work-life balance point.

41:22

I know it’s something you’re hugely passionate about, particularly in terms of improving the work-life balance of lawyers, but do you think the legal profession is finally moving away from its burnout culture or not?

41:38

No.

41:38

Okay, and why?

41:41

Because we and I talk to traditional lawyers week in, week out.

41:48

One of the most compelling reasons as to why they’re thinking about checking out a traditional firm is the time demand, the hourly rate, the annual target, and the presenteeism.

42:04

It’s still there.

42:06

We have never, as a sector, we haven’t pulled away from the hourly rate.

42:13

We have a Bixby culture at Mesel.

42:17

And I think that’s where it’s going because you’ve got to think about the end user, you’ve got to think about the end client.

42:23

Clients ultimately want three things from their lawyer.

42:26

They want certainty of price.

42:30

If they have certainty of price, they’ll pay a premium if they get the next two things.

42:39

They want you to do the job.

42:41

You sold it to them.

42:43

You’re the 400 pounds an hour.

42:45

lawyer, partner or senior associate you went to meet them for lunch they want you they don’t want the juniors they bought into you okay.

42:54

The third one get on with the job just deliver it get it done complete finish let’s go for lunch and the drinks afterwards okay.

43:05

They don’t need the niceties of the dear Rob and the background.

43:12

Clients simply say just hit me with it I’m paying you for the advice just hit me with thethis won’t work, this is your issues, this is a risk and here’s my suggestions on what you can do, end of.

43:24

And I did a lot of research before Mesel speaking to these clients to understand what is it that they want and they came back with those free components.

43:33

But going back to your question about burnout, no becausethey’re not offering, other firms aren’t all offering fixed fees.

43:43

It’s still this hourly rate in the city mentality, culture, still wearing the clothes, the suits, still dressing up.

43:53

And it’s difficult because I have the utmost respect for female lawyers.

44:01

They outnumber us.

44:02

There’s more female lawyers than there are male lawyers, but there are more male partners at equity level than there are females.

44:10

That statistic just doesn’t make sense.

44:13

YetThey’re still required to be in the office, back home, obviously women who have children, they make a huge sacrifice for us to have families.

44:24

But where’s that balance for them?

44:26

And they suffer more than most.

44:28

That burnout is really telling.

44:31

And I’ve had lawyers who have come to me and spoken to me about coming into Mezzle and Rob, they break down with me, they’re upset.

44:40

I’ve never met them, spoken to me before, and they’re upset.

44:43

I mean it’s because it’s sad and it comes down to the burnout culture.

44:47

So I disagree that it’sit’s still here, it’s still running.

44:53

And I guess the positive of that is that there are great options like your firm that do exist.

44:58

And I was reading recently, key things that matter with, and we’ll talk about AI next, in the world is communication, empathy, that human touch, these things matter and like you say, respecting people and giving them a work-life balance so they can perform their best is super important because if they do have families or other commitments like you say.

45:20

But let’s stick to AI, I know we’ve touched on it, but as someone who’s sort of heavily immersedtech.

45:26

AI is absolutely disrupting many industries, including law.

45:31

I mean, it’s changing by the day.

45:34

But what aspects of legal work do you think AI will replace indefinitely?

45:40

And what will always need the human touch?

45:45

If we’ll always need it.

45:48

Yeah, we’re good.

45:50

It’s a real touch the cord with me.

45:52

It’s a big part of what we’re doing here.

45:54

We are building in our platform.

45:57

We’re integrating.

45:59

We’ve got our foundation AI and now we’re teaching it.

46:02

We’re not released it.

46:03

It’s coming hopefully towards the end of this year.

46:06

AI will replace the low-level sort of menial tasks.

46:11

I would say like opening files, closing files, helping with risk assessments, invoicing, KYC of clients, onboarding.

46:22

That typically is done at that function is done at the bottom level, a sort of assistant secretarial level.

46:30

AI will completely wipe out overnight once it’s implemented.

46:34

Once the journey, in tech worlds AI language we refer to something known as a perfect journey.

46:42

Do you know what the perfect journey is?

46:44

Tell me.

46:46

Perfect journey is being able to get from an endpoint from A to B with no human interaction whatsoever because humans cause delay, errors, mistakes and confusion.

47:03

IfThe endpoint has been coded to say open file here, KYC here, check ID, send it back to the fee earner, open file, prepare client care letter, download, get a reference number.

47:21

That entire journey is automated.

47:23

I mean, I’m talking literally 24 hours.

47:29

So the end point is what you have to create in AI.

47:33

That will obliterate the lower level of the assistance and secretarial functions.

47:40

I’m not smiling about it because obviously it impacts humans, it’s sad, but you can’t ignore, it’s smacking, AI is smacking you in the face.

47:51

If you don’t have AI, saying it’s on your podcast, in the next five years in your law firm, you are going to struggle.

48:00

You’ll either sell upClose down or you’ll be forced to merge with another law firm that has AI, okay?

48:08

Yep.

48:09

Completely agree.

48:10

The next part is that AI will help draft documents.

48:14

This stuff, Rob, is already happening.

48:16

I’m talking as though this stuff’s coming.

48:18

It’s already here.

48:21

The AI tools that we’ve got a sandbox and we’re playing around with the AI tools.

48:27

It’s drafting the documents, preparing it, summarising emails.

48:30

I mean…

48:33

last week I had a meeting and it was an old client and he was like begging me just basically please please handle the sale of my dental practice I was like oh god I’ve got the capacity to do it please like please please please it’s not the money just haven’t got the capacity just send it through to me I’ll have a quick look and I got Copilot to do a summary of the whole thing for me going preparedWe’ve got a test environment, I’ve got it to prepare the client care letters, everything, the end point I’m talking about.

49:06

And it did it within the day itself, but it just hit me.

49:12

I just thought to myself, wow, I could actually do this.

49:16

I could actually do this entire job.

49:18

I declined it because he knew I just had to say I’ve got the capacity to do legal work anymore, but he just did it.

49:27

Yeah.

49:27

I sat back in my chair, Rob, and I thought, wow, I haven’t really told too many people about this, only my developers know about this.

49:35

It was just, for me, it was mind-blowing.

49:39

I just thought to myself, what I typically do, lawyers would dictate, get the file open, get the ID, send it off an app, or call the client in.

49:50

That could take a week, that could take a week to do.

49:53

Yeah, and that’s where the puck is going and it’s already, you know, to some extent, it’s just going to keep going, keep going.

50:00

So yeah, I love how you give again some real practical examples there.