On today’s Legally Speaking Podcast, I’m delighted to be joined by Ben Williams and Iain Cockburn. Ben and Iain are both Founding Partners of YPOG’s (You + Partners of Gamechangers) new UK team. This is one of Europe’s fastest-growing tech-focused law firms.

Ben, a former partner at Withers Tech, is an IP, IT and data protection specialist. He has experience advising high-growth, IP-driven clients who are often VC-backed or science-led.

Iain was a Partner at Withers Tech, recognised for his work in venture capital by Legal 500. He advises investors and founders across Europe. Iain is passionate about how technology can reshape legal service delivery.

So why should you be listening in? 

You can hear Rob, Ben and Iain discussing:

– AI as an Enhancer, Not a Replacement

– The Shift Towards Tech-Enabled Legal Service Delivery

– A Strong Alignment Between Client Demand and Innovation

– New and Specialised, Tech-Focused Law Firms

– International Expansion and Ecosystem Positioning

Connect with Ben Williams here – https://uk.linkedin.com/in/ben-williams-a1983a22

Connect with Iain Cockburn here – https://uk.linkedin.com/in/iain-cockburn-5869a414

Transcript

We do not want to remove the human legal expert from this process. We have huge amounts of data we have to review and analyze and assess and report on on a daily basis. And we now have this tool that can actually do that. Then you’ve got to think about, how can we best use that? You can use it to improve the way you’ve done things already, but you can also actually embed it into your culture and the way you work. That’s when you start to see bigger changes in the way you’re delivering these services. And hopefully, the experience the client is getting.

Tech companies often look to remove the human element and use software processes and technology. That’s not what we want to do. We want to empower our subject matter experts and combine that level of expertise and encode that knowledge into systems that can operate far more effectively, far more efficiently than a human alone ever could. On today’s Legally Speaking podcast, I’m delighted to be joined by Ben Williams and Iain Cockburn.

Ben and Iain are both founding partners of YPOG’s new UK team. This is one of Europe’s fastest growing tech-focused law firms. Ben, former partner up with us tech is an IP, IT and data protection specialist. He has experience advising high growth, IP driven clients who are often VC backed or science led. Iain was a partner at Withers Tech recognized for his work in bench capital by Legal 500. He advises investors and founders across Europe.

He is passionate about how technology can reshape legal service delivery. So a very big warm welcome to the show both. thanks Rob. Really good to be here. Yeah. It’s a pleasure to have you both. And before we get into today’s discussion, do you have a mini icebreaker question or two for you both? Ben, I’ll come to you first. What is your favorite beverage and what is your preferred choice of footwear on a typical workday? We’re starting with all the hard questions, of course. Favorite beverage.

I’m going to go with a very fashionable kombucha. Nice. And favourite footwear? I think it depends whether it’s winter or summer. I’m commuting in from the countryside. So if it’s winter, probably a sturdy boot of some kind. And if it’s the summer, then comfortable trainers. Comfortable trainers. Iain, your moment has arrived for the tough questions. Favourite beverage and preferred choice of footwear on a workday? good. Same question then. Well, favourite beverage, think… ⁓

Probably just a pint of traditional ale actually is what I tend to go with. We’ve got a nice local brewery around here ⁓ which makes some great ale. I’m probably that. And for footwear, actually my Kahoo trainers, I’ve got unusually wide feet. So they’re the only trainers that seem to fit me. So I’ve got a sort of selection of those that I tend to wear.

Good stuff. Okay. Well, now we’ve got the hard stuff out the way. We can move to the easy stuff and talk a bit about some legal and some backgrounds and journeys. So to begin with, would you mind telling us bit about your background and career journey? Ben, you go first and then I’ll flip to you, Yeah, sure. So for me, it started in about 2011 when I joined the London office of a US law firm based in Mayfair as a trainee.

And that was really the first time that I became exposed to the venture capital and emerging companies sector, which I found super interesting because whilst the other teams that I was working with seemed to be doing things that were more well established in the VC sector, had these new emerging disruptive players that wanted to do things differently with new business models. And they were rubbing up against these pieces of outdated legislation.

So it’s a really great foundation for me to cut my teeth and to get involved in a high pace area that I’m still in now and that I found really interesting. So that was really where it started. And the partners at that time that I was working with, they spun out and started a boutique focused in that space called Jan Troll Baker. So I joined them as their first ⁓ employee in the IP commercial team.

And together, I was an associate at the time, but we grew that business over a period of five or so years to become the leading emerging company and venture capital practice in the UK. And we were doing great deals for great clients. And it was an awesome place to be. You think at that time it was the emergence of the FinTech revolution and London was really gaining traction as a tech hub.

So that took us to about 2018. And at that point, what we realized is that our clients were growing super quickly. And therefore, we needed to grow to match their level of ambition. ⁓ So we planned to have international offices and the additional practice areas that we needed. ⁓ But that’s quite a difficult thing to do overnight.

What we were able to do overnight though, is to take that business and merge it into a tier one international law firm, which gave us all of those additional practice areas and the international footprint. So that’s what we did in 2018. And Iain and I, we built that business together with our partners and everyone else involved in the firm over a period of about seven years. And that takes us up to last year when we started looking again at ourselves and our practice area and thinking,

You know what? think the time is right to be disrupting again from the inside of our industry. And that’s what we plan to do. Last year we planned to launch our own disruptive tech native law firm. And I quit a good job as a partner with a good law firm because I believed so strongly in this. And we were just about to do that when Wipod came along and said, hang on a second, before you do, we feel very similar.

And rather than doing it by yourself, if we can combine forces and disrupt on a bigger European scale, how does that sound? And that’s where we are now. Super exciting. And thanks for sharing the journey. And congratulations on all you’ve achieved. And I love the word disruptive. Iain, we’d love to come to you and learn a bit more about your background and story. Yeah, sure. To be honest with you, Ben’s

kindly covered much of my career because I think from 2013 onwards that Ben sort of covered that period. We’ve together for a long time haven’t we Iain? Yeah, yeah. But no, I going right back, I mean I was actually a languages student at university, went to Edinburgh University, sort of typical languages, arts student came out, realised I probably needed to do something else, so converted to do law. It was one of these things that, you know, when you’re growing up people always…

say things like, ⁓ you would be good at this, you’d be good at that. People always said I should be a lawyer, so it was always there as a bit of an itch. And so I went and I converted at the College of Law in Guildford, which is sadly no longer. then I trained, ⁓ I’m originally Scottish, even though my accent doesn’t give me away, but I trained at a Scottish firm called Maclay-Murray and Spence, which was one of the

what they used to call the Big Four back then. They’ve also been swallowed up by other firms since. I trained there for two years, worked for a short period for a US firm and then was put in touch actually with James Shaw, who’s one of the co-founders of Jagshabeg that then was talking about, with whom we still work, one of also the co-founders of YPOG’s UK office. I was put in touch with him by one of the partners I used to work with, McLeys and…

It was an area I was really interested in. James was setting this up on the back of the financial crisis. There’s a lot of innovation and new businesses starting up in the UK. so we went from there really and Ben’s covered that in great details. I won’t repeat that.

No, absolutely. And thanks both again for sharing that. And it’s great that you’ve worked together for so long and still together and in the same firm and doing exciting things because you’re both founding partners of obviously YPOG’s new UK team. So Iain, sticking with you, what type of law firm is YPOG that you want people to understand and what services do you typically offer? Well, YPOG, I suppose the first thing to understand about YPOG is it’s quite a young firm, young-ish. mean, it’s been around now for about a decade in Germany.

It’s beginnings are very similar to our own beginnings in the UK with George Walker Baker. YPOG is fundamentally a law firm that is focused on emerging companies in sort technology, life sciences, innovation, IP rich companies. And it’s and it’s got a really clear focus on that type of client in terms of the well, before I go into the services, just to give a picture of the firm and where it sits.

There are four offices in Germany, there’s Berlin and Hamburg, Cologne and Munich. And now in the UK, we’re based in London and we also have a Cambridge office as well. The services are sort of split across ⁓ three core groups, I would say in Germany. There’s the funds group, sort of private equity, venture capital funds, others. There’s the transactions group, which focuses on the sort of corporate commercial work. That’s where Ben and I sit. Ben is a

an IP commercial lawyer, I’m a corporate lawyer. And then there’s also the tax group, which is really important when you’re acting for funds and in this area. Alongside that, there are other sort of specialist groups such as FinTech and Finreg, corporate crime and things like that. the general, the one thing I think people need to understand about WIPOC is I think, yes, it’s this focus on sort of technology and innovation in Europe. That’s very much what we’re about.

Yeah, and it’s a hugely exciting area where I’m sat today. I get very excited about tech innovation. I’m pro it for all sorts of reasons. know, YPOG has a very strong reputation, doesn’t it Ben? It’s quickly built this reputation, particularly in European tech and the VC sort of ecosystem. So what makes YPOG different to the traditional law firms out there? They have built a really strong brand in a really short period of time.

certainly in the region from which they have grown. So Germany, Austria, Switzerland, that kind of DAC base. ⁓ But to be honest, I think they probably did so through a fairly typical structure and model, but they recruited good people. They were deeply, deeply integrated into the tech sector, which really helped. And they were very forward thinking and created a very nice place to work. So actually, I think the more interesting question is how will WIPOC

differ going forward, because that’s part of the reason we joined this firm. We were helping them to internationalize and pivot away from this traditional law firm structure into one that uses data and technology far more effectively and combines that with the legal and tax expertise that they have to meet client needs in a different way.

So that’s the interesting piece for me. It’s really looking at how a law firm currently is very people heavy. That’s its core asset and moving it or rather combining tech and data as another core asset and using that to unlock new means of scalability. Very exciting and very powerful if you get it right. And Iain, flipping to you on UK expansion because know, WIPOC has recently obviously expanded in the UK market.

it and doing very well. What were the motivations behind that specifically with the move sort of building what Ben was touching on? How does it support YPOG’s broader pan-European ambitions? There’s two answers to that question really. There was our motivation as the UK team and what we were doing and there’s obviously YPOG’s broader ambitions around international expansion and what they want to do. Ben’s touched on our what we were looking to do and you we had a good platform where we were previously we were getting supported but we were very ambitious and wanted to kind of

accelerate this and move this faster and and YPOG when we started speaking with them felt very much the same way and it seemed to make a lot of sense so there was a huge alignment in terms of approach to technology how to use technology how to develop technology in order to improve our services and expand our services. On your second point there I think you sort of asked how this fitted in with with YPOG’s sort of wider strategy I think I YPOG in Germany has built such a

strong position. They really are seen as one of the go-to, if not the go-to firms. think they sort of always top the tables in pitch book and others within that region and, you know, and also fair. And the natural sort of development for them is to look internationally, but primarily in Europe. you know, the UK and Germany are the two largest markets. London was always an obvious point of expansion for them. So, you know, I think the ambition within London is absolutely to sort of replicate in London

the of services and the offering that is there in Germany. But I think YPOG, you know, we don’t just sort of look at ourselves as UK and Germany, we also see ourselves as really an entry point for Europe more widely. And while we don’t yet have offices across all major jurisdictions in Europe, we do have a phenomenal network. what we’re able to do is if, know, a client in the US or elsewhere wants to come into Europe and maybe it’s jurisdiction they’re not familiar with,

We’re very good at coordinating and managing that. So this is really, I think, part of a bigger vision, a bigger ambition for WIPOC to be really at the center of the European tech industry and venture capital and all the ancillary items there. And very exciting times, I have to say, particularly where we are today and just what I’m seeing across some industries when it comes to all things tech. So Ben, flipping back to you, we’re seeing this rise in very high specialized tech-focused law firms across Europe.

What is driving this shift? What are you seeing? And how is it changing the legal market? Well, I think there’s two really important components here. You’ve got the maturing level of technology that’s now available, part one. And part two is being driven really by client demand. But what I would say is that if I were to put myself in a client’s position,

and ask whether they’re really feeling the difference of AI and technology from most law firms, I’m not convinced they are. I think we’re probably observing the beginnings of change though. And in myself and Iain and other lawyers that are starting to leave established law firms and set up by themselves, I think there’s this entrepreneurial mindset that they perhaps don’t believe that they can trigger

change in existing structures because they’re bound by what has been before. So, I mean, certainly I can answer from my perspective. I absolutely wanted to seize this opportunity with AI in order to meet this client needs more effectively. And I felt the best way to do that initially was to set up by ourselves. But actually it turns out that YPOG was the perfect platform for us to do that together.

Yeah, there’s power in the pivot, isn’t there for sure? And clearly it’s been a great success story for both of you and really enjoying the discussion. coming to you, can you share some of the development we’re witnessing in tech specialist legal practices, specifically in Europe, to give our audience some further education? Yeah. So with that question, suppose, if I take it in terms of who are the practices and who is serving these clients at the moment in the UK and Europe, it’s been quite an interesting picture in the last

decade or so. think that the big story and it reflects the wider story in the legal market is, is US firms coming into the UK market. that, you know, and certainly many of the lawyers with, with whom we’ve worked over the years are still there, but a lot of them have moved into US firms and US practices and, you know, and they, and these firms obviously are very highly regarded, invest a huge amount into this area. And it’s, you know, broadly, I think it’s been a positive for the, for the clients. But ⁓

And I would say that picture has persisted. One of the things that we were discussing was when we were talking about what should we do next? What should our next move be? And we were considering sort of setting up one of the things we were considering was setting up another boutique was one of the things we’re not seeing a huge amount of in the market is a boutique setting up, which I maybe would have expected to see. And I think it will be interesting to see as some of these developments that we’ve been sort of

loosely talking about around sort of tech and how that might change legal services as that develops, whether that opens the doors to other providers to come in. Maybe we might see some more boutiques coming in, challenging maybe the traditional law firm model. But I would say that the landscape for tech clients and life sciences clients in terms of their legal support is, you know, it’s evolving, but it’s not radically changed in the last sort of five years or so.

Yeah, and it’s interesting point on boutiques, isn’t it? Obviously, when I, you know, I agree when I set up my own legal recruiting business, I wanted to catch the train of US firms coming in wanting to extract UK talent from the Magic Circle firms, know, commercial play for me as well as spotting that trend and then also on boutiques and seeing the rise of the litigation disputes boutiques bloom in the UK market as well. That’s been a really interesting trend. And I agree, it’s going to be interesting to see. I’ve always said boutiques are beautiful. I think you could be

pivoting, I think you can match your clients, can, you don’t have the oil tanker, you don’t have certain things you’re trying to turn around. And yeah, so I’m, I’m, I’m a big advocate for them, but also I appreciate, you know, there’s, there’s places and spaces for everyone to operate as long as they can meet their clients where they’re at. Ben, want to shift to science led innovation now, if I may, because you both work closely with science led and indeed tech startups. How are these types of companies changing the legal landscape? And give us some insights. We’re seeing more and more science led companies.

So there’s a really interesting pre-question there, which is why are you seeing more science-led companies? And I think my answer to that would be, well, the easy wins in this industry, if you like, have already been achieved. We’ve seen the last decade where money, venture capital money was pumped into often software-only marketplace-type companies.

And they’ve largely been funded, know, that market is kind of saturated. So then the question is what comes next? And my view is that venture capitalists and technologists generally are just diving deeper into particular niches. And so that’s why we are observing more science-based companies. And that’s where the next decade is heading, if you like. You also asked how that is changing the legal landscape. And that’s a really interesting question. And Iain might have some interesting thoughts here, but

More capital is generally required when you’re talking about science because it’s unproven nature. You’re often operating also in more highly regulated domains. know, think AI, gene therapies, quantum computing, you know, these sort of things, require more, ⁓ more sophistication, if you like. And that sophistication in science, I think translates into more sophistication in their

legal affairs right from the very beginning. Super interesting. And Iain, is there anything you would like to build on there? I I suppose only to say that, you know, if you take that direction of travel, I think in terms of, you know, what impact that has on the legal market, I think it’s, you know, it’s harder to be a sort of generalist tech practice or generalist corporate practice and look after these types of clients when they have such specialist needs. And I think, you know, increasingly we see

sort of hyper specialist groups or practices in the market with quite a focus on, you know, sort of deep, deep knowledge in a much narrow sort of vertical, I guess. And I think we’re seeing that and we’ll probably continue to see that. Yeah. And again, thanks for both for sharing such interesting insights about what’s going on, because this is such a fast moving place as well and space. sticking with you, you know, I speak to a lot of lawyers from their careers that want to get involved in cross-border complex

multi-jurisdictional transactions, it’s where the great stuff happens, know, and YPOG is obviously known for that kind of complex cross border work. What are some of the key challenges clients face when trying to internationally and how do you help them navigate through that? And I appreciate it maybe on a case by case basis, so more generally. Yeah, no, that’s fine. I mean, I think if I answer that within the European context, I suppose to link it back to one of the earlier questions.

know, one of the challenges in scaling into Europe is pretty obvious. mean, so many different territories, countries, different languages, different legal systems, know, civil law systems and, you know, different regulatory regimes. It’s incredibly difficult both for businesses and for investors to, know, the flow of private capital within Europe is really inhibited by all of these obstacles. And

You know, and as I was saying, I think one of the things that we’ve always tried to do, even before we joined forces with the German team in YPOG, we developed very, very strong networks across Europe in all of the key jurisdictions. And I think what we try to do to help clients as they expand into Europe or seek capital across Europe is use that network to make sure that…

Because the key is, so when we say why is that difficult to go into a different country, different legal system? Well, it’s difficult because you need different advisors. can’t just have, in the US they’re kind of blessed in many ways that you can have a of an advisor who kind of quarterbacks the whole thing and looks after everything as people expand across the US. And yes, you will need some local support, but it’s not quite the same. Whereas in Europe, you do actually need far more local expertise. what we…

through our network is we manage that expertise because it’s incredibly daunting for any business or individual to go into that without any support, without any knowledge. I’m going to jump in off the back of that if that’s okay. There’s a wider geopolitical theme at play here. We’ll see a lot in the news about sovereignty and how Europe needs to build on its own sovereignty so it’s not reliant on these other actors geopolitically.

And I think that’s right, but one of the points of friction that stops that from happening is exactly what Iain has just outlined, where you’ve got 28 plus different jurisdictions, and that can make it very difficult. But ultimately, you can reduce that down to the expense and ease of doing business in the European continent. And ultimately, if that’s too difficult, that will harm the European tech sector. You know, if you’ve got a VC,

based in London, who has seen a great company in, I don’t know, Italy, but they find it too difficult and expensive to deploy that capital in Italy. Well, ultimately it reduces the pool of capital that’s available and is harmful to the European tech industry in a way that doesn’t happen in the US. Yes, fascinating stuff. And sticking with you, Ben, let’s talk about sort of redefining the tech sector because, you know, WIPOC is

by reading here what legal support looks like in the technology sector, whether that be for funds, venture capitalists, fintechs, growth stage companies and corporate ventures. So how is YPOG going about redefining legal support in the tech industry? Ben to you and then Iain, anything you’d like to add? Well, I think that’s a really astute question actually. ⁓ If you look at the market of legal tech tools that are available now, there’s some great options out there.

but I have one particular issue with all of them. And my observation here is that they’re great at increasing the efficiency in the way that lawyers have always worked. But is that the most effective way? Well, I’d argue perhaps not. And actually, can we sit down almost with a blank piece of paper, redefine what is best for our clients? How can we get this legal point across to them?

in the most effective manner. Well, I can use AI to help me generate an issues list quicker than ever before, but is that really the best thing for the client? Or would they prefer something far more visual, data driven? Maybe they want access to benchmarking to see where they sit in the markets and where they sit against other deals and transactions that we’re seeing in a way that’s far more objective, because then it’s not just about what I have seen.

but it’s about what WIPOC as a leading player in this industry for the past 10 years have seen. And then that’s far more powerful. And we are talking about redefining the provision of legal services.

I just come back to the Henry Ford quote in my head time and time again, which I’ll butcher if I’d asked my clients what they would want. They’d want faster horses, which of course it was the automobile, which was the breakthrough in innovation, completely different compared to four legs, one to four wheels, of course. Iain, anything you would add to what Ben was saying there? I suppose, ⁓ I think Ben always articulates this point very well and I have heard it before around redefining being different to improving what’s already there. I think that’s right.

you know, this is developing so rapidly, but AI does change the way things are done in many different ways. mean, its ability to recognize and model sort of large patterns and just process data is just something that we haven’t had before. And, and it is an essential part of being a lawyer and a law firm is being able to this. So it immediately

changes the entire landscape and your ability to do what was previously a task. Lawyers, we have huge amounts of data we have to review and analyze and assess and report on on a daily basis. And we now have this tool that can actually do that, so really quickly, so really accurately. And so the real question, and everyone’s got that tool, there’s no advantage having that tool. So then you’ve got to think about, how can we best use that? And I think what Ben said there is right. I think you can use it to improve the…

the way you’ve done things already. But you can also actually, if you embed it into your processes, embed it in, embed it into your culture and the way you work, that’s when you start to see bigger changes in the way you’re delivering these services. And hopefully the experience the client is getting. Today’s Legally Speaking podcast episode is proudly sponsored by Clio. If your legal management software feels more frustrating than helpful, you’re not alone. Many solicitors across the UK delay switching because moving client

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even despite I have the same tool as that individual. I think it’s important that people grasp that as well. so Iain, sort of sticking with you, because I’m a big advocate for future and looking forward and what that might look like, you know, we’re touching on a little bit there, but what role do you see AI and automation playing in the future of legal services and client delivery? And I test you not to talk about billing at this point. Well, that’s funny because I have to debate with colleagues and friends often about, you know, what were the consequences there, but we won’t go there for now. I think

You know, it’s quite interesting you mentioned sort AI and automation because they are two slightly separate things. In many ways, AI is not, or generative AI at least, is not the best tool to use for automating documents because by nature, its outputs are creative. It likes to think, whereas if you’re trying to automate, automation has existed for a long time. Of course, what GenAI can do is it can get you to the point at which you’re inputting into the automation tools.

far more quickly and maybe even more accurately and all the rest. So I think in broad terms, I think what you see is AI increasingly embedded into law firms, systems and and processes. And so what would I mean by that? I think ultimately in an end to end process, each part of that process is supported or led by AI. You’ll still have lawyers interacting and overseeing that platform. I don’t think lawyers get removed from the equation at all.

But ultimately, you’re going to have, if you’re reviewing a term sheet, you’re creating a, I was going to say issues list, but maybe we don’t create issues lists anymore. Maybe we create much nicer reports and things with much more valuable insights. And I think if you get that all the way through to the end, then you’ll start to see a very different way these processes are run in terms of the output, the speed, the quality. So yes, that was.

I think I’m trying to keep it relatively general without getting too granular about it. But I think ⁓ the main message, think you have to embed this in your processes entirely. But I think it is important also to recognise that the lawyers are still there, but they’re just operating on a far, more powerful platform and it’s helping the lawyers do a far, better job. Yeah, I always describe it as I’ve learned through attending talks and hear people speak, it’s a workforce multiplier.

this new technologies wave that can enable you to be an even better lawyer, to be even faster, more efficient, but also give you more time for human judgment, really be a better professional at what you do if you get this right. Probably the biggest question now I think of this podcast coming to you, Ben, and I sort of wrap around this in my head all the time about law firms as tech businesses. know, there’s growing talk of law firms operating more like tech companies. What does this actually look like in practice and what are your thoughts on that generally? Well, I think it largely depends on

what area of the legal market that you’re specifically referring to. And at the lower, more commoditized, high volume end, I think there’s a very compelling case that can be made for law firms to operate more like tech companies. At the very specialized niche end, which is where we sit, I think there’s still an argument, but it’s a more nuanced one because Iain has very validly made the point that

we do not want to remove the human legal expert from this process, far from it. And actually, honestly, tech companies often do that. They look to remove the human element from this and use software and processes and technology in order to do that. That’s not what we want to do. We want to empower our subject matter experts and combine that level of expertise and encode that knowledge into systems that can…

operate far more effectively, far more efficiently than a human alone ever could. So I think, yeah, it comes back to this point I made earlier about the asset base. Ultimately, we’re moving away from just a people led business into one which combines people with technology. Love it really well put and building on that coming to you in how can law firms operate more like tech businesses using data and process design to improve

the client experience, because I strongly believe those that can be exceptionally client-centered are the ones that are to win in this next wave of innovation and service delivery. suppose to answer that, mean, if I talk about, I guess, the way I’m working at the moment alongside, I very closely with one of our data scientists and, you know, on a daily basis. you know, obviously you talk about data, how can we better use data? Well, one thing I think law firms are recognized to have is loads and loads of data, but often that data is in very unstructured form.

and not tagged, not understood where it is, hard to find. And I think law firms that embrace data science and bring in and embed legal technology teams and data scientists into their processes, what are the ones who will succeed here? And so a key point obviously is to structure that data in a form that you can then analyze it properly using this technology. So how can law firms do this and operate more like tech companies? think if you look at the…

Look at what I do as a corporate lawyer, know, lot of what on the transactional side, at least a lot of it is just very process driven. And in the traditional model, you know, that process has really been overseen by lawyers. Yes, we’ve had technology, of course, it’s not, you know, in emails and printers and all sorts of technology over the years. But fundamentally, that process is driven around by lawyers, I think, in the longer run for a law firm and asking your direct question about how could a law firm learn from businesses and maybe

sort of mirror what they do. think the delivery of that process, that service should be done not just by the lawyers, but by lawyers working alongside fully embedded teams of legal technologists, others, maybe customer success people and others. can start to actually think, well, who’s best for this specific task in this process? And I think I found just working for the past year or two with tech specialists and data scientists, they think differently. They come at

problems from a different angle. And sometimes it’s a much better way of looking at it in terms of this process management. And I think that’s something that we will see develop. Absolutely. And Ben, I’m sure you’ve got some thoughts to add on that as well. So I’ll come to you. I was going to give you an analogy that I like to speak about. And that’s imagining a chessboard. And in a transactional scenario, I often think that when a client instructs a lawyer,

It’s like sending someone to play chess for them in that they consider this very complicated picture and they make their move. Then the lawyer on the other side of the transaction looks at this very complicated picture, works out how it’s going to impact their client, seeks instruction and makes their move. And backwards and forwards, this game of chess goes until eventually the transaction can be closed. Meanwhile, you have a client watching this game and sometimes, you know, they’re saying,

Why is this taking so long? And can we not go faster? And isn’t there a better way of doing this? And I have sympathy with that. But there are good reasons why the law has evolved this way, right? Reputationally, ⁓ our name is at risk if we get this wrong. From a liability perspective, if we get it wrong, we can be liable. And these things are inherently complex. So there’s good reason.

But what I would like to see in the future and the direction of travel for us is, well, the lawyer on our side of the board has got a computer chess player next to them. So as soon as the opponent makes their move, well, we’ve already mapped that out and we can immediately make our move so that at least on our side of the board, things can be sped up and be as efficient as possible, which is all well and good. And I love that analogy.

But ultimately where I believe that it could take us is, well, why don’t we just set up the chessboard how we think it’s going to finish rather than having this negotiation over points, which ultimately we can get to. And if we can back that up with suitable data to make everyone comfortable that this is what the market believes is standard, well, then we can compress these deal timeframes from, you know, three months into maybe three days. And then all of a sudden we’re talking totally transformation.

legal ⁓ services that we’re providing. Yeah, and I love that sort of starting with the end already in mind and start, you know, trying to actually map it out. I think if you could get to that, I think you get a lot of clappy clients and I think it’s going to increase demand. know, a of people worry about demand for legal services going out down in the age of sort of AI and what’s been I see it the other way. I think the demand is going to go up and I think it’s a very exciting time for people wanting to get into.

the legal space specifically. We’ve talked a lot about tech and obviously innovation, lean a little bit towards culture now Iain, coming to you, because you have built a culture of supporting innovation at WIPOC. How have you gone about doing that? Yeah, I think it’s very clear for anybody who comes in and joins our team that we’re very, very client focused and that’s the expectation on them. think one thing we look for when we’re employing people and bringing people into the team is to make sure

They have a genuine interest and passion, both for the law, but also for the sector and for the clients we work with. I think it’s really important that that’s sort of natural and organic. It’s not something that’s artificial and put on. And so to a degree, it’s making sure we bring the right people in, people who really, really share the same passion that we do. And then just, you know, we don’t really have a particular sort of structured way of doing this. We just try to ensure that on a daily basis,

We’re checking in with the team, speaking about our clients, setting a standard that the team then adopts and then you get this virtuous circle. So for us, culture, I think is really very intrinsically linked to behavior and character. Love that. Yeah. And I’m a big believer in both. So thank you for sharing that. Ben, coming to you, future, very hard, I think, to predict these days, but what future?

developments can we expect to see specifically in Europe’s legal tech ecosystem over the next sort of five, 10 years? I think it’s going to be an exciting place to be. When I look at the market from the inside now, I find it very polarized. You’ve got legal tech players that are either selling into law firms. I’m thinking, you know, the Harveys and the Goras of this world. Or they have gone

mass market somewhat commoditized, trying to increase the efficiencies of NDAs and standard form MSAs, know, that kind of thing, cutting the lawyer out of the loop and making it a purely tech play. So over the next five to 10 years, in that polarized landscape that I’ve just set out, I think there’s a real opportunity for the niche experts in the middle to be combining their expertise with technology.

And what I think will probably happen is a reshaping of the legal order that may not be dominated by the very large incumbents that we have at the moment. You know, there are opportunities there for someone to come in and rapidly gain market share if they get it right. Iain, and I think you build on that before I come to you both for your final bits of advice. As ever, Ben articulates this very well. I think it’s, you know, it’s a bold statement to say there’s going to be that sort of devil of disruption. But I don’t think it’s

Two out there, think it’s always a question of how long it will take. But I always think it’s one of these things that, you know, it doesn’t happen until it happens. But ultimately there could be some kind of cliff edge after that. At which point we see, we see that kind of rapid change happen. Yeah. And I think all of us need to stay curious, be open to learning, you know, listen to podcasts, network, speak to clients, speak to innovators and just all, you know, have an open mindset because I think there’s a very exciting opportunities ahead for all of us if we just stay open.

to learning. ⁓ And on that coming to you, Ben, then back to you in some final piece of advice. What advice would you give to young lawyers who want to work in venture capital tech and innovation led practices in your opinion? I’ve always found that we’re trained to be billing as many hours as possible. So I find comfort in doing that. And so what I would encourage young lawyers to do, I think, is to run against that grain.

to get out of the office, to push away from your comfort zone, to meet people in this space. Because there are definitely opportunities out there. There are so many events that could be attended. I mean, if you are interested in the emerging companies and venture capital sector, it’s a bunch of people that are very receptive to new thinking and new ideas and new ways of doing things. So go out there and find them would be my first piece of advice.

So important. I talk about that a lot of my talks, you know, the comfort zone is great, but nothing grows there. Go out, go out, network, meet people, you’re one connection away from potentially changing your life. Love it. Thank you. Iain, I think you would say in terms of advice for young lawyers wanting to get into the space. Yeah, mean, absolutely. The networking bit is really, really important and throwing yourself out there and getting to know as many people as possible. I do always say to, not just lawyers when they get into this space, lawyers, if they’re studying or if they’re in

if they’re training at whatever stage, they’re the early parts of their career, the key is still to be a very, very good lawyer as in know the law very, very well, make sure you, you you are when you’re in a room full of other lawyers, one of the best lawyers in that room and make sure because ultimately, is still the thing people are coming to you for. And of course, on top of that, then if you’re focusing on a particular sector, so for us, it’s venture, it’s tech, sciences. Yes, absolutely.

learn, understand that sector, really, really, you know, make sure that it may be maybe something specific within that sector. But you know, you have to have both. And I think on the latter point is, I mean, one thing to say to anyone, law is it’s a difficult career being, you know, it’s a very rewarding career, but it is very challenging and difficult. And I think, always think about that. What are you really interested in? What do you really like? I think be drawn to the sectors that you’re genuinely interested in, because ultimately, you’ll become a better lawyer, become a better advisor, because

If you’re doing something you’re interested in, you just do it better. You learn it more quickly and everything else. So I think what I would say is focus on the Lord. as well as you can in all your exams. If you’re still studying, if you’re doing a training contract, nail absolutely every single seat you do, even if it’s a seat you’re not hugely interested in, just throw yourself in and give the best version of yourself every day. And then that puts you in a really good place to open. You’re basically not closing any doors and then you can actually make decisions. And if it’s venture and tech, absolutely do what Ben says.

read around the topic, meet as many people as you can, focus on the area you’re really interested in. And I think, you know, then you’re in a really good place to have a fantastic career. Yeah. And again, great, great advice, you know, follow your passion. You know, if you’re passionate about it, you’ll lean in and you’ll, you know, you’ll get really, really sort of, you know, pent up like having the passion in both of your voices today about what you do, the work you deliver for your clients. You know, you’re genuinely interested in what you’re doing and that during those bad days, know, careers are not easy. You can have bad days. gonna be days you

question yourself, you doubt yourself, things go wrong and life’s happening. But if you have that passion and enthusiasm for what you do, we’ll carry you through. This has been a masterclass really enjoyed learning about both of your backgrounds and what you’re doing with the firm. And if our listeners want to learn more, or indeed, potentially think about joining YPOG at some point in the future, where can they go to find out more about yourselves, the firm, feel free to share any websites and social media handles come to you first, Ben and then Iain, feel free to share any of your social media handles or ways to get in touch as well.

Well, ypog.law is our website. So I’d encourage you first to visit us there. And if you’d like to reach out to me personally, then LinkedIn would be the best way. So always happy to have initial conversations. Fab. And for yourself, Iain, is that the best way as well? Yeah, absolutely. Feel free to contact me on LinkedIn. think just in addition, the firm does have an Instagram handle as well. think that is also ypog.law. And so if you want to have a little look, I think that’s a more lighthearted site.

So it’s a white box, but otherwise, yes, I’m regularly on LinkedIn and I do tend to respond to people reach out. Great stuff. Well, just thank you so much. Once again, both. It’s been a real pleasure having you on the legally speaking podcast today, sponsored by Cleo, wishing you lots of continued success with your own individual careers and indeed what you’re building with white box. But for now, from all of us over now, thank you for listening to this week’s episode. If you like the content here, why not check out our world leading content and collaboration of

The Legally Speaking Club over on Discord. Go to our website www.legallyspeakingpodcast.com. There’s a link to join our community there. Over and out.