On today’s Legally Speaking Podcast, I’m delighted to be joined by Charlotte Hill. Charlotte is a partner at Penningtons Manches Cooper specialising in commercial dispute resolution, financial services regulation, restructuring and insolvency, described as a next generation partner by the Legal 500, Charlotte is passionate about her work in the sector, and has been awarded Women of the Year, FinTech and crypto innovation UK, at the city wealth power, women awards.

So why should you be listening in? 

You can hear Rob and Charlotte discussing:

– Charlotte Hill’s Career Journey and Path to Partnership

– Building Inclusive Law Firm Culture and Supporting the Next Generation

– Navigating Crypto, Digital Assets, and Emerging Tech in Legal Practice

– Managing Legal Risk and the Role of AI in Litigation

– Regulation, Community, and Advice for Aspiring Solicitors in Commercial Disputes

Connect with Charlotte Hill here – https://uk.linkedin.com/in/charlottehill-litigation

Transcript

Charlotte Hill  0:00  

If you don’t have a network, if you don’t show a pipeline, that you can bring in work in the future, typically you’re not going to make partner. I mean, I now talk quite a bit about AI with deep fake evidence. You’re trying to work out actually, how to minimise things like that that you could be receiving from another party, particularly if they’re used to litigating in other jurisdictions. I tend to find that sometimes riskier. So you have to work out where those pressure points are and just plan ahead every day I wake up to a new email because the market’s rallied or it’s crashed, or there’s a new coin out, a new meme coin. And I just think it’s just so interesting that it means that I just really enjoy what we do

Robert Hanna  0:36  

on today’s legally speaking Podcast. I’m delighted to be joined by Charlotte Hill. Charlotte is a partner at Pennington’s Manchester Cooper specialising in commercial dispute resolution, financial services regulation, restructuring and insolvency, described as a next generation partner by the legal 500 Charlotte is passionate about her work in the sector, and has been awarded Women of the Year, FinTech and crypto innovation UK, at the city wealth power, women awards. So a very big, warm welcome to the show, Charlotte.

Charlotte Hill  1:04  

Thank you so much for having me, Robin. Really pleased to be here.

Robert Hanna  1:07  

Ah, super excited to have you on the show today. And before we dive into your amazing career and all the things you’re doing in around the world of law, we do have a customary icebreaker question here on the legally speaking podcast, which is on the scale of one to 10, with 10 being very real. What would you rate the hit TV series suits in terms of its reality of the law? If you’ve seen it.

Charlotte Hill  1:28  

I have seen I’ve seen all of them. I absolutely. I would say the reality is now we’re on probably a two or three, but pre pandemic, given that everybody used to be in the office and was walking around in their power suits and in court all the time at that point, I would have gone about five or six. There we go.

Robert Hanna  1:49  

And very justified in your answer. And with that, we can move swiftly on to talk all about you. So to begin with, Charlotte, would you mind telling us our listeners bit about your background and career journey?

Charlotte Hill  1:58  

Yeah, sure. So I’ve always wanted to be a lawyer, um, ever since I was 10 years old, apart from, I think I had about one week where I wanted to be a surgeon, because I’d watch casualty one night. Then I thought, no, that’s not for me. And, yeah, I always wanted to go into the law. I didn’t quite know what type at that time, obviously, being so young, but I was always quite focused and ambitious and aimed for that, despite coming from a really ordinary, sort of working class background, state school educated and the like. And so I spent sort of a couple of years going around universities. I think I went to Nottingham law school, did a sort of a long weekend there when I was about 15 to look into it really put me off Nottingham, because where they stayed was really smelly in one of those sort of old rooms that probably doesn’t exist anymore. But straight away, I thought, right, Nottingham is not for me. Not for me. And yeah, and was really kind of looking into the criminal bar to begin with, actually. And took some mini pupillages and thought. And after having some awful stories and things in court that I’d heard, I just thought, That’s not for me, sadly. And so yeah, I know. I went to did my A levels, went to Cardiff uni, read law there because I really fancied the rugby weekends, and thought it was great fun. You know, great law school as well, but I kind of looked at for the social part as well, and then really moved on from there, and found my first job straight out of law school in London at a smaller, boutique litigation firm. Really cut my teeth on some really interesting cases just out of the recession. So it was a really interesting time, lots of subprime lending issues going on, and ended up straight into litigation, which wasn’t what I thought having been through, having read law at uni and then been through law school, wasn’t at all what I thought I was going to do. I remember being in law school hating learning about the civil procedure rules and thinking, this white book is so dry. And anyway, yeah, and then I got into practice, and suddenly I was like, this is fun. It’s like playing chess. You know, we’ve got a strategy. We’ve got some fast paced work. I’ve got some deadlines, and that compared to when I was sitting in kind of the M and A and corporate seats at that time because of recession, were just dead, and we were just article writing, and things really, really stuck out for me. And so, yeah, I qualified 2013 I think it was, stayed at that firm for a few years, really cutting my teeth. Being in a smaller firm meant I could really sort of get stuck in and get involved in some of these cases. And I was running my own cases investigation from day one as a qualified solicitor, which was brilliant. And then I moved to PMC Pennington’s Manchester Cooper 2016 as an associate, and have worked up through and now find myself as one of our 16 partners in our team in a commercial disputes

Robert Hanna  4:43  

absolutely and hugely successful and high flying. And I guess that leads nicely to what I was going to ask next, typical day. You know you are a partner, as you say at the firm, what does that look like for you? Talk us through it.

Charlotte Hill  4:54  

There is no typical day. And I know that’s so cliched, I’m sorry for saying it, but it’s. Just so varied. You know, I try and have one or two days where I work from home, if I can, to lock myself away and really get my head down and progressive on my matters for my clients, and strategize and the like, and set direction for my team to go about and do what they need to do. But then, equally, I could be at a conference speaking. I do quite a bit of that. I could be travelling to meet a client somewhere, you know, could well be partner meetings, team meetings, talking about recruitment and firm strategy and the like. So it’s really varied, but that’s what I really like about it, because I think if I had the same kind of work every day, I would definitely get bored. Yeah, and I like that mixture where, I mean, at times it’s obviously really challenging, right? We all have to juggle so many balls, but it keeps me on my toes, which is what I really enjoy about it.

Robert Hanna  5:50  

Yeah, I love that. And I like dynamic days a lot of listeners. And know, you know, I wear a few hats across sort of, you know, businesses, recruiting, podcasting, getting speak to great voices like yourself. And I think it keeps you energised as well. I find when you’ve got sort of different things coming at you. I want to talk about the kind of leaning on to culture and team a little bit, because your firm were recognised in the lawyer’s latest report as one of the top three of the top 50 UK law firm for female partner promotions since 2020 So managing your team as a partner at the firm, how do you create a more open and inclusive environment so others in your team can come to you when they need help.

Charlotte Hill  6:25  

First and foremost, you have to lead by example, and I think it’s talking on, you know, on opportunities like this and other platforms where you’re able to talk about what’s been hard for you and what is a challenge, you know, as an individual, let alone as a female, or, you know, different things that we all have going on that are challenges for us individually. And so talking about what’s what’s hard, talking about what’s worked for us, and as I say, leading by example and actually showing I mean I very much. I talk to my team about when I take time out, and why I’m taking time out, and actually, the fact that I’m the same look. I just need an hour to switch off, you know, I need to go to the gym. I need to take my dog for that walk, whatever it is. I just need to clear my head and being really open and honest about that, which then I hope, encourages juniors to adopt a similar approach, or at least to have that discussion with me or with somebody else in the team, if they feel they need to. Yeah. I mean, I’m so proud that statistic when that came out, so proud. I mean, as a firm, we’ve, we’ve done amazingly. I mean, there’s always more work to do on those sorts of statistics, and generally in the DE and I space, but we’ve got, I mean, our CEO is female. When you add in our heads of departments across our strategy board, we’ve got more females than male now, only just but we’ve got more females, and obviously we’re very much growing, as you say, statistically, with partner promotions. And I was one of those in that promotion round that was mentioned. And it’s great having just a real mix of normal people working together to, you know, lead a firm, and that, I hope, really does set that example for juniors to see that actually that is achievable if that’s what they want to do, and that there’s a path through for them. And one of the ways that we very much have worked quite hard recently is to enhance our parental rights responsibilities and the like. So you know, a lot more people now in across the firm can take a lot more opportunity to take time out and to share. You know, when you’ve got young children, which is one of the big barriers, isn’t it, to particularly females, going up to partnerships, sadly, many still feel they have to step out, and therefore career takes a side step. But we’ve now got many opportunities where lots of actually, in fact, most, I think, the last three lots of parental leave and my team have all been males taking sort of six months plus off, to be able to take that time with their family and to let their partner go back to work, if that’s what they want to do, which is great, and I think hopefully should become the norm for everybody going forward,

Robert Hanna  8:51  

yeah, because they are, you know, speaking as a girl down here, they’re precious moments, aren’t they, you know, and I think you don’t get those back. And I think there’s also great initiatives, like the future president a few years out, Donna Denise Smith, who’s been on the show, friend of ours, OB, he’s doing great things with, like, oblique support, and, you know, really trying to help. So people like you say, you know, understand that they can still have the career and have a family in conjunction. And I love that you talk about authenticity. You know, you’re leading with authenticity, aren’t you, though, with what you’re saying in terms of, because we’re all human, you know. And I think actually leading with some vulnerability at times to say, I need this break, or, actually, I don’t have the answers right now, or we’ll come back to it. I think it just makes people feel like they’re a safe space. And it’s that human to human connection you have with people, and you build trust and safe spaces, and then within that people then can, can grow. Okay, I want to talk now about switching lanes quite, quite drastically, to crypto and cyber security, because, you know, you specialise in an area I’m all in and fascinated on in terms of emerging tech and digital assets disputes. So that is sort of all thing crypto cyber. So where did your interest in these areas specifically come from?

Charlotte Hill  9:51  

Do you know it? It’s a really roundabout way how I’ve ended up leading the firm’s digital asset team. It’s not a kind of a clear path. It was just it. Was about 2017 I just started learning, probably quite late to the party. Sadly, I found a bit of a bit earlier I would have invested in the Bitcoin, but crypto, I’m just thinking, well, this is really interesting, and my background is financial services, litigation, fraud and asset tracing and a bit of insolvency. And I could just see this new asset class coming through thinking, Well, I’m going to be litigating about this one day. You know, there’s no two ways about it. This is coming at some point in the future, so I better kind of clue up about it. And so I just started, you know, reading books, listening to podcasts, all the kind of usual sort of stuff, just when you when you’re interested in something quite genuinely and just from a sort of tech industry perspective, Robin from a legal perspective. And then, yeah, that’s when I started kind of pulling the two together and thinking, well, here’s some, you know, there’s some common synergies here. This is going to be really interesting. And so it really just developed from there. And then I remember going to crypto con in Gibraltar, which was really good fun. I met loads of people in the industry, and that was about early 2019, I think it might have been, and just starting to get into it. And so I’ve started speaking about it, you know, talking to my team about it, and realising, actually, across our firm, we had a lot of people that had similar interests and actually had a lot of expertise that they could bring from not just litigation, but from all sides of sort of, because we’re full service firms. Service firms, so all sides of the coin and could work, you know, build this team together. And so, yeah, here I am years later, as I say, leading this multi disciplinary team across multi various different offices. We’ve got at PMC all about digital assets, emerging tech, and it’s just a really interesting space. And I think if you enjoy what you do, then actually the rest just comes naturally. And you know, from a disputes perspective, you know, as litigators or disputes practitioners, you know, our expertise is, is that is litigation, for example. Actually, it’s not about a certain industry, necessarily. Some some do and some go in quite bespoke areas. But I keep my practice quite broad on purpose. And so actually, you can quite quickly subsume yourself into these new industries, and once you can talk the talk and understand some of the lingo, it’s brilliant fun. You know, it’s always changing. Every day I wake up to a new email because the market’s rallied or it’s crashed, or there’s a new coin out, a new meme coin. And I just think it’s just so interesting that it means that I just really enjoy what we do,

Robert Hanna  12:27  

love it. And there’s some really good lessons in there as well. And because we’re recording just before 12, it’s a GMT even crypto language as well, right? GM, GM, but I think there’s something a lesson in there, around particularly in the world of AI that we’re living now, that you were, you were curious as a growth mindset you’re reading about it. You were leaning into where the puck is going, the Famous Wayne Gretzky quote that we all know, Kate, where the puck is going. And as a result of that birth opportunities for you from a career perspective, and actually probably put yourself out of your comfort zone, like you said, going to events speaking, maybe where you’re not the expert, but start now and then grab her expertise over time and and you’ll develop. And I think there’s a really nice success story there to where you are obviously now in terms of leading. So if people that are sort of observing things that are going on and looking forward to take action, go to those events, say yes, that speaking opportunity, go and connect with somebody like Charlotte, and you’ll be amazed about what what could happen. Okay, just diving a little bit deeper than in terms of the types of works, I know it’s super interesting for people who may be wanting a little bit more understanding of, like, what things you’re involved in. Could you give us a bit of your your diet of work that you’re involved in, and what some of the cases might look

Charlotte Hill  13:30  

like? Yeah, yeah. Sure. So from a disputes perspective, um, most of the disputes in this industry have been around fraud. So unfortunately, as we know, they’ve been so many scams and Ponzi schemes and the like that have come out using crypto for obvious reasons. So the first one that I was involved in that was reported was a case where I was actually defending one of the companies that had innocently received some stolen Bitcoin, and this poor chap who’d had, I think, roughly about 8 million pounds worth of bitcoin stolen had gone after 20 odd parties, and so my client was one of those parties that was caught up essentially in this fraud, but completely innocently. And so we defended that, and we managed to get the case against our client discontinued. All of their assets had been frozen. We got the freezer lifted. Client could then eventually walk away, but it was one of the it was a, I think it was the first reported case that had been contested. Because prior to that point, in 2020, I think it was trying to think now which year we’re in. Prior to that point, it was just simply one party was going to court. It was against persons unknown. My Bitcoin, for example, has been stolen. Can we freeze it? Can we protect it? And ideally, if I’ve got proprietary interest, can I get it back? So that was kind of the start of these sorts of cases. And since then, there have been lots of contested cases or similar vein, where there’s a fraud or somebody somehow lost their their crypto and they’re trying to get it back. The good news for me is that we are now when, I mean, that’s still around, unfortunately, and I’ve got, at the moment, I’ve got a. Other case where I’ve got 100 odd claimants that are looking to, you know, to pursue a fraudster and get their crypto back. So that still goes on, but they are now just moving to more mature disputes. They’re now just quite normal business to business disputes. I had one last year, last summer, actually, it kept my summer very busy, which I hadn’t planned, but it was great. One of my clients is a UK exchange, and one of their contractors had, they alleged stolen sensitive data in order to set up a competing business. And so we were having to deal with that, obviously, get that data back and look to injunct, and we got an injunction against that individual to stop them advancing a competing business. And that was going on to a speedy trial, and we managed again to compromise that and settle that. Then they now just move on to, like, I say, business to business disputes, normal contractual disputes, all the sort of usual disputes that we as commercial litigators see. The difference, though, is, I would say, and I think my clients will probably agree you can’t. Unfortunately, just have a normal, a normal litigator who doesn’t understand this space dealing with it or not as easily. Because you do need to understand the industry. It’s very different being in the defi world, decentralised finance, world, offline, you know, there’s nowhere. It’s really hard when you’re trying to grapple with jurisdiction and things where you’re going to logically claim what you’re how you’re able to do it, how you’re able to recover it, all these sorts of things. And if you don’t understand that, the decentralised nature of it, and indeed, the type of people that tend to operate in this space, then arguably, you’re not going to get the same sort of results. And so that’s where I think, and that there’s, you know, there’s a lot of very good litigators now in London, particularly that are in this space. Me, I don’t if you know, I’m part of the CIFAR network. I’m a director there, which was established many years ago now, which is exactly that. It’s a group of like minded lawyers, practitioners, experts and the like that all come together that work for the greater good to promote this industry that we have, because it’s an amazing space. And actually, this sort of defi space, as we’re calling it, will soon become normal. It will become sort of the tradfi, normal, traditional finance. And we’re all going to be talking about it like it was, you know, it’s never been brand new in five years time.

Robert Hanna  17:13  

I think exactly. And that’s the way I see it. You know, of course, it’s, you know, it takes time for adoption, and it takes time for everyone to kind of see it, but it’s absolutely going to happen, and that’s why, happen, and that’s why we want to have these sort of conversations and educate people and the professionals doing work in and around it. And indeed, the good work that you’re doing and sharing your message you’ve touched across a number of different work experiences you’ve had, is there one particular memorable case you’ve had to date that you’d like to share with us? And if so,

Charlotte Hill  17:38  

why? I don’t think there’s one in particular, the sort of work I enjoy the most, actually. I mean, I love working for big global companies for for a whole variety of reasons, but the ones that really stick with me are the businesses that I’m acting for that are family led businesses. You know, they could be massive corporate structures, but you’ve still got that family at the top of the group that are controlling it. And for me, actually being able to achieve whatever the result is that they’re looking for, or to stop that piece of litigation before it snowballs, or whatever it is, is really satisfying, because you know, you see the cash moving whichever way it’s going to move, and you’ve managed to mitigate the risk or bring in some damages, or whatever it is for them, but actually seeing that person seeing that personal effect on them as a family, as you say, that human element, that’s what really makes it for me. And that’s when you think, actually, that was worth those really long hours that myself and my team worked, and all the blood, sweat and tears that we shared as a result, you think that, yeah, it really sort of makes it worthwhile.

Robert Hanna  18:39  

And it’s that intrinsic value, isn’t it? You know, you’ve helped out a family at the end of the day in whatever it be, use the word there, which I wanted to ask you next. Actually, it leads nicely on around around risk, because when you are advising on these big cross border litigation, especially multiple jurisdictions, what is your actual approach to managing the legal risk?

Charlotte Hill  18:59  

It really varies depending on what what the type of risk is and what the client’s goal is. So it could simply be a case where you say to your client, and you know you’re defending a matter, and essentially say, Look, you know you’re going to have to pay something here. Are you going to have to pay probably some large sums. You know, obviously you’re not telling your opponent any anywhere near that. But you know, when you’re advising the client. You know, you are on the hook here. So what can we do to minimise that for you? And actually, what is that risk? Is it just financial? Is it reputational? Is it, you know, it could well put your company into restructuring or insolvency processes, trying to work out for them where the real pressure points are, and then work out a roadmap in order to get them the best outcome for them at that time. And it’s quite likely, particularly if you’re defending an action, it’s not going to be one that they ever want, sadly, but it’s still trying to work out what that best, worst outcome is for them, and then position them in a way strategically, as I say, to strategize to get them there at a certain point in time. The other way, of course, is the. Claimant is you’ve got other risks coming at you where suddenly you know there could be unknown pieces of evidence that come out. I mean, I now talk quite a bit about AI with deep fake evidence. You’re trying to work out actually, how to minimise things like that that you could be receiving from another party, particularly if they’re used to litigating in other jurisdictions. I tend to find that sometimes riskier. So you have to work out again. It’s where those pressure points are and and just plan ahead and do what you can at all times. And I think always, for me, particularly, I talk to my clients, I always just say, let’s just take a step back. Let’s just reflect, you know, like we can get into the detail and we will get into the detail, but high level, let’s just reflect on what we really want here, and then we’ll find a way

Robert Hanna  20:39  

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Charlotte Hill  22:04  

forward? I mean, it’s here already, right, as in generally, but for litigation in particular, and it’s only going to grow. I’m fortunate I’m on our firm’s working AI policy group, so we, we’ve brought in a lot of people all across the firm to sort of develop this policy, and we’re taking a cautious approach. I’d say actually, you know, we haven’t jumped in like some others have and brought, you know, all of the singing and dancing pieces of AI that should do everything that still doesn’t, arguably, but we are bringing in, and we’re very much looking at business use cases, and we are using AI tools for the right job. And so, for example, our real estate team have got the most amazing piece of software that can analyse titles in seconds rather than weeks. And I had a big property fraud recently where they had exactly that there was 150 odd properties they need to look at as to whether my client even owned the properties, and if so, what the terms were and the leases and the like. And within about half a day, they produce this most amazing schedule for me that I could then analyse and manipulate and understand in order to deal with this fraud. So, you know, we are using it litigation wise. I mean, we’re using it in terms of we have, you know, the sort of AI research tools. We are looking to bring AI into our document management system to help kind of just, you know, summarising things and checking compliance points and things like that. We’re not yet using it for or we obviously use it for things like dock review and things, but we’re not yet using it for testing of evidence and witness statements and the like. And I know that’s something I’ve been speaking actually with some of the judges about that at various different events with the lsla, and that’s something that the courts are very much still grappling with and whether that’s going to be even permitted, and if so, quite how and whether we need to be disclosing that and being transparent with our opponents and with the court. So we’re not yet using it for that purpose, but I know other firms are, and I’ve heard actually really positive things about it. So I think it’s here to stay, and I think actually we all very much need to get on board with it. Because the problem is, if we don’t now, even though a lot of it isn’t yet perfect, six months time, we’re going to be so much further behind and then trying to play catch up, and we’ll be nigh on impossible. Exactly.

Robert Hanna  24:12  

We’ve had piers. Linney from from Dragon’s Den, co founder of implement AI, come on. And you know, we’ve done a lot of collaboration. He talks a lot about the ship has left the harbour, yeah. So you know that is not turning around, whether you like it or lump it, is going in that direction. And now, if you haven’t adapted, you need to at least start to try and play a level, because it’s just going to continually go at exponential, fast speed. So I think, like you say, is absolutely so so so true. Um, okay, we’ve talked a lot about sort of, you know, there are lawyers in the crypto space? There are some in the dispute space, I would argue that room for more. So some lawyers are perhaps hesitant in terms of engaging with crypto disputes. So what would you say to those who might be unsure about stepping into this space, potentially future lawyers as well?

Charlotte Hill  24:56  

Well, I think flipping future lawyers, I mean, this is such a great space. For them. I mean, if assuming, and typically, most of my juniors do, assuming that as a junior, you have an interest in tech and, you know, these new, modern ways of the world, like I say, this kind of defi space, because I do, I do think if you don’t have an interest, just don’t bother to be perfectly fine, because you’ll only go so far. If it’s just because you think I should do this in my career. But if you’re into it. I think, actually, you know, as you said earlier, Robin, I think, raise your hand, you know, come along to these events, speak to me, to my peers, to my colleagues, to others in this industry, and actually, just ask questions, because we all have to start somewhere. As you say, you know, we’re all human. We’re all perfectly nice and normal. Most of us are and, you know, we will happily, I mean, I will chat to my heart’s content. You know about this? I could chat about this all day, this sort of interesting area. So I think just get involved and get stuck in. I think for those that are already, you know, have their own experiences in different areas. I think so long as you are using the right experts who obviously understand the industry really well, and so long as you’re using the right barristers as well, you know, as solicitors that that can advocate properly for you to explain it properly. I think there is space. However, there are some people out there, unfortunately, that say they can they understand it and just don’t, because they just think it is just another asset class. And so we can deal with it like we can deal with Sterling. And unfortunately, you just can’t it is just different. And unless you’re going to invest the time and the energy and really understanding it properly, and actually, unless you’re going to get into the industry and meet the key players in the industry who will who will gladly help you and educate you again from an industry perspective and a technical perspective, then I just think again. I think, don’t bother, because there’s so many other areas of law out there, particularly in litigation, that you could get into. So if you know, if you’re doing it, just because you think you should and you need to jump on that bandwagon, I would say, forget it. But if you’ve got any element of an interest, come along to see far events and other events that various different communities organise and just get stuck in because we all want to share. We all recognise, actually, there’s going to be so much work. Well, there’s already so much work out there for us all. There’s going to be a lot more. So it’s not as though we’re all trying to keep it just for ourselves, and we’re going to have a battle. It’s not that kind of community. So I think get stuck in and see what

Robert Hanna  27:19  

happens. And the word there community, it’s something I’m super passionate about and believe in. And lots of people actually say to me, Rob, I’ve seen another legal podcast start. Are you? Are you worried? Or I’ve seen no. I think it’s good. I think it’s, you know, where there’s where there’s things happening. Shows there’s demand, shows as interest, shows there’s growth. And people, you know, if you’re good enough, you’re always going to be able to find enough anyway. And I think a good point you mentioned there, as men meant so to be very early on. Every masters wants a disaster right to start, like to start crapple, understand, learn as you go along. And I think that’s been a good theme throughout this discussion. Okay, one of the things that get talks about regularly when it comes to crypto, of course, is regulation. So do you believe there’s enough regulation surrounding crypto? And if not, what changes would you like to see the government actually implement?

Charlotte Hill  28:05  

A good question. There is more talk now about future regulation, and the FCA has finally started to sort of get its wheels in motion. And there’s, you know, that there’s now going to be regulating stable coins, and they’re looking at, you know, kind of all the ETFs and the like, which are now around for retail customers. So there is regulation in place, and there was going to be more regulation over the next coming years. The whole aim behind regulation, as we know, is to protect, particularly from the FCA perspective, to protect consumers and the real risk here. And as I said, a lot of the disputes that have gone on so far in this industry are about fraud. And unfortunately, they are, you know, Joe blogs off the street who’s invested his pension or something in crypto, and sadly, doesn’t understand it properly, and it has been, you know, it ruins their lives. Yeah. So regulation does need to happen, without a doubt, and that protection needs to be in place. The problem is, a lot of the regulation that’s been there so far, or the little there is has been stymieing business and has been preventing it from growing and testing and developing as it should. As most sort of startup industries need to to find out what works what doesn’t work. You know how we need to move different paths and things and so as a result, a lot of businesses have either not, not grounded themselves in the UK, and when they were looking at jurisdiction shopping, where to go, they’ve decided not, not to come here, or they’ve left here. And that, you know, that was particularly 345, years ago now, when, you know, people were looking for licences and the like, and actually, the FC were just taking so long, they said, right, well, we’re out, or you’re asking far too many questions, or whatever it is. So I think there’s a balance to be had, and I don’t think we’re there yet. I think there is still more work that needs to be done. I think the Law Commission have been doing great work, though they’ve been lobbying parliament, but they’ve also been collaborating with industry, with the legal teams, and as we. Lot, they’ve been feeding that back, and having that bridge has been really helpful. And I think that’s the way this needs to continue going with the FCA as they do actually, you know, I’m seeking consultations and feedback, but actually people putting in the time and effort to complete those consultations and providing that feedback, because if we don’t tell the FCA what is or isn’t working for our clients, and if our clients don’t do that, then they’re never going to improve. So I think again, it kind of goes back to that collaboration piece that I think has to happen in order for the greater good to go forward.

Robert Hanna  30:30  

Yeah, and my listeners will be sick to death of me saying it, but collaboration is domination. It’s so, so true, and you’re touching there around the FCA, so it’s going to be my next question, actually, because you have featured on other podcasts, which, again, we absolutely support, the legal 500 legal landscapes podcast, where you discussed, actually the property, digital assets bill and the FCA evolving role as you’re touching on there. So for businesses, what are the key developments they need to know aimed at actually tackling illegal crypto activity? In your

Charlotte Hill  30:58  

opinion, I think it is understanding how they can operate within the legal framework, within the UK, and that isn’t, unfortunately, that straightforward an answer. And the problem is, a lot of these businesses are coming in at a startup point where, clearly they don’t have much budget to spend, and this kind of advice isn’t quick and easy, and therefore it’s not cheap. And so, you know, unfortunately, we have many clients that come to us and things start to go wrong, and at that point they say, well, we need help. And then you really have to help them unpick the situation and then build it back up properly, by which point, if you’re looking at getting regulated, or you’re already regulated in some way, shape or form, you’ve lost the FCA faith, and you have to start to build it back up. So I actually think it is starting from the ground up, working with these businesses at whatever level and whatever budget they have to help them navigate their business case and whatever it is they’re trying to achieve. So, you know, if they are trying to sell into the UK market, then suddenly they’ve got lots of FCA perimeter work around them that they need to be complying with and it’s helping them just build those blocks as they grow, and again, managing that risk, because there’s always a risk, and it’s just working out how we can reduce that as much as possible, and indeed, how our clients can show to the regulators that they’re doing what they can within their Ambit in order to protect the people that need protecting while developing the business.

Robert Hanna  32:20  

I love that point. It’s so, you know the point you mentioned there is, like, doing what you can actually showing you’re doing because, because doing nothing is a risk, right? And so you know what you’re alluding to. There is what, again, when I first started setting up businesses, it’s getting the right infrastructure or getting the absolute best, because otherwise you could be building on quicksand, and that could potentially cause you catastrophic errors, typically, when the business burst starts, unless it’s a really key piece of IP, or there’s some form of technology that, you know, it’s got exponential growth. The business is worth nothing. But actually, as over time, it’s going to quite accrue you value in some capacity. And if you have not got the right infrastructure or continuously working on managing that risk, as you say, then you potentially are decreasing that depending on what your goals are. But if you’re looking for an exit or acquisition or raising, these are super important things, and that’s why getting good quality counsel is so so vital. Is so so vital. And okay, I want to talk about some of your wider roles, and there’s a fair few here, because you’re the chair of the Amir multi laws young lawyers group, Vice Chair of the cyber insurance Association, Vice Chair of the Law Society, civil justice committee. I’ve probably missed a load as well, but just talking through each of those roles, what projects have you contributed to and most proud

Charlotte Hill  33:22  

of? Oh, gosh, yeah. Like you say, I’ve done lots. And this goes back to, I think some of the early bits we were discussing, sort of as a junior, I was always really keen to get involved in networks. I recognise really early on, the value of a network, and I just love meeting people and picking their brains. Actually, I’m just really nosy. Probably why I’m a good litigator. I just, I have a thirst for for information and for knowledge. So, yeah, I got involved. I mean, I got involved really early on with the junior London solicitors litigation Association, and led there as the president, and then went on to the main committee when I, sadly got too old. Couldn’t be part of the real fun ones, but so from the lsla that then opened up a whole other raft of doors for me, and that’s when I first learned about the Law Society Council having a role available. And so I represent, at the moment, civil litigators, all civil litigators across the country, apart from personal injury, which is a terrifying number of people trying to represent and advocate for them, but actually being involved in the Law Society, and that’s how I know Dana Dennis Smith really well as well. It has been really, really interesting, because you sit there and you learn about, I mean, you know, I’m a litigator in London. I do cross border, fraud, commercial dispute type work. You know, it’s very bespoke. When you and I realise that, and I reflect on that, when you then look at actually what say, for example, or civil liberties teachers do. And you hear about the guy in wherever up north that is a one man band or two man band having these really awful experiences to do with, you know, court backlogs in the county courts, or whatever it is. And it’s really eye opening and actually being able to advocate for everybody in that sphere. I. Yeah, and to try to push forward reform for the greater good has has been, yeah, I’ve been really proud of doing that. I think it’s been an amazing experience. And again, it’s kind of opened other doors. So as you say, on the Civil Justice Committee, which then we’re inputting into, you know, sort of all the cost reform and funding reforms and changes in the CPR and various different things. So again, that kind of then brings it back for me, for my job and what civil litigators do, then we can then have an influence on that and share our experiences, then shape it for the greater good for our clients who choose to litigate in this jurisdiction.

Robert Hanna  35:34  

And it speaks to so many things that I talk about, which is the two eyes really in business, which is either having good quality information or good quality influence, and you do that through what I describe as NSN, never stop networking, right? And you’re continuously doing that and building around and wrapping around networks. And even for our listeners that know, for the show, you know, even though we’re 400 odd episodes in we first started our first ever episode to remember to this day with the London young lawyers group, because we knew that was an access community at the time that was run by the brilliant Oliver haddock, who’s now running the careers at it, and obviously Nicola, who’s fantastic. Nicola, who’s fantastic. And you know, that was a way to kind of build and get noticed, and network and new opportunities come off the back at that. And like you say, the more you kind of immerse yourself and get into this networking and growth mindset, the more things come your way. Absolutely love it, and I know you do a lot to help the next generation, particularly, you know, something, something passionate about yourself. So is there anything in particular people listening to this that you do in terms of helping them that’s worth just flagging?

Charlotte Hill  36:29  

Yeah, I think there actually is. Rob myself and Maria Miller, a barrister at Maitland chambers, created a network called a mindful lawyer, three years ago. Now, I think honestly, I lose track of time, time just a year ago, but it’s definitely, we’ve definitely had at least three years worth of events now. And ironically, we started this network after a couple of glasses of wine and some dinner. And Maria won’t mind me sharing her story with you, which was that she said, this has been lovely, Charlotte, but I now need to get home my at that time, her one year old daughter, you know, has gone to bed. You know, I didn’t get to see her tonight, but I’d love to get up early and spend some time with her tomorrow before she goes to nursery I go to work. Yeah, and actually, we then said, Well, why do we always have to network like this? Why does it have to be into an evening having some drinks? I mean, don’t get me wrong, I absolutely love doing that. I’m all for it, but you know, why do we have to do that all the time. Why can’t we network in the morning or at lunchtime or whenever throughout the day? That suits us? And why? Why can’t we do something that isn’t always having a few drinks and I’m not feeling the best the next day? And so we created a mindful lawyer with a view to doing just that networking differently, essentially. And it was aimed particularly and it is aimed particularly at was all levels. But I particularly wanted to do this to help my juniors, because the new cohort of juniors coming through, typically, you know, want different things. Now. They don’t want to be working necessarily such long hours. They don’t want to be going out of an evening, eating and drinking, getting in late, feeling tired, not being able to go to the gym. You know, it’s just a different sort of vibe, I suppose, as to what I grew up when I was training, mine was a very different thing, but accepting that and embracing that and actually encouraging that is something I really wanted to do, and I wanted to make sure that we could help juniors network still. Because the problem is, if you just decide I’m going to come into the office, come into the office, and actually, I was listening to your podcast few weeks ago with Oliver haddock saying exactly this, which is, you can’t just go into your office, do your work and go home. You have to network. You have to do BD. That’s part of your job. Even as a really baby Junior, that’s still part of your job. And I think that is true whether you want to become partner or not, but certainly, having been through the partnership track over the last five years or so, you know, having been there, if you don’t have a network, if you don’t show a pipeline, that you can bring in work in the future, typically you’re not going to make partner. And so for me, getting my juniors involved, even at trainee level, I think, is key. And I am I line manage a few trainees. And I’ll say, Well, what are you doing? BD wise. And they’ll say, Well, I’m writing an articles. And I’m like, brilliant, fab. That’s great. But what about these events you join? I’m going to all these events. Why don’t you come with me? And they’re like, Oh, can I absolutely, of course you get please. Do you know, go to as many as you can. And so a mindful lawyer was created with that in mind, and so we have hosted morning yoga classes at the sky gardens, followed by networking breakfast. We’ve hosted these. This is my exercise themed ones, but spin classes of an evening, but then with some drinks and non alcoholic drinks after, for those who want to stay, lunchtime breathwork sessions we’ve done, you know, we’ve hosted panel events for things like International Women’s Day. We did an afternoon at a vineyard, so a whole variety of things. But it’s really interesting, because you see the certain, certain types of people. I couldn’t even say what those types are, but certain individuals always want to come in the morning, and it suits them, because, for whatever reason, others just can do lunch time, and they say, literally, I need to, like, pop in for 45 minutes and pop out other. Say, do you know what? Actually, I’d love that glass of wine after a spin class. Once I’ve got the endorphins going, let’s have a chat and let’s network. And so it just creates those opportunities that I hope people can find net ways to network that they might not otherwise have done. That means actually they can enjoy it and they want to do it, rather than feeling forced and dragged along. And yeah, that’s what we’re still trying to grow, and it’s been going from strength to strength, but there’s lots more, and hopefully we’ll get more involved, yeah,

Robert Hanna  40:25  

and it’s a flywheel effect, you know, a lot of people would have read the book Good to Great, you know. And it’s about energy inputs, whatever it is. And I always think of yourself as the energy you know, the more that you can put in, in terms of events, collaborations, network, the more the momentum starts picking up, the more opportunities the red car theory, all of these things start happening to you. And as our listeners will know, and I said all the time, you’re only one relationship away from changing your life. It could be a mentor, could be a next hiring manager, business opportunity, whatever it might be. And I think that’s why you just need to be around people with that like minded energy to bring out that in you. And I think it’s great what you’re doing. And you know, we’ve seen that when earlier this year, we were out in Ibiza with the lawyers retreat, doing, um, some some yoga focused interviews as well. But, you know, off the back of that, we’ve also then gone on and we’ll be releasing them a live Lounge, which, you know, which was with DJs that have done stuff with Calvin Harris and David Guetta. So all these things come out of kind of putting yourself in the situation, and getting out there and meeting people and all of that good stuff. And I just absolutely love what you’re doing. So I think it’s the modern professional. And I think the other thing you mentioned there is, well, nothing changes, and nothing changes, right? And the next generation don’t want to do what you and I did. It’s just a fact. And if you do, you’ll have a high retention rate, and your reputation will go down the pan, embrace it and actually look at the good and actually like, meet them where they’re at because lifestyle matters to them. Wellness matters to them. They don’t want to get burned to death by the billable hours, not for them. And so if you recognise that and actually collaborate and put on good stuff, then you’re gonna bring out the best of people, and it’s gonna be a win, win. This has been an absolute fun masterclass of an episode. Really enjoyed it. Charlotte, I know I could sort of speak to you for hours, but if I could kind of bring it to a closing question, and you given so much advice throughout. So it’s probably gonna be a little bit tricky. But for those that would like, again, focusing on next generation, what advice do you have for aspiring solicitors who are interested in commercial disputes and indeed, financial services regulation and want to learn more? Maybe one or two top tips, I think, for all,

Charlotte Hill  42:13  

all aspiring next gen type lawyers, don’t stop trying. Just get involved. You don’t have to be perfect. You know, you don’t have to be good at everything, but try it, and if it doesn’t work, that’s absolutely fine. You know, we’re all going to fail, and when we fail, we’re then going to get better. And it’s not failure, it’s just part of your success story. So I just think, keep keep going along, you know, keep showing up, keep raising your hand. That’s what I’ve always done. Sometimes it’s worked, sometimes it hasn’t worked, but I think it really stands you in good stead. And I think you’re right. Rob that. I think you know from that energy, you get more energy, and you vibe off each other, which is brilliant. So I think that’s my main piece, financial services, crypto. I think if you’ve got an interest, just come along. There are so many events going on now. There are so many conferences. But don’t just come along, sit there, take a note and go home. Actually come along, ask a question. There is no stupid question. And I know everybody says that. I know you we haven’t cringe and think, Oh, come on. But it’s so true. And actually, just reach out to those of us that are in the space and ask, you know, can I come along? Can I have a chat with you after could we have a coffee? You know, nine times out of 10 those people are going to say yes, because, as you say, it’s very much paying it forward. You know, people have done that for me over the years, and I’m more than happy to do that for others that have an interest and, you know, just pick our brains, and it might help. It might not. But worst case, you’ve had a nice conversation

Robert Hanna  43:33  

with somebody. Love it, yeah, and fortune is in the follow up. You know, I think information is great, as I alluded to, but it’s acting on information or moving to the next step, because you got to move things forward. And I love that you talked about, you know, again, lots of lawyers get stuck on this, but Done is better than perfect, because perfect never gets done. There is no sort of form of perfect out there. And again, I love that you talked to also about, you know, I’ve had loads, loads of rejection. The leading is being podcast would have never been a thing if I’d listened to a lot of people or the not that sort of happened along the way. And then we’ve obviously gone on and look at yourself in terms of your career and what your career and what you’re leading and what you’re doing at the very height. So again, I remind our listeners of my acronym, which is lose, which stands for life, offering some experience so you never actually lose. You take that experience and you move forward. This has been wonderful. Thoroughly enjoyed it. Charlotte, if our listeners want to learn more about you or indeed, the firm or things you’re involved with, where can they go to find out more, feel free to share any websites, any social media handles. We’ll also share them. This episode for

Charlotte Hill  44:24  

you too. Wow. Thank you. My main hangout is LinkedIn. I’m always on LinkedIn, as you’ve seen Rob, I always follow all your your five, five ks that you’re doing, yeah. So yeah, please reach out on on LinkedIn, and then, yeah, I’d love to chat more.

Robert Hanna  44:37  

Thank you ever so much for your time today. It’s been an absolute pleasure having on the show, wishing you lots of continued success, but for now, from all of us on the legally speaking podcast, sponsored by Clio, over and out, thank you for listening to this week’s episode. If you like the content here, why not check out our world leading content and Collaboration Hub, the legally speaking club, over on disc. Org. Go to our website, www.legallyspeakingpodcast.com. There’s a link to join our community there, over and out.