On today’s Legally Speaking Podcast, I’m delighted to be joined by Deborah Farone. Deborah is an internationally recognised marketing strategist and CEO of Farone Advisors LLC. She advises leading law firms, professional services organisations and executives in Europe, Asia and the US on business development and leadership strategy. Deborah has lectured at top universities, including Cornell Law and NYU. She is also the best-selling author of Best Practices: Marketing and Business Development for Law Firms and recently released her latest book ‘Breaking Ground: How Successful Women Lawyers Build Thriving Practices’.

So why should you be listening in? 

You can hear Rob and Deborah discussing:

– The Power of Authenticity in Legal Business Development

– The Importance of Early Relationship-Building and Networking

– Overcoming Unique Challenges for Women in Law

– Strengthening Business Development Skills Through Practice and Resilience

– Embracing Change: Diversity, Training, and AI in the Legal Industry

Connect with Deborah Farone here – https://www.linkedin.com/in/deborahfarone

Transcript

Deborah Farone  0:00  

Rainmakers don’t spring from the head of Zeus fully formed. They’re built over time. Men and women, what are the big differences in how they develop business? I wasn’t really clear on it, and I remember years ago thinking maybe there should be something for women, but it was in the background. I thought, let me help all people. Let me help all lawyers. Let me help everyone. And then I started hearing more and more from women, particularly over the last 10 years, that they were really having trouble figuring out how to develop business that firms were not necessarily teaching them business development in the right way. They would do one and done programmes, and then everyone would run off and do their own thing. It was a matter of timing and staying open to things and knowing that I wanted to start a business.

Robert Hanna  0:43  

On today’s legally speaking podcast, I’m delighted to be joined by Deborah farone. Deborah is an internationally recognised marketing strategist and CEO of farone advisors LLC. She advises leading law firms, professional services organisations and executives in Europe, Asia and the US on business development and leadership strategy. Deborah has lectured at top universities, including Cornell Law and NYU. She is also the best selling author of best practices, marketing and business development for law firms, and recently released her latest book breaking ground how successful women lawyers build thriving practices. So a very big, warm welcome to the show. Deborah, oh, Rob, so nice to be here. Oh, it’s an absolute pleasure to finally have you on the legally speaking podcast. But before we get into all the great things you’ve been up to and your recent book, we do have a customary icebreaker question here, or two. First being first, what is your favourite beverage and what is your preferred choice of footwear during a work day?

Deborah Farone  1:44  

I love those questions. Well, I can answer the first one very easily. My my favourite beverage is coffee, and I always have it on my desk, especially if I’m speaking to someone, helps with a dry throat, and I can never have too much coffee. My favourite footwear during the day, if I’m at home, it’s probably Uggs really comfortable, because when I’m out fancy shoes with a fancy label, so I’d rather wear Uggs at home.

Robert Hanna  2:12  

Yeah, I love that comfy Uggs comfort all the way with coffee CNC, and with that, we can move swiftly on to talk all about you and your incredible background and career journey. So to kick us off, would you mind telling us a bit about your background and career journey?

Deborah Farone  2:26  

Sure, the short version is, when I graduated from college or uni, as you say, I worked at a public relations agency called Ketchum. I loved it. We had so many different kinds of accounts, but the one account that I loved working on was a law firm, and I kind of kept in the back of my mind, if this legal marketing ever catches on, I really want to do it. I was recruited to Towers Watson, the management consulting firm where I worked for a few years, until they relocated their marketing department, and then was hired by debavoice, which was an amazing law firm there for 14 years, and then I left to go to Cravath, which was also a terrific law firm, and I was there for another 14 years.

Robert Hanna  3:11  

Yeah, and there’s a lot to unpack there, because you’ve worked for some of the world’s best law firms, you know, incredible reputations, incredible quality of work. So let’s get into Cravath then, because you were the former, you know, chief marketing officer there, what drew you are you sort of touched on it, but what drew you specifically into legal marketing? And when did you realise it was an area you could truly transform a law firm?

Deborah Farone  3:35  

What I loved about legal marketing, and I think what I really learned early on, was that lawyers could be involved with so many different kinds of clients, and it was such an interesting type of business to me, and I loved the idea of working with professional services. And so the idea that a lawyer could talk about so many things was smart. Was a great individual to kind of consult with, I thought, was just magic. And I think because the Bates decision was decided however many decades ago, and law firms were just starting to Market, I’m someone who loves a challenge. And I thought, What a great challenge to kind of get these firms to market themselves as professional companies would.

Robert Hanna  4:17  

Yeah, absolutely. And you did some incredible things there. It has to be said, and probably a big decision to then, sort of after two decades in big law, very senior leadership roles, to launch your own business. What motivated you to do that?

Deborah Farone  4:30  

Well, I had done what I call my, my, my two up, three legged stool, right? I had worked at a at a firm where I was consulting, which was great fun. Then I had been in house for a chunk of my life, for 28 years, and worked in house next door to those people who were so brilliant, these great lawyers. And then I thought, well, the third thing would be to go out on my own and have my own business. And I love working with individual firms and individuals. Years, and so for me, it was just perfect. And at the time, I had been offered the chance to write a book, a publisher had come to me and said, you know, we’re interested in getting out a book about legal marketing, and we think that you have some interesting experience in the area. So I think it was a matter of timing and staying open to things, and knowing that I wanted to start a business. So it just culminated in the perfect in the perfect storm at the perfect time.

Robert Hanna  5:29  

I love that sort of curious, open growth mindset, as well being open to opportunities and that entrepreneurial flair that you’ve clearly got built within you as well. I’d love we’d obviously talk more about your book shortly. I would love you tell us more about some of the services and a bit more about your company, some of the things that you get up to. And again, for folks who may be less familiar, feel free to tell

Deborah Farone  5:48  

us more. Oh, I would love to. Well, it’s everything dealing with how to help law firms get business. So it’s many cases. It’s a larger strategic plan. You know, a firm might hire me and one of the people who I work with in finance to come in and help them structure and redo their plan for the next five years. And that’s great fun, and I love doing that. But I also will work with practices and departments on their plans, because very often that’s where the rubber hits the road. You know, that’s really where things are happening. So I do a lot of work with practices, teaching partners how to run practices, helping them create a marketing plan. And then I also work with individuals. So I’ll work with individual partners if they have a particular management issue, if they have a leadership issue, but mainly business development issues. So I coach a number of those people each year as well. But it’s, it’s great fun. It really is so interesting, because you really get to dive in deep to the business and each law firm, each law firm, is very different. You know, they have different cultures, they have different leadership styles, they have different collaborative networks that they work with. And so it’s fascinating work, but really anything to help someone really develop business as an offshoot of that. I’ve also been asked to help a number of law firms develop or redevelop their marketing departments, and so I often go in and I’ll do a gap analysis. I’ll figure out where they are now, where they want to be, how to get there.

Robert Hanna  7:26  

Yeah, it’s amazing. And I think the one thing I noticed you’re able to do is really turn them into sort of thriving practices, particularly being you’ve helped firms across, not just the US, but Europe, Asia, develop, you know, their business development, marketing as you’re touching on there. What trait do you see in lawyers who consistently build thriving practices? From your experience?

Deborah Farone  7:47  

You know, there’s one trait that I didn’t expect to really be able to put my finger on before writing this book, but I think it’s authenticity, that they are authentically curious about people’s businesses and how they operate, and that’s a real part of who they are. I think that’s what makes a great Rainmaker. But then they find authentic ways of marketing. You know, they market in a way so that if they’re not into social media, that’s okay, but maybe they’re into, you know, having people over for dinner or going out for lots of lunches, or maybe it’s public speaking, but it’s not social media that’s okay. They can still develop business those ways and market those ways, but I think if they are really authentic and if they are curious about people, they can do so well. It’s just finding your your style and finding your niche.

Robert Hanna  8:42  

It’s so true. And I love that you say leaning into way. Perhaps you are strong. I talk a lot about having a WAV strategy for people who may be at different stages of social media, WAV, standing for written, audio or video. Maybe you don’t like doing video, but maybe you’re a fantastic writer, or maybe you’re a great speaker. So podcasting, audio format might be quite good for you, or video does work well for you, and leaning into actually, which of those that strategy works. And so you’re saying like, for example, if you like in person, you can do in person, or you can do this, you can do that, and all of these different ways, still can actually generate you business relationships and everything else. Okay, I love that your mindset on business development is starting early. Is what I would wish more people have told me before starting businesses and everything else, because you share business development starts years before a lawyer becomes a partner. So what should young associates listening to this today be doing now to plant those seeds?

Deborah Farone  9:35  

They should really consider that any associate that they work with, any partner, could become a client one day. It’s incredible, because people move so much in the legal profession, particularly now more than ever, you have to build your reputation early on and treat people like they are potential clients. I teach a programme for one of the large law firms, and I always say when I’m. Speaking to the associates, look to the right and look to the left, because one of you will be a client one day, and it’s very, very true. So I think they have to start early, and that means going to the social events that the firm has. That means doing outstanding work. That means volunteering for foreign opportunities when a firm is doing something involving another country or a firm in another country, and so being an involved and active citizen in the firm is so vital for associates. And I even tell people in law schools, I’ve taught courses at Cornell and University of Pennsylvania and all over and I always tell them, start building relationships now, you don’t know where people are going to go, and you can’t really put your money on one or another, so just be good to people and stay in touch with them and use LinkedIn. So I hope that that that works for them, but I think the evidence is that the more senior partners that I spoke with for this project, but also just over the years. Very often, I’ll ask them how they got their biggest client, and the sentence will start with, I’ve known them for a long time, and that shows these relationships need to be cultivated over time.

Robert Hanna  11:16  

I love that, and I bang on about that to our listeners all the time about you, potentially only one relationship away from changing your life. But contacts are good. It’s the relationships that play. So how can you follow up with those nurture those relationships. Sprinkle gold dust on them. Over time, be valuable. Grow that network. I love it. Yeah, you’re talking about everything that I love and just yeah, I’m nodding here, being like, yes, Deborah, absolutely. You talked about, I’ll borrow your sprinkling gold dust

Robert Hanna  11:45  

all over and it’s, you know, it’s going deep, isn’t it? I think, you know, lots of people think you know, some of these big ticket headline things happen overnight, but no, you know, sometimes these relationships can take years of fostering, nurturing, and you build up that trust, don’t you? You build up that level of sort of understanding with one another, and then suddenly that opportunity comes. That opportunity comes when you least expected it, but that’s the value that you’ve built up over time. Want to talk about authenticity, because you did talk about that and touched on it earlier, once sort of taken a slightly different direction, the same but similar direction, because authenticity is such a big differentiator, I believe, and I think you believe in business development, but what does this look like in practice for female lawyers?

Deborah Farone  12:22  

Well, it’s interesting. I think female lawyers have a slightly different problem set in in most cases than male lawyers, in that there are fewer role models for women lawyers. There are at least in the US, only 25% at the very most could be considered leaders of law firms, and so you have more women graduating law school and fewer women reaching the top. So I think what women need to do is either find different role models, other women in other industries, or people within the firm, or men, which, you know, I’m not opposed to women looking at men as role models, but what it looks like? You know, I think if you think about authenticity, there are people like Susan and Allende, who’s at Baker, Mackenzie, who’s incredible, who doesn’t like the word networking. She’s a partner there, very successful, but what she does is she loves taking hikes and walks in the morning, and she invites her clients when they’re in town to join her, or her friends, her colleagues, people who you know may never give her business, but who she just likes. And she does these daily walks, and she’s incredible. You know, she also hikes and she runs and she does a bunch of other things, but she’s always inviting people with her, and that’s one way of of networking, without using the word networking. There’s another woman, Stacy Phillips, who I spoke with, who’s at blank Rome. And she loves cultivating business. She loves cultivating people. She’s just great fun to be with, and super, super smart, and she’s a brilliant matrimonial lawyer. But what she does is she has dinner parties. She feels very comfortable entertaining people at home, and she puts together fascinating groups of people who may never become clients, but who are interesting people. And that’s both her way of socialising, but it’s also her way of developing business. And so I think by finding ways that are authentic to you. I think that’s a huge help, particularly for women.

Robert Hanna  14:26  

I love those examples that you gave, and it just reminds me of when we were out in Ibiza last year for the lawyers retreat, and we did our first sort of mic and hike. And actually, through doing some miking and hiking, I like both of those, when you know A client came off the back of that relationship, and at the time it was just to get to get to know people more have that conversation. You know, a shared, you know, it was an optional hike around Ibiza. And it’s just like you say, when you put people in those environments, and it’s that human to human connection that natural environment, then things can come from it. And this leads nicely, actually, on to what you call, which is, marketing is a muscle. So you’ve. Shared that previously, what would be your top three tips for lawyers looking to sell themselves or strengthen their business development skills, perhaps on what you’ve already shared or to reinforce what you’ve already shared. I love that expression of marketing as a muscle.

Deborah Farone  15:13  

Jeff Klein, who is a lawyer at Wild gotcha, considers business development to work, and said marketing is like a muscle. I believe what he really meant was that, over time, like anything else, you get better. Whether you’re reading something by Malcolm Gladwell, where you’re just looking at your own behaviour, the more you do it, the better you get. So that’s the first thing that comes to mind. Second is that it’s fine to start small. You know, very often I’ll work with timid lawyers, very nervous about developing business and even discussing their practice area and what they do. And for them, I tell them, start by taking out an associate for lunch and talking to them about your practice. Then take a current client out and start talking to them about their practice, and then eventually you’re going to be more comfortable with other people. So I think that that does help over time. And then the third thing, as far as marketing is muscle, is that you should realise that most people are just like you. You know, everyone else has kind of a fear. They have imposter syndrome. They have whatever you want to call it, and that means it’s okay to kind of realise that this is going to take work. It’s a long term proposition. Rainmakers don’t spring from the head of Zeus fully formed. They’re built over time. And so it does take time, you know, I hope people use the tools to get there.

Robert Hanna  16:34  

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Deborah Farone  17:53  

I knew that answer, in fact, at the beginning of my my book breaking ground, I talk about how I can’t really answer that. I’m not a sociologist, but I can see that there are effects of bias. When I consult with firms, very often, I find that there might be some women leaders, but when I look at the compensation committee, where power is really derived, very often, there are very few, if any women on them. And so I think that there is a bias that still exists. And I think that things can get better if firms realise that and realise that they need to work on it. But in the meantime, I feel that women can kind of grab hold of the tools which are developing a niche, starting and building a network, and using these various techniques that I lay out in the book to be able to build their own success. There are firms that are still keeping an eye on what’s going on. As far as diversity in the US, it’s quite difficult because of our current paradigm that we have going on with our government. But I think that the smart thing is to realise that a diverse workplace is going to be a better workplace, and to make sure that everyone is represented at the senior most levels.

Robert Hanna  19:14  

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, encouraging that diversity of thought and bringing in that that rich sort of experiences from different backgrounds is so, so powerful. Let’s talk more about breaking grounds. I think it’s excellent. Your new book, you know, breaking ground, how successful women lawyers build thriving practices, and what inspired you to write the book initially, and what gap in the conversation about lawyers were you most determined to fill?

Deborah Farone  19:42  

At first, I didn’t want to write this book. I thought, you know, men and women, what are the big differences in how they develop business? And I wasn’t really clear on it. And I remember years ago thinking, maybe there should be something for women, but, but it was kind of in the background. I thought, you know, let me help all people. Let me help. All lawyers, let me help everyone. And then I started hearing more and more from women, particularly over the last 10 years, that they were really having trouble figuring out how to develop business that firms were not necessarily teaching them business development in the right way. They would do kind of one and done programmes, and then everyone would run off and do their own thing. And I kept on hearing from women that they were having a tough time and they wanted advice. And I began to coach a lot of these women, some of them from Europe, some from Latin America. And I found that this was a universal kind of song that that was being played, but I knew that there were also women, you know who were incredible at it, like Anna Lisa reali, who’s in Milan at chiamenti, who is just the gold standard of business development. People love working with her, and rather than pitching people and being obnoxious about it, she takes them to the opera, because she was trained as a classical musician, and she loves the opera, and she invites clients and their families to go to the opera and go to dinner. And I thought, there have to be a lot of Anna Lisas out there. And while there aren’t a lot, there are some. So I wanted to find those extraordinary women who found it natural to develop business. And that’s what I did. I thought, let me get the two sides together, as if we were having a seminar, but having women tell their own stories. So I hope that’s what the book does. It gives the stories of these women who have been, you know, ultra successful by any measure, at developing practices, and hopefully others will learn from them and take lessons.

Robert Hanna  21:38  

Oh, they absolutely will. And I think it’s an incredible book, and everything, you’ve put together a lot of hard work, I know I’d like to start at chapter one, because in your book, chapter one, you highlighted, for many women, the biggest hurdle isn’t ability, it’s access. Too often they’re not in the room for those formative moments, the casual lunch with the client, the walk back from a meeting where insight is shared, or the pitch where a seasoned partner asks for the business. So how does being left out of these informal but formative moments impact women’s abilities to become rainmakers?

Deborah Farone  22:12  

I think it’s huge. You know, in other industries, it might be a big deal, but I think in law, it’s an extremely big deal because lawyers learn from precedent, and they tend to look for examples to make sure that what they’re doing is right. They don’t love rejection. In fact, Larry Richards, who’s a social psychologist, has done a lot of great work on this, saying that, you know, lawyers are probably the least resilient of anyone in any profession, and so they don’t like to hear no. They don’t like to face failure, and so they’re constantly looking for people who are setting precedent. But if you’re not in those meetings where you see people pitching and you help them prepare, and you go to the lunches where they’re networking with people, if you’re not invited, that leaves out a big portion of your training. And unfortunately, people tend to gravitate towards others who look like them, who act like them, who they feel comfortable with, because they’re not trained to look for diverse members to bring, and they don’t necessarily think, well, what can someone else add to this conversation? So women do miss out on that. And I tell, you know, the people that I coach make sure that you’re asking, you know, for these opportunities, but realise, if you don’t get them, create them yourselves. You know, ask, ask people out to lunch, do this. You know, get a partner together with you and or as a group of allies within a firm and go after clients that way.

Robert Hanna  23:44  

I love that. Take self accountability. Mentor said to me, if it’s meant to be, it’s up to me, like the more you can take that if it’s not there, go and create that opportunity. And I think another thing that I learned very early on, which, again, someone told me, which I think builds on what you’re saying there, is Rob more gets caught than taught. So what they mean by that is the environments that you’re in, that you’re maybe not in. You’re catching those turn of phrases. You’re catching how they take that you’re whatever. And these things actually really imprint on people that learning from being in the room, that environment, having that exposure, actually lands sometimes a lot better than perhaps being formally taught things. And both have their merit. But the point being is, like you said, that you know, you’ve got to get in those spaces and places become what may somehow and actually be able to catch that experience so that you can take it to nurture yourself and keep building and building and building, and that leads nicely on to talking about building practices, actually, because in the process of interviewing more than 60 successful women lawyers, including two actually of our legally speaking podcast alumni guests, Priya leili and Jordana copinha, who are Good friends of mine, what surprised you most about how they build their practices?

Deborah Farone  24:44  

I hate to say that the answer is that they all do it their own way, but in many cases, they do, excuse me, they find ways that are authentic to them. That’s number one. They do it in a way that that feels right to them. There’s. A psychologist that said to me while I was writing the book, and it’s in the book, she said, when you bring what you do naturally into business, you know, it doesn’t feel like you’re playing a role. You know, people really do believe you. So I think authenticity is is a major part of it. I think also they build trust. They are constantly trying to build trust with clients, and that is so key. They don’t see these relationships as transactional, as one off, and because they don’t, because they have a long term perspective, they’re able to build trust. And trust is a combination of a number of things, but, but mainly it’s the having the expertise. It’s being authentic, and it’s being empathetic. It’s those three things. And if we look at the banking industry, they denote, you know, they’ve done lots of work on this, and they denote those three things, but people don’t talk about it in law, which is fascinating, that what builds that trust? And I do think it’s those three things. And so the women that I spoke with, whether they were in Botswana or in Asia or in New York, I think they were all very good at building trust. And it’s incredible that you’ve you’ve interviewed two of two of my favourites. In fact, you know, when you talk about building things over the long term, which many of these rainmaking women do, Jordana and I have known each other since She interned for me when I was at Cravath. We then met later on, 10 years later in our our new, reimagined life, but, but those long term relationships also matter. So I don’t think it’s one thing. There’s not one easy answer. And, you know, they’re very often books written. There are two that I can think of in the in kind of in recent history, where they’ll give systems, or they’ll say, you have to be this kind of person in order to develop business, and that is, I think, absolutely wrong. You don’t have to be a type of person. I think there are lots of different ways of doing it, and I think you have to do it in a way that’s authentic to you.

Robert Hanna  27:14  

I think so as well. I think you know more believable, more trust, more enjoyment for yourself as well going along with it, I think is important. I mean, it’s a phenomenal resource, the book, I mean, plays devil’s advocate a little bit people are busy. There’s lots of books out there, and you’ve obviously written this book specifically for an audience. So what would you say if people are sort of scratching around thinking of books, what sort of main pain point or sort of relief. Do you think your book offers to people so they should go out and absolutely give it a go and read it?

Deborah Farone  27:44  

I think people wanted real examples, whether it was men or women. You know? I always feel like, well, tell me how people are really doing it, you know, let me have the real tips. I don’t want to hear the theory. So I do have a little bit of theory in there. Most of it’s not necessarily from law firms. It’s from educators in different areas, like Nicholas Christakis, who teaches at Yale, talks about connections and how you build connections. And I think it’s fascinating, and I think it applies to law but for the most part, I have stories from incredible rainmakers. They happen to be women. That’s my sample, you know. And if you wanted to get scientific, that’s who I studied for this. But I think that these are stories that relate to all lawyers. One of the people who helped me edit and proofread the read the book, she is actually in real estate, and she said, Oh, wow, this gave me a tonne of ideas of my own practice. So I think it deals with anyone who’s selling a professional service, but particularly women, women lawyers. And I hope those stories really do resonate with people, because again, that’s what I remember. You know, I can easily spout off the story that someone told me, I have a lot of a tougher time spouting out a theory or applying a theory.

Robert Hanna  29:06  

Yeah. And again, remember when people said to me early on, Rob, you can tell all of the facts, but it’s the stories that have worked. So facts tell, but the stories really sell. And I think that’s so true. You know, because people can connect with stories that can connect with lived experiences, they can really understand people’s challenges, their successes, and everything else we touched on this some throughout the conversation. I love your approach. I just want to sort of go a little bit deeper in terms of the relationship building, you know, making sure it should feel natural, not performative, you know, not fake. So what are the small habits that can transform sort of personal connections into potential sustainable business? In your view,

Deborah Farone  29:41  

that’s a great question. I think you know you have to treat each relationship differently. I don’t think you could say that for each person. I’m going to call them in three weeks. I don’t think systems like that necessarily work. Some people don’t want to be bugged in three weeks. And if you don’t really have something additive to provide. The conversation, then it really doesn’t make sense to do it. So I think you have to look at the people that you’re trying to develop and create your own authentic way of reaching out to them. There’s an incredible lawyer who I spoke with at Gunderson, Detmer, which is one of my favourite US law firms, and was one of my favourite first clients. And she said to me, you know, I had my child draw something at a client’s event, you know, to be creative and to keep them busy. And my client liked it so much, they took the drawing and they they put it in their boardroom. And I was thinking, wow, she like, took one of her children’s drawings and she showed it to the client, and what a personal approach that is. And she wasn’t thinking about business development. She was just thinking about relationship building and being nice. There is another wonderful woman who I spoke with who said every time she’s out, if she sees the client’s product, she takes a photograph of it, and she sends it to the client and says, Yes, I loved seeing your product in that store. So there are things that you can do that really do feel authentic. But I think instead of saying, Okay, I’m going to send everyone X memo, think about that client and what matters most to them, and know enough about those clients so that these women, I have a checklist in the book that I give out to clients on occasion which has kind of the 20 or so odd things you should know about a client. But these people who I interviewed know those things. They know who the client reports to. They know what matters to the client. They know who reports into the client, all of those things. I think you really have to know your client and know who you’re having the pleasure with, and be able to, you know, market appropriately and build a relationship appropriately.

Robert Hanna  31:57  

Yeah, and I feel the more personalised it is, the better. You know, small touches, I always say, but big impact. And, you know, a lot of people heard me say it time and time again. But specific is terrific, right? The more specific you can be to that individual in terms of understanding what makes them tick, or what’s within their within their roles, or certain things they like, or maybe they’ve got a favourite sports team, and you’ve got a discount code for a ticket, you know, all these little things could maybe add value and show that you really want to know about them and you care about them. And I love that you say, you know, be kind, be nice. Because, yeah, you know, we’re in, we’re in the world now where, I think hopefully business environments are changing that we don’t need to do cutthroat things to get results. You can just be nice, you can be kind. You can just, you know, go out there and build these authentic relationships, and good things will come from it. Okay, I want to switch from books now to lecturing. We touched on it briefly, because you’ve done some huge lecturing at top, top institutions, you know, canal law, NYU, etc, etc, teaching sort of, you know, the first, I think, university courses on legal, marketing. So what did you enjoy most about lecturing?

Deborah Farone  32:52  

It’s so nice when you see people’s eyes light up and you’ve taught them something, you know, that matters. And that, to me, is that’s gold. That’s the greatest feeling. And so I really enjoyed teaching, and I love just seeing how different people learn. You know, not everyone learns through the written word. I mean, as you were saying, you know, sometimes people lead by example. And when I was teaching, I would invite people in to come co teach with me. We would teach together. But I think, you know, what was so helpful about being an instructor and speaking at law schools and speaking at NYU was that you get the chance to learn how to work with adults in teaching. And it’s a different thing. You know, when I give talks at law firms, I make sure that, you know, every 10 minutes, we’re kind of switching the tone or switching the activity, or giving them something to think about, or giving them like a I call them mini projects, where you have to write down x, y, z. And so I think by learning those things about how to keep people involved, how to keep them interested, is really just so important. And again, I think it goes back to seeing someone’s eyes light up and they say, Wow, I really learned something. I really got something out of this. Or they follow up with a question, which is great. You know, you want to hear from people afterwards.

Robert Hanna  34:13  

It’s that intrinsic value, isn’t it? You get from like you say, you’re educating, you’re passing on your knowledge. They’re genuinely enthused. They’re excited. They want to go out into the world and impart what you’ve shared with them. And I think that’s just hugely, hugely intrinsically rewarding. Business Development is obviously so important. It’s the lifeblood of every business really. We’re in 2026 What do you think business development will look like for the remainder of 2026 and again, we’ve talked about this, but how will authenticity drive growth over this coming year?

Deborah Farone  34:47  

I think it’s more important than ever before. I think with all these lateral movements that we see within law firms, and we know that laterals, you know, 50% of them, only stay four or five years, and then. They’re gone. I think that you know, business development is going to be so important to those laterals, those people that come into a firm and are told, we have to build a business. So I think there will be more concentration on that and how you get them into the stream of developing business right away, and also how you analyse who should be joining the firm as a partner, and who shouldn’t, so I think it’ll be very important for that. And I I’ve seen firms up their training programmes immensely over the last year, and I think that will continue, and that’s a good thing, because I think the way you train someone when they’re an associate and they’re just starting out is different than the way you train someone on business development as a senior associate, or as a young partner, or as a more senior partner. So I am seeing firms really build out those programmes per age group, or, I should say, longevity group within a firm. And I think that that’s going to happen Lastly, I think AI gives us a great opportunity with lots of different things, whether it’s helping to write the thank you notes that you need to write, or reminding us to do something, or agentic AI pulling together various systems. You know, it has, I think, a very high potential for changing the way we do things.

Robert Hanna  36:19  

I couldn’t agree more, and I can’t believe we nearly went a whole podcast without mentioning AI. Podcast without mentioning AI, actually, we live in this has been fascinating discussion. Deborah really enjoyed learning about your your background, obviously your book, which I highly recommend, and just so many great insights when it comes to business development, marketing and as we go on. So I guess Finally, before we let you go, for those that are maybe interested or inspired now about pursuing maybe a career in legal marketing, what would you say to those people and those individuals?

Deborah Farone  36:47  

Oh, well, they should certainly follow me on LinkedIn. I give lots of information about legal marketing, so that’s number one, but I would also join the Legal Marketing Association. There are chapters in in the UK, we have a European kind of chapter, or their chapters all over the US, which I think are very, very valuable. And then I think, you know, keep your eyes open. You know, read whatever you can. Read books. Read my book, read Heidi Gardner’s books, read David ackert’s books. I think they’re all really worth reading, and take it upon yourself to educate yourself, just the same thing that we said about women in business development. I can’t change the world and then bias, but I can at least help individuals build their practices. And so I think we need to take responsibility and try to do it ourselves.

Robert Hanna  37:40  

Yeah, absolutely. And you’re putting yourself out there and helping so many people and giving them lots of resources and getting touched on it there. But if people are interested, which I’m sure they are, in terms of wanting to know more about your business, or indeed, grab a copy of your book, where can they go specifically to grab copies or get in touch with you? Are there any specific websites or social media handles? We’ll also share them with this episode for you too. Absolutely.

Deborah Farone  38:03  

You know, they can always go to my website and there’s order information there. My website is Deborah farone.com or they can go to Amazon to get the books if they’d like, or PLI, the publisher practising Law Institute. So there are lots of ways to get the book. I’m very active, as I mentioned on LinkedIn. I also do some Instagram. So it’s Deborah farone best practices on Instagram, you’ll also get pictures of my dog, Lucy, Mrs. Lucy doberman. She has her own handle as well. So lots of different ways.

Robert Hanna  38:41  

I love that. And again, human, you know, you’ll connect with people in different areas. You know, that’s what I love about it. And this has just been really, really nice. Deborah, I’m really appreciated your time. It’s been an absolute pleasure having you on the show. From all of us here on the legally speaking podcast, sponsored by Clio, wishing you lots of continued success with your career and future pursuits. But for now, from all of us over  and out. Thank you for listening to this week’s episode. If you like the content here, why not check out our world leading content and Collaboration Hub, the legally speaking club, over on Discord. Go to our website, www.legallyspeakingpodcast.com, there’s a link to join our community there, over and out.