Join us for a deep dive into an innovative tech solution for the legal industry. Meet Adam Sharf, the COO & Co-Founder at Pigeon – a legal tech firm that’s transforming the way that lawyers and paralegals go about collecting and filing documents. He talked to us about his experiences in creating a customer-focused company.  

So why should you be listening in?  

You can hear Rob and Adam discussing:  

• Adam’s previous roles in the legal industry 

• Pigeon’s unique name  

• Advice for legal tech entrepreneurs 

• Improving digital customer experiences 

• Pigeon’s unique selling points and solutions  

Transcript

Rob Hanna 00:01 

Welcome to the legally speaking podcast. I’m your host Rob Hanna. This week I’m delighted to be joined by Adam shaft Adam is the co founder of pigeon, a Y Combinator backed platform. That’s all about streamlining document collection for law firms. Adam completed his Bachelors of Science at the University of Oregon. Before going on to study at Harvard Law School, he has experience at Nebraska’s Attorney General’s office, and has also been a two times summer associate at Kirkland and Ellis, before moving on to start his very own venture hidden. So a very big warm welcome, Adam. 

Adam Sharf 00:39 

Yeah, thank you. It’s great to be here. Rob. 

Rob Hanna 00:41 

I was a pleasure to have you on the show. Before we dive into all your amazing projects experiences to date, we do have a customary icebreaker question here on the legally speaking podcast, which is on a scale of one to 1010 being very real. What would you rate the hit TV series suits in terms of its reality of the law? If you’ve seen it on a scale of one to 10? 

Adam Sharf 01:04 

Oh, gosh, a reality of the law meaning like, like the actual way that they practice? That’s the idea. I mean, I spent two summers at Kirkland and Ellis I was pushing papers, looking for grammatical errors on on contracts and side letters of most favoured nations clauses, I mean, that we had none of the drama and none of the excitement. So I’ve got to give it to as close to zero as it could be. 

Rob Hanna 01:31 

talking from experience with that will give you the zero. And we’ll move swiftly on to talk all about you, Adam. So would you mind telling our listeners about a bit about your background and career journey?  

Adam Sharf 01:42 

Yeah, definitely. So I was born and raised in San Diego, California. And after spending my my childhood there, went to school in Oregon, at the University of Oregon, eventually made my way over to Harvard Law School where I did two and a half years before leaving school to start the company that I work on now called pitching documents. So we raised pre seed funding from Y Combinator, which of course, is the famous startup accelerator that, you know, seed companies like Dropbox, DoorDash, Instacart. Stripe. So that’s been my journey so far. 

Rob Hanna 02:23 

Yeah. And it’s been an impressive journey. Take yourself back to Harvard. What was your experience of studying at Harvard Law School like?  

Adam Sharf 02:30 

Yeah, it was incredible. The most intellectually stimulating and challenging period of my life definitely. And from the peers were just incredible people driven, talented, and brilliant, and taught me really a lot, I think of lessons that were valuable, that really set me up well for the rest of my career. And then, you know, the professors were amazing. The curriculum was amazing. And during that time, I really I really had the opportunity, actually joined the Harvard Law on entrepreneurship project, which really was my first exposure to actually being close to startup founders, I worked with startup founders on helping answer legal questions for their businesses. And it really inspired me to want to start my own company and ultimately leave law school. I still have a semester left to graduate. So I promised my, my, basically all my family. I’ll do it at some point. But for now, I focused on pigeon.  

Rob Hanna 03:30 

Yeah, and we’re gonna talk a lot more about pigeon shortly. I think it’s great stuff that you’re doing. You gave a bit of a teaser earlier on, I would again, talk me through your, your journey, because you’re also and we have an audience all around the world. So some that will be familiar with the US legal system, some that aren’t. So, you know, you were a legal clerk at Nebraska is Attorney General’s Office. And that sounds interesting. So tell us about, you know, that and you know, for those not familiar with the UK, I mean, the US legal system, what did your role involve there?  

Adam Sharf 03:58 

Yeah, definitely. So I was I was actually it was during law school, I was an intern there. So essentially just, you know, work to with the, the, you know, Attorney General’s Office of the State of Nebraska, help do legal research and writing. You know, after my first year of law school, I thought I would want to be a litigator, or I guess a barrister is that that you call them? So I didn’t want to. I don’t want to do litigation and be focused on really legal research and writing because I loved that class my first year. But then I got to the Nebraska, the Nebraska State Attorney General’s office, and pretty quickly realised that I wasn’t quite cut out for it. I mean, we were I was doing research and writing on some brutal cases. I mean, cases of, you know, the state. I mean, just one case in particular, I remember where kids were, you know, taken from their parents home by the state attorney general’s office. Because of claims of, of abuse, but, you know, there was it was obviously, like, there was a big back and forth over whether there like really was abuse or wasn’t abused and like how that all related to the law and like, the States dropped like job in that, you know, if there was abuse is to take the kids and put them into the foster care system, which obviously is, is a really scary place to be as well for kids. And, like, I was just doing research and writing on on that and like, contributing to the state’s case, you know, in this, in this really contentious and emotional and, and dramatic, maybe a little bit more like suits, kind of have a case, and just realise that that’s, you know, it’s not kind of the place I want to be in, I don’t know that I quite have the stomach for it. And I guess in that sense, you know, being a founder is a bit of a cushier job.  

Rob Hanna 05:49 

Well, also, you know, it’s good that you tested things, you know, early on, and you’ve got to sort of experience what might be right for you might not be right for you. And so all I always say all experiences good experience, because it can push you in a direction that you may ultimately wish to wish to go. So sticking with that direction of travel, you’re also I believe, but correct me if I’m wrong, Justice Justice Initiative fellow as well at the Louis de banderas Centre for Human Rights Under Law. So what type of work were you getting involved with there? 

Adam Sharf 06:16 

Yeah, so that was very focused on title six claims. So So as part of the Civil Rights Act in the United States, title six essentially ensures that there’s no discrimination, harassment, or bullying, bullying on campuses, for it will for any government kind of funded programme, but on campuses for on the basis of race, ethnicity, or national origin. So that I had a role there, essentially guiding students who had been, you know, bullied or harassed or discriminated against on campus, through their process of filing title six claims, and providing guidance and advice on kind of how to deal with it on campus. Um, so that was, you know, extremely, I would say, uplifting it was it was really moving and meaningful to get to work with students in times where they, you know, maybe felt a little vulnerable and felt like they weren’t safe on campus and talk them through, let them know that they had support, you know, through the legal system and through the Brandeis centre. And, yeah, it was really an amazing thing. And it’s, you know, there’s title six claims are coming up a lot again, now, you know, I’ve been done with the Brandeis Centre for a couple years now, but they’re coming up a lot again, now on American college campuses. You know, a lot of those kinds of claims are being pushed right now with everything that’s happening. So definitely, it’s, it’s good to have had that background and experience. 

Rob Hanna 07:50 

Absolutely. And like you say, you’re getting a lot right range of, you know, experiences as well, very early on. You touched on before as well. Kirkland, Nellis. So you were a summer associate. They’re 21 and 22. I believe. So you said in jest some of the responsibilities but talk us through like for people who might be curious about what an awesome summer associate looks like at cainy? What you’re getting involved with, and how was your time overall at Kenny? 

Adam Sharf 08:16 

Yeah, sure. The summer programme there is, it’s great. I mean, they they, you know, we get to meet a lot of different people who are high ranking at the firm partners, as well as kind of later on associates and just spend time networking with them learning about their job and what they appreciate about the job. And yeah, a lot of coffee dates, networking lunches, dinners. So it wasn’t exactly, you know, hard work for the summer. I’m not really sure why I don’t and I’m not sure if it’s this way, in other countries, but in the US these big law firms do summer programmes that are really kind of recruiting focus where they’re trying to bring you in for kind of the long term after you graduate. And, yeah, as far as the work itself, you know, I was doing a lot of work, focused on m&a corporate transactions, funds, doing work for funds, and definitely learned a lot about what it means to be a corporate lawyer. And, you know, the hours that are required from the associates in kind of the work that’s expected the high quality of work. And yeah, ultimately, while I really enjoyed the experience, and and think I took a lot away from it, I decided that maybe wasn’t what I was most passionate about, or where I could contribute the most, you know, with my specific skill set.  

Rob Hanna 09:42 

Yeah, absolutely. And so we’re going to sort of move on to your specific skill set and your entrepreneurial side, in terms of you mentioned, briefly pigeon, because you’re the co founder and CEO of pigeon, so would you mind explaining a little bit more detail? What pitch is also what inspired the name? 

Adam Sharf 10:03 

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, I’ll pick the second question for our So what inspired the name was, you know, a carrier pigeon. So because we do help businesses with their document retrieval process, so that, you know, the idea of a carrier pigeon, of course, it’s tightly related there. And as far as what pigeon is pitching is a platform that helps businesses and, you know, really kind of, for now focused on on a lot of law firms streamline their document request and collection workflows. So, you know, as a law firm, you likely as part of your process, need to collect series of files from, you know, many different clients. And so pigeon allows that whole workflow of go reaching out to those clients, letting them know what you need to submit, actually giving them a place to upload those files in a streamlined and organised way, setting up automated email reminders, as well as tracking their upload progress both from your side as the firm as well as from the client side. So it helps to kind of streamline that whole workflow.  

Rob Hanna 11:04 

Yeah, I love that. And it’s so important, you know, we want to be getting more efficient in the age of AI tech advancements happening. So soon, these are the sorts of tools that are going to help you be far more productive, and actually provide a better service to your clients. So these, these are sort of tools that are really keen to have conversations around. You mentioned, again, previously, pitching is a Y Combinator backed platform. So tell us again, what that means a little bit more detail. 

Adam Sharf 11:30 

Yeah, so um, what it means is that Y Combinator, you know, selected us from, you know, they get 10s of 1000s of applications. And they selected us to be one of the companies that they invest in and help to advise, as we’re growing as a company. So I think that their acceptance rate is, you know, under, I forget if it’s 2%, or 1%, but very selective, and they essentially invest the first check, they put in the first track. And then they advise you, as you’re building the business, and introduce you to additional investors help you raise, you know, additional rounds of funding in the future, which, which we already have at this point. And stay on as an advisor through our journey to really help guide us and ensure that we’re building this company in the best and most sustainable way so that we can ultimately, you know, delight our customers, and help our customers delight their customers. 

Rob Hanna 12:27 

Yeah, I love that you talk about delighting customers, because it’s what we all want to aim to achieve, right. And then you build brand new bring reputation, you build trust, and you get longevity. And you mentioned, it’s a very low statistics of people have achieved what you’ve been able to achieve. So maybe there’s some legal tech startup founders and entrepreneurs listening to this, what’s like a top tip you would give to them to try and get to the level of what you’ve achieved? Or to get that recognition or get that backing from a Y Combinator? 

Adam Sharf 12:53 

That’s a great question. You know, I would say, work on a problem that you’re so passionate about. And that is such a big problem that kind of no matter where you’re at, in life, you can’t help but to go and pursue it. And, you know, when you have that kind of passion, and that’s obviously what you know, I had and what drove me to leave Harvard Law School before graduating, you know, leave my nice, cushy job I was set up for with with Kirkland and Ellis to pursue this. You know, it’s kind of having that passion. And I think that when you come with that approach, I mean, first of all, you’re going to be more committed and build a much better product for your clients. So you’re going to have more interested clients, and you’re going to be able to help them solve their problems in a better way. And that obviously leads to kind of, it’s a positive feedback loop, where, when you’re so excited about a problem, and you go to solve it in a really exceptional way, you’re gonna get good feedback from your clients, they’re going to be excited, because, as you mentioned, everyone’s trying to delight their customers. And if you’re helping them do that, they’ll be really appreciative. And then you’re just gonna get even more excited about, you know, the problem you’re solving and, you know, funds and people like the people at Y Combinator, they really can feel that they really understand that when someone’s passionate about a problem, and solving a problem that’s really meaningful to customers. So like you said, with, you know, streamlining the document collection workflow, I mean, it’s a huge deal for a lot of our clients because their clients and their reputation to their clients, a lot of it has to do with how they’re handling these processes. Is it a pain for their clients to upload files? Is it a pain for their clients to figure out what they need to send in and to have to kind of go back and forth and multiple times over the phone just to send in the file so that you can start working on their case. And when that is a big pain point for your clients. You know, as a law firm, it starts to impact your reputation. So you really want to make sure that you know that’s being done as it as effective Give away as possible. And yeah, as I mentioned before, when it is done in a really effective way clients are happy. And in places like Y Combinator get excited, because you’re excited. 

Rob Hanna 15:08 

Yeah. And I love that you talk about passion, because I say, that’s the one thing that will carry you through. Because also, none of this is straightforward, you’re going to face rejection, you’re gonna have tough days, you’re going to feel you’re going back 100 yards, some days, but, you know, keep going. And once you kind of celebrate the little wins along the way, and you can maintain that passion. You know, that’s really when you talked about pain points. And again, a mentor said to me, and I said, it’s quite regular on the show specific is terrific, particularly when you’re trying to get sort of engagement and talk to somebody or a particular client, the more specific you can be, to that a pain point, the far better response you’re going to have. So let’s relate that to pigeon because we’ve touched on this, but let’s get quite deep businesses need to collect documents from clients, but the process is often disorganised time consuming and insecure as a quote you’re probably quite familiar with. So how does Pidgin really alleviate these issues? Give us some practical examples? Definitely. 

Adam Sharf 16:03 

So I think, to really approach this question, we first have to understand how law firms are doing things without pitching. And the way that they’re generally doing things, it’s kind of one of two ways. One of them is over email, where they are sending out, you know, to all of their different clients that they’re onboarding lists of documents that they’re going to need submitted as they proceed through the case. So they’ll send out you know, a list over email and say, hey, please send these back to me, when you get the chance. The alternative, you know, approach to that is kind of doing the same thing, but just including, you know, a secure Upload link. So kind of like a generic portal where clients can go and dump documents, but still kind of making that request over email and asking for the files over email. And I mean, you can just imagine what a mess that is, you know, if you have, you know, 10s of clients, or even hundreds of clients, you have multiple paralegals, making those requests to these clients. I mean, what ends up happening is, I mean, first of all, some clients just don’t reply, they don’t send the documents, you as the paralegal or you as the attorney have no way of keeping track of that. And then as they do start to upload files, maybe they’ll send two in one, email three and a second email for a few weeks later, and end up being in multiple email threads, you have to spend countless amount of hours going back and forth, letting the client know, hey, that file that you submitted, it was it was too blurry, I couldn’t see the picture, or you submitted the wrong file, please resubmit it, and having to compile those different emails into one kind of Dropbox at some point. And, and, you know, it’s becomes very burdensome and tiresome to keep track of. And there’s a lot of additional administrative burden that’s placed on paralegals, and sometimes attorneys as well, that really keeps them from doing what they do best, which is, you know, for a paralegal, ultimately, you know, being an extension, you know, of the lawyer and in some ways as far as, you know, their job and then also for attorneys doing their job. And so we’re pitching really helps is it simplifies that whole process into just one streamline checklist. So you are able as a firm to create your series of itemised request checklists that you can save down as templates in one click, just send that directly to your client, not just to their email, but you can also send it via SMS to their phone, the client can click in and see that whole checklist of items, they’re gonna have to submit with all of your instructions organised in that one place, and start uploading files. And whether they’re coming back, you know, submitting everything that day submitting it in, you know, weeks or months down the line, it’s all going to be in that one organised checklist that when as your paralegals are getting those back and reviewing the files, they’re able to keep it tracked and organised. And then your team can set automated email reminders. So you know, automatically follow up with the clients on the cadence that you select, to remind them to upload any outstanding files, so you’re not having to track them down manually and send those reminders. Additionally, they can manage those files. So they’re able to, we can automatically convert all the files uploaded into PDFs, you can create case binders just in one click and download it all into a one, one PDF binder. You can request changes if things are incorrect, leaving notes for the client, letting them know what they need to resubmit, and that link will be sent back to their phone or email. It’s a really making it kind of a more streamlined and organised process for your firm saving countless hours. Also, kind of the last component I want to touch on is just making it easy for your clients. So as we already discussed it all being in that one checklist, but also it being connected to them with his auto reminders, they can click in and see that whole checklist, really helping to delight their clients and make it an easier process for them. So they’re not having to call you know the paralegal every week to ask questions on on that request and on what files they need to submit. So that’s you know, a pretty kind of a yes for a detailed you know, overview. I think that that accomplishes that but happy to talk about it more if you have additional questions. 

Rob Hanna 19:55 

No, I like that. And I like detailed overviews. And I like the fact that you gave some really would have solid examples. And because my follow up question to that was going to be, you know, I argue a lot of people, and this is probably a cheeky question that nothing is new anymore. There’s there’s competition, even if you don’t think you have competition. So how do you believe pigeon ultimately differentiates yourselves from other document collection solutions that might already be on the market? 

Adam Sharf 20:23 

Yeah, that’s a really good question. And I think is our approach. I mean, yeah, there are solutions like a Dropbox where it’s not really document collection, it’s document storage, right, and you can share, you can send a link to upload files, but, you know, really, that’s just to put it into their folder structure. And it doesn’t kind of facilitate that whole workflow, the back and forth between the client for collecting those files, it’s just kind of a link to dump files in. There’s a dick addition, there’s Docusign. DocuSign is really just focused on forms and contracts. So if you need to collect files, like pay stubs, bank statements, you know, you can’t really do that through Docusign. So it’s not really meant for that. And then, you know, the alternative to those two are really, you know, similar types of systems where, where you’re just kind of sending generic uploaded lists or email. So I think, you know, as far as really being, you know, one place where you can streamline the whole document workflow where we’re, you know, solely committed on that piece, making it as easy as possible. You know, I’m not aware of kind of another platform that’s doing it in the same way that we are where you’re able to build those itemised checklists, send them directly to the client listing everything you need, the client can upload it directly into that checklist, and then all that workflow features like requesting changes, verifying files, automated reminders, due dates on those requests. So I guess it Yeah, the approach, you know, it’s, it’s not Yeah, it’s not like you’re saying not a novel concept that there’s a cloud based system where clients can upload files into, however, you have the approach, as far as you know, all the specific collection capabilities, such as the checklist on reminders, converting images, requesting changes, verifying files, that all is, I think, unique to pigeons approach.  

Rob Hanna 22:07 

Yeah. And again, I’m so passionate about people being efficient, particularly in this modern world that we live, like you can’t afford to ignore technologies that are going to help you be efficient, because you can pass on so many benefits to your teams, in terms of reducing stress, because of their workloads and pressures. But also, of course, delighting your client, because you’re providing a far smoother service. So really important stuff that we’re talking about, which is simple, but not easy. You know. So I think it’s really important that people get a grasp of, you know, getting educated about these types of services that are out there. Okay, I talked earlier saying that. entrepreneurship isn’t easy. And I stand by that, I don’t believe there’s a thing called an overnight success. And so, you know, we always encourage authentic conversations here on the show. So can you share some of the challenges you faced from moving from a law firm to co founding pigeon? And, you know, have there been any skills that you’ve learned from your time that Kenny and the lights that have helped helped you as part of your journey with pigeon thus far?  

Adam Sharf 23:09 

Yeah, definitely. I mean, founding a company is, is really tough as I’m sure you’re you’re, you know, intimately familiar with, it’s difficult to and, you know, there’s a lot of challenges. And I think one of the main things that I, you know, became aware of it, you know, in the beginning of starting pigeon, every deal, every kind of day of improving the product, felt like, you know, it would be, you know, either the end of the world or the start of, you know, the billion dollar business journey, and really kind of treated everything with that level of, of, I guess, seriousness or anxiety, really. And I think over time realising that, it’s really not like you’re saying, it’s not about the overnight success, it’s about developing a sustainable business that is going to, you know, do the things over time that really, you know, help our customers be better at what they’re doing. And, you know, that does take time, it takes time to understand industries to understand their deepest pain points, and how pigeon can help solve them. And it doesn’t happen overnight. And so, you know, at that point, kind of recognising that, as far as, you know, the timeline to success, it’s, it’s a lot kind of, slower than, than you might think, if you watch the social network are you know, if you hear the stories of, of, you know, a lot of tech companies in their, their journey, but you know, when you realise we’re talking about a, you know, 510 15 year timeline, as opposed to, you know, a one to three year timeline, allows you to sit back, think more big picture, think about, you know, how can I really solve this problem in the best way possible? And I think that also is something that, you know, you definitely learn, you know, practising in the law you know, like at Kirkland and Ellis No, nobody there is focused on, on, you know, short term being being the best lawyer for their client, like on a short term timeline, they’re not focused on the next day or week or month, they’re building lifelong relationships with their clients, and definitely have a more long term view. So I think that, you know, that can really be helpful as an approach to startups as well, even though you do want to be moving fast, of course, and you know, there’s a lot to speak of on that front as far as how to move fast, how to be effective and efficient. And making sure you’re doing things that don’t scale as an early stage startup. But having a long term view, definitely, I think could be helpful, too. 

Rob Hanna 25:38 

Yeah, and I love that you sort of talked about and you mentioned earlier, that the passion, you know, being transfixed on the problem, you know, if you’ve got this business, you’re so kind of like focused in on the problem you’re trying to solve, that is ultimately where you’re going to win because that is the painful that is the pain point that you are addressing. So the more you can get fascinated transfixed find so many creative ways to keep pushing that you’re going to be super, super successful in terms of driving your business forward. What are some of the strategies law firms can implement to enhance their client experience in this increasingly digital age?  

Adam Sharf 26:10 

That’s a great question. And there’s actually there’s a study done pretty recently by McKinsey and talked about how to enhance client experience generally not not speaking just about law firms, and kind of gave us a framework that you can use to think about increasing, you know, enhancing your client experience. And, you know, some of the main components of that study were kind of one segmentation. And, and I would say that there were many different components. But I think the two biggest are really segmentation. And then like touch points, leaving, kind of ensuring that you’re having enough touch points with your customer to keep them informed and engage. And then I’d say the final one is ending on a high note or leaving the experience on a high note. And they’re actually great examples kind of around all of this. But when we think about segmentation, it means really breaking down your process, from what can feel like sometimes, especially for law firm clients, one overwhelming blob of an experience, you know, I have this big case or, you know, this big, you know, transaction that is happening, and I’m coming to you for help. Now, like what the heck do I do as a as a client, and there’s so many different components to that, it’s a really break it down and making the client experience broken down into kind of smaller spurts or segments, and allowing the client to really take it in that front. And that’s like one of the things that we found pigeon be helpful for, which is like, where you have that checklists, you have the individual line items for each of those things the clients gonna have to do as far as uploading those files. And then there, the second thing is really touch points, ensuring that as they move through the process, you’re keeping them up to date in form of notifications. Because, you know, some of the worst client experiences can really just be leaving them in the dark, where, you know, they, let’s say, have the initial conversation, sending the things they need, and then kind of don’t hear from you. So ensuring that they’re being kind of notified as the, you know, things progress as the case progresses, or, as you know, you’re going to need additional sets of files from them, notifying them that you’ve received everything that you need, and that the case is making progress. And then the last piece is ending off on high point. And that’s where, actually, the study gives a good example, which is the hotel industry how, you know, some of the kind of a main friction and, and low points that hotel goers would list as you know, the least who were part of their experience, was being at a hotel and having a check out and then having to go stand in line to check out, you know, hand in the Keys speak to the person at the front desk, when they just want to leave, and they really see no reason why they need to do that. So that’s where like, at some point over the last decade, a lot most hotels have kind of moved away from that process where now you can just kind of walk out of a hotel, leave your key and they take care of the the information they need to know kind of checking in or at a different part of the experience to make sure you’re 100 removing some of the main friction and be ending off on a high note. So yeah, we definitely kind of try and incorporate each of those pieces of the process, having a good customer experience into Pidgin and helping our clients you know, take those different kind of factors and components on to ensure that their clients are as happy as they can be, 

Rob Hanna 29:33 

You know, and little touches are the big touches, right? Imagine, you know, like you gave that example of the hotels, you can be quite frustrated, you’ve been packing your bags and you’ve got to queue up and then it’s a delay and then there’s an issue at payment or whatever it is just having a seamless flow, you know, workflow, which you’ve described just makes everything so much better. Okay, Pidgin utilises the same industry leading end to end encryption and security measures that banks and government agencies to use to keep sensitive documents safe, sounds pretty tight to me. So what security breaches should we be aware of as technology and particularly AI develop?  

Adam Sharf 30:11 

Yeah, that’s a really good question. You know, it’s got to be top of mind as a law firm, because you’re dealing with such sensitive client information. And yeah, unfortunately, using email as the way to submit the sensitive files, just is not in keeping with kind of good practice for security standards these days. So really need to make sure that you’re using a platform, you want that platform to be, you know, we have sock to compliance here in America that a lot of companies use as kind of the standard bearer for having the right security credentialing in place, that as a, as a firm can kind of give you the assurance that you need that this company that you’re using to, you know, for secure file transfer is being audited on a regular basis by security experts to ensure that they are using best practices. So that’s important. But yeah, really, that’s the main thing is kind of, you got to at this point, you gotta be moving away from sending the files over email, because it puts your clients at risk, it puts your reputation at risk. And and there are just easier and better ways to do things here and in 2024. 

Rob Hanna 31:19 

Yeah, no, I’ve said it before. I said it years ago, that paper and officers will be dead within the last decade. And I think that’s definitely going to happen. I’ve said also email is going to be dead. Very, very soon, in my opinion to definitely within the next decade. That’s 100%. Sure, for all the reasons you’ve mentioned. And there’s just so many other ways to communicate with clients now in a more efficient manner. Okay, so why has the legal profession been slow to adopt technology generally? And where do you see the legal industry in the next five to 10 years with legal tech development? 

Adam Sharf 31:53 

That’s a really good question. Yeah, these questions are always hard to answer, right? Because there’s so many components, and there’s so many contributing factors, it’s hard to like, isolate, you know, the few that are really the highest, as far as their their relationship to the result, which has been Yeah, obviously, slow technological adoption, I’ll just kind of list a few that come to mind first, as I’m thinking about it, you know, one, you do hear, you know, criticisms of kind of the the billable hour, and that it incentivizes inefficiency, as opposed to efficiency. And see, I don’t really think that that’s true. You know, I don’t think that that’s, that’s like a fair criticism, because just because we work with law firms, and I know that people practising and like, I don’t think anybody wants to work longer on cases than then they have to, I think they want to do things as efficiently as possible, because it helps them. But maybe when you when you go to kind of bigger law firms where there’s like, you know, if you work in a huge law firm, and you’re an associate, as opposed to like the owner, or like a partner at like a smaller law firm, you know, it can become a little bit more detached as far as your relationship to business outcomes. And so like, maybe in those cases, it is true that having the billable hour standard for like, let’s say, one of, you know, the however many 1000s of first year, or associates that Kirkland analysts, like maybe that could incentivize that person to be less efficient. And, and, and so yeah, not want to kind of use the best practices as far as efficiencies. A second thing that comes to mind is just the cautiousness that lawyers have, generally as far as temperament, and then also, you know, cautiousness, as far as defensive information that that we’re dealing with, and so that cautiousness can oftentimes keep people that kind of frame, mindset and framework can, you know, while it’s good, because, you know, it allows them to, to, you know, be cautious in positive ways as well, it can sometimes keep them from kind of taking that leap, or the or the big step, to get to the point at which things will become more efficient. And I would say, that is definitely a framework and a mentality that I try to talk to my clients about is, you know, being still being cautious, but being, you know, cautiously progressive, cautiously, pushing forward, cautiously go, making sure that you’re not that the cautiousness isn’t causing you to become stagnant as a firm and is you’re still able to take those steps forward, where it will provide additional efficiency, which will make your process more secure. So yeah, that’s, you know, those are kind of, let’s say, a couple of the reasons, but there are definitely you know, many more that that I think that could help to explain it. But But yeah, that’s what comes to mind. 

Rob Hanna 34:44 

You know, and again, great, great observations and this has been a real masterclass, I’ve really enjoyed learning more about your your journey with pigeon and, you know, your reflections on your your legal journey and you know what, you’ve got time for that for the future. They see it’s very exciting time. So you know, Before we close, what advice would you give for those who have pursued a career in law, and now considering entrepreneurship or another adventure, 

Adam Sharf 35:08 

I think the first piece of advice is just like know what you’re getting into spend time talking to people who have done it, you can definitely reach out to me or to have people in your own networks where people have made that leap. Because I think a lot of people who I speak to do a kind of without the knowledge of, of, as we spoke about on this call, like how difficult and and how long the journey can really be to build a good company that’s going to make your clients really happy. Like we’ve been working on this for for, you know, just about four years now, at this point, and really just feel like over the last year, we’re getting to a place where, where you can feel the benefits that our clients are receiving, and, you know, they’re coming back and sharing it with their, their friends and with their, you know, people who they know in the industry as well. And that’s really where it starts to become really rewarding is when you have really satisfied and happy and excited clients. So just know that it can be a journey to get there, you know, you have to build MVP, you got to do a lot of research, a lot of tasks that aren’t glamorous or glorious. And so that’s kind of one piece of it, I would say the second piece of it is, as I kind of spoke about before, but I’m going to reiterate, just because it’s so important is, you know, it’s like my wife always taught me a great lesson in shopping that if you’re, if you’re if you’re not happy with the the piece of article of clothing in the store, you’re not going to be happy with it when you go home. And it’s like, it’s similar with, you know, starting businesses and leaving kind of stable jobs, if you’re not absolutely thrilled about it, when you’re, you know, thinking through the idea when you’re breaking away, if you don’t have like the deep passion that like you know, as somebody who obviously, who you know yourself better than anybody else. And you know that that’s the kind of passion that’s going to last, you know, for five years, 10 years, 15 years, as you’re building and growing a company, it’s gonna be very hard to be successful, and to really go forward for you know, with a long time horizon, and then to build the kind of company that’s going to be successful and that you’re going to love working on. So that’s the second piece of advice. So we spoke that already, but making sure that you know, what you’re doing is the thing that you want to really commit at least a huge part of your life to building and really being your life’s work and project. 

Rob Hanna 37:24 

Yeah, and it just leads to follow your passions, right, as you know, as make things as good as you can, you know, I always say, Don is better than perfect, that perfect never gets done, but have attention to detail. And like you say you want to be proud of whatever it is that you produce. And you want to have high expectations of yourself. So ultimately, if you keep those high standards of yourself, then ultimately you’re gonna keep moving forward and operating at those standards and, and get to that stage of delighting your clients and growing and going on a journey. But you have to have patience, you have to be sort of grateful for where you’ve got to in the process, reward yourself along the way and keep going and have a great network of mentors around you as well. And this has been great. Adam really enjoyed learning about your career journey pigeon. I’m sure our listeners are going to want to know more about you, pigeon, the updates you’ve got coming up. So where can they find out more? What are some of the best social media handles to get in touch with you or pitch in or any website links will also share them with this episode for you too.  

Adam Sharf 38:19 

Yeah, definitely. So yeah, pigeon has, you know all the social medias, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, etc. I think LinkedIn is probably the best way to keep up if you are on there. Also, you can find me on LinkedIn. Adam, sharps, just spelled sh AR F is my last name. You can always reach out to be over email as well. It’s just my first name and then a period and then my last name at pigeon. documents.com. And yeah, happy to talk through anyone who’s thinking about breaking away from kind of the legal path and starting a company or anyone who’s obviously interested in learning more about pigeon and would love to connect, or any of those different ways. 

Rob Hanna 38:56 

Brilliant. Well, thank you so so much once again, Adam, it’s been a real pleasure having you on the legally speaking podcast. So on behalf of all of us, here on the show, wishing you lots of continued success with your entrepreneurial pursuits and of course pigeon, but from now, over and out.