Can artificial intelligence revolutionise justice while ensuring ethical integrity?

This week, I’m joined Professor Katie Atkinson, a trailblazer in AI and law with over 20 years of research and a member of the European Commission’s AI advisory board. Katie dives into AI in law, its potential for sustainability and how mentorship in legal tech is shaping her profession.

If you’re ready to explore the future of AI-driven legal systems, this episode is one you don’t want to miss, tune in now to hear what’s next for AI and the law.

So why should you be listening in? 

You can hear Rob and Katie discussing:

– AI Moving from Theoretical Discussion Into Tangible Implementation

– Explainable AI Systems and How they are Incorporated

– The Support and Advice Given By Lawtech and its 60+ Professional Mentors

– Prepping Students for an AI-Integrated Legal Landscaape

– The Use of “Horizon Scanning” to Anticipate Future AI Challenges

Connect with Katie here – https://uk.linkedin.com/in/katie-atkinson-205a5ba8

Transcript

Katie Atkinson  0:00  

The explosion that we’ve seen in growth in the law tech market is only going to continue. We’ve now got to the stage where there are tangible impacts that can be seen. I’ve worked with some law firms who have AI tools now in use every single day. People are seeing that being evidenced, seeing the benefits, and people are willing to talk about their journeys and what the difficulties were and what the pitfalls were. So there’s more of a learning base as well. People are no longer going to be frightened to test things out, because if you don’t, then you are going to be left behind on

Robert Hanna  0:27  

today’s legally speaking Podcast. I’m delighted to be joined by Professor Katie Atkinson. Katie is the Associate Pro Vice Chancellor and director of the interdisciplinary Centre for sustainability research at the University of Liverpool, a professor in computer science. She has been conducting foundational and interdisciplinary research on artificial intelligence for over 20 years, publishing over 150 articles. Katie was appointed to the Artificial Intelligence Advisory Board for the European Commission for efficiency, and is one of five members appointed across Europe since 2020 Katie has served as a member of the law tech UK panel, a government backed initiative to help transform the UK sector through technology. So very big. Warm Welcome to the show, Katie.

Katie Atkinson  1:12  

Good morning. Thank you very much for having me here to join you today. Oh, it’s an absolute pleasure

Robert Hanna  1:16  

to have you on the legally speaking podcast. And before we dive into all the amazing work that you’re getting up to in and around the legal community. We do have an icebreaker question here on the legal speaking podcast, which is on the scale of one to 1010. Being very real. What would you rate the hit TV series suits in terms of its reality of the law on the scale of one to 10? If you’ve seen it,

Katie Atkinson  1:38  

I don’t watch it, so I can’t give a very informed decision on that, but I’d probably go in middle of the road and say a five,

Robert Hanna  1:44  

yep, and that’s what I’ve given it before. And with that, we can move very swiftly on to talk all about you. So to begin with, Katie, would you mind telling our listeners a bit about your background and career journey?

Katie Atkinson  1:54  

Yes, I’m a professor of Computer Science at the University of Liverpool, and I conduct academic research on foundations of AI, but specifically AI for law. So I’ve been doing this for about 20 years now, since I finished my PhD, and I’ve been working very much on the academic side, but in the last 10 years or so, I’ve started working a lot more with industry and with professional bodies, and as the legal tech field has flourished over the last decade, I’ve been doing a lot more of what you would call the translational work, taking the outputs from the academic community and translating them into real world solutions with law firms.

Robert Hanna  2:31  

Yeah, and that’s why we were so keen to have you on today, because it’s so relevant for the now. But I guess I want to take your mind back to sort of earlier on. Where did your interest in computer science start originally, and what made you decide to pursue a career focusing on that area?

Katie Atkinson  2:45  

So I’ve got an undergraduate degree in computer science, and when I finished that, I wasn’t sure whether I wanted to move into industry or really what my dream job would be at the end of it, but then it was suggested to me to do a PhD in computer science, I was really interested in the modules that I’d taken at university on the topic of artificial intelligence, so I decided to do a deep dive into that. And in my PhD, I was studying core aspects of AI and one of the specific application areas I looked at in my PhD was law. I published a research paper on that, went along to a conference, and then I just got more interested in the legal application side and started focusing my energies on that. And then that was the path that I followed in the rest of my research career after my PhD. Yeah,

Robert Hanna  3:34  

and absolutely the right path to follow, given the world that we’re in now, and super interesting. So I guess, as the Associate Pro Vice Chancellor and director of the interdisciplinary Centre for sustainability research at the University of Liverpool, what does your role actually involve? Tell people a little bit more about what you get up to. So

Katie Atkinson  3:51  

my professor of computer science role is only 50% of my role. My other role is this role that you mentioned as director of our new interdisciplinary Centre for sustainability research, and that’s recognising the importance of doing interdisciplinary research, not just in law out I do interdisciplinary research across other boundaries as well, and we want to get more people involved in this. Traditionally in universities, people sit within their own disciplines. But now there’s definitely a recognition that different skill sets are needed, different expert knowledge is needed to be able to tackle some of the big, real world problems that we see, and they’re very much articulated in the UN Sustainable Development Goals. So the focus of the centre that I’m now director of is getting together interdisciplinary teams to be able to tackle some projects that make tangible progress with you in sustainable development goals.

Robert Hanna  4:45  

Yeah and absolutely, and we fully support that here on the legally speaking podcast. And something else that we try to do is to try and simplify things and reduce the overwhelm, particularly with complex things or advanced things that are going on in the world and you know you’re conducting, I understand foundational. As you mentioned, interdisciplinary research on artificial intelligence and doing so for over 20 years. Would you mind explaining to our listeners the difference between foundational and perhaps interdisciplinary research on AI? Specifically, sure,

Katie Atkinson  5:12  

so foundational research is very much on what do we need to do to advance the field of AI, not necessarily with a specific application in mind. So you might say, a lot of the work on natural language processing that has you can see nowadays in the chat pots that we have in the generative AI models, that’s what you would call foundational research. How do we develop new techniques, new methods, new algorithms that will drive forward the capabilities of AI. Now that’s rather different to starting from an interdisciplinary perspective with law. If you want to start by building an AI tool specifically for law, you have to understand the challenges that are specific to law, and that’s why collaboration is really important. We talk a lot about co creation. If you want to build an interdisciplinary application, you have to have the people who are the domain experts in the room at the start, being able to give their expert knowledge, and then you can combine to tackle that together. Yeah,

Robert Hanna  6:14  

and I always say collaboration is domination, and you reference that there, and I think it’s so important. I mean, but the areas of research you’re doing are fascinating. So obviously that includes, again, I understand sort of computational models of argument, AI and law. So you know, with those models of argument, how do they connect with how do they connect AI and law? Tell us a bit more, a bit deeper.

Katie Atkinson  6:36  

So you’re right. I do research on what’s called computational models of argument. That’s the academic label, if you like that we put on this field. How I explain it to a more generalist audience is really what we call Explainable AI now. So it’s building AI tools, where, if the AI software gives you an output or a recommendation, it can explain the reasoning that was undertaken in order to reach that conclusion or that recommendation. Now I work on argumentation, which is how, looking at how people engage in debates, how they exchange arguments, how they try to persuade one another about what to believe or what the best course of action is. And obviously a lot of that happens in the legal field. There’s a lot of situations where there are debates and there are arguments going on. So I am interested in how we can develop computational models of those so that we can build AI programmes that can engage in the automated exchange of arguments, and then when a conclusion is reached by the AI system, it can explain why it accepted one line of reasoning and not some other line of reasoning. Fascinating

Robert Hanna  7:41  

stuff. I’m really kind of enjoying this, because this is definitely where the puck is going. And, you know, we’ve got a whole range of listeners from those entering the law obviously, those have been in the profession for a long time. And you know, I’m sure this will be raising a few eyebrows in a good way, and from a sort of educational and as I say, where that puck is going, which is where we always want to have the conversations on the show. I want to talk about law tech UK now, because since 2020 you’ve served as a member of the law tech UK panel the government backed initiative. So for those who are unfamiliar, could you explain more about law tech UK’s mission? So law

Katie Atkinson  8:13  

tech UK was set up to really turbo charge the law tech ecosystem in the UK. It’s backed by the UK Ministry of Justice, and it’s meant to provide some strategic oversight to the UK, to help the startup community, to help founders who are looking to find their way through unfamiliar territory, to support and to scale up as well, to provide education programmes and to bring together the collaboration piece and mentoring as well, so people who’ve done this before, so that they can support others on that startup journey. And we can benefit the law tech UK system in the whole of the UK.

Robert Hanna  8:51  

I can absolutely, you know, vouch for law tech K and, you know, I sit on the board of a couple of legal techs, one being case guru, and, you know, had some really good experiences with all the great work that’s being done there. So from again, I think it’s April 2023, law tech UK has been managed by code base and legal Geek on behalf of the Ministry of Justice, as you sort of briefly referenced. So as a member of the panel, then, can you share some of the initiatives you’re currently working on or excited to be working on?

Katie Atkinson  9:15  

So there’s a really big education programme, and it’s aimed at startups who are on different stages of the journey. We’ve got the startup education, the scale up that I mentioned. So mentorship is really important. I think we’re now at tally of 89 startups who’ve been supported. We have a mentor pool that’s got over 60 people in it, and they come from a range of different backgrounds, founders of unicorn firms, successful founders who either grown their business or exited the market, people working in law firms, people in the investment landscape. So we want to give mentorship to people. We want to give education programmes, and ultimately, what we want to help with adoption as well. Yeah,

Robert Hanna  9:58  

and that’s key, isn’t it? I think three. That education, naturally, you’re going to see higher levels of adoption in the right facet as well. And that’s why we’re really keen to share, you know, really helpful information that people are in, you know, esteemed roles like yourself doing such good work. So we had the previous Chair of law tech UK, Christina blacklaws, come on to the show previously, and highly encourage guests listeners to go back and listen to her episode. And she said, law tech UK is vital and a unique platform for discussion, innovation, thought leadership and growth. So from your perspective, what shifts have you seen in the legal sector by adopting technology, and how is AI being utilised to further the law? So

Katie Atkinson  10:34  

when I first started working in AI and law, there was very little interest from industry in taking up the academic solutions that were being produced, that were being discussed at conferences, and that has absolutely shifted over the last decade, and that’s because the technology has matured. We know that AI is no longer something that’s pie in the sky. It’s here. We can see it. We can use it so that there’s definitely been a shift in attitude, and I think it’s been important for law tech UK to come together to convene some thinking on that, so that there isn’t just disparate activity going on in different parts of the UK. You see that Lotte UK has what we call an ecosystem tracker that was released last year that gives a snapshot of the current state of the market. So if you’ve got an idea as a startup, you can see if there’s a gap that you could jump into, or you can see if somebody else has been developing some sim solutions and what your distinctive USP is. So I think it’s been played a really important convening role and also being a voice as well, to you know, make sure that we’re doing strategic thinking about this and not just working individually. Yeah,

Robert Hanna  11:45  

absolutely. And comes back to that collaboration point earlier. And, you know, I just want to drive the the AI adoption appetite shift, because, you know, I’ve been around the world with the the podcast, and, you know, I’ve referenced this many times to people on the show, you know, we’re partnering with with clear, obviously, the world’s largest cloud based legal technology company. And I remember speaking to remember speaking to Jack Newton, the CEO of the company, and said Robert took 15 years to get cloud adoption from law firms, and some of them really still struggled to move away from bricks and mortar. And he said, the velocity of speed we’re going to see with AI just because there is no choice but to adapt and thrive, otherwise you will probably likely really struggle is going to be really exciting in the world of legal and really exciting the world of legal technology. And that’s why we’re keen to keep having these conversations. Educate people from all different angles, so they have a really good understanding of how to ultimately learn and then take action. So, you know, from a sustainability perspective. So obviously this is a real kind of area of expertise for you. How do you see AI and technology contributing to the sustainability of the legal sector.

Katie Atkinson  12:42  

So I think you’re right. I think people need to get on board with the changes that are happening. And lots of people are, you know, there’s so many events that you see now, and I think we’re past the stage of just the headlines, of somebody saying, Oh, we’re looking at AI, we’re trying these new AI tools. We’ve now got to the stage where there are tangible impacts that can be seen and can be evidenced. I’ve worked with some law firms who have AI tools now in use every single day in their business. People are seeing that being evidenced and seen the benefits. And people are willing to talk about their journeys and what the difficulties were and what the pitfalls were. So there’s more of a learning base as well. So I think it’s very much a case of the sector getting on board. And it’s not just the commercial sector as well. So the courts are talking about modernization. You’ll hear Jeffrey Voss on the Lotte UK panel really talking about the need for judges to understand, AI, to start looking at the tools. And this is happening worldwide as well. So I think it’s a real shift in the sector. Today’s

Robert Hanna  13:42  

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Katie Atkinson  15:16  

a really important point. I’m obviously enthusiastic about the opportunities with the rollout of AI, but I definitely want it to be done in a measured way, so that there’s checks and balances and that there’s evaluation of early prototypes to see that they work and that they’re open to scrutiny as well, because it’s no good having these AI tools if there isn’t trust in them by the people who are going to be the users. So there’s a lot of talk about efficiencies that can be made with AI tools that a lot of the firms that are out there looking at document automation trying to get rid of some of the administrative backlogs, that there’s different tasks within legal work that can be automated. Obviously, some of the more routine ones are the low hanging fruit, some of the more difficult ones, like things like decision support, are going to be much more challenging, but that’s why it’s really important to have these Explainable AI methods that I was talking about earlier. We can’t have these black bot tools that just spit out an answer and it’s not clear how they came to that answer the data sets that they were trained on. So it’s really important for gaining trust that we have that openness and that explainability. And there’s an opportunity, if we get this right, for access to justice to be delivered to the citizens as well. We know all around the world, there are huge backlogs that have built up in courts. It’s taken years for people to get their cases heard. That’s not providing the Access to Justice that we want. So there should be opportunities there with the rollout of AI, yeah,

Robert Hanna  16:48  

and you make a really good point, particularly around what I always say is, if you confuse people, you’ll lose people. And I think you’re looking for fusion. And like you said, there, you want to understand, so then hopefully you kept people along the way the journey. And I think, yeah, we’re all striving to help improve access to justice, and it’s one of the missions we set out here, in terms of the leaders being podcast with the content and thought leaders like yourselves that we have on to all work and collaborate together, to work hard to solve that because I think it’s a huge, huge area that still needs a lot of attention. Okay, let’s talk about mentoring again, something else we talk a lot about on the show, something I’m a huge advocate for why is it important for law firms to be mentored in legal tech specifically, and why is it inherent for law firms to seek mentorship? And why is now the right time? So it’s

Katie Atkinson  17:32  

important because, as we’ve talked about, the world of law is changing because of the new technology, so that the people who’ve been the early adopters, the people who’ve tried things out, we need to learn lessons from them. Say, Okay, what didn’t work. We can avoid pitfalls once people have learned what they are making. This switch to this new technology can be frightening for people as well. So it’s really important to build confidence too. So all these new AI tools like you say, if people aren’t used to working in this way, it can be very scary if you’re not sure how they work. So mentorship at different levels within organisations is really important for the upskilling piece of current employees, for people who are trying to be disruptors as well, they can learn from others who have been in that field. And why now is because of the explosion that we’ve seen and the growth in the low tech market, and it’s only going to continue with the developments that we’re expecting to see

Robert Hanna  18:24  

on AI, yeah, and I’m here for exponential growth. And we’ve had some fascinating CEOs, you know, had CEO spellbook. They’ve had a great journey, obviously, as a reference, Jack Newton, you know, and he he mentioned, you know, last year, when they did the 900 million raise, the largest of any raise within the he said, this isn’t just good for Clio, this is great for legal technology. You know that the P funds, the big players out there, are really paying attention to legal technology as a viable place to invest and and really disrupt. And again, that’s super exciting. If you’re you’re in this area of law. You know our tagline for the show is inspiring legal minds, transforming legal futures, and I think technology is going to be a huge part of that. So let’s talk about some of your advisory work. Because you’ve been appointed, or were appointed the artificial advisory board for the European Commission for efficiency of justice. You’re one of five members appointed across Europe to provide expert advice on AI related issues. In what areas have you been providing advice. Tell us a bit more.

Katie Atkinson  19:23  

Yes. So obviously, I’ve been talking about what’s going on in the academic world. So sometimes what’s going on in the academic world doesn’t make it through to the products for a number of years. So we can do a little bit of horizon scanning, if you like, advising where the fields likely to be going, what the particular challenges are. There’s known challenges with the current generation of generative AI, everybody’s talking about the hallucination problems. Obviously the big companies are going to be working on trying to resolve those. So we’re trying to do some horizon scanning on what might be coming. It’s looking at advising the judiciary on that upskilling piece. Piece as well. So everybody doesn’t need to go and take coding lessons, but you do need to become familiar with the tools that we’re now starting to see rolled out. You’ve got your co pilots, if you’re on the Microsoft ecosystem, so just getting on board with those, and it doesn’t have to be some big AI project that’s coming in to take over all the human work. It’s very much in that supportive role. I know you’ve talked about this on previous episodes of this podcast, and getting that message out as well, that using AI in a supporting role. Yeah,

Robert Hanna  20:33  

absolutely. And, you know, I forget who said the quote, but AI should be seen as a force work, a workforce multiplier, you know. And I love that you think about that, how it can really help enhance things. But there are always with change, with everything going on, you know, there’s a lot of considerations, particularly because our audience is in the legal world, extra considerations. So you know, what are some of the most pressing AI related challenges the European judicial system is facing, and how do you ensure the ethical considerations are at the forefront when advising AI and indeed the judiciary. So

Katie Atkinson  21:06  

I think that trustworthiness issue so making sure that any tools that are being child have done so in a way where their impact has been thought about, where there’s documented evidence of what worked, what didn’t work. There’s iteration, if anything didn’t work as well. So it’s making sure that there’s a measured approach to roller embracing these technologies, making sure you understand what they do, what you can do, and what you can’t do. So that policy and governance framework is key as well. So that there’s new laws coming in. There’s the AI act that’s in place in Europe to make sure that everybody’s aware of their responsibilities when they’re rolling out AI systems looking at high risk ones differently to low risk ones. So it’s making sure that there’s understanding of what’s possible, what’s not possible, and how to operate within the policy and governance framework. Yeah,

Robert Hanna  22:05 

So well said, and thank you for sharing that, and indeed, all the work you’re doing, I would say, to go above and beyond. And again, that’s why we’re really keen to have this conversation today. So let’s look at opportunities. You know, we’re always full of the glass half full approach over here. So how can those in the legal profession champion more opportunities for females who are interested in technology, AI and automation?

Katie Atkinson  22:26  

Back to that mentorship question that we talked about. So you know, if you’ve been successful, or perhaps if you haven’t been, if you’ve had some stumbling blocks along the way, it can be difficult for people to talk about, you know, the failures, things that didn’t go right, but that’s so important to pass that knowledge on to the next generation. So getting involved in mentorship programmes, asking your colleagues to get involved in mentorship programmes as well, putting on opportunities for people to dip their toe in the water. If somebody’s got an interest in this, but might not be feeling confident, provide an opportunity to get them involved, put on some some training look up some training courses that they can go to and be open and inclusive with those opportunities. Yeah, absolutely.

Robert Hanna  23:10  

That’s a very important point. And you know, I always say, once you reach teach and to individuals, you should always have your 360 board of mentors as well, ideally, people above you, people at the same level, and people actually believe you and I, I get so much of my wisdom, particularly from the tech and some of the social media and marketing strategies from the next generation, because that’s where the attention is, you know, in terms of some of these channels and understanding algorithms and things like that. So, yeah, I’m a big advocate for having your own 360 board of mentors around you. Okay, the future. I don’t know what the future. You know means these days are things moving so fast? I mean, tomorrow is the future. Isn’t in terms of the speed of AI and its exponential developments, but sort of future of AI. How do you envisage AI evolving in the legal space in the next few years? I think 10 years. It’s too impossible to predict. But what developments in AI for the legal sector can we look forward to?

Katie Atkinson  24:01  

I think adoption is between now. So previously, it was about people testing the waters and looking at collaboration, looking at some some piloting. I think we’re beyond that now. So there’s the tools that I mentioned that are becoming available just for the operational day to day assistance, and then there’s the more tailored ones that help with specific legal tasks. So whether that’s something that you do with with one of the large companies, whether it’s something that you do in a specific collaboration with one of the startups, or whether it’s something you do with some academics, I think adoption is going to be key. I think people are no longer going to be frightened to test things out, because if you don’t, then you are going to be left behind, because so many places are doing it. We have innovation departments, we have machine learning engineers, we have data scientists embedded in law firms now, small and large, it used to be just the large ones with the deep pockets, but it’s not anymore. It’s the small ones as well. So I think a. Option and roll out is going to be key. I think you

Robert Hanna  25:02  

make a good point there as well about accessibility of services. Like you said, historically, the larger firms with these deep pockets could be hugely, sort of powerful. Now, I feel like with some of these tools and some of these subscription based, you know, tools that are available, it can help level the playing field to some extent, which is which is exciting. Okay, let’s look at sort of some final thoughts and pieces of advice for those that are currently in the legal profession, perhaps they’re practising the law. What advice would you give them to perhaps get more educated around the world of technology and legal technology? Because I feel like there is a gap for those who are head down billable hour working on the job, and sometimes you have to lift your head up to understand where, what, what’s going to mean for your future career, and where’s it’s going. So firstly, what would be your piece of advice for those currently practising the law that perhaps haven’t been paying as much attention to law and technology, and what would you say to them, to to help them?

Katie Atkinson  25:53  

So carving out time for your own professional development is really important. No matter what industry you work in, technology is going to change the legal industry so much. So I think just, you know, carving out some time to, you know, do some entry level courses. There’s so much out there that’s available now, just to start you on that journey, and then you can delve deeper into the aspects that you’re more interested about, find out what’s going on in your own company. You know, as I said, the adoption is really increasing. So it’s likely that companies are looking at this more and more so talking to other teams carving out time for professional development. And, you know, just keep keeping abreast of what’s going on in the field through podcasts like this here. What’s what’s going on?

Robert Hanna  26:39  

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, you know, you hopefully people listening to this are passionate about their career and want to future proof their career. And so, you know, making the time. You know, time is always available if it’s important enough to you, so if your career is important to you, then you will make the time, even if that’s 15 minutes a day, 10 minutes a day, it’s better than nothing. Okay? And then let’s look at the next generation coming through before we we wrap up. What advice would you give to students particularly interested in pursuing a career in pursuing a career in technology and the law? Because it’ll be very different to many moons ago. What’s the sort of advice for now? So

Katie Atkinson  27:09  

I think universities are recognising that this is changing, and they can’t just keep their traditional courses on law. At the University of Liverpool, we’ve got a module on the future of legal services, and how AI is going to be changing that. So I make sure that you’re looking at those courses, taking an interest in what’s going on in that field. Like I said, again, doesn’t have to be, you know, taking the coding classes or anything. Be aware of what tools, what technologies are out there. Look at the different roles that are being organised as well. So people who can speak across different teams, there’s going to be jobs for them in the future. I’ve done collaborations with law firms where there’s academics, working with the IT teams, and working with the lawyers in that interdisciplinary, collaborative setting again, so I think making sure that you’ve got the professional skills to speak across those boundaries, as well as having your finger on the pulse of what the developments are is going to be really important.

Robert Hanna  28:05  

Yeah, and this has been a hugely fascinating discussion, Time just flies when, you know, I feel like I always come to every episode as a student, and I enjoy that as a podcast host, and hopefully come away a little bit wiser. And I’m definitely coming away a lot wiser today. And I’m sure our listeners are too, and if they want to follow you, or indeed learn more about your career, or indeed, law tech UK, where can they go to find out more? Feel free to shout out any website links or any social media handles. We’ll also ensure we share them with this very special episode for you too.

Katie Atkinson  28:34  

Yeah, law tech UK website. Just type it into Google. That will be the first place that you hit. You can see what’s going on in the whole ecosystem. You can see the education programmes that are there. So that’s with my lord tech UK hat on. You can find me on LinkedIn and all the work that I do there as well. For a more personal view on what I’m working on.

Robert Hanna  28:51  

Well, it just leads me to say, thank you so much. Once again, Katie, it’s been an absolute pleasure having you on the show. So from all of us on the legally speaking podcast sponsored by Cleo, wishing you lots of continued success with your career and indeed, future legal related pursuits, but for now, over and out. Thank

Katie Atkinson  29:06  

you very much. It’s been a pleasure to speak to you.

Robert Hanna  29:09  

Thank you for listening to this week’s episode. If you like the content here, why not check out our world leading content and Collaboration Hub, the legally speaking club over on Discord. Go to our website, www.legallyspeakingpodcast.com. For the link to join our community there, over and out.