On today’s Legally Speaking Podcast, I’m delighted to be joined by Niki Avraam. Niki isanemployment lawyer andlaw firm founder. She is also the Head of WORKWELL Europe, leading the transformation of workplace culture across the UK and Europe. With 2 decades’expertise in law, leadership and culture change, Niki is passionate about preparing peoplefor the future of work. Niki’s mission goes beyond the legal landscape–she believes individuals should have profound satisfaction in their work.

So why should you be listening in? 

You can hear Rob and Niki discussing:

– The Importance of Embracing Discomfort in the Workplace

– Building Invigorated and Engaged Workforces

– The Role of Authenticity in Leadership

– Operationalising Ownership Culture in Organisations

– Unlocking Potential Through Adaptability and Learning

Connect with Niki Avraam here – https://uk.linkedin.com/in/nikiavraam

Transcript

Robert Hanna (00:01)

So a very big warm welcome to the show, Nicky.

Niki Avraam (00:04)

Hello Rob, lovely to see you and great to be here.

Robert Hanna (00:08)

it’s an absolute pleasure to have you on the show, particularly after us collaborating live in person recently. But before we get into all the great stuff that you’ve been getting up to, got a couple of quick fire icebreaker questions for you. So what is your favorite beverage and what is your preferred choice of footwear during work day?

Niki Avraam (00:26)

Favorite beverage is, ⁓ I’m gonna go posh. I love champagne.

Robert Hanna (00:31)

Okay, good.

Any preference of champagne?

Niki Avraam (00:35)

Bollinger’s nice. Footwear. Oh my God, that is a serious question. I take my footwear very seriously. If I’m going comfort, I’ll go with an Adidas trainer. If I’m going kind of posh, I will go with a, I love heels. Anything. I’ve got a pair of Jimmy Cheese upstairs. Yeah. Anything from that to a lovely heeled boot with a bit of sparkle.

Robert Hanna (00:36)

Okay, yep, yep, we can go with that and footwear.

Okay.

Okay.

Okay, very, very interesting. Good range there. Absolutely. And thanks for sharing. And with that, we should probably move swiftly on before we don’t get too much into a rabbit hole to talk all about you and your career. So would you mind telling our listeners a bit about your background and career journey to start with?

Niki Avraam (01:06)

Big question. ⁓

Where do I start? So I am the daughter of immigrants who came over to England in the 1960s from tiny island, Cyprus. And I had a very entrepreneurial upbringing. We had lots of different businesses, one after the other, fish and chip shop, which we lived above, dry cleaners, hairdressing. And we were as kids, I’ve got two older sisters, we were privy to everything.

like staff problems, business rates, the highs and the lows, all the volatility that comes from running a business around the table. And so from back then, I really understood that it’s not enough to have just innovation and entrepreneurial mindset. You have to have the stomach and the resilience to withstand the volatility that comes with running a business. So choose your hard is something that I learned from very early on.

And I was fortunate, it was a great classroom. And when I entered the legal profession, I went in with that entrepreneurial mindset, was unusual. It was like a superpower. I wanted to build as well as lawyer. And one thing I noticed when I entered the first firm, even as a trainee, I noticed that employment law wasn’t a distinct standalone department. It was like annexed to commercial law.

Robert Hanna (02:24)

Mm.

Niki Avraam (02:41)

And I could see that it was building momentum. was loads of legislation coming in from Europe. It was really exciting. Discrimination, flexible working. There were so many things and clients needed it. They needed help with their workforce. They were being slapped with discrimination claims, with unfair dismissal claims and not knowing what to do. And so I became really brave because I developed this purpose. I wanted to build that department to help the firm prosper. But also I saw it as real

vehicle for societal impact and I wanted to have that impact. So I slid a business table across to the senior partner, a business plan across to the senior partner and I rejected the more traditional roles in commercial law, housing litigation that were offered to me. I was doing, I was quite fearless. I was inviting senior partners to talk about how I could help from an employment perspective with their clients.

And I collaborated with the firm. I was very involved in my own job design and I was so passionate and invested in what I was doing. And I went on to do that in other firms. I became a partner quite early on in my career. Building employment, I fought some fantastic cases for individuals as well. Discrimination cases, whistle-blowing cases against the big banks, newspapers. And

When it came to build my own firm, which I did with my business partner 11 years ago, Howard Avram, it felt like not that new because I’d already cut my teeth. I wanted a platform where we did law differently. And one of the things that we did very early on was to decide that there was to be no possessiveness over clients. That didn’t serve clients properly or effectively. We wanted to put the client at the center. we,

did a structure so that it didn’t support lawyers being really possessive over their clients because that was a cross purposes. And we wanted lawyers who had commercial nous, they had that commerciality to really help businesses. It was not just about fighting caseloos or even just preventing claims from arising. This was really about working alongside the business while them achieve their objectives.

So forward to today, I realized that everything that I do is connected with this mission of really building invigorated, invested, engaged workforces. That is central to everything I do. And I do that through various means. I train companies, I speak, I do lot of speaking about it, writing. I’m the head of Europe for Workwell, the company where that is really

in their DNA because we’re addressing the fact that, you know, organizations have got something in common that they probably don’t want to have in common and that is that lots of people are depleted. And we believe and we enact the fact that that is not acceptable. We have a fundamental right to be invigorated by the work that we do and we operationalize that in organizations. And, you know,

Niki Avraam (05:58)

Companies want to have a bigger conversation.

Robert Hanna (05:59)

it’s obviously important to have a big…

Niki Avraam (06:01)

The mission got bigger. During COVID times, actually, I didn’t just want to do law. I wanted to invest in those organizations and really push forward and help the movement of how we change the way that we work so that we’re as effective as possible. We untap our potential and we’re ready for the future.

Robert Hanna (06:25)

Absolutely. And thanks for giving such a comprehensive overview from start to where you are now. There’s quite a bit I want to unpack there. The first thing that comes to mind is a mentor said to me very early on, Rob, more gets caught than taught. And I think going back to your environment of being in the fish and chip shop, seeing that business run, you know, you’re probably seeing a lot of things that you’re catching a lot of things, like you said about, know, maybe staff not turning up supplier issues, all those things. And maybe that’s getting built into at a young age, sort of understanding, maybe you need to be a problem solver, find solutions, need to innovate. so

I really see you kind of growing up in that entrepreneurial environment. It makes a lot of sense now for all the amazing things you’re obviously doing and going on to do in terms of that entrepreneurial flair. And I love that you referenced sort of resilience because you know,

It is hard, you know, getting over the line with some of these things, or if you’re prepared to break the mold or do something slightly different, which you absolutely have and have been very successful doing, you do need to have a thick skin because not every day is fantastic. And I love your approach to collaboration. My listeners will be sick and tired of me saying collaboration is domination, but it’s so true. And I love that approach when it comes to client sharing, you know, not having that perceptive nature and actually encouraging collaboration, because as you come to that approach, you know, the client wins, you know, the internal culture wins. There isn’t that sort of, you know,

dog eat dog type environment and hence why you’ve been super successful. You’ve obviously built up a high level of resilience and understanding of, know, you are going to be in tough, maybe stressful situations and you’ve used that.

to the other things you’re doing. You’ve mentioned yourself a very unconventional journey. You describe it as that from employment lawyer to obviously leadership. And as you’re mentioning sort of workforce, you know, expert, what was the one moment you realized you wanted to go beyond traditional legal practice and what do you think holds so many people back from not doing it?

Niki Avraam (09:43)

It’s so important, I think, even if you follow what we might deem as a traditional trajectory. Okay, you go into a law firm, you’re a you’re an associate, you reach partner. You can do it in a different way. And what I was seeking to do from the outset was to be intrapreneurial. So I was, that’s why I say I was involved in my own job design and that wasn’t typical. And we, we often think of law as something rigid. You have to do it this way or that, and you have to follow this path.

Robert Hanna (09:49)

Yeah.

Mm.

Niki Avraam (10:13)

It doesn’t have to be that way. And I think there’s more freedom now than there was back then. But one thing I remember a seminal moment actually that happened and really changed the way I led. I was a leader, I guess, from quite an early stage because I was building these departments and we were hiring people into them. But I remember this really big case and it had gone to the Court of Appeal. It ended up… ⁓

being a precedent for employment status, whether or not you’re deemed an employee. And it had gone on for years. So we won the case at a pill stage. And I remember going back to the office, champagne in one hand, ready to celebrate with the team and walk in. We won! So, like, tour is wanting everyone to jump out of their seats and celebrate with me. But there was a bit of a kind of glazed look where they were kind of, yeah, well done, Nikki, well done.

you know, and I could see that they didn’t consider it to be their win. You know, they were looking at me and congratulating me, but it was muted. And I just remember it so distinctly because it was probably the time that I decided to lead in a different way. I’d been a kind leader. I’d really been invested with the people that I was working with. But I think I was in many ways a bit top down.

Robert Hanna (11:09)

Mm.

Niki Avraam (11:36)

thinking that all my passion and my strengths could trickle down to everyone else. And that wasn’t the case. I wasn’t taking them on the journey, perhaps being a bit controlling over how they were doing things rather than just connecting to the task. So I really started to look at that, examine it and think about why had I been so invested even early on in my career, because I had been given that autonomy. I had been empowered and I decided to become that.

Robert Hanna (11:37)

Yeah.

Niki Avraam (12:05)

and empower and enable and I started to articulate how I thought we should work together. I started to ask questions in career growth meetings. I started to hold those meetings more regularly in the first place. Questions that I promote now when I talk to organizations. What are you good at that we’re not using, you know, to really try and align people’s strengths and talents with what they’re doing.

Robert Hanna (12:32)

And so much wisdom in there. And, know, ultimately all of us need quality information. That’s how you can make good quality decisions. And how do you do that by asking better questions, right? And to your, to your point now, like you’re saying, you’re asking those questions. You’re being curious. And I wonder when you went back with the champagne, I know it was a muted experience. Was there Bollinger involved? ⁓

Niki Avraam (12:50)

No, I went my way.

⁓

Robert Hanna (12:53)

Okay, fair enough. We’ll accept that. Okay, let’s talk more about how your legal background may or may not have shaped some of your sort of leadership views because you’ve worked for both employers and individuals. Has that shaped your approach to leadership and culture generally? And if so, share.

Niki Avraam (13:10)

Yeah, as a lawyer and particularly promoting proactivity, know, at Howard Arfran, really making clear to clients that we are here to work alongside you. We want to help achieve your business objectives. When you take on that position, you really are working in the bones of the organization. And in employment law, you see the functions of the workforce, you know, so what to see beyond, even if we’d…

had a piece of litigation and I was going back to say, look, how do we not just prevent it, how do we work better? Looking at the cultural center and during COVID, know, companies were looking at why was their workforce so apathetic? You know, we were going through such a volatile time, but it was even beyond that. Not just why people don’t want to come to the office anymore. Why are they not engaged? And I really started to delve into what is it?

that engages people, what is it that really untaps their potential? Because if you don’t tap into that, you are missing out on all of that gold dust. So I say now, know, any, occupying any position, managerial or leadership, look at how you can take the best from people and how are they going to invest? Will you engage them? You get them involved in the job design? You challenge them?

forward motion is so important for people. And also in the times that we’re in now, you look at how you can create a supportive environment, a safe to fair environment where you’ve really got people’s backs. So they can be all those buzzwords we hear. So they can be agile, they can be adaptable. Because if we are looking at the importance of skills and the way they are shifting and the way we need to upskill, people need to feel safe in order to do that.

Robert Hanna (15:07)

Yeah, safety equals creativity, creativity, in my opinion, if you give people this safe environment where they can fail forward, you know, they’re not judged the result of it, the amount of creativity, the amount of sort of enthusiasm, ⁓ the culture is just an overall net benefit. And I love that you make it really specific to the individual. Again, someone said to me, you know, what is your what? And I think when you know what it is for that individual, and you can really double down and really help them get to the next level, like you say, and challenge them at times, maybe I think that’s a really

Good thing. Okay. Let’s stick on culture because it is so important. And you talk very passionately about the power of ownership culture. You’ll probably touching on a little bit earlier, but what does ownership mean to individuals working in a company and for the company in your opinion?

Niki Avraam (15:48)

Yeah, you’re right. And that it starts with the individual. And one of the things that was important to me, and I can see working in the Bainesville organisations, a level of agency and autonomy, that is important. We all need a level of control over what we do. Doesn’t mean that we are all owning businesses or working in silos. It means that we need space and that comes in various forms. The second thing I’ve already mentioned, we need forward motion.

and we need challenge. I’ve termed it as preferred discomfort. And that just means that we intentionally pursue experiences and challenges that broaden our horizons because that keeps our invigoration going. And we can always feel it, you know, when we know it’s going to be bit scary, but we want to push through. When you come out on the other side, you feel that sense of pride. And we’ve all experienced that even in our personal lives. The third thing,

Robert Hanna (16:45)

Yeah.

Niki Avraam (16:47)

which is really important to the ownership culture, is that we are not trapped by what we think we should be doing or what we thought we are in terms of how we’ve laboured ourselves. I call it the authenticity trap. And that is really saying that we need to keep an eye on how we evolve. If we have a strong core, which is made up of our mission and our purpose, then we can be more adaptable and flex on everything around it.

So the work that I’ve been doing that’s so important now is how do we operationalize that to serve those individuals? And that comes in many forms. How we craft people’s roles, job design. And that also relates to something you were touching on Rob, and that’s that people need to be connected to purpose and mission. The part of the job design is making sure that people are linked, even their day to day, to the mission.

Robert Hanna (17:38)

Yeah.

Niki Avraam (17:45)

the purpose of the organization and that there is an alignment between that and people’s strengths and their talents and their passions. That’s how people produce their best work and that’s how companies thrive. And the preferred discomfort piece, the way we operationalize that is again to create a psychologically safe space, but there can be that collective adaptability. And if we’re going to focus, which I think we should be doing,

as firms, as organisations, on people’s skills increasingly. Those skills have a short shelf life. We don’t know what jobs are going to be there. Jobs are changing. So in order to tap into the potential of the internal labour market, ⁓ we need people to be adjusting, to have that mindset so that they do feel comfortable to transfer. There are so many examples of organisations that are already

Robert Hanna (18:23)

Yeah

Niki Avraam (18:42)

tapping into that.

Robert Hanna (18:44)

Yeah. And I love that you talk about job design and, know, actually giving people the option, because it may not come to so many people. So naturally, I love that you’ve done it and continue to sort of advocate for it. And I love the idea of an impact scale to your point, people buying into the mission and the vision of the company, but actually maybe on a quarter or on a biannual or an annual basis, what’s been your impact linked to the mission and actually let’s quantify that. So you can see your direct impact because you bought into this company. You believe in the mission you

want to go further with us. This is your impact score, almost like a rating score or whatever it might be. And I think that’s a great way for people to actually genuinely be infused, excited, and actually really see how they can amplify their impact. Okay. Life happens though, Nicky. There’s lots of unexpected challenges when you’re leading. many leaders struggle with those unexpected challenges that come your way. How can choosing discomfort build resilience and innovation in your opinion?

Niki Avraam (19:37)

Hmm. Discomfort and working in our preferred discomfort is a muscle. And it’s one that we need to exercise. And when we do exercise that, it is easier to adapt to new situations, to new challenges. And that, by the way, is what leads to the great work, the innovation, because we’ve been brave enough to perhaps experiment and learn.

and then breakthroughs are made. And if we celebrate that as organizations, even having test and learn sessions or sessions where we are talking about why did this go wrong and what did we learn from it in a controlled environment, then we’re celebrating people working beyond their comfort zones, outside of their comfort zones. And we are really saying to people, you are still safe here. If you adhere to the boundaries,

and you test and learn and you stretch. I talk a lot about the stretch that we can have in our job roles. again, there are so many examples of different organizations, Google doing it back in the day. They had a 20 % margin for people to stretch. In other words, people doing other things beyond their job remit. And that led to Google Maps, Gmail. Like I say, it was back in the day.

But we can learn from things like that. We’re not taking everything from the tech giants, but it’s an example that it doesn’t have to be radical. Talking about working outside of our comfort zone, it can be incremental. I used to do ridiculous things. As a junior lawyer, guess I had freedom to turn up to work between eight to nine o’clock. I used to turn up at different times because it broke that autopilot mode. It sort of woke me up and I was engaged.

Robert Hanna (21:22)

Yep.

Niki Avraam (21:30)

I used go to court and take different routes back to the office because that made me feel that I had a level of agency and also I was experiencing a different route and I, and I just, it just sort of shakes things up. You know, when you’re in, you know, when you drive somewhere and you know where you’re going, you almost quite dangerously switch off while you’re going there. That’s, that autopilot that we don’t want. It’s good to have systems. It’s good to have discipline consistency.

Robert Hanna (21:50)

Yep.

Niki Avraam (21:58)

but we need to be awake and engaged in what we’re doing.

Robert Hanna (22:03)

Yeah. Always be, always be thinking about, you know, how can we improve, do things differently, innovate, get better. And even like you said, just those simple ways, it might be from A to B, but how can we maybe go there differently or how can we go there quicker? Or how can we challenge ourselves to do this on a different route? Or could we carry more loads? Love that. Love that. Okay. I want to talk about authenticity now we’ve touched on it. And I know it’s a word that’s banded around a heck of a lot. So let’s try and be practical and tactical in as much as we can with this in what ways can leaders bring personal, but also cultural wisdom to the workplace in powerful and authentic ways.

Niki Avraam (22:36)

I encourage everyone, leaders and beyond, to bring their wisdom toolbox to work. So what does that mean? That means that we bring our lived learnings from our lives and our experiences to the workplace. doesn’t mean that we sit at our desks and talk about everything that’s going on in our personal lives. What it means is that we understand and we recognise that we all have unique back…

and we all have unique lived experiences. And if we think about it, we can apply that to work and to leadership in particular. And there is, you know, when I talked about my top down leadership and thinking my strengths and talents could trickle down to everyone else, what was I doing? I was emulating what I had seen before and how I thought I had to be in order to be a sort of a tough leader. When actually…

I understood that that wasn’t getting the best out of people. So I started to look at what could I bring to the table as a leader? How could I develop my own leadership philosophy and bring that to the table? That is so much richer, that is so much more authentic and people will relate to that. And I talk about this all the time. The reason when I went into the workplace, when I went into law on day one, I understood the importance of

looking after a client, putting them at the centre. And part of it was, as ridiculous as it sounds, I was applying, I know it now, was applying the principles of hospitality that I had seen growing up. All Greek separate family, loads of people coming round all the time, staying over, big tables of food. We always wanted to present the best version of our home. And when they came to my workplace, when they had chosen our law firm,

Robert Hanna (24:23)

Mm.

Niki Avraam (24:30)

that you have to serve them with pride. And I would do everything for that client. If there was something that I couldn’t do, I would find someone else that could.

Robert Hanna (24:39)

I love that you’re exceptionally client-centered. And I think when you have that approach and you genuinely treat them as a client and a relationship, not a number and an invoice and a billing amount, I think that really changes the dynamic and you go above and beyond as you share there. I know you have a three pillar strategy that you may be loosely touched on, but I want to go maybe go a little bit deeper because you implement this in the style of practicing, think, related to decision-making, aligning with personal growth. So could you maybe talk us through your three pillar?

strategy in more detail and give people a bit more of a snapshot.

Niki Avraam (25:11)

Yeah, this is really about how we operationalise the ownership culture in organisations so that it’s not just fluff. We practice it and we really get the best out of people and people feel that they are connected to the organisation and the organisation in turn thrives. The first pillar is, I’ve talked about it, job design, job crafting, how we align people’s strengths and their talents and their passions.

to what they’re doing, the job that they’re doing and how we link, this is job reframing, how we link what they’re doing to the purpose of the organization. When you create that alignment, we all know this from personal experience. When we are invested, we’re connected and it’s aligning with our strengths, we’re gonna perform so much better. And there are practical micro actions that you can take as a business, having more career growth meetings.

Robert Hanna (26:03)

Yeah.

Niki Avraam (26:09)

looking at yourself as leaders, as the ambassador of people’s career growths. What are you good at? We are not using. How does what you do connect to the wider purpose of the organization? People need to matter. Culture of mattering. I saw that term in the Harvard Business Review. And the second pillar is preferred discomfort, working in our preferred discomfort. So how do we create those environments to create

the ability of people to feel brave, to work outside of their comfort zone, to be collectively adaptable. Can we implement test and learn projects? Can we look at in a law firm, what are the nuances? What’s going on in the market? And can we delve into another area of law? As long as we’re comfortable, it’s within the realms of our border expertise. The third pillar.

is agility over rigidity and not being trapped in our what we were doing, what we think we should be doing and look at how can we really utilize our skills so that they adapt and they align with the objectives of the organization and the different things that we can be doing. Airbnb created a brilliant thing and this is early on.

We’ve got five generations in the workforce today. So how can we all learn from each other? They created the money time program where people share their skills. I can learn so much from a younger employee or worker who is a ⁓ digital nomad or just is so much more engaged with social media perhaps. This is stereotyping and look at all the lived wisdom.

that an older person in the workforce can perhaps bring. So learning from each other, being adaptable in that way, having that transfer of skills is really important to how we successfully thrive going forward because things are changing fast.

Robert Hanna (28:25)

I love that insight. And it’s so true, isn’t it? Because you have such a different makeup of journeys, backgrounds, experiences at all different levels. I talk a lot about the importance of having your 360 board of mentors, people above you, people probably at the same level as you, people that need you, that you can all learn from. think building that culture is a great way to get the best out of the organization. It’s just bringing the best out of everyone. You’re getting knowledge sharing, it’s empowering. It’s a really great way to do it. So thanks for sharing that.

Again, had an unconventional journey. I want to ask about unconventional advice now. What is the most unconventional piece of advice you share with leaders that they first question, but later on then thank you for it.

Niki Avraam (29:04)

The authenticity trap is something that people always get cross about, or they say, well, no, I want to be myself. What are you talking about? You’re the one that’s telling us to bring your wisdom toolbox to work. But all that it means is that we’re prepared to shape shift. In other words, we go into even new environments. You know, I reached a stage where I’ve been to so many of the same type of event, for example.

Robert Hanna (29:08)

I’m sorry.

Yeah.

Niki Avraam (29:33)

And I wanted to go to different networking events, different communities, so I could learn and bring that level of outside into my world. That means that you have to adapt in a way, sometimes even copying people’s different styles until you adapt and learn. You have to try and do different outfits sometimes. You we talked about growing up in the household that I did. I was speaking a lot of Greek at home.

I was mixing with different people outside of the home. I perhaps was changing the way I spoke in a way to connect with the people I was speaking to. That doesn’t mean you’re fake or that you’re not being true to yourself. You are doing what you need to to be understood and to connect with people. So that’s what I mean about the authenticity trap and not being so bogged down.

with the various labels that other people impose on you or sometimes that you impose on yourself.

Robert Hanna (30:34)

Yeah. unnecessary pressure, perhaps sometimes you put on yourself as, as well. And again, I’m just sat here nodding, agreeing with everything you’re saying. Cause it’s so true. And we’ve had so many people on the show that would sort of attest to that as well. And you know, you’re very much finger on the pulse looking forwards then in terms of future proofing careers, you highlight that one in 16 jobs could be obsolete by 2030. What skills should individuals be prioritizing to stay employable?

Niki Avraam (31:04)

you know, it’s difficult to have this set set of skills that everyone needs to adopt. But if I look at broadly, we’ve mentioned this so many times during this chat, we need to remain adaptable, teachable. Teachability is something that I look at a lot when I’m interviewing people, when I’m meeting people. And I think it’s being recognised by lot of organisations. I know Siemens,

Robert Hanna (31:17)

Hmm.

Niki Avraam (31:32)

When they’re recruiting people, have however they discern it, like psychometric tests or whatever, they’re looking at people’s ability to adapt, people’s ability to be teachable, because we have to have that culture of learning. If things are going to be changing, which they are, at pace, even to even encouraging people to come on the journey, how are we going to adjust, adopt AI tools, for example?

Robert Hanna (31:45)

We have to have that culture of learning. And things are going to be changing, which they are. And even to encouraging people to come on the journey, how are we going to adjust to what AI is doing to the

company? How does that work with what we’re doing? Companies need to get people on the journey for that. And in order to engage with

Niki Avraam (32:01)

How does that work with what you’re doing? ⁓ Companies need to take people on the journey for that. And in order to engage people, in order

for people to be ready for that, they need to be ready to get stuck in and to move with the organization. That’s how organizations are going to prosper and succeed going forward. And the only way they do that is if people are able to do it with them. Because often you get companies moving, all the latest technologies.

Robert Hanna (32:21)

Yeah.

Niki Avraam (32:31)

being implemented. And they forgot, they forgot to change their leadership patterns and they forgot to take people with them. So all of the things that I’m talking

about, it really links into that ability to move, to learn. And I’m always disheartened by, for instance, that the mid-career professionals, even lawyers who feel stuck, they feel that they’re, they’re,

Robert Hanna (32:56)

Mm. Yeah.

Niki Avraam (33:00)

tired of the trajectory, they don’t necessarily want to move beyond associate or even partner and they’re thinking what else am I supposed to do? I’ve been doing this for as long as I can remember but look at the wonderful skills that you adopt. You know as a lawyer I’ve developed a level of professionalism. When I say I’m going to do something I do it. I’m thorough in what I do. I believe I deliver good work that’s important.

Robert Hanna (33:25)

Mm.

Niki Avraam (33:30)

got integrity. I’ve developed all of that as part of my service to clients, as part of my lawyering, being an officer of the court. Those are transferable. Of course they are. And we have to be able to identify them, to articulate that, and to use them. And organisations have to learn how to tap into those.

Robert Hanna (33:42)

Yeah.

And that leads nicely onto what I want to ask now around unlocking potential, but just want to sort of build on what you’re saying. So I completely agree. talk a lot of people when I’m wearing my legal recruiting hand around career moves and actually skill stacking, you know, maybe this job isn’t your final destination, but there are going to be skills you’re going to be able to stack on top of what you’ve already got that are going to be doubly transferable for X, Y, and Z. And I think that’s talking very nicely to what you’re saying there. And I say it all the time to people as well. And you’re absolutely right. Having that continuous learning mentality. And again, if you drop the L from learn, it spells earn.

invest in learning, the more you will earn. And it’s just such a simple thing to remember, but always be learning every day. What are one or two new things? What are one or two percent is I can be changed, picking up in my work to make me a sharper, better, more competitive person, particularly in the world of change that we’re going through right now. So let’s get back to unlocking potential. Cause I think that’s where you were going there anyway, because you really emphasize that statement. So what do people often get wrong about their own potential and what

actions can those individuals then take to unlock their true potential.

Niki Avraam (34:56)

People often look at themselves in a one track way. And we’ve learned to look at even professions. think generalizing stereotyping here again, that Generation Z is so much better at looking at career development in a slightly different way. So many talk about having portfolio careers. I think I’ve got a of a portfolio career now, but. ⁓

People that think, you know, that define themselves in terms of their job title, their job description, their profession. That doesn’t mean you have to be any one way. People used to say to me, you don’t come across like a lawyer. What does that mean? What does that mean? What’s important to me is that I align the technical with all of the other wonderful things.

that we’re going to serve clients in the best way, we’re going to enhance the way I negotiated a case, the way I crafted particulars of a claim or a witness statement. Creativity, that’s negotiating power, that’s entrepreneurialism, that is small stacking and that is your superpower. And I’ve met entrepreneurial accountants, I’ve met coders who are good communicators and guess what? They are the ones that prosper.

going forward, it’s important to hone your technical skills. But look at the way things are changing. Look at what’s happening with technology, with AI. You have to go above and beyond that and really look at what skills are we tapping into. And I encourage anyone not only to look at that wisdom toolbox that they’re bringing, but to identify what those skills are. Don’t dismiss them because you think they’re soft.

or you think it all falls under the banner of ⁓ emotional intelligence. Articulate them, look at your strengths, align what you’re doing as much as possible with your strengths or work towards doing that. And that is your value statement. Whether you’re going for a job, whether you’re transitioning to something else, whether you’re in a law firm, going for a promotion, that is all part of it. It’s not about your PQE, how many years qualified you are.

It is not about, you know, dotting the i’s, although that’s important too, you know. You bring all of this wonderful individual ⁓ skill set with you and you need to sing about that and be clear about what that is.

Robert Hanna (37:36)

Yeah, I always say to people a CV is not a description document. People think it is. It’s not, it is a sales document on there. You need to articulate what you’ve done, how you did it and the impact you make and shout loud about it as well, because that is ultimately you’re showing off of the great stuff you’ve achieved. And to your point about these skills. Yeah. Don’t dismiss them because maybe it is a soft skill, but actually these little things potentially have huge impacts. It could be a simple tweet that you’ve noticed.

It could be a workflow. could be a communication style. It could be a social media play, like you said, whatever it is, but don’t hide behind that because ultimately it’s also not what you say timesized to how you say it. And if you position it in the right way, it will land with the relevant people. And you’ll be able to actually make that impact. You’ve referenced throughout this conversation, Cypriot background and the Cypriot family. And thank you for being so open about that. And I think there is a leadership lesson you’ve garnered from a Greek Cypriot kitchen. So could you tell us what’s the timeless lesson from home that still guides you today?

Niki Avraam (38:35)

I gave a speech called Leadership Lessons from a Greek Cypriot Kitchen. I first gave that speech about three years ago to a really impressive global audience of leaders and I just thought, ⁓ I don’t know how this is going to land. What a weird title. That was about something I’ve mentioned before, bringing the principles of hospitality to work and leadership. The fact that we were always trying to present the best version of our home, giving the best

bedding to everyone or, you know, passing across the remote control to give them a good experience. That was so important to us. And when I reflected back on what was it, why did I understand the importance of being client centric and all of those things and the way that I was working, the way that I was engaged, it was some of that. It was trying to present the best version of our firm.

when it came to it, you know, and the way that I led, I wanted everyone to ⁓ feel like they belonged, you know, and it goes beyond that. I give a lot of talks to universities and even then I say to students, a lot of them are young, some of them haven’t been into the working world in a consistent way, but I still say to them, bring what you have from your background.

Robert Hanna (39:40)

Yeah.

Niki Avraam (39:58)

And that leads on to a wider point that it’s so important that organizations celebrate people’s differences in unifying people, that we have that diversity, not just culturally, but in people’s journeys and their lived experience. And all of this as well translates to our ability to be culturally intelligent. Because if we can tap into people’s differences, then we understand further.

where they’re coming from. That helps us to empathize with people, to be aware of where people’s origins are, what their lived experiences are, what their backgrounds are. And it’s another point that taps into people’s full potential. Because people are made up of a lot of different things, and it’s a way of celebrating it. And there are actionable ways that we can do that. I used to tell clients, you know, don’t…

Don’t just have, ⁓ in terms of going out for events, for team events, circulate it amongst your team. Not everyone wants to go down to the pub for a drink, you know? What does that individual want to do? What are their interests and hobbies? You get to learn about people and that should be celebrated always.

Robert Hanna (41:06)

Yeah. Yeah.

And as you say, that’s when you get that sense of belonging, everyone feels seen, heard and valued. And also just from the table, know as corny as cliche is we are born originals. Let’s not try and make people everyone die a copy and all be the same. Let’s embrace that originality. Let’s embrace whatever those individuals can bring to the table. And I think organizations are far richer for it. Just before we close, I want to talk about events and

speaking because you do a lot of it and you and I collaborated last year at the inaugural festival of entrepreneurs, which is hosted by Alex Chisnell. He’s a great friend of mine who runs a cracking podcast, screw it, just do it. Definitely go and check out his show as well. And we collaborated on a, on a panel there. So could you tell people about that panel and what you most enjoyed about, ⁓ that particular event and yeah, why people should probably think about attending or trying to get speaking gigs generally.

Niki Avraam (42:00)

That event in particular, I loved because it was so tangible and it was so timely. We were talking about how talent scales and we were looking at what the future holds in terms of work, how we build a future workforce that’s going to thrive and succeed and is really going to make our organizations great. So it was really lending. Everyone on the panel had lived experiences, different businesses, recruiters.

Robert Hanna (42:09)

Yep.

Niki Avraam (42:29)

There was a fractional guy who’s got an agency. And all of my lived experience in law and beyond as a workforce expert, you know, all of those things coming together to talk about how can we really make this work? Tapping into people’s potential is something that we hear quite a lot. You’ve got to do this, otherwise you’re not getting the best out of people. How is that best framed?

in the way that we tap into the labour market and the way that we align people’s talents with the opportunities that going on within an organisation. So it’s important that we hear different voices that are to help us move forward in the UK globally because otherwise we’re sort of stuck in what we’re doing. So those different perspectives.

when you’re speaking about it and you’re sharing ideas. It’s not just inspirational. It’s also talking about how it can be actions. And everything I do is, you know, there’s storytelling in it. There are learned experiences. But most importantly, it’s leaning towards why do people care? Why should they listen to me? And how can they action it?

Robert Hanna (43:50)

Yeah.

Niki Avraam (43:55)

I always want people to take things away. I, you know, just, personally, I came to a point where I felt the need to share. I want to have a greater impact. I want to help people, organizations. I want us to be more fulfilled by the work that we do in particular. What’s your mission statement? How does everything you do connect to that? It’s important that we put a voice to it, as many of us as possible.

Robert Hanna (44:17)

Thank you.

Niki Avraam (44:23)

⁓ I feel like I’m part of a movement and it’s inspiring and I want to encourage others to do it. I had a great time at the Festival Entrepreneur with you Rob because we were all talking about a subject that is at the forefront of everyone’s mind and we’re all just contributing all of our thoughts. So it’s such a great way ⁓ to communicate and to share all of our experiences and learnings.

Robert Hanna (44:50)

Yeah, and you did such a great job. And it was a great example of us. Obviously, we’d known each other from the digital world, but hold sort of changing digital handshakes into in person hugs. It’s just really nice getting out there seeing people. And I love your thirst for wanting to share and genuinely care about people. And a mentor said to me very early on, Rob, want to empty my head before I’m dead. I want to mentor you. I want to help you. And what a great way to be leading a legacy of like wanting to give back and

empower and inspire people. absolutely love that. And you absolutely go to events. It helps you move forward. You get that one or two nuggets of wisdom. You imagine the years of experience collectively in that room, how long that would take you to extrapolate that information and get that if that’s on a panel. We probably had over 150 years of experience, you know, collectively on that panel, maybe, maybe less, who knows, but the whole point is that level of experience in one room. You ask those questions, you meet those people, you connect, you get the quality of information you need that you’ve probably been stuck on. This has been a fantastic

discussion that you really enjoyed your background, the lessons you’ve learned and gave so many practical tactical examples. It’s a real masterclass. If people want to know more about you or indeed your firm or get in touch about anything they’ve discussed today, where can they go to find more? Feel free to share any websites, any social media handles. We’ll also share them as episode three too.

Niki Avraam (46:02)

have a website, Nikki Avram, N-I-K-I, Avraam, A-V-R-A-A-M dot com. and that’s got loads of stuff about me and the work that I do. I am active on LinkedIn and on Instagram. So those are the main platforms. Also Workwell, which is the organization I head Europe for, ⁓ is, has, has a fantastic website talking about all of the fabulous work that we’re doing globally to invigorate and engage workforces.

Robert Hanna (46:33)

Well, awesome. Thank you so, much again, Nick. It’s been an absolute blast having you on the show today. Thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed it. So from all of us here on the Leagues Being podcast sponsored by Clio, wishing you lots of continued success with your career and indeed all the other entrepreneurial pursuits. But for now, over and out.