On today’s Legally Speaking Podcast, I’m delighted to be joined by Mark Evans. Mark is the president of the Law Society of England and Wales. He is the 181st president, and has more than 28 years of experience in residential, commercial and agricultural property transactions and succession planning. Mark’s presidential themes include a professional Fit for the Future, championing our members and supporting solicitor well being. His mission is to promote the excellence, diversity and innovation of the solicitors profession, all whilst upholding the rule of law and access to justice.

So why should you be listening in? 

You can hear Rob and Mark discussing:

– Shaping the Future: Embracing Innovation and Diversity in Law

– Bridging the Gap: Tackling Legal Deserts and Expanding Access to Justice

– Strengthening the Profession: Raising the Bar for Legal Education and Training

– Prioritising Wellbeing: Transforming Mental Health for Lawyers

– Building Community: Connecting the Legal World through Running and Shared Experience

Connect with Mark Evans here – https://uk.linkedin.com/in/mark-evans-57927917

Transcript

Mark Evans  0:00  

There’s a role for that human element.

A lot of people come to the profession, but they’re not all wanting to go into certain areas of law. And the big thing for me is, if you look at statistics, 30% now of solicitors work in house, and that figure is going to be increasing year on year. How are we going to have that service in the high street or in the community? Some may argue to me, Well, isn’t technology the answer, or isn’t AI the answer? Well, I don’t think it is solely the answer. A lawyer is meeting and having that personal relationship with your client that the computer just cannot replicate.

Justice is there for everyone and will continue to fight for a better system.

Robert Hanna  0:38  

Welcome to the legally speaking podcast season 10, I’m your host, Rob Hanna and on this exciting new season, we have an incredible lineup of guests who can’t wait to share their wisdom, insights and experiences with you to inspire legal minds and transform legal futures. On today’s legally speaking podcast, I’m delighted to be joined by Mark Evans. Mark is the president of the Law Society of England and Wales. He is the 181st president, and has more than 28 years of experience in residential, commercial and agricultural property transactions and succession planning. Mark’s presidential themes include a professional Fit for the Future, championing our members and supporting solicitor well being. His mission is to promote the excellence, diversity and innovation of the solicitors profession, all whilst upholding the rule of law and access to justice. So a very big, warm welcome to the show. Mark, Hi, Rob, thanks for having me. Oh, it’s an absolute pleasure to finally have you on the legally speaking podcast. Very, very excited for today’s discussion, but before we get into that, we do have a couple of cheeky icebreaker questions. Firstly, what is your favourite beverage and what is your preferred choice of footwear during a typical work day?

Mark Evans  1:49  

Oh, gosh, that’s a really good question. So my favourite beverage I do like, I just like water, to be honest, which is very simple, but water for me is, Yep, absolutely, if it was a hot drink, tea or coffee, no preference. But water is my, is my staple, staple drink footwear. If I, if I could wear trainers, I’d wear trainers. But obviously, in the job wearing a suit, I normally wear just a pair of traditional shoes, but trainers would be my choice, absolutely.

Robert Hanna  2:19  

And of course, a keen runner, which we’re going to talk about a little bit later on. So that on. So that also makes a lot of sense. But Mark, you’ve had a fantastic journey up to obviously, where you are today. Would you mind telling our listeners just a bit about your background and career journey to kick us off? Yeah.

Mark Evans  2:33  

So obviously, you know, it’s hard to believe that I’m president of Law Society of England and Wales. Never, for one Inkling did I think, growing up as a child that, you know, one, being a solicitor was possible, but two, actually going into the profession and and leading it. And to put this into perspective, obviously, I’m from a small village in north Wales, state educated, no background in law. First generation to go to university, basically never thought law was for me. My dad was a steel worker. My mom sort of worked in the local primary school as a volunteer. And growing up, I wanted to be in the police you know, I thought the police force for me was the good way to go in, but I wasn’t tall enough. And so I am quite tall. Now I’m over six foot something, but, but as a teenager, I wasn’t tall enough, and when I was in the sixth form, my history teacher basically said, oh, you know, Mark, you’re interested in law, aren’t you? And I said, Well, yeah. And so he he got me a work placement with a friend of his, a law firm. And that really, that opportunity changed my life, because I spent a week in the summer basically at a law firm, gaining experience seeing, you know, real people and real problems. And I just loved it. And I thought, You know what, I’m going to go and do a law degree. And then it just snowballed from there. But it was the opportunity, really, to get work experience that changed my direction. And actually, bizarrely, once I did get a place to go to university, I then had a bit of a height growth, growth, and then I could have actually joined the police, but by then, you know, the rest is history. Absolutely, I

Robert Hanna  4:19  

was just thinking, because you and I have obviously met in person and done some collaboration. Done some collaborations, I was like, Mark’s taller than me, so I understand no chance for getting into the police. So that makes sense, the growth spurt, and thanks for sharing a bit of that background and that break you got. You just need that one break, doing that little bit of experience, that one something, and then it can really change your direction. And from there, you have more than 28 years of experience in residential, commercial, agricultural property transactions, succession planning, you name it. What drew you to those areas of law specifically?

Mark Evans  4:47  

I mean, in my training contract, I did two years, I did a varied portfolio, family and crime and different areas. But for me, I sort of felt more at ease in private clients. And property. As a student, I worked in a pub. I liked working behind the bar and meeting people, and this was an area of law I felt very comfortable with. I never, you know, I never felt as comfortable sort of in litigation as such and so. And also, when I joined the firm, I was at my senior partner at the time, basically, was winding down and looking for a successor, and so he sort of brought me under his wing, and sort of introduced me to his clients. And actually I liked them. Really enjoyed it. And so it was, yeah, sort of again, by chance. I’m then married into a farming family, and that was the area of work, you know, I was doing as well. So yeah, it felt really natural. And, you know, I had a really good couple of decades, shall we say, in that type of work. And what was nice is, you know, you start to act for generations of people, you know, grandmother and daughter and then grandchildren. And it’s a really nice area of law to be in.

Robert Hanna  6:02  

I love that, and love the generations beneath and my listeners will know a lot about I talk about this, but my late grandfather inspired me, who ran his own law firm from the 1950s which is a sort of High Street firm that spun out across several offices. And what most actually inspired me was after he had retired, and many, years, he’d received Christmas cards and letters from clients, but also the generations beneath them, clients and beneath them, just thanking for the work his law firm and he had done and the impact it had on their families. And I thought, Wow. What a legacy. What a way, even post retirement, people want to sort of be connected to you. And that really sort

Mark Evans  6:37  

of stuck with me. I mean, for me, you know, I always remember example where I’d acted for a grandmother, and then many years later, you know, the grandson said to me, you know, you she passed away by then, and she said, Oh, you knew my gran, didn’t you? And I said, yeah, yeah. He said, I remember she had a dog, and I could name the dog. And he said, Oh, yeah, I love that dog, you know. And it’s just that little connection. It’s, you know, law is the law, but it’s those personal connections that you establish with your clients, like your grandfather had. And you know, it’s, it’s a really nice part of the job, and I

Robert Hanna  7:09  

think it’s remembering. It’s also a very people and relationships business. And you know that human to human connection? Yeah, that’s really important. And things sometimes can also be a separator for you, rather than seeing it as a transaction. And look fast forward, Mark, you’ve been really successful. You’re now the current president of the Law Society, and you’ve set out three, I think presidential themes. Can you tell our listeners what those themes are?

Mark Evans  7:35  

Yeah, and I think the themes have really come from the fact that after I left sort of private practice, I then I’m now a lecturer at the University of Law, so I’m teaching aspiring solicitors on a daily basis. So for me, I really been focusing on the next generation and how we can and support and help those entering into the profession, but also those within it at the same time as well. So my themes are really generic. Three themes. One is a profession that’s fit for the future. So we’re looking to basically looking at the challenges that we face, looking at how we can support people, and getting more people from diverse backgrounds into the profession as such, and retaining them in the profession, and obviously that will encompass technology and AI and all the things that go with it. But really, as a profession, looking to the future with optimism, how can we evolve and how can we, you know, survive in it? The second theme for me is really to try and overcome the negativity that is out there in the press and in the media about championing the work that we do as solicitors, day in day out, throughout England and Wales, in every town, in every city. You know, unfortunately, the actions of one really have an adverse effect on us all. But you know, if you look at the volume of transactions and the amount of good work, like your grandfather did in the community and all of that. It’s really, really championing that work. And then my final one, which is a real big hot topic for me, is supporting solicitor wellbeing and having discussions openly about wellbeing and the impact it has on you as an individual. What firms can be doing, maybe to help and support and what membership bodies like the Law Society can be doing to have those discussions in an open, transparent way, and trying to reduce the stigma that, you know, mental health sometimes has around it.

Robert Hanna  9:36  

Absolutely, we’ll talk a little bit more about mental health. It’s something I’m very passionate about and, you know, I’ve done some events the great big legal off site, which connected to league stream podcast. We’ve had law care as our charity sponsor, and think they’re doing fantastic work to try and support, you know, lawyers in and around the profession. I want to talk about skills for modern practice, because you’re touching it on there. And I think I’m correct. But according to the Law Society’s annual statistics. Six reports, 2023, 33,000 solicitors are expected to be admitted to the profession by 2027 you stated you want to ensure young people are aware of the routes they can take to qualify and are confident that their legal education and training prepares them well for their careers. So how confident are you that the current education and training framework, including the good old sqe equips aspiring solicitors with the skills they need for modern practice. And where do you see room for improvement? Quite the question.

Mark Evans  10:29  

Yeah, quite a question there, Rob, but I think there’s this huge scope for improvement if I set out a wish list. So we say ideally I’d like legal education, or law to be taught in primary schools and secondary schools as part of the national curriculum in England and in Wales, or certainly is there to be more conversations to try and encourage more people into it? Obviously, now we’ve got differing routes into the profession. We’ve got the traditional degree route that people are going down now we’ve got apprenticeships and the growth in that. And clearly, you know, to qualify as a solicitor, you need the solicitors qualifying exam. I’m really looking forward to 2026, to really having engagement with the solicitors Regulation Authority. It’s a five year review of sqe, you know, so looking really at what’s working, what needs to be improved, and basically feeding in the information I’ve had as a lecturer for my students, for my constituents and of also from other council members, really to see now, you know, having looked at it for five years, where are we? Where are we going, and having that dialogue with the SRA, basically. And, you know, so I feel as if I’m in the right place at the right time to express, you know, my opinions on it, you know. And you know, I’ve got opinions that I will share. Are we in the right place, you know? Clearly, I think there is work that needs to be done. You know, some of the aims with sqe, for example, haven’t been met with regard to social mobility, the funding structure of it, and you know, the lack of data and information, some of the times we’ve now got, but, but you know, can we change things? Can we improve things? Yes, I’m sure we can. And certainly that’s what I’ll be lobbying

Robert Hanna  12:20  

for, yeah, and you’re doing a great job, it has to be said. And you know, you’re very proactive. I see as a very proactive president, and the things that you’ve been doing and the plans that you have, and really to try and make those improvements. And touching on there, I want to talk about legal deserts, because in the Law Society Press Release of your appointment as president, you shared as President, I will raise awareness of legal deserts across England and Wales, where solicitor numbers are declining and communities are struggling to access legal advice and justice. So how do you envision the Law Society addressing this issue, and what practical steps can be taken to support solicitors in those underserved areas?

Mark Evans  12:58  

Specifically? Yeah. I mean, obviously, a lot of the time the word legal deserts is used in connection with legal aid, where you have a shortage of legal aid providers in certain towns or in certain cities. But I’m using this in a broader spectrum. You know, there are, you know, the results are showing now that, as is happening in most high streets throughout England and Wales, many institutions are now leaving the high street, you know, if you look at the banks, for example, you know, how many, how many high streets now has a traditional bank in there, and other financial institutions. There’s a growing age, sort of, you know, in the solicitors profession in these areas, with no younger people coming in, or no succession. So there’s going to be a tipping point where eventually, in the high streets, we’re going to start to be losing firms as well. And you know, once they’ve gone, it’s unlikely they’re ever going to come back. So what we need to be doing is obviously pushing for the value of having that community service, having local, accessible legal advice on your doorstep, and trying it in any way we can to encourage people to stay within their community. Now, obviously, to do that, there’s different ways that we can be lobbying, you know, government and such, whether it be for improvements in, you know, grants or sort of subsidies, or, you know, helping with training for cyber security or whatever, and helping firms stay, you know, competitive within their area, but, but the worry for me is, there’s a lot of people coming into the profession, but they’re, they’re not all wanting to go into certain areas of law. And the big thing for me is, if you look at statistics, 30% now of solicitors work in house, and that figure is going to be increasing year on year, which means that, how are we going to have that service in the high street or in the community? And some may argue to me, Well, isn’t technology the answer, or isn’t AI the answer? Well, I don’t think it is solely the answer. It to it, you know, going back to what we were discussing before, about that personal touch, about acting for grandfather, or, you know, the daughter and the grandson, that’s what a lawyer is, is meeting and having that personal relationship with your client that the computer just cannot replicate.

Robert Hanna  15:18  

No absolutely and again, thank you for being so so thorough and thought out in your response. And it’s very clear, you know, from your your time with being president, you know lots of change is going to happen. I’m very excited for that, and I welcome it. I just want to come back to the mental health and well being points. I know it’s something that you really are passionate about, and a chance maybe just to explain any plans to address mental health or well being, of solicitors that you maybe want to educate them on, or things that you’re thinking about that probably haven’t been thought about before. To really try and get on top of this.

Mark Evans  15:50  

Yeah, so basically, earlier in my presidency, we launched get involved, a new strategy, really, to try and get people involved with us on a national level. Not you know, normally people associate getting involved with the Law Society nationally as being on a council, on a committee, but getting involved is basically where you can volunteer to have your voice or express your opinion. One of the drop downs on the Get Involved project is well being so if you have, if you want to express your interest in being involved in discussions or round tables or meetings in 2026 you can register now to your interest in being involved in the projects that I’m going to be developing. So you know, when I’ve been in Leeds or Liverpool or Swansea, most people have been saying, Well, how do we, you know, what can we do to we’ve got ideas, and this is what my firm is doing, and this is what we’re doing here, and it’s collating all this information together. And so, you know, I’m hoping to have meetings here at Chancery Lane, where we’ll get key stakeholders together to have discussions. I’ve been for my council dinner in December, I invited law care and the solicitors charity and the Bar Council, Barbara Mills, to come and speak about well being as that was our main theme. And it’s just raising the dial now and just having those conversations and actually saying, You know what, we’ve all maybe had a wobble, or we’ve all had issues as such, and it’s how we now talk about them and overcome them, but also to start to think a little bit out of the box. You know, the traditional you don’t have more than two weeks holiday, for example, whereas your firm often will cover you if you’re off sick, you know, indefinitely. But might say, Well, I’m not keen on you having three weeks off in the summer, as such, it’s just having these new conversations. So watch out for lots of things that’s going to be happening in 2026 for you to get involved, basically, and, you know, share your opinion. And I think the key for me, the more diverse people who get involved in this, you know, and have these discussions, the better the benefits will be for us all. There is going to be a good chance that we’re going to come up with a concrete plan before I finish my presidency.

Robert Hanna  18:11  

And I believe it, and I think that the message I’m getting here is that the door is wide open, the Law Society is wide open for everyone get involved. And yeah, I just love your your approach to all of this, it’s all sounding very positive, but with all change and pushing for, you know, developments, there are challenges, and you know, we’ve touched on a few already, but what do you think, or one you’d like to reiterate, what is the most significant challenge the legal profession is facing today, and how do you plan to address it, as the current president of the Law Society, yeah.

Mark Evans  18:42  

I mean, there’s lots. I mean, you know that the if we start to look at the challenges we face, it is huge, you know, and in my old 30 odd plus years in the profession, you know, technology has changed. It has changed. The one big issue that I think that hits more people, and is more pressing is, is the burden of regulation as such? You know, time and time again, yeah, I meet practitioners saying, you know that anti money laundering and client checks and the reg, you know, all the administrative tasks that they’re now being asked to do. And you know, as a property lawyer, you know, when I started, I view it that maybe I had sort of a jigsaw that was a, sort of 100 pieces. We’re now, it’s over 1000 you know, it’s it. There’s so many tasks that you have to do before you can even get into doing the job itself. So it’s looking how we can assist and sort of reduce regulation, and look to see how we can sort of improve the day to day, you know, issues that are facing solicitors, you know, at the coalface. And you know, there are some positive things here. We got some consultations out at the moment on home buying and selling, for example. Or, you know, we clearly are looking at changes in with the SRA and the Financial Conduct Authority on AML. So, you know, whatever your you think is an issue, I’m going to go back to that word again, get involved. And, you know, make sure your voice is heard, so that, you know, we can at least say we’ve tried to make a difference. Now, clearly it would be for politicians or others to make decisions, but we need to give it our best shot.

Robert Hanna  20:26  

What I’m sensing from that is you’re you’re trying to move and reduce friction, you know, so business and things can get done, and it’s not so, like you say, it’s heavily the regulations and slows things down and, you know, clunkiness. So you’re trying to make, hopefully, a far more seamless experience for all involved, which again, has multiple challenges, which could be a whole podcast in itself. You touched on before aid, Legal Aid. So the Law Society has been vocal about the crisis in civil and criminal legal aid. Can you tell us what reforms you believe are most urgently needed?

Mark Evans  21:01  

I mean, the most urgent reform is investment in the system, which there has been some obviously, you know, increases recently announced. But I think looking to the future, practitioners feel that this is maybe just, you know, a plaster rather than a fix, you know. And when you speak to people, they want commitment, and hope, you know, they want a commitment from government, basically to say that things will be reviewed on an annual basis, rather than, you know, decades before it’s looked at again. Clearly, you know, we’ve seen increases in civil and you know, housing and immigration and crime, but also, I’m seeing that many, you know, students and aspiring sisters are not wanting to go into those areas as well, because they don’t see the future in it, you know. And so we’re seeing firms shutting down or so we’re looking for me about making sure we reinstate access to early legal advice, you know, so that there is a mechanism for people to take early legal advice to hopefully not clog up the court system. That basically we want certain guarantees for legal aid, you know, to be there and obviously fair means testing as such, to be in, you know, so that justice is there for everyone. Legal Aid, lots going on, and we’ll continue to fight for a better system.

Robert Hanna  22:32  

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Mark Evans  23:46  

Technology has its role. And clearly, you know, from, from, from what we’re seeing at the moment, you know, obviously we have an AA strategy looking at, you know, innovation and impact, and, you know, integrity, you know. And so it’s basically making sure that those using technology, there is some rules and guidelines that everyone is following, you know. And there’s an increasing, you know, over half of solicitors firms now are using some form of AI as such. But also we need to make sure, when we’re speaking to government, you know, that there is, again, a level playing field across the country. You know, not everyone has the same internet access, or digital, you know, broadband speed. And even where I live in North Wales, the mobile phone signal is poor. The internet signal is poor. So, you know, there has to be access to, you know, if it’s there, has to be fully accessible to everyone. I think you know clearly in my time, in my career, I started with a manual typewriter search and how it’s evolved. And, you know, I think as lawyers, we do. Evolve. Just as we change the law changes, we will apply the advice to it. And so I think, you know, technology will have its position. What excites me is those who are coming after me, my colleague, you know, my vice president, Brett and Dana, who’s Deputy Vice President, they’re really into technology and AI and everything else. So I know, you know, this is going to be an issue that’s going to be, you know, going on for a number of years. And I’m confident as a team, you know, we’ll be able to lead on this.

Robert Hanna  25:31  

I completely agree. And yeah, excited to, you know, see Brett in action, and Dana’s a great friend of mine. And, you know, congratulations to her and all her great success. And you know, her OBE and yeah, I think, yeah, her tech approach, I think, is all very exciting. And as you say, as a team, because we is greater than me, you know, real impact camera can be achieved. You’re touching on it there. The sort of digital transformation within the legal sector is currently, definitely going through one What are your thoughts generally, for the role of lawyers evolving alongside in AI and legal tech. What are your thoughts on what that future lawyer looks like?

Mark Evans  26:04  

I mean, I go back on that, you know, you, you have to, we have to be embrace what’s happening. We’re in a global legal market, even though we’re, you know, this is here in England and Wales. Many of clients now, obviously, deal with cross border issues and everything else. So clearly, you know, there were areas within your firm, or, you know, as an in house, where you can streamline things with the use of technology and data processing and that. But I go back to what I said before. There is still many areas of law that has that human element to it, and so I think it’s going to evolve. But you know, when somebody’s, you know, coming to you having suffered with domestic abuse or, you know, certainly personal issues or a bereavement or an accident, or, you know, they’re looking to to seek advice for you, sort of early confidentiality, I still think there’s a role for that human element in it. Now, obviously, you know, the Legal Aid, I mean legal advice, you know, streamlining as to where to go, using technology as a first port of call, is something that has got huge potential, you know. So it’s like a filter system to say, you know, you put in what you say, and this is, this is where you need to go, and this is the advice that you need to take. You know, it’s like the hospital, is it? You know, you phone 101, or whatever the figure is, and you get a triage, basically, you get told where you are. I think many people don’t realise the legal problems they’ve got, and start off in the wrong direction. So that’s where technology could be really, really useful in doing that initial triage to say, No, you’ve got employment issues here. You need to see this person or the this, this, take this sort of advice moving it forward?

Robert Hanna  28:00  

Yeah, we’re going to talk about employment law next. And you’re right. Actually, it’s what someone said to me very early on, before I set up my own legal recruiting business, 10 years ago and got into the legal space from, obviously, more of the family side. They said people don’t, you know, hire lawyers to answer their questions. They hire lawyers because they know the right questions to ask in the first place. I think that’s the key point to your point to your point around they don’t necessarily know the issues, or they don’t know what the and that’s where the expertise and that years and years of training and understanding that wisdom and that advice really does come true. So let’s talk about employment law, then, because we are seeing rapid shifts in employment law from flexible working to AI related rights. Which developments do you think will be the most transformative for solicitors?

Mark Evans  28:44  

I mean is in the employment field, there’s been some huge sort of, you know, changes and announcements. Obviously, the government’s decision now to give unfair dismissal rights at six months of employment obviously marks a significant shift from where it originally committed. You know, we have concerns still about, you know, day one rights in employment. And obviously that could overwhelm potentially employment, you know, sort of tribunals. Obviously, there’s all the issues regarding protecting workers rights, giving certainty to business and individuals, and also, you know, I’m sure you’re aware of, you know, the backlogs in employment tribunals continue to spiral. They’re concerning. And obviously, as employment law and changes are going through Parliament, obviously we must ensure that the whole system is properly funding and resourced, because otherwise it’s not going to, you know, the changes aren’t going to sort of have any true effect. So as I say, there’s a lot going on at this moment in time.

Robert Hanna  29:51  

There is, and you’re right, if nothing changes, nothing changes ultimately. And you know, it’s a really key, key point that you make. I want to switch lanes now. So I want to talk about something you and I share a passion over, which is running, because you have launched the legal runner community, and I’m a big fan of community as well, and I think it’s amazing what you’re doing, but for folks that might be new to this, can you explain what legal runner is and what motivated you to create it? And do you have a merch with you today?

Mark Evans  30:16  

I do have some merch, which I will show you afterwards. Yeah. So basically, the background to it was my father had been in a care home with dementia, and basically he’d been there for about five, six years, and I was visiting him, and his health was deteriorating, and I felt physically and mentally drained. And so at the end of 2019 2020 I decided to do something about it, and I decided to take up running. I couldn’t run 10 minutes on a treadmill, and so I actually signed up to do a Chester triple in 2020 which was a 10k in March, a half marathon in May and a full marathon in October, 2020, and I thought, if I sign up and I run for Alzheimer’s Society, I’m committed. I’ve got 10 months to train to do it. And I did it. Covid happened, so I had to do the virtual London Marathon, and I had to do the virtual half marathon, but I lost two and a half stone. I felt incredibly great from starting running, and all of that was on my own, because it was with covid training on my own in isolation. And then I got involved with my local park run, and basically, did you know volunteered there? And what I began to realise is that I started to talk to people when I was running and, you know, completely strangers, I would open up and talk about my father and dementia and baby loss and all these issues that I’ve never talked about, really. And then I realised that, wouldn’t it be great if I formed a running group for the legal community, where people understand you and the work that you do without having to explain it. Because if you’re running for somebody on a 5k let’s say, half an hour, having to explain what a lawyer is or what a lawyer does, or having the conversation we’ve had now just wouldn’t happen. So to create a running group for the legal community. And I mean everyone in the legal community, solicitors, barristers, staff, support staff, you name it, sydex, where we can just meet up and run and it’s just flourished. We’ve gone from nothing. I’ve got a website, I’ve got 12 150 members on LinkedIn. I’ve got 45 regional contacts. It’s now gone international. I’ve got people in Australia and in Canada and in Mexico as such. And you know there, and every shirt that you buy goes all the donation goes to law care, the mental health charity for the legal profession. So, so I got in touch with law care, and I said, I’ve got this idea. What do you think you want to be involved? And so designed the shirts. They got their sleeves now, so I’ll show you what we’ve got. I’ve got three colours. We’ve got the red, which obviously for me, me matching with you there, Rob, search, that’s a bit of our colours. There we go. We’ve got a blue, if you’re interested in the blue. Or we have our final colour. Here is a green, a green shirt as well. Now, ultimately, my aim is for the other colours of the rainbow as such, to come in, maybe in 2026 2027 to match the pride flag, basically, so that when we all get together as a group as such, we can, you know, show our unity and support for other communities as well. But, yeah, it’s just really great. And the fact is, and I know you find the benefits of running, it’s such a good stress reliever, and you don’t have to be good at it either. And I’m not good at it. I’m not fast, you know, I just really enjoy the benefits that it gives me on a on a personal level. And I don’t think I’d be doing what I do now had I not have done that in 2020

Robert Hanna  34:21  

and thank you for sharing that, and thank you for the work that you do. And I even said to you before we went on air, I did a run before this and even this morning, I woke up with a fire I needed to put out with a client that something had gone wrong. But instantly after the run you do just feel that so much better for yourself. And I also think, like, what you’re doing when endorphins are up, people are just sort of together. That’s natural, authentic conversation just comes out, doesn’t it? With people, yeah, with people on a on a different level. And, you know, someone said to me before, Rob, have you ever regretted just going for a walk? And I was like, No, I feel good for it. You know, similarly with running, particularly, going at your own pace, and you’re not trying to break the world, and you’re just doing it. For you, you’re not doing it for, you know, trying to whatever it may be, of course, if you want to be competitive and go for absolutely, but the overall well being aspect to it, I think, is transformation. That’s helped me as an entrepreneur, for sure.

Mark Evans  35:10  

And I think, you know, especially for men in particular. You know, it’s strange we’re having this conversation looking at each other, but actually, you’ll find that on a run where you’re not giving anyone else eye contact, you’re just looking at the road ahead of you. So it’s the person to the side of you or to the back of you, ahead of you, is just openly talking without actually giving you eye contact. Yeah, and it’s a different conversation that you have than sitting, you know, across the table with somebody giving them eye contact. You feel. And you know, maybe if you’ve got a family and in the car, your kids will talk to you in the car, but not at the kitchen table, you know, because you’re not really focusing or looking at them. So it’s the same philosophy, really, I think it’s that comfort. You just you’ve got a comfort where you can talk. And the whole point of the legal aspect of it is people understand the pressures that you’re in and the court system or the filing system, or going back to that regulation, you know that what you’re being the burdens that you’ve been had and just sharing sometimes, is is, is all that it needs to to clear your head.

Robert Hanna  36:19  

Agreed, and you’re right. Sometimes, you know, if you’re not getting the information, change the environment. And, you know, you some some environments people grow. Some environments people don’t. So if you kind of create a new setting, a new environment, you probably bring out the best of them before. And, you know, putting my legal recruiting hat on, where people have been in certain firms that haven’t been right to them, they put them in another firm, the new environment, and they flourish, and they go on and achieve all of their career goals and dreams. You touched on Australia. Want to talk about this, because I love my time out. Love my time out in Australia, because you did sort of represent the Law Society of England Wales, out there as part of your trip, you implemented legal runner. So can you tell us what you most enjoyed about incorporating

Mark Evans  36:54  

and taking this project abroad, as you mentioned, all these various places? Yeah, I think for me is one wherever I go now with the Law Society and try incorporate a run such. And so it’s a good way of exploring a city, because you don’t have much time when you go on a trip, most of it is fully scheduled in, you know, meetings and conferences and different things. So running is, you know, the end of the day or the beginning of the day. And what’s now beginning to happen for me is I’m meeting other local running groups or other people in the conference that I’m there, and we’re having either a run or a group, you know, chat together. So it’s great now to you know, in Australia, I went running with the president of the New Zealand Law Society and one of the top judges in Australia. We went for a run in Canberra, around the lake, you know. And it was just fascinating to have a discussion, you know, on the other side of the world with two guys who enjoy running. And when we were in Mexico, we did the same. And in Toronto, there’s a fantastic running group in Toronto as such that, you know, from all around the world. And in fact, I’m meeting somebody from Brazil later today who’s going to be, I’m going to give him a tour around the Law Society, and he’s got a party that’s come over here to Chancery Lane.

Robert Hanna  38:13  

I love it. I love it. Yeah, and it’s funny, you mentioned Toronto, because Cleo, who obviously support our show, are out there, and Jack Newton, their CEO, I don’t think he’s missed the days running for over 17 years or something crazy whilst running an organisation. How good it all is. And I just love your ambition for it, and yeah, just what you’re doing. I think it’s great. So I’d encourage folks to definitely go and check out what you’re doing on the legal runner side of it. 2025 was a big year because it marked the Law Society’s 200th anniversary and provided an opportunity to reflect on its rich history, celebrate the diverse community, and look towards the future of the profession. So what initiatives has the Law Society been part of to celebrate this event?

Mark Evans  38:49  

2025 been fantastic. You know, we’ve obviously, it’s been the 200 years of the Law Society. You know, we’ve been reflective. We’ve looked at our past, we look to see where we are, and we’ve been looking to the future. I mean, we’ve been on so many events throughout England and Wales, meeting our members from, you know, Newcastle down to the south coast, across to Wales, over to Norwich in the Midlands. You know, I think there’s been about 26 sort of regional events that we’ve been doing that’s all been feeding into our new corporate strategy for the Law Society for 25 to 28 so most of the information now is like looking and building upon the information we’ve been getting. Clearly, that engagement with people has been fantastic. We’ve had some artwork unveiled recently here in Chancery Lane, you know. So it’s not the traditional sort of image that you would now see traditionally here in Chancery Lane, you know. We’ve had lots of events going on as such, and we had an open house here at Chancery Lane as well for the Festival in September. Her, which was great, but it’s just been really, a really good vibe. And, you know, there’s been a digital sort of history that you could look at and, you know. And so you look to see how the diversity of the profession has changed, you know, over the last sort of decade, or 50 years, 100 years, you know. And so, you know, obviously the membership is increasing, the diversity is increasing as such, you know, and we need to ensure that the society is reflecting our members and our needs. But it’s been great to be involved in that. It’s just, you know, for us, you know, we’ve had international receptions, we’ve had round tables. It’s just been great. And as an office holder, I’ve thoroughly enjoyed it.

Robert Hanna  40:48  

I love it, and you’re doing such a good job, it has to be said. And leads nicely on to legacy, which is something I like to talk a lot about. But what legacy would you like to leave as the president of the Law Society of England, Wales, 2025, 2026,

Mark Evans  41:03  

legacy is a good question, really. I think for me, on a personal level, if you go back to using that running analogy, then Rob, I think, you know, I’m on the third leg now of a relay race. So, you know, basically I, at the end of my year, want to pass the baton on to the next generation in a stronger place. It’s not for me to finish the line or to get to the line, it’s to get around that corner on that bend in a running race as strong as we possibly can, and putting us in the best position we could be for the next steps, and that’s how I would want my legacy to be, is that, you know, that we’ve, we’ve, we’re going in the right direction. There’s work that needs to be done, and hopefully, you know, encouraging those after me to follow on with that work, and continuing the work that we’re doing as such. And and I’m confident in, you know, in people who are succeeding me, with Brett and Hanna and all of that, things like on well being, and things we’ve been discussing today will be continuing. It’s part of our corporate strategy. And everything else as I say, it’s being a little bit more human as such. You know, I post a lot. I share, you know, my, my, my stance. Are trying to get the image of just, you know that we are, we’re lawyers, but we’re human at the same time as well. But, yeah, I’m really keen to pass that button on and that the next generation drive it forward,

Robert Hanna  42:41  

and you will, and you are doing, and I think it’s great. And before we let you, you go, just the final piece of advice you would give for those interested in pursuing a career in the law,

Mark Evans  42:52  

just simply do it. If you’ve got an interest in it, then follow your dreams. Really. You’ve got such a diverse career to enter into. You know, whether it be sounds silly, but you could be doing aviation law, maritime law, family law, employment, you name it, you know, you’ll find an interest in an area of law. And just, just do it, it’s, it’s fantastic, you know. But also go into an area of law that matches your skills and your personality, if you, if you, if you’re very much client facing, then those social sort of, you know, skills will come in really handy. But if you’re more sort of introverted, or then being part of a team, or working in, you know, on projects might be more for you. And that’s where that flexibility comes in. And then we haven’t even touched upon it, but then you got your you’ve got your advocacy and your litigation, and you know, all of that goes with that as well, and the skills that are required, it’s a fantastic area, you know, to go into. For me, it goes back to, you know, you’re helping and supporting your community. You know, as lawyers, we all have one thing in common. We all want to find solutions and help people and support people. And often, you know, as I say, it’s at our core. We it’s just something. It’s in our blood. We just want to do it. And so if you’re thinking about it, I think you’re already halfway there.

Robert Hanna  44:19  

Yeah, I love it. And like you say, just do it night. That tagline is so, so timeless. And the key word in that tagline, of course, is just, you know, do it wouldn’t have landed so well. It’s the just go and do it. Make it happen. Don’t overthink it. Go and follow your dreams. And Mark, this has been a fascinating discussion. Really, really enjoyed learning more about your background, and, of course, the wonderful work you’re doing with the Law Society. And, of course, legal runner and building community. I think it’s brilliant. If our listeners indeed want to learn more about you, or legal runner or the Law Society, where can they go to find out more? Feel free to share any website links once again, or social media handles. We’ll also share them with this episode for you too.

Mark Evans  44:51  

From our perspective, I can give you our we’ll drop into you our Law Society website search. I can give you our legal. Runner website as well. Also, you know, I’m going to encourage you to get involved with your local law societies, and, you know, the local level. I’m pretty sure many of your listeners are going to be, you know, involved in that. But there’s so much out there. And I’m also going to promote, as I said at the beginning, about get involved, a new, you know, project you know, and how you can sign up for these wellbeing initiatives and other things that are going on. So I’ll certainly feed you as much information as I possibly can for you to share with the listeners.

Robert Hanna  45:33  

We will, for sure, and we’ll put them in our show notes. And thanks again, Mark, it’s been absolute pleasure having you on the legally speaking podcast sponsored by Cleo. Thank you so much. Once again, wishing you lots of continued success with indeed, being the current president of the Law Society of England, Wales, and your future career and pursuits. But now, from all of us on the show over now, thank you for listening to this week’s episode. If you like the content here, why not check out our world leading content and collaboration of the legally speaking club over on Discord. Go to our website, www.legallyspeakingpodcast.com, there’s a link to join our community there, over and out.