On today’s Legally Speaking Podcast, I am delighted to be joined by Rachael Heenan.

Rachael is a Senior Partner at Capsticks Solicitors LLP working with clients who seek to make a difference. Ranked as an Eminent Practitioner in Employment and Healthcare and described as a ‘phenomenal, superstar lawyer’ and ‘an inspirational role model’, Rachael is also a CEDR-accredited mediator specialising in workforce, partnership and governance issues along with being a Qualified Executive Leadership Coach. If that’s not enough, Rachael has also been listed in the Lawyer Hot 100 for Firm Management.

So why should you be listening in? 

You can hear Rob and Rachael discussing:

– Rachael’s Inspiring Career Journey and Experience

– A Mediator’s Dynamic Leadership Philosophy

– What Coaching, Mediation and a CEDR Accreditation Mean

– The Importance of Diversity and Inclusion

– Why We Need to Embrace Technology and Change

Connect with Rachael here – https://uk.linkedin.com/in/rachael-heenan-7b29b07

Transcript

Rachael Heenan  0:00  

Don’t be afraid to get professional help. When I first went to coaching, I thought, oh, there must be something wrong with me. I need some help. But actually, it’s transformed my life for the better. I think lots of law firms offer this sort of thing, and you should take it up. You shouldn’t see it as a failure. By having to have a coach, it can change your life. It’s a good technique. As a lawyer, we tell people what to do. We give people our opinions. We’re a coach. Is harness your clients brilliance, believing in your client and helping them get where they need to get to. It’s not about doing it for them or telling them. So it’s quite liberating to be able to sit back and say, well, actually, it’s with you

Robert Hanna  0:35  

on today’s legally speaking Podcast. I’m delighted to be joined by Rachael Heenan. Rachael is a senior partner at Capstick solicitors, working with clients who seek to make a difference, ranked as an eminent practitioner in employment and healthcare and described as a phenomenal superstar lawyer and inspirational role model. Rachael is also a cedar accredited mediator specialising in Workforce Partnership and governance issues. Along with being a qualified executive leadership coach. If that’s not enough, Rachael has also been listed in the lawyer hot 100 for firm management. So a very big, warm welcome to the show, Rachael, thank you for having me. Oh, it’s an absolute pleasure to have you on the legally speaking podcast. And before we dive into all your amazing experiences and things you’re getting up to in and around the legal community, we do have a burning icebreaker question here on the legally speaking podcast, which we’ve done since day one, which is on the scale of one to 1010, being very real. What would you rate the hit TV series suits in terms of its reality of the law? If you’ve seen it on the scale of one to 10?

Rachael Heenan  1:37  

Have seen it minus one so as a senior partner, unlike Jessica, there’s no corner suite, there’s no drinks cabinet, there’s no wardrobe budget. But it did make me reflect, actually, on all the TV programmes, the legal ones that I’ve watched over the years, and the ones that initially caught my attention as a sort of 1011, year old, your rumples of your Bailey, your cabinet, QCS, through to your la law, your ally, mcbeal, and then the more gritty one, sort of this life. And I think the most realistic one is silk. That’s one of my favourites, I think. But also good to see women coming through from the original sort of role models that I have. So yeah, it was quite an it was a good question to make me reflect. So thank you. Oh,

Robert Hanna  2:22  

no worries. Well, thank you for a very detailed and thorough answer and indeed, sharing a bit of the journey of some of the shows. And I think we’ve had a previous guest, I forget who that also referenced silk as probably the most realistic to a day in the life. But let’s talk all about you then to begin with, would you mind telling our listeners a bit about your background and career journey?

Rachael Heenan  2:40  

Sure. So I was born in Liverpool, travelled around quite a lot as a kid, first in my family to go to university. My cousins still think I’m the strange one. My dad was a prison officer, prison governor, and so was sort of involved in this sort of criminal justice system, very much into sort of rehabilitation, and he always wanted to be a barrister, but he had to leave school when he was 14 because he didn’t have enough money. So for some reason, I decided to, sort of, you know, inherit that dream, which is probably not the best reason to start a career, but it obviously captured my imagination. I’ve read a lot the drama of the sort of Bailey stuff, really, really, you know, run Paul with the Bailey captured. I don’t know what it was, as an 11 year old girl, maybe like to argue a lot, but it really, you know, really, I feel very lucky that I’ve always known I wanted to be a lawyer. Probably didn’t know what a lawyer did. Became a barrister. Didn’t like that. We might go into that in a bit more detail, and then sort of found my niche as a solicitor, working with teams and clients over the years. So I feel, I feel very lucky, and then eventually running a law firm. Now, if you’d asked me when I was I don’t know 20 what a partner did or what a senior partner did, I wouldn’t have had a clue. But I’ve always wanted to go to the next level when I’ve got to that level, so that’s, that’s what I’ve

Robert Hanna  3:59  

done, yeah, and it’s a hugely inspiring journey. And I always say, you know, and I got picked up from my mentors, you know, new level, new devil, so to speak. But let’s get into your your health, social care, regulatory and housing sector work, because you you have experience working with clients across a range of different sectors. Could you explain to us the type of work that you do?

Rachael Heenan  4:19  

Yeah, so I still practice. About 20% of my work is still in employment, as an employment lawyer, act for employers in the public sector. So lots of high profile cases, lots of politicians, quite often involved, which makes it hard to talk about. So alongside the law or the employment issues, you know, there’s the politics, there’s the governance, there’s the regulatory there’s the court of public opinion, and most of the public sector organisations are big employers for so for an employment lawyer, that’s that’s great work.

Robert Hanna  4:50  

Yeah, no, absolutely. So I guess you’re dealing with different clients across these different sectors. How do you tailor your approach, if at all, to each. Particularly if you’re advising on like, you say, employment in a certain area, or governments in a certain area, business strategy in a different area. What are some of your key top

Rachael Heenan  5:08  

tips? Some of it’s about outcome, isn’t it? Don’t let the law get in the way. Some of it’s about understanding the client’s position and all those sort of factors that I mentioned. It’s quite difficult in the public sector to get stuff done, it’s quite difficult to sort of navigate your way through employment law and and we only work with clients at capsticks who make a difference in the community. So trying to, you know, our clients very often get a bad press, but they actually quite often try to do the right thing by their staff. So that’s very, that’s very rewarding, but look for the outcome, like in any business, not just law, and don’t, don’t give them just the law, try and work with a client to help them further.

Robert Hanna  5:50  

Yeah, no, I love that sort of relationship piece and really connecting with them going above and beyond, just beyond the law. Let’s talk about some of the memorable cases, if you can share. Is there one that you’ve worked on that sort of encapsulates your practice areas nicely? It’s

Rachael Heenan  6:07  

really difficult to talk about it. The one I do remember, though, is my first day as a pupil barrister, which is not a bad start. And when I say pupil barrister, I carried the bags and I did the photocopy, but I was in the court of appeal with my pupil master, who was acting on behalf of some, some brilliant men and women who’d been kicked out the army for being gay, and at that time, if you, if you’re gay in the military, you’ve got a dishonourable discharge. And that case went all the way to the European Court of Human Rights and was found to be a breach of breach of their human rights. So that’s, that’s the one case that sort of stuck with me, following the themes that sort of high profile point of principle and sort of trying to do the right thing. So I felt very lucky that that was my first day, sort of surrounded by all these clever barristers and thinking, gosh, what am I doing? I better. I better take a note, because I was my memory.

Robert Hanna  6:59  

What great advice isn’t that, though, you know, when you’re surrounded by other people, you know, particularly, you start your journey. Be a sponge, be curious, open up to learning. And you know what? Like you say so early on, one of the most memorable cases, given everything else that you’ve gone on to achieve and do. So let’s go forward to the present. Then, you know, senior partner of CAP sticks, you know, since I believe 2017 so what does a typical day look like for you? Talk us through it,

Rachael Heenan  7:24  

I think it’s whatever the firm needs. So that’s what I like about it. It’s completely different. So managing partner, I think most people know what the managing is. It’s operational, making sure that the business delivers the operations. A lot of my works in the background, so getting the right people in the right places, whether that’s clients, whether that’s teams, meet with clients. I’ve got a mediation practice. Meet with I chair our partnership, meetings with our business owners. Quite a lot of coaching and mentoring with staff. I’m responsible for leading on the strategy. So there’s quite a lot of work in terms of reviewing progress around that. And I also lead the firm’s BD team, so making sure our customers, internal within cap sticks Get, get what they need to do their job. And so it’s all about creating the right conditions for everyone to succeed. I always say that the job, it’s quite hard to pin down, and I think every firm senior partner does something different and does it in their own way, and it also depends on your managing partner. And I’ve been really lucky to work with all the best managing partners, and we’re, you know, we complement each other in terms of our skill set, so it’s a real team effort. I

Robert Hanna  8:35  

think I love that. I always say collaboration is domination. Our listeners be sick and tired of me saying that, but it’s so true, and we is greater than me. From the team perspective, not everyone makes senior partner. Let’s be real about that. It’s a huge feat, and kudos to you and everything you’ve achieved. What’s one skill in your toolbox you think you’ve had throughout your career that may have evolved or may have developed over the years, that’s helped you reach the level that you have, and is helping you operate as a successful senior partner.

Rachael Heenan  9:04  

I think it’s about people, because people are very self centred, aren’t they? I think it’s about people thinking she can help me. So leadership, I think, is not about leading from the front. It’s about going, come on, we can do this, and I’m going to give you the skills to do it. So I think that, I think that, I think people trust me. They trust my values. And that will I will always try to do the right thing if it’s difficult. So I think, I think people thinking, actually, she’ll help us deliver. Again, it comes back to

Robert Hanna  9:33  

collaboration, doesn’t it? Yeah, and again, I always say everyone’s favourite radio station, wi TFM, what’s in it for me. And I think if you can really meet that person in terms of what’s in it for them, and like you say, build that inherent trust, then you’re going to take them on the journey a lot to

Rachael Heenan  9:46  

say what’s in it. For me, that’s okay. You know, just human aren’t we

Robert Hanna  9:50  

exactly, exactly. And you know, success keeps coming on. Because I think leave congratulations. You’ve been reappointed as senior partner for a further term, for four more years. I think. That starts around the first of May. So what plans do you have for that? If you can

Rachael Heenan  10:05  

share. So we’re about we’ll relaunch our strategy again. It’s a refresh strategy because it’s worked well, so we’re not going to change it. So the last couple of months, I’ve been working with the senior leadership team to get that into place. So that’s the big project. And again, I think making sure that, I think leadership is also about succession, so making sure that the right people are coming through at all levels, and making sure that we’ve got a real diverse community at cat sticks, so that that’s part of the job that’s really important to me.

Robert Hanna  10:36  

Yeah, and I guess one other part of the job is problem solving, you know, running any sort of, you know, every day. So I guess, you know, it comes with its challenges, doesn’t it with sort of, you know, senior responsibility. So what’s been the biggest leadership challenge you faced as a senior partner, and how have you gone about overcoming it?

Rachael Heenan  10:57  

I saw this question. I was like, Oh, is it is it leadership, or is it life challenge? I think it’s probably life because how you turn up as a leader is really important. So I think there’s two things, if I’m allowed to. One is, what’s that pink song? Don’t let me get me. Yeah. So there’s something about it’s quite a lonely job, and you’ve got to feel confident, not overly confident. So I freely admit, for the first two years of being senior partner, I went around going, what am I meant to do? What is the senior partner meant to do? And I always say to our new partners, the first year is going to be really difficult, because you’re trying to work out what’s, what’s, what does it actually mean? But once you settle down into it, once you start delivering the stuff, you think, actually, I can do this. I’m all right at this. So I feel probably the most confident in my career I’ve ever I’ve ever felt, which I think is but I think it’s also important to know that I have worries and doubts as well, and sometimes you let your head win, and you have to battle with that. And then the second thing is life, because, you know, we are really fortunate to have these jobs, but so many of us do it alongside raising kids in my case, or in my case now, you know, dealing with with caring for parents. My dad’s got advanced dementia, and so I’m a carer, and that that’s what the important thing is. So find a firm that recognises you bring your whole self to work, and everyone’s got a lot of stuff going on and supports you through that, yeah, yeah, that, for me, has been there, so probably not leadership challenges, but it’s how you turn up as a leader, isn’t it? That’s important. Well, I think

Robert Hanna  12:29  

you hit the nail on the head life like we all have variables going on. We’re not just one minute the lawyer and then not the lawyer. You know, we’re humans, right? And so the makeup of our life and what happens around us, you know, inevitably, can affect you. And I think you right. I think you need to pick firms that understand that, like you say, if you’re raising a family, you’ve got elderly parents, or you’ve got an ambition or a passion or something else that respects that and can support that, and as long as you’re getting the job done, that’s what matters. Let’s talk about legacy. It’s something I’m very verbose about trying to do. My grandfather ran one of the most successful law firms of his generation in the 1950s and built a stellar offline reputation, and I’m trying to emanate that in the podcast, media, social world, but you were re elected as a senior partner, and you stated, I’m really grateful to cap sticks for allowing me to continue in the best job in the world. We have achieved a lot over the last nearly eight years, and there’s still loads more to do. Cap sticks really wants to make an impact supporting. What legacy would you like those in the legal profession to remember you by? I was laughing this

Rachael Heenan  13:30  

morning. I was at the gym. She made it out alive. Would that be an okay

Speaker 2  13:33  

one? Absolutely. Yeah. That’s raw, raw and honest. Yeah,

Rachael Heenan  13:37  

I am. I’m not into the sort of legacies. I think that’s quite old fashioned. I think it’s about I got the right people in the right place, from the right backgrounds, the right social backgrounds, and demonstrated that anyone can be a lawyer where you come from. And I think, I think that’s really important to me, both from a firm and the profession. So I think if I have to have a legacy other than the being alive, I think that would be it.

Robert Hanna  14:03  

Today’s episode is brought to you by Clio, champions of innovation and legal tech and proud sponsors of some of the most exciting events in the legal calendar. And looking ahead to July the third, Clio is proud, once again, to be involved in the great big legal off site, gblo 2025 this one of a kind gathering blends learning, innovation, wellness and community in a refreshingly different format, powered by us the legally speaking podcast and high risk gblo Is the UK’s ultimate legal leadership getaway, set at ribby Hall village in Lancashire, over 200 SME law firm leaders will come together for a full day experience designed to challenge, connect and inspire, expect incredible talent, diverse legal voices and thought leaders taking the stage, plus a VIP dinner, live music, golf, spa access, Monster Truck cheerleaders, Titan the eight foot AI powered robot, and hosting it all the legendary VOICE OF. The X Factor. Britain’s Got Talent. Peter Dixon, this isn’t just another legal conference, it’s a movement, and your future firm, it starts off site. Cleo will be there, and we’d love to see you there too. Now back to the show. It’s always about, you know, you’re lifting up others, aren’t you always say, once you reach you teach and you support and you send that elevator back down, and you know you’re obviously doing a great job of that. And I guess some of the tools and skills that you’ve picked up along the way is obviously through the wider qualifications you have as well. So you are a CEDR qualified mediator. What does that mean for those who may be less familiar,

Rachael Heenan  15:34  

the cedar is one of the places you can get qualified, and it’s a it’s probably one of the most challenging courses I’ve ever been on, but I’m also keen to learn. And you get there day one and you’re surrounded by high court judges and cases who are all panicking more than you. So it’s a real leveller. But what it means is that rather than being a lawyer where I say, This is what I think we should do, you help the parties create what they think they should do. So it’s much more of a coaching. So I resolve disputes. A big focus is about breakdown in relationships in the workplace. So I get groups of people together and create something for how they can work together going forward, rather than someone leaving and that, that that’s, that’s from bit the job I like the most at the moment. Just that sort of that magic of saying, Okay, well, that’s the past. How do you create something positive for the future? And it’s much better than going to litigation. She says, As a litigator.

Robert Hanna  16:32  

Yeah, very true, very true. So let’s talk about mediation a bit more detail. Then, what skills have you learned from that? And what do you think it takes to be a successful mediator,

Rachael Heenan  16:43  

you have to learn to switch your brain from being a lawyer, because you don’t give an opinion. Actually, people want they want your approval. They want your opinion. But that’s not the job of the mediator. You’ve got to be reflective. I think you’ve got to ask the difficult questions, but in a constructive way. So I had one recently where the two parties were at each other for an hour about, you know, everyone’s misdemeanours. I thought, God, what am I going to do? And I just said, so why? Why are you in business together? And that really changed the tone of the discussion. So you got to ask those questions. You’ve got to observe what’s really going on and what they’re not really telling you. And I find that bit fascinating. Got to be able to bang some heads together occasionally and be creative. You know, the law gives a give a structure, but if you go to court, a judge can only award certain things, whereas in mediation, in private, you can be much more creative around this sort of stuff. So that’s why it’s really, really rewarding. Oh, and you’ve got to be, you’ve got to be human and bring humour so people, it’s really important that people trust the mediator, that they will help them find a way through this really difficult situation.

Robert Hanna  17:50  

Yeah, you’ve mentioned the word trust a few times. I’m just curious. What do you think it takes to build trust, and what do you look for when hiring, promoting people within the firm from that trust? Is it a value? Is it a trait? Yeah, just want to get your thoughts on trust, because it’s something that I think very important to you.

Rachael Heenan  18:15  

It is values, isn’t it? To start off with, you can’t make you interview someone and you don’t really know them. And then it’s actions, isn’t it that your actions are aligned to those values? So it’s how you it’s how you help your colleagues out, it’s how you look after your clients, it’s how you look after yourself, which is really important, that you are. You know, years ago, we all had to pretend to be robots as lawyers, didn’t we? We didn’t have emotions. We all wore the same suits, and now, thanks to COVID, we can all dress differently and be ourselves, and thanks to people like you for getting that sort of personal brand out there. Yeah. So I think, I think trust is, yeah, you have to earn it, but also you’ve got to trust the people that most people want to do a good job. And sometimes things get in the way that stopped them doing that, and we’ve got to unlock that. So, yeah, I think that that, for me, what it’s about is what it’s about.

Robert Hanna  19:07  

Yeah, no, really, really, well said, and we absolutely support that. And yeah, obviously, as a show, we’re trying to build that community. We’re trying to, you know, bring amazing voices like yourself to the show that you know are really leading, not just of law firms now, but of you know, like you say, you’re getting them ready for the future, the next generation, supporting them, instilling new ways of working, new practices. Because, you know, the only constant in business is change, isn’t it? And you have to evolve as a firm or as a senior leader, and it’s really encouraging to see that you’re proactive about that as well, rather than reactive. So let’s talk a bit about the early stages. Back to your early stages of your journey. Then you’ve touched on before you started life as a barrister. So you qualified as a barrister before becoming a solicitor. What influenced your decision to go from barrister to solicitor?

Rachael Heenan  19:52  

I hated being a barrister, so having wanted to be one, I got there and thought, what is this all about? And. Um, I didn’t, I think, at that age, I didn’t have any confidence. I was riddled with self doubt. And I remember when I was leaving a very famous female Casey said to me, why are you going you’re really good. And I said, because I don’t think I can, I don’t think I can do it. And she said, Do you not think we all think like that? And I thought, gosh, if someone had said that to me at the beginning, there may have been a different outcome. So I think that’s why it’s important to show that we’re all human, and we’ve all got the same fears and doubts. So yeah, became a solicitor, actually with the law firm that was representing in the Court of Appeal, because that made that connection, and then realised that actually, I really like people. I really like teams. I like the fact that some of my clients I’ve had for 28 years, some of those connections. And whereas a barrister you you know you’re into one case and then you’re on to the next, and you don’t see the full story, do you know and that’s never regretted

Robert Hanna  20:58 

And look, you know you found your passion, and you know, you flourished as a result of that and achieved great things. I guess. Just to go a little bit deeper on again, we’ve got people from all walks of life and in the legal world different stages. So if people again, who may be less familiar, differences between barrister, solicitor, what are some of the differences between your previous role, way back then to now, as sort of a senior partner leading a national law firm. I

Rachael Heenan  21:21  

always say, Oh, they don’t teach you this at law school. Do they senior partner job? I just know, no, there’s no comparison. I think, find a place where you like to work with, work that you like to do and people that you like to work with. I think also you don’t know yourself. You get to learn more about yourself and what you’re good. I think there’s much more at school these days and around careers, isn’t it, around strengths and stuff, and what sort of areas do you want to get into? What I mean, I really like people. So employment law for me was a good thing. But you might like buildings, you might like deals, you might like really technical law. So So decide, and then, then work out, actually, do I want to do advocacy? Do I want to do do I do I not want to talk to anybody? Or do I need to talk to anybody? What energises you during the day?

Robert Hanna  22:03  

Absolutely. And I guess a quick question. You know, through your journey, we talk a lot about the importance of mentors, having a good network around you, support systems. Have you had mentors that have that have helped you, or are there people that have helped you just generally progress your career, or during those moments of self doubt and indeed, success that you know you advise others to think about when it comes from a mentoring

Rachael Heenan  22:30  

perspective, yeah, and I’m always a big part of my job. I’m always happy to coach or mentor anyone outside of capst as well, because I do think there’s a responsibility. I think I’ve had a couple of mentors, Alison Morley, who was the previous management partner and persuaded me to join cap sticks. Was brilliant. But also, don’t be afraid to get professional help. I’ve had some brilliant coaches. And I think when I first went to coaching, I thought, oh, there must be something wrong with me. I need some help. But actually it’s it’s transformed my life for the better. So I think lots of law firms offer this sort of thing, and you should take it up. You shouldn’t see it as a failure. By having to have a, you know, by having a coach, it can change your life,

Robert Hanna  23:10  

yeah. And, you know, we advocate for that. And the easiest way to context that is look at sport. You know, every successful team has a great coach, you know, and they always play credit to that. And similarly, within your, you know, the professional working world. It is almost a superpower. It’s a career enhancer if you have the right coach. So, you know, listeners will be thinking, how on earth have you got time for everything that you’ve done and you’ve achieved? So again, you know, in all seriousness, you know, you become a qualified executive leadership coach and you’re a senior partner of a law firm. You know, time management must be very important, and something you’ve been able to perfect, talk us through that, and how you’ve been able to build all these additional things connected to your profile. 

Rachael Heenan  23:50  

Well, some of it is about having the tools to do the job. Well, isn’t it? I’ve coached a lot of people, and I suddenly thought, How do you know you’re any good at it? And it turns out, I had a lot to learn. But again, it comes back to trust, doesn’t it? If we if we’ve hired people to do their job, we should just let them get on with it and show us how good they are and how good we believe they are. So I don’t get involved in stuff that I shouldn’t be involved in. Don’t feel the need to be involved in stuff within the firm. I let people make that decision on the management partner, and I do the stuff where I can have the most impact and stuff that interests me as well.

Robert Hanna  24:22  

I think it’s so important that you do that, because I think otherwise it will lead to burnout or to this job dissatisfaction. And always say, if you’re having more good days than bad days, then that’s maybe a time to have a point of reflection. You know, life in itself is there’s going to be some days that suck, and that is just part of that is part of life, right? But I feel if you’re having more bad ones than good ones, than good ones, and you need to do something about it. Ivan, change the environment. Think about getting a coach do something different to to enhance your your workplace experience. So why did you choose to pursue a course in executive coaching in the first place?

Rachael Heenan  24:54  

Because I always I like to learn and I like to challenge myself, and as I said, I’ve. I’ve coached and mentored people over the years, and I thought, what if you’re bit rubbish? What if you’re not doing and I think as a lawyer, it is very it’s a good technique. As a lawyer, we tell people what to do, which give people our opinions, whereas coaches, harnessing your clients brilliance, believing in your client and helping them to get to get where they need to get to. It’s not about doing it for them or telling them. So it’s quite liberating to be able to sit back and say, well, actually, it’s with you.

Robert Hanna  25:27  

And it’s quite nice seeing those results, though, as well of those people that you have coached, and you know, seeing them feel good about themselves. And you know, you’re just unlocking those talents and skills and abilities and letting them flourish, which I love again. I touched on it before. Obviously, you know, not everyone also makes partner, let alone senior partner, so maybe there’s some mid level lawyers listening to this today that have ambitions to rise to partner, or maybe feel like they’re treading a bit of water right now. You know, from your experience, what advice would you give to a solicitor is looking to make partner in the future?

Rachael Heenan  26:00  

Well, I think my first question, if I was coaching them, is, why do you why do you want to be partner? What is it you think it will bring because lots of people get there a bit like me in the first two years of being a senior partner, I think, what have I done? So what you know, what is it you think it’s going to be and then it’s back to that joy, isn’t it about so what? What in the job do you enjoy doing? And who do you enjoy working with? And is that going to change when you become a partner? If it’s not, then absolutely, that’s the, you know, that’s, that’s the way to go for but there might be a better, a different way of achieving what you want to achieve. And we get fixated as lawyers about, you know, competition and having the badge and stuff. But it might not always necessarily be the answer.

Robert Hanna  26:41  

Yeah. And I think doing the work like you say, ask yourself those questions, just because it may seem and there’s so many different options now in the legal industry, you know, it used to be traditionally trained at the one firm, stay there forever, take the final salary pension and done. And now it’s not like that. There’s so many different options. You can get into legal tech. You can get some interesting in house roles, whatever it might be. So the world of law is changing. So two questions before we wrap up, what’s been the best piece of careers advice you’ve received that has stuck with you throughout your journey?

Rachael Heenan  27:16  

Oh, gosh. You need to you need to believe in yourself. You need to see what other people see.

Robert Hanna  27:26  

Yeah, I love that. It’s so true. I remember when I before I set up my first legal recruiting business and other businesses I wrote sort of believe to achieve. And I just had that sort of above my desk every day when it was a no, a, no, a, no. We don’t need to use you. We’re not interested. You just have to have that self belief. So I love that. And a final question, and I think this is hard for anyone to answer, because we’re not. And of course, you know, we can never do a podcast now without talking about technology, because it’s, it’s more prevalent than it’s ever, ever going to be an AI and everything else. But what does your view on the future of what a law firm looks like, given that we’re going through a radical technological change in the workplace, that’s never going to be the same again. Does that excite you? Does that scare you? What are the thoughts of a senior leader from a tech perspective? 

Rachael Heenan  28:14  

I think it’s brilliant. I think it’s absolutely brilliant. I think we’ve got to, we can’t ignore it and go, Oh, it doesn’t apply to us. We’ve got to, we’ve got to embrace it. If you think about though, the impact that COVID had on the way we work and how that is much better for everybody. People can pick their kids up from school, they can go to the gym, they can look after themselves. Surely, there must be a way to help clients with the with tech. Yeah, it benefits everybody. So, yeah, I’m a huge I like a gadget as well, so I like a bit of data.

Robert Hanna  28:45  

Yeah, you and me both. Yeah, we’re all about tech for good here. Well, this has been fantastic, Rachael, as I knew it was going to be. So if our listeners want to know more about you, or indeed, they might be interested in a career at capsticks. What’s the best way for them to find out more? Feel free to shout out any social media handles or any website links, we’ll also share them this episode for you too. Thank

Rachael Heenan  29:06  

you for having me and for making me feel so comfortable. It’s always a bit nerve wracking. You think, Oh God, I’m gonna be boring, and best way is LinkedIn. I’m always happy for people to send me a LinkedIn request, particularly law students. Happy to chat to to anybody that way our website, which is capsticks careers, and just send us an email, very, very simple, very approachable, happy to talk to anybody, if I can help them at all?

Robert Hanna  29:29  

Yeah, absolutely. And you are doing that for sure. And we’ve loved having you on the legally speaking podcast, so it just leads for us to say thank you so much once again for your precious time today on the show, but from all of us on the legally speaking podcast, sponsored by Cleo for now, over and out. Thank you for listening to this week’s episode. If you like the content here, why not check out our world leading content and Collaboration Hub, the legally speaking club, over on Discord. Go to our website, www.legallyspeakingpodcast.com has a link to join our community there, over and out.