Ever wondered what it takes to build a thriving, independent legal practice?

This week, I’m joined by Brian Scherer, Founder of HeyCounsel, a unique community where lawyers help each other grow their practices. Brian shares insights from his journey in FinTech law, the evolution of data privacy and the biggest challenges in startups today. 

If you’re curious to learn more about the world of community and innovation and how these are shaping the legal profession of tomorrow, this episode is a must. Go give it a listen now!

Go give it a listen now!

So why should you be listening in? 
You can hear Rob and Brian discussing:

• The Importance of Understanding Legal Rules and Regulations

• Privacy by Design and What it Means

• The FinTech Industry and its Evolution

• Brian’s Experience Advising Innovative Startups

• The Creation and Development of HeyCounsel

Connect with Brian here –

https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianscherer1

Transcript

Brian Scherer  0:00  

The rules are the rules, right? If you don’t know the rules of the road, then you’re going to build products that don’t necessarily work. You know, if there’s something outside of your area of expertise, you still coordinate with with outside attorneys or contract attorneys or other law firms just to get get the work done. So there’s this big, great exchange, I call it of work, of knowledge, of just help. It’s happening organically. It’s not something you can manufacture now. It’s really starting to take off. And I’m starting to see just a lot of activity there

Robert Hanna  0:33  

on today’s legally speaking Podcast. I’m delighted to be joined by Brian Sher. Brian is the founder of HeyCounsel, a community in exchange, where lawyers come together to help each other build their independent practices. He is also a fractional General Counsel himself, working primarily with FinTech, consumer tech and SaaS businesses as they enter growth mode. He has a wealth of experience as a product and privacy counsel at blend, Senior Product counsel at open door, corporate counsel at Lending Club, and was an associate legal counsel at JP, Morgan, Chase and CO so a very big, warm welcome, Brian. Yeah,

Brian Scherer  1:06  

thanks for for having me. This is exciting. I’m not. I’m not the normal podcast guest, but here I am. How well,

Robert Hanna  1:14  

it’s a pleasure to have you, and we like to bring lots of different voices and perspectives onto the show. And before we dive into your background and what you’ve been getting up to in and around the legal industry. We do have a customary icebreaker question here on the legally speaking podcast, which is on the scale of one to 1010, being very real. What would you rate the hit TV series suits in terms of its reality of the law? If you’ve seen it on the scale of one to 1010, being very real. I mean,

Brian Scherer  1:41  

I’ve seen probably one and a half episodes of suits, and I put it probably at like a one. My wife and I are not good TV watchers. We literally don’t even we have a TV that hangs in our in our, like family room, but it doesn’t even work. So whenever we, like, give ourselves the pleasure of watching some sort of series, it’s usually some documentary about about some cold, cold case or murder, which is, you know, not the most fun stuff to watch, but that’s what we do. But yeah, I don’t know. I would say suits, just going off of what other people say, probably not very real, but yeah, and I think yeah,

Robert Hanna  2:27  

you’ve hit the nail on the head. And with that, we’ll move swiftly on to talk all about you. So to begin with, Brian, would you mind telling our listeners a bit about your background

Brian Scherer  2:35  

and career journey? Sure, yeah, the career journey is an interesting one, and it’s certainly not linear at all. From Maryland and I went to school, both undergrad and law school in Maryland when I was 25 and moved to New York and took up a litigation job with JP Morgan, doing mortgage litigation, basically bank defense work. I didn’t love it, and I was kind of searching for, you know, what’s the next step? And fell into basically what ended up being a career in FinTech. So I just got, kind of got lucky, with a company that I had never heard of called prosper. They were one of the first, or the first mover, in peer to peer lending. They made an offer to do legal and compliance work for one of their recently acquired lenders in Salt Lake City. I love skiing, so I was like, let’s go. I packed my bags and moved from New York to Salt Lake, and that kind of began a four year or, sorry, a four startup journey, inter in terms of like hopping jobs all the way through multiple different types of FinTech companies. So Lending Club, their competitor, open door, which was like a house, house flipping marketplace, essentially buying and selling homes online. And then blend, which was a B to B. SAS, software for banks. So, yeah, it was, it was a journey. Ended up like, I just started. I didn’t know what FinTech was before I started. And now I feel like I am all like, through and through fintech.

Robert Hanna  4:13  

Yeah, absolutely. And what a great breadth, and, you know, rich experience you’ve had across all of those things you just mentioned there, you’ve recently also been outside General Counsel at scale. So for those who may be unfamiliar, can you tell us what is a fractional general counsel, and what did you roll involved there? That’s a great question.

Brian Scherer  4:33  

I feel like that’s a question that everyone’s still asking. What is a fractional general counsel? And it really depends. It depends on the company that you’re working with, and it depends on how you the fractional GC like to fashion your practice. I think the more experience you have as a lawyer, and the more different types of practice areas you’ve been exposed to, your breadth of services. Becomes wider. And so I think a fractional GC with like five years experience is very different from a fractional GC with like 20 years experience. For me, I like to handle regulatory and commercial work. So my fractional GC practice is mostly me working with companies that have a lot of work to do in those areas. And then you kind of play like quarterback or point guard, or, I don’t know what the right soccer center field. What is it so? So, yeah, it’s basically you end up playing point person for all things legal. And so you know, if there’s something outside of your area of expertise, you still coordinate with with outside attorneys or contract attorneys or other law firms just to get get the work done. So it’s kind of like do everything all at once and be that point person for for your startup or company,

Robert Hanna  5:58  

very big role, you know, fair to say, and lots of responsibility and breadth. I want to kind of talk a bit about product development, because you provide counsel to startups across all stages of product development. So what are some of the common pitfalls? And you’ve probably seen quite a few over the years in terms of FinTech, consumer tech or SaaS startups, and actually encountering particularly at that very early stage, and how can they think about maybe avoiding some of these? Yeah,

Brian Scherer  6:24  

I mean, I, I so it’s interesting being a product Council, you start to like, you start to think as as if you were a product manager, which you’re not, and the product teams and engineering teams are really good at reminding you that you’re not. I I would say the thing that I’ve learned is there’s a lot of opportunities, especially when you’re building in regular, regulated spaces. So, like, I was in FinTech for a while, and then, like, prop tech, so real estate in the US, and I think there’s a lot of missed opportunities in really, like, if, if I could put myself in the shoes of like a product manager or someone designing a product, I don’t know if the they’re always looking at opportunities in compliance and legal as as business opportunities. And what I mean by that is, like the rules, are the rules, right? The rules of the road are, you know, the federal regulations for FinTech companies, the state, state money transmitter licenses, the everything from, you know, privacy to to FinTech to financial services regulations to consumer just general consumer protections regulations. Then in, like, the prop tech world, it’s, you know, all the again, the federal regulations, the state rules around, you know what? How you can buy and sell homes, those, those are the rules, right? And if you don’t know the rules of the road, then you’re going to build products that don’t necessarily work. And I don’t think a lot of new, newer product managers from newer companies really see those as opportunities to build something that makes, I guess, an immediate difference, and they kind of trip over themselves a little bit. So I would say that’s, it’s not necessarily each pitfall. I think a lot, a lot of early stage companies get away with kind of skipping over certain regs, taking calculated risks, right? Like that’s, that’s what companies do. It’s the whole model of disruption. Kind of say, is that rule necessary? And are we harming anybody if we if we don’t follow it? But I do think there’s a lot of missed opportunities to understand why those regs and laws and rules were there in the first place, and then building into those and building the product with those in mind. So, so, yeah, I would say, let’s say that that’s probably a big missed opportunity there.

Robert Hanna  8:47  

Yeah, and I love what you sort of mentioned about, jokingly, about the product side. We had, hey mom, cash out. Who’s the Chief Product Officer of Clio support our show. And he said something around product in terms of people involved in that, said they need to learn to love, to fall in love with the problem, not the solution. And that was a really great way of actually looking at it in terms of, you know, really getting transfixed on what it is that, you know, potentially, is the problem linked to the product, rather than just immediately focusing on trying to find a solution and actually get really obsessed with problems, because ultimately, that’s what you need to try and overcome. Okay, let’s talk about the evolution of FinTech, because, as I say, you’ve worked across some big companies. What significant changes have you witnessed in FinTech over the past few years? And how do you see things moving forwards? Yeah, Fintech

Brian Scherer  9:32  

is has definitely been it’s been evolving. There’s it goes through different hype cycles, different trends that you begin to notice as you hang around. So I would say maybe three or four years ago, massive trend towards like bank partnerships and bas providers. So banking as a service providers, you have these newer FinTech companies who are building technology, but. They didn’t have the bank rail, so they all department with banks. And there’s this massive influx of banks basically marketing their banking rails and services to these fintechs, right? And that creates the ultimate partnership. And then you have these bas providers that connect everyone. So the ecosystem was like, rich with those. Those have kind of fallen out of favor due to regulatory enforcement actions across the board, and then, and then some, some pretty, pretty big missteps by a couple of well known bass providers and and banking, bank partners. So as that’s happened, I think that that whole area has slowed of the industry. And then, you know, we had the crypto craze, I would say, like two years ago that really took over FinTech as, like the, you know, star of the show, that hype cycle has died a little bit, and now it seems like we’re kind of entering a pipe cycle of, like, payments companies, I think there is, like, a new kind of resurgence in the bank, provider, bank partnership model, but, but, yeah, it’s, it’s kind of it this, these trends. They they like, it’s like, anything like something’s hot one year, and then it’s not, mostly because the regulators get involved. They’re like, Oh, this is too hot. We need to check this out. And then it cools innovation there. So yeah, I would say, like, right now the big thing is our payments, companies, cross cross border, payments, remittances. And, yeah, I’d say that that’s probably the, the big trend right now, yeah,

Robert Hanna  11:40  

yeah. And I love that you talk about trends. And, you know, I’m probably going to butcher this completely, but I was at a talk with a keynote speaker recently who said, you know, we overestimate how good technology and AI is in the short term. I use this initial hype, and we expect it to be amazing, complete, finished article right from the start, but then we actually underestimate the value it can be in the long term. And I think that goes in time, you know, the hype and the cycles and the trends and what you’re talking to, and it’s really, really important that, you know, ultimately surrounded by experts and you know what you’re doing in terms of getting that good rich, actually, information to make informed decisions you touched on before privacy. It’s such an important point, because you know, data is basically the new gold. You know, working with multiple companies on data privacy, could you elaborate, from your experience, what privacy by design actually looks like in practice, especially for those handling very sensitive data? I

Brian Scherer  12:35  

think the simplest way to think about it is, if you were to start with the idea that privacy is sort of like this fundamental right? How would you build products? I think that kind of breaks down into a few things. One is making sure your users are very aware of how you’re using their data. So it’s not just a privacy policy, because the reality is no one reads them. And when I mean no one, or I want to say no one, what I mean is like, no one. Lawyers read that stuff. I mean we would run, we would run tests at startups that I’ve worked at and that will go on name, just to see, like, how many people would click on the privacy policy before they move forward or the terms? And, you know, we made it very kind of visible, available, clear and conspicuous, but no one, no one clicks on them. No one reads them. I think point zero, 1% of people actually go through and actually read a little bit, and they’ll make those themselves known. They’ll send you a message saying, I saw this in your privacy policy, and I don’t know if it’s if that’s legal, but, but, but, yeah, I think so it’s more than just that. Like if you go come from the assumption that nobody is actually reading these things, yet you still want them to understand how you’re using their data. What do you do inside the product to make it very clear, and how do you also make it very clear that they are the controller of their own data? Right? In an ideal world, we as users of products can control what they use our data for, or we know exactly how they’re using our data, and we can opt out of using the product entirely if we don’t agree with it. And that’s, that’s all it is. Like there’s a lot of, I think it’s, I think there’s a lot more people in products now who understand it. I think four or five, seven years ago, it was a real struggle to work with PMS on this exact topic, because they felt as though, if they’re using our product, they’re giving us their data. That’s that. That’s how social media has been working forever. That’s and that’s, that’s the products that we all grew up like the team, you know, in my generation. In that has, that’s been building products for the last 10 years. We grew up using Facebook and Instagram and things like that, where we’re just, we’re like, it’s their data. It’s not our data, right? I mean, that’s not the reality, but that’s, that’s kind of how we felt for so long. So it’s walking that back, and it’s starting from, is privacy a fundamental, fundamental, right? Yes, okay, if so, how do we make it so that people actually have control over this? This, right?

Robert Hanna  15:24  

Yeah, no, really well articulated. And thanks for kind of going deep into that. It’s such an important point. And like you say, so many of those privacy policies don’t go don’t go red, you know? And I think it’s really important that we educate and people actually give them advice. So thanks for sharing that. Let’s talk about some of the most interesting cases, because there’s probably been quite a lot from over the year. What’s been the most interesting venture or startup you have advised if you can share? Yeah,

Brian Scherer  15:52  

I mean in terms of companies building innovative products in the view. I mean open door. I thought was the coolest thing when I when I started at open door, I was blown away by the size of the problem that they were trying to solve. I mean, they’re essentially trying to create a liquid market of homes. I mean, they’re there. You know, Carmax did it with cars right? They’re like, if you come to carmac, I don’t know if you’re familiar with Carmax. Are they in the UK?

Robert Hanna  16:23  

Tell Tell us more.

Brian Scherer  16:27  

Carmax is basically a company that allows you, as an owner of a vehicle, to just sell your car, basically, in a matter of, I don’t know, hours or minutes, you go online, you click a few buttons and you can, you can get a purchase price and sell your car. And, you know, on the flip side, they create a market, so you can go buy a car really easily. So they were like the original kind of online, you know, we’ll buy your car in seconds company and open door. Wanted to take that, that concept to homes, right? Buy buy and sell a home with a click. And when you think about it, I guess from a surface level, you’re like, why can’t you do that? Why? Why is buying a home so difficult? What makes it different than buying a car, than buying you know what, anything, buying something on Amazon. So they wanted to create that Amazon experience for homes. Obviously, it’s a massive challenge. There’s, there’s 50 different states in the US, and within those states, there’s, there’s even more kind of like local nuances. When you go from city to city, from one zoning, zoning realm to another. There’s different kind of like cultural aspects, or like business aspects, in terms of how title companies work, who pays for what and what in what locality, in terms of title fees and and escrow fees and things like that. So it’s like literally every single locality, not even just at a state level. It’s like on a very local metropolitan level. There’s so many nuances so that the headache wasn’t actually a technology, one the technology itself easy to build the operational overhead and the operational lift required to stand up something that was essentially a liquid market for homes. Was was over overwhelming, because they’re still solving it, but it’s massive. I think it was massively underestimated. Difficult that would be, but it also creates a massive moat for their business as they continue to grow. So it’s, I thought that challenge was probably the most interesting challenge that I was part

Robert Hanna  18:43  

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Brian Scherer  20:20  

Thank you, yeah. I mean, it’s definitely something I’m passionate about and have kind of fallen in love with after, after I created it. So when I was leaving my last in house role blend, I actually created essentially a marketplace for lawyers. So I got started building this thing because, I guess, to reference the quote, fall in love with the problem, not the solution. I think I fell in love with the solution when I started building I really wanted to build this, this like marketplace of legal talent. I had seen some, some people have success doing so, some companies in our industry, but I always felt like, you know, I could do it better, and that there was still a massive opportunity in servicing, kind of like the companies that I’ve been working with for the past, you know, eight to 10 years. Which are these startups, specifically early stage startups. What I realized, though, is that one, it’s a very difficult problem to solve. Two, I started to recognize the the incentives were such that you and when building a marketplace, you start to go towards customers that provide the highest lifetime value to you. And basically that causes you as a marketplace operator to migrate more towards larger companies, so not the smaller fish. Or, you know, if you wanted to migrate down towards the smaller fish, you ultimately would be working with high volume transactions which are less personal, it kind of starts to begin to feel very transactional. So I pivoted pretty quickly in like seeing that like my the roads ahead of me as they diverge, and I was like, I don’t want to go there. I don’t want to go there. What do I really want to build? Well, we had this great talent pool of lawyers who had joined this marketplace to get work, and I, I, like, fell in love with just the idea of building for them. So I basically turned this marketplace into a community overnight. And it’s been an epic experience. We have such because, because, like, one of the main things that I wanted to focus on was getting the best talent pool ever. All of a sudden, I switched to it, to a community, and I had this incredible group of lawyers who, honestly, I was lucky to get in the first place, who now were all helping each other launch their own independent practices and be legal freelancers or legal business owners, law firm owners, all that stuff. So it’s, it’s really become a labor of love and an extremely fun experience, and

Robert Hanna  23:09  

the testament of the power of community. You know, it’s, it’s so powerful. I speak to so many people in law firms, or lawyers over here in the UK, or generally, like, if you can build a really strong community like the results of that, it’s just going to be so fulfilling, intrinsically, like for yourself, like you’re mentioning there, but you know, the shared knowledge, and I guess that’s where I want to lead to next, in terms of, you know, what are some of the resources actually available to those who join this community? And could you tell us about any weekly events or things that take place. So again, people listening could potentially become part of HeyCounsels. I think it’s so important to get this knowledge

Brian Scherer  23:47  

shared. Yeah, yeah. So maybe I’ll take a step back and I’ll just tell you a little bit about the mission, because the mission kind of explains what we’re trying to do. I think, I think of HeyCounsel as creating basically the environment of a large law firm without the large law firm for the independent lawyer. So one of the advantages that you get when you’re part of a law firm is you can go knock on the door of the person next door and or in the office, or, you know, sitting in the cubicle next to you, and and ask them a question, any question, right? It could be, Hey, how you doing today? Or it could be, do you have this type of document or template, or have you seen this problem before? Or you know, what are you doing with your career? Like, what are your plans? All these things are, are important as you’re growing your own career, and, you know, working on a day to day basis. But independent lawyers don’t often have that community, especially now that we are all working in front of a computer, usually in our living rooms or offices, or lucky enough to have an office in our house. But yeah, it’s basically, it’s basically creating that environment and that support system for the independent, solo boutique. Lawyer. So the resources are much like the resources you’d find at a law firm, right? We have a large library of documents. We have, while we don’t provide a lot of the technology tools that lawyers use, we provide discounts so that people can get them at at steep discounts to what the rack rates are. We host events. So, you know, similar to law firm networking stuff, we host events. We host learning experiences, so lawyers can learn from each other, and most importantly, we allow and often push and facilitate lawyers collaborating together on projects. So if one client comes to a lawyer in the hate counsel community, and has a lot of work to do. Much of that work that one lawyer can’t handle, they can then work with a lawyer that they know inside the community, that has been vetted, that has been vetted by themselves, their peers, and they’ve seen interact with other lawyers. So there’s this big, great exchange, I call it of work, of knowledge, of just help that’s happening, and it’s happening organically, right? Like, it’s not something you can manufacture now. It’s, you know, it’s really starting to take off. And I’m starting to see just a lot of activity there,

Robert Hanna  26:19  

yeah, and it’s great. And there’s such an energy when you get that community together, isn’t there when you bring people and, like you say, just being able to tap someone on the shoulder could just be, you know, from a from a well being perspective, yeah. How you doing today? And having someone to talk back to you, maybe loneliness is one of the biggest factors that you know, particularly in sort of starting a business or being a solo practitioner, whatever it might be. So that sense of community is great. But then, like you say, in terms of actually helping one another when it comes helping one another, when it comes to, you know, things challenges, whatever it whatever’s going on. So looking forwards, then one thing I’ve learned from community, as well as you need to keep the community fulfilled, and so you can’t stand still, because, particularly if it’s valuable to the modern times, which is what really people want to be part of a community, it’s going to help them through their careers. Not now, but moving forward. What are some of the future plans you’ve got in mind for HeyCounsel? And you know, how’s that going to benefit current members and potentially future

Brian Scherer  27:10  

members? Yeah, so I’m doubling down on just quality of members and and quality of engagement. So from a community aspect, I’m both building fun little features to make it easy for people to interact. For example, when people need to send work to each other, you know, what does that what does that work flow look like, right? It’s not just, I’m sending a message to 300 people on Slack group. It should have structure to it. It should be delightful, and it should get the job done like very, very quickly. So it should ping the right people. Those people should see the opportunity, and they should be able to start collaborating that day. So it’s building like fun little features like that, but it’s also making sure that we have the right vetting process on the front door right making sure the right people are inside the community, and that when they enter the community that they’re really introduced to everybody, right? You don’t just like slide in the back door and watch everyone mingle, right? If, if you want to, that’s there, but I want to make sure people have a really strong onboarding experience, so that they immediately feel like they’re part of the party, and that they understand what’s going on. They understand all the benefits that hey Council brings. We’ve built a really cool platform. It’s It’s we use Slack for our community in terms of communication, but we’ve been so lucky in that we have a true I didn’t know what the term 10x engineer was, but I have one. And now I’m like, it’s like he honestly has been such a win win behind our sales, whatever that term is, he has pushed us into the an area that I didn’t think we would get to in terms of technology. So we were so lucky to have that, and we’re building cool new features every day on this platform that really makes it like a community network. That’s, that’s it both, not just, it’s not just a chat group, it’s not just a lobby. It’s, it’s, it’s, there’s a lot of infrastructure there too. But one thing that we are constantly thinking about is, what tools can we provide lawyers outside of the community to market themselves, to truly build a practice and a brand. And I would say, looking forward very, very soon, we’ll be launching some some really cool products that they can use outside of the community. So it’s a strategy I called inject the tech. So we’re injecting technology into the community and letting these lawyers kind of become super, super lawyers, so to speak. So, so that’s you’ll be seeing a lot more, I think, on that front in the next couple months.

Robert Hanna  29:50  

I love that inject the tech. And one of the words that I love, that you use, was delight. And you know, there’s a real difference between building an audience and building a community. And, you know. Anyone can kind of get a number of people together, but actually having an engaged community. And the fact that you are focusing on, what I see is the 1% you know, it’s very easy to build a community, to ignore them, but like you say, how can we make this workflow better? How can we make sure everyone gets a warm welcome, gets introductions to people, doesn’t feel lost, doesn’t feel like doesn’t get a sense of inclusion? And I think if you work on those one percents and tweak on them. And like you say, you’ve invested in areas where you can really build infrastructure so people feel part of a community and get value from a community that it’s only going to be successful. So I love what you’re doing, big fan of what you’re doing. That’s why we’re really keen to hold the conversation today. I guess, to go back to some sort of careers advice from from from your years in business, what advice would you give to those interested in pursuing a career as a lawyer, particularly specializing maybe in the world to FinTech and financial services. Yeah, it’s

Brian Scherer  30:46  

a good question. I try to think about the advice I would have liked to get before I even jumped into being a lawyer, and it probably would have been make sure you know you want to be a lawyer first, and I don’t know exactly how that manifests for everybody. I think some people are lucky enough to know exactly what they want to do when they’re starting out. And then some folks, and I put myself into the second category, kind of find their way haphazardly, but it all makes sense in the end. So maybe my advice is, if you’re part of one group one then just lean in and follow your passion like Absolutely there’s nothing that can substitute for the energy that you get from truly loving what you do. So if you already know what that is, just go. And if you don’t know what that is, don’t panic, because, because life has a funny way of showing you what, what you need to do. And I can’t. I cannot purport to know anything else about other people’s career, because I am the ultimate I don’t, I don’t love taking advice. I definitely listen, and then I just like, smile, and then I and then I just am like, Well, I’m gonna do it this way, and that’s probably, you know, to my own detriment. And I know that, but, but, you know, there’s so many different people out there, so many different passions, so many different stories and walks of life, that I always try to not give advice when I can, if that, if that, that’s the biggest not answer ever so but

Robert Hanna  32:25  

I love you talk about following your passions. I think it’s so, um, so true. You know, we’ve lived in the years of generations gone past who have been in careers that haven’t, haven’t been as fulfilled as they wanted because they hadn’t been brave enough to follow the passion. And I think now, with modern technology and resources available. If you have a passion, then, you know, go all in and you know, like you say, maybe if it doesn’t, you’re not quite there yet. You know, run your own race at your own pace. You know, non linear careers backwards. Sometimes go forward sideways, whatever it is that’s all good stuff. The main thing is just to keep going. And I think the power of community can definitely do that. So I guess, before we finish up, Brian, where can our listeners go to find out more about you or the Hey, council community, feel free to share any websites, any social media handles. We’ll also share them with this episode for you too. Awesome. Yeah, I

Brian Scherer  33:10  

would say, hey council.com it’s it’s the web page with all the information about our community. And if you are interested in talking more about it, you can reach out on LinkedIn. Brian share, pretty easy to find me. And then, yeah, I would say those two things. And hey, Council is one of these no risk type things. If you join, you don’t like it, you get a refund. It’s not an expensive monthly membership at all, compared to, I think what other kind of like legal communities or legal memberships are like? So come try it out. I know you’ll love it so and if you don’t, then no risk, no harm.

Robert Hanna  33:50  

Yeah, no. Thank you so much. Brian really enjoyed having on the show today. So from all of us on the legally speaking podcast sponsored by CLIA, wishing you lots of continued success with your career, and indeed, the HeyCounsel community. But from now, from all of us, over and out, thank you for listening to this week’s episode. If you like the content here, why not check out our world leading content and Collaboration Hub, the legally speaking club, over on Discord. Go to our website, www, dot, legally speaking podcast.com. For the link to join our community there over and out. Exciting news. Listeners, we’re pleased to announce another upcoming special mini series, legally on the move, careers, tech and insights from Dubai. In this exclusive series, we’re taking the podcast to Dubai, a city that’s redefining legal careers, leading in tech innovation and setting the stage for transformative global insights. Here’s a sneak peek of what’s coming your way. Career stories from top legal professionals thriving in Dubai’s unique legal market. The latest on AI blockchain and how legal tech is reshaping the future of law, thought provoking conversations on diverse. Leadership and building Global Connections. And here’s the best part, we’ll be recording in some of Dubai’s most iconic locations, capturing not just the insights, but some of the incredible energy of this vibrant city. So stay tuned and get ready for legally on the move. Trust us, you won’t want to miss this journey over and out.