What does it truly take to rise through the legal ranks while championing diversity and supporting transformative leadership?

This week, I’m joined by Leanne Wright, Partner in the private equity team at Osborne Clarke. Leanne shares her journey from high-street law to leading pivotal transactions, tackling gender dynamics in private equity and advocating for equality in the profession.

If you’re ready to be inspired by resilience, leadership and a human-centred approach to the law, this is an episode you don’t want to miss. Go give it a listen now!

So why should you be listening in? 

You can hear Rob and Leanne discussing:

• Building Trust and Adaptability
• The Importance of Helping Others
• Personal Adversity and Its Effect on Your Career
• The Role of Passion in Sustainable Growth and freedom
• Understanding Private Equity Transactions

Connect with Leanne here

Transcript

It’s about sustainable freedom.

00:02

I think there are loads of opportunities to demonstrate your value.

00:05

It’s entirely contingent on your ability to build trust with your client.

00:09

Everyone at the moment, particularly if you’re, if you’re trying to get into law or progress within law, feels like they suddenly have to be a crypto expert or an AI expert in order to progress.

00:19

Don’t worry about that.

00:20

You have to engage with it.

00:22

You’re not expected to be an expert in anything.

00:25

One of the best qualities of lawyers is that we know who to ask rather than knowing.

00:30

This is ourselves on today’s Legally Speaking podcast.

00:33

I’m delighted to be joined by Leanne Wright.

00:35

Leanne is a partner in the Private Equity team at Osborne Clark.

00:38

She focuses on advising founders and management teams on private equity transactions.

00:43

Leanne was previously an associate at Mishkan Derek, associate at Eversheds and solicitor at Geldart.

00:49

She was the chair and vice chair of the Junior Lawyers Division for the Law Society.

00:54

Leanne is an advocate for equality, diversity and inclusion in the legal profession.

00:58

She is also passionate about.

01:00

Supporting and promoting women founders as the world of work and business strives towards creating a better future for all of us.

01:07

So a very warm welcome to the show, Leanne.

01:11

Thank you, Rob, It’s a pleasure to be here.

01:13

Oh, it’s an absolute pleasure to have you on the show.

01:16

And before we dive into all your amazing experiences to date, we do have a customary ice break question here on the Legally Speaking podcast, which is on a scale of one to 1010 being very real, what would you rate the hit TV series Suits in terms of?

01:30

Reality of the law if you’ve seen it, Rob, I have seen every single episode of Suits.

01:37

Wow, so hugely entertaining show, but I’m going to give it a solid.

01:44

Two, whilst some of the characters are are certainly caricatures of people I’ve met during my career, I really struggle with the levels of dishonesty and manipulation demonstrated by the lawyers.

01:59

It’s not reflective of the vast majority of lawyers.

02:03

And also, I’ve never ever seen a company bought or sold through a single piece of paper.

02:10

Who knows it 100 yearstime, whether that may or may not be a thing.

02:13

But I think given that you have extensively watched the show, your two is justified and we can move very swiftly on to talk all about you.

02:21

So to begin with, Leanne, would you mind telling our listeners a bit about your background and career journey?

02:26

Of course.

02:26

So I am now a partner in the private equity team at Osborne Clark, but I’ve worked at 5 very different law firms.

02:37

Throughout my career, my my first ever career aspiration was Princess, but by the time I was about 9 or 10, I’d I’d pivoted away from that and committed to becoming a lawyer.

02:51

And by the time I was a teenager I was determined to be a big city corporate lawyer.

02:59

My plans did become derailed a bit while I was at university in London, alas.

03:06

Just to don’t worry, this isn’t going to turn into ATV.

03:11

Reality TV style sob story but but I do think it’s relevant to how I ended up here so I’m going to share it with you.

03:19

While I was at university I was trapped in an abusive relationship.

03:25

I was scared, I was lonely and for the first time in my entire life I was struggling academically.

03:33

I needed to go home so I got a training contract at a lovely High Street firm back in Lincolnshire where I’m.

03:41

From so I could move back in with my parents and be safe and supported while I came back to life.

03:49

I then got a newly qualified role at in a corporate team at a firm in Nottingham called Geldards and I actually transferred the last three months of my training contract to that firm.

04:02

After a while I was approached by Eversheds and spent a short time in their Nottingham office in their corporate team and then I moved back to London and spent a few years at Mishkan Derea.

04:15

I moved to Osborne Clark as a senior associate in May 20, 2118.

04:22

Months later I was promoted to associate director and just over a year after that I was promoted again to partner.

04:30

Incredible.

04:31

And if our listeners wanted to know why we were so keen to get Leanne on the show today, I think she’s very much justified that what a incredible career progression.

04:41

But you know, of course, there’s some some difficult adversities you’ve had to go through.

04:44

Start of your, your journey and we, we thank you for being professionally open and honest about that and authentic in, in what you share.

04:51

But let’s pick out some of the, the lessons along the way because as you said, you have worked in different law firms.

04:56

So can I take you back to your High Street law firm days, you know where you started.

05:00

Could you tell us about a bit about your time there and what was your experience like and what you felt you got equipped from there that helped you move forward?

05:08

Yes, I, it was, it was wonderful.

05:10

It was fantastic experience.

05:12

I, I obviously wasn’t.

05:14

Doing the law that I that I wanted to do, but one of the things you you do in a High Street firm is you really understand the breadth of knowledge required to be a great lawyer.

05:27

You are dealing with the man on the street that comes in with their second hand car dispute and their park home sale and their, you know, defamation case from what someone said on Facebook and and you’re serving the local.

05:44

And So what I really learned was how to be helpful even if you can’t help because you know, what you’re trying to do is, is give people warm feelings about the firm because they might come back, even if actually it’s not a goer from a business perspective.

06:05

And of course, what you’re doing as well is, is really understanding what commercial awareness is.

06:11

And it’s a massive buzzword for very junior lawyers, but.

06:14

You know, what I, what I was doing was helping my local community, but I was also vetting the clients for the firm, you know, to be really cynical about it.

06:23

What I was doing as, as the sort of free half hour for the local community is, is seeing whether or not, you know, can this person pay?

06:32

Do they have something they can actually instruct us on?

06:34

Is this whether or not we’re going, it’s going to be a big money maker?

06:39

Does it help strategically for the firm to be instructed?

06:43

And therefore should I?

06:44

This to a a proper lawyer to to actually look at or should I be as helpful as I can and respectfully, you know, send the person on their way feeling like they just had a bit of a bit of sensible advice and someone to listen to.

06:59

Yeah, I love that you talked about serving.

07:02

I always, you know, and I’ve been in the in the sales world and some people, you know, say that can be a bit of a dirty word.

07:07

And I think no, actually done professionally, sales is serving And, you know, similarly to like what you’re talking about from your your legal days and community.

07:14

It’s a lot of things.

07:14

Super passionate about here on on on the show and why we do this show is to try and inspire and inform those in and around the legal community.

07:21

But you’ve moved on and you know, you mentioned you’d move various firms.

07:26

I want to talk about some of the maybe obstacles you might have faced with with trying to move firms as you progressed.

07:31

Obviously now your your partner, Osborne Clark.

07:33

It’s fantastic, but everyone has a story and some maybe some challenges along the way.

07:37

So you know, what were some of the obstacles you maybe came across from maybe moving to lights that ever sheds Mishkan then ultimately Osborne.

07:45

Is there anything you can share from, from that perspective?

07:47

Well, I, I think, I think the first one was I’d never done a proper corporate deal and I was applying for a corporate newly qualified role.

07:57

And the way I did that was the, the, the High Street firm did, do you know, small corporate transactions, but I needed to pass a competency interview.

08:08

And in the days of actual physical corporate Bibles, I went in on the weekend.

08:15

And I read all of the corporate Bibles on the shelf of the, the one corporate lawyer in the firm and, you know, went in on a Monday morning with all of my questions so that I could, I could demonstrate.

08:29

And you don’t need a huge amount of knowledge to demonstrate passion, but you need some.

08:33

And I knew I wanted to do it.

08:35

So I guess that was the, the first one, the second.

08:40

Is when you move firms, you really appreciate the importance of internal goodwill.

08:47

Because every time you move business, it’s the biggest gamble, I think when you move firms is the, is the loss of internal goodwill.

08:55

And so each time you move, if you are going to move, I think you really need to, to have a plan for how you are going to build that up again.

09:04

And, and unfortunately, there’s no magic to it.

09:06

Sometimes that plan has to involve working harder than everyone else in the team to prove yourself.

09:11

And you should be, you should be prepared.

09:15

You should be prepared for that when you, when you, when you move and I think.

09:18

You know, sometimes people people underestimate that when they move firms and everything that is great about you is is forgotten.

09:28

That being said, moving firms is a really good opportunity to to build a new personal brand within that firm, particularly if you’re trying to sort of get promoted sideways.

09:43

You, you sort of automatically have a degree of credibility when you move in.

09:48

And so in that sense.

09:50

You know, in it’s easier sometimes if you get promoted sideways because you’re already a senior associate when you go in, for example, and you’re not someones former trainee.

10:03

Yeah, no really good lessons in there.

10:05

And I love going back to that sort of first move, you know, not necessarily having the the experience, but the passion and actually daring to try.

10:12

And you encourage people all the time, you know, passion, you know, if you’re really passionate about something and you just get in the room, then you’re giving yourself the opportunity.

10:20

But I love.

10:20

The fact that you just went for it and I think that’s a really good message in there because look where you are now.

10:25

And I guess let’s let’s Fast forward to today, you know, partner at Osborne Clark.

10:28

You know, I’m a big fan of the firm.

10:30

I’ve had the privilege of working with the firm over the years as well.

10:34

So you sit in the private equity team and we have listeners of all stages of the career starting out those very much, you know, at the last stages.

10:41

But can you take us back to maybe helping people out who may be less informed about the world of private equity?

10:47

What is it and what are some of the type of work you’re involved with?

10:50

Sure, so it it’s a fairly broad church, but.

10:56

Private equity is essentially the OR.

10:59

Private equity transactions are essentially the sale and purchase of businesses to a private investor.

11:08

The the prior and, and, and what I mean by that is we’re not sort of doing a, what we call a trade sale.

11:17

So where you get bought out by a competitor, those kind of mergers, we’re talking about somebody that invests in a company for three to five years, they’re trying to get three to five times return.

11:28

So what you’ve got is this sort of conveyor belt of, of M&A transactions.

11:34

People coming in and making money, helping to guide the business.

11:38

Helping to really push business growth.

11:42

That’s what private equity is.

11:45

And so all private equity transactional lawyers are, are corporate lawyers.

11:49

You start out as an M and a lawyer because there’s always a a sale and purchase in the course of the transaction.

11:58

Now most private equity lawyers have what we call a sponsor focused practise.

12:04

A sponsor is a private equity investor.

12:07

Most private equity lawyers have a sponsor focused pr actise or a mixed practise wherethey do a mix of acting for the sponsor.

12:15

On some transactions and acting for the management team, the people working in the business on others.

12:21

So the downside of doing a private equity transaction if you’re a founder is that you don’t get to run off into the sunset with all of your money.

12:29

You have to stay in the business and drive the growth.

12:32

Private equity investors don’t know how to run businesses.

12:36

They do know how to grow them.

12:37

So the management team is what the private equity investor is investing in.

12:43

I’m different to many other private equity lawyers because a few years ago I decided to only have a management focused private equity practise. I don’tact for my firm has a has a sponsor pract ise, but I don’t actany private equity houses.

13:00

I act for the CEO, the CFO, the the the the key leadership team of the business that is receiving investment.

13:10

Yeah, I think you articulated that fantastically.

13:13

So thank you for breaking that down for us.

13:16

So you’ve kind of explained it.

13:17

Let’s get into your world then.

13:19

What would you mind sharing what a typical day looks like for you as a partner?

13:23

And also how did you find that transition or the promotion from being sort of senior associate to to partner?

13:29

So the first one, a typical day, it’s a cliche, Rob, but there’s no such thing.

13:36

I think from from a work perspective.

13:40

I try and the first thing I do is find out what on earth happened overnight, because there’s always something.

13:49

The from a work perspective, what I’m trying to do is check in with my team, make sure that they know what they’re supposed to be doing, keep them updated.

13:58

I spend a lot of time because my clients are individuals rather than companies.

14:04

I don’t talk to general counsel, I talk to the CEO.

14:07

I spend a lot of time on the phone to my clients.

14:12

Continuing to build that relationship, continuing to build their trust.

14:16

Very rarely talking about law, mostly talking about what they’re worried about that day, which may or may not be related to the transaction, but it’s one of the reasons I do what I do.

14:31

I really admire people that run their own businesses.

14:34

I think they’re incredibly.

14:36

Brave and capable people, but I also think being a CEO is a really lonely job.

14:44

And when you’re doing a private equity transaction, you’re doing so much stakeholder management.

14:49

Sometimes you just need somebody you trust to talk to about that awkward board meeting you had or whatever.

14:55

So I spent a lot of my time doing that.

14:59

As a as a partner, there’s obviously the usual, there’s always internal relationship building to be doing.

15:06

There’s always internal.

15:10

Meetings and and management related stuff.

15:12

Lots of people related to stuff.

15:14

Lots of reflection about strategy and how I’m contributing to that.

15:18

Both have a sort of firm wide level, a team level, a people level.

15:23

Because one of the, one of the things I’ve noticed the most since becoming a partner is that there’s no immediate feedback loop as to whether or not you’ve had a good day.

15:34

You know when, when you’re a Fiona, you do your documents, you do your list of what people have told you to do and you put your hours down and you go, great, thank you very much Smashed it today.

15:44

When you’re a partner, because you, you’re one step removed from, from the detail a lot of the time.

15:50

And so much of what you do is in the longer term is about relationships.

15:56

You can have four conversations in a day that may or may not bear fruit in two years time.

16:02

But what you don’t have is I did a really great job today.

16:05

You have to give that.

16:07

You have to do that yourself and reflect and, and really think about it to decide whether or not you’ve, you’ve done well today.

16:13

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17:04

Back to the show, you have to be sort of your own biggest cheerleader, don’t you?

17:08

But one thing I’m I’m, I’m definitely gleaming from this discussion and it’s very evident why you’ve done so well throughout your career and are thriving is relationships matter to you.

17:17

So I always say contacts good, but relationships pay.

17:19

And you gave the examples of the CEO.

17:21

You know, you’re, you’re not the lawyer, you’re becoming a trusted advisor, you’re consulting, you know, you’re genuinely there.

17:27

You’re taking an interest, you’re trying to help them problem solve, you know.

17:31

Feel feel open and you know, willing to share important information with you.

17:35

And I think that only comes from fostering deep rooted genuine.

17:39

Professional working relationships and as you talk about sort of that internal goodwill and sort of really going a step further.

17:45

So I, I think if you’re listening to this take, take real sort of grit from the fact that, you know, relationships do pay and what Leanne’s done throughout her career and why she’s thriving is because they generally are really important to you.

17:58

And as a result of that, you’re seeing all the troops of, of, of fostering those relationships.

18:02

Let’s get into gender dynamics in private equity, something I know you, you’re quite keen to sort of share your views on.

18:09

What are the unique hurdles in your view for women in private equity law and how do internal initiatives at Osborne Clark address to pave these way for the way forward?

18:20

Yes.

18:20

So I do not want to dismiss the first of all, I don’t want to dismiss the struggles of women in other areas of law.

18:29

Rob in private equity, I think the unique challenges are.

18:35

First of all, there really are many fewer compared to some other areas of law the way you.

18:42

Build your practise and thebusiness development, the way the work comes in is unique.

18:48

A lot of the work comes from other advisers.

18:52

So not only do you struggle with the lack of diversity within your own profession, you’re also contingent on tax advisors, investment bankers, corporate finance houses.

19:02

And most of the time they’re they’re, they’re making the referrals and the introductions.

19:07

And so from a business development perspective.

19:11

You know, it, it’s really difficult to build those relationships.

19:15

It’s hard enough to do it with other lawyers that you have a bit in common with.

19:19

But but trying to trying to persuade an investment banker to to give you an opportunity to pitch is extremely difficult because their diversity starts, trust me, are much worse than ours.

19:32

And so I think, I think that’s really difficult.

19:35

And so it’s really, it’s really hard to to see how.

19:39

On Earth, am I ever going to build a practise?

19:42

To get to partnership when I’m so reliant on the old boys network.

19:48

And I think because of that, some of the really well meaning advice that you get to do that.

19:56

Doesn’t actually help you when you’re a woman and it’s sort of done from the lens of how the blokes have done it and well done.

20:05

Then it’s really hard for anybody to build their own client base and to and to build a business case for partnership.

20:12

But but there’s a pattern that you can follow if you’re if you’re a man that you can’t necessarily follow if you’re a woman.

20:22

Yeah.

20:22

Now and again, thank you for for sharing, you know, real life experiences and you know what you’ve seen as as well.

20:28

It’s only going to help hopefully push for change.

20:31

And, you know, we champion, you know, one of our missions is to make a kind of more collaborative, inclusive, innovative legal community.

20:38

I guess let’s switch now to technology.

20:40

We can’t really sort of, you know, ignore or bury our heads in the sand and and specifically sort of automation within the practise of .

20:46

lawYou know, tech is evolving.

20:48

We know that.

20:48

How do you envision robotics or automation shifting legal practises?

20:54

Especially in the field of your world as as as sort of nuanced as private equity.

20:59

I’m super excited, Rob.

21:01

I think the whole thing’s exciting.

21:04

Look, when I when I was a trainee, I became vice chair of the junior lawyers division of the Law Society.

21:12

And I got to meet with the Lord Chief Justice at that time and he told me solicitors were going to be replaced by robots.

21:19

And he told me that what you know, a decade ago and.

21:24

Here we still are and, and now I don’t have to go to a physical data room or read a physical Bible, which is wonderful.

21:32

And so I’m, I’m really excited.

21:33

I think Tech is a fantastic enabler.

21:37

I think that everybody needs to be engaging with what’s happening and, and, and actually that’s not limited to to tech.

21:44

Good lawyers know what’s going on in the world around them.

21:49

Our clients are using Stuff.

21:50

We’re using Stuff, Osborne Clark.

21:52

We have OCGPT.

21:56

And and varies, we have an OC solutions team that’s doing sort of that’s building software to help our clients do bolt on transactions and and therefore minimise some of the process and make doing lots of little corporate acquisitions cheaper.

22:13

It’s a massive, it’s a game changing enabler for our practise and.

22:20

I don’t think we should be afraid of that.

22:21

I think we should be excited by.

22:23

I’ve never thought that my value was in in drafting.

22:28

Old minutes.

22:29

You know, my value is that I help my clients sleep at night because I tell them what to worry about and what not to worry about.

22:37

And you know, and as we’ve already discussed, I, I helped them through that, that awkward conversation.

22:44

They need to have our clients.

22:48

They, they trust us.

22:49

They tell us their hopes and dreams.

22:52

They tell us their aspirations.

22:53

They tell us what they’re frightened of.

22:55

And I don’t think that.

22:58

A robot is ever going to replace that.

23:02

And so if I could spend less of my time doing the process and more of my time helping my clients sleep at night, I think that’s that’s a real win, I think for those that are sort of fearful and worried about it.

23:19

And I know that.

23:22

Everyone at the moment, particularly if you’re if you’re trying to get into law or progress within law, feels like they suddenly have to be a crypto expert or an AI expert in order to progress to demonstrate that they’re with the times.

23:35

You know, don’t worry about that.

23:37

You have to engage with it.

23:38

You’re not expected to be an expert in anything.

23:41

One of the best qualities of lawyers is that we, we know who to ask rather than knowing all the answers ourselves.

23:48

And it’s so true, isn’t it?

23:48

And that’s the power of a network.

23:50

And I, I talk a lot about that as well.

23:52

You know, who do you know who can help you with, with things in terms of getting that specific expertise, whatever it might be?

23:57

I think what you’re referring to, there is something that we, we really kind of double down on here on the show is, is having that human focus in the law, even though we’re going through a tech.

24:05

Evolution, which you know, I I welcome, you know, you know, hopefully it saves hours of time for people combined over years.

24:11

And actually there has knock on effects in terms of, you know, your well-being and, you know, not necessarily having to work quite so hard to to sort of redraft and do all these things, use these tools for better good.

24:20

But I think given your support for transformative business leaders, you know, you work with some really interesting clients, what challenges and opportunities do you see in maintaining a sort of human centred approach within the high stakes world of corporate law?

24:35

The opportunities are actually giving people a bit of relief from the tech and giving people that that sort of sense check that, that confirmation that that the decisions that they’re making are the right ones.

24:49

I think mostly, you know, we give people confidence that they’re making the right decision, particularly when you’re a transactional lawyer.

24:59

And so I think there are loads of opportunities to to demonstrate your value it it’s entirely contingent.

25:05

Your ability to build trust with your client opportunities wise, I’m really excited about the prospect of the billable hours model going.

25:16

I don’t look, I think, I think, I think it’s, it’s probably here to stay in some things.

25:20

But from a transaction perspective, I think that actually if we get rid of the billable hours model, then we it enables us to demonstrate our value to our clients.

25:34

Because.

25:38

An hour of my time has never been what I’ve given.

25:41

You know it’s you don’t.

25:42

You’re not paying for an hour of my time.

25:44

You’re paying for every conversation I’ve ever had with the CEO.

25:48

When you talk to me, you know you’re paying for the years of training.

25:51

You’re paying for all the personal development.

25:53

You’re paying for how much time I’ve invested in my management of people within my team so that they are effective.

26:02

At at doing their job and.

26:04

We stop focusing on what an hour of our time is worth.

26:10

Then we can move to a value based pricing model for transactions rather than a time based 1.

26:16

And so I’m super excited about that because our value is in us as humans, not in the time we spend on documents.

26:24

Absolutely.

26:25

And price is what you pay, value is what you get.

26:27

And we should probably give a shout out to Sean Jardine, who has also been on the Speaking podcast, who advocates very strongly for value based pricing and has some great content if you want to look more into.

26:38

That he’s very much an expert around that.

26:39

And you know, I, I agree, I think moving to that model is, is only a good thing for, for lawyers and for for clients and will help with transparency and so much more.

26:49

Let’s talk more about equality, diversity and inclusion.

26:53

So I know it is something you are, you are passionate about and you advocate for within the legal profession, but if you could change one thing about the legal industry to make it more inclusive, what would it be and why?

27:05

I think there’s a lot of.

27:07

Virtue signalling.

27:09

And I think there’s a lot of people being afraid to be honest about challenges and to be honest about their own experience and to confront themselves in terms of their part in not being inclusive.

27:30

And I think that the conversation about diversity, equity and inclusion.

27:38

Has has become diluted by nice words.

27:44

Rather than the kindness of being really frank about people’s experiences and the challenges and we’re we’re watering down the message by by signalling left, right and centre to how much everyone cares.

28:01

And people do care.

28:02

Actually people care a lot more than than they think.

28:05

But it it comes across as inauthentic.

28:08

When there are so many nice words about it that people are failing to face the the harsh reality.

28:17

And and what happens there is that you end up with first.

28:21

The first possible outcome is people put their fingers in their ears and they feel helpless and they feel like they can’t do anything about it.

28:29

So what’s the point?

28:30

And we need to despair.

28:32

And the other outcome is that people get so ranty and angry.

28:37

About things that they, they can’t hear anything else.

28:41

One thing I, I, I really, I have found really powerful is reverse mentoring.

28:48

So Osborne Clark has a reverse mentoring programme.

28:52

And as soon it was the first thing I did, well, I was really excited when I became a partner.

28:57

I could do the reverse mentoring and be mentored by, by somebody.

29:01

And you know, I’ve done a, I’ve done a great deal of work in, in trying to, to help women.

29:08

In the legal profession and and my clients, but it’s been pointed out to me that feminism was actually a white middle class movement.

29:19

And we’ve sort of got to our point where gender seems to be the the gateway drug to diversity.

29:27

But what that’s led to is this weird diversity hierarchy.

29:33

That’s unwritten that everyone seems to feel.

29:35

And so I was really keen that when I talk about women, I didn’t mean women like me, I didn’t mean white women.

29:44

And so I, I, I joined the reverse mentoring programme and I have been mentored by a junior woman of colour in my firm about her experiences.

29:55

And it was unbelievably powerful that the patience that she demonstrated with me whilst this clumsy white woman tries to ask all of her questions in a way that isn’t racist.

30:08

And it was really powerful and it was really amazing and.

30:12

I think that.

30:15

Everybody in a position of seniority should do something like that.

30:20

That’s a long answer, Rob.

30:21

I apologise.

30:23

Not at all.

30:23

It was an important answer.

30:25

It was thought out and you know, that’s why we’re bringing leaders of the profession like yourself on to, to share your thoughts, share your, you know, solutions.

30:33

I’m a big advocate for reverse mentoring.

30:35

I think it’s fantastic.

30:36

I always talk about having your 360 board of directors, someone ahead of you, some on the same level of view, someone beneath you and getting a real view.

30:44

Of, of life.

30:44

So no, very, very grateful for your well measured response.

30:48

Like to switch up a little bit and talk about your trustee work of the Sophie Hayes Foundation.

30:54

So you are, as I say, a trustee there, a charity that supports women survivors of modern slavery.

31:00

Could you tell us more about the foundation and your role within it?

31:04

Yes, so I’ve actually, I’ve recently stepped down from that role.

31:08

I I because I, I timed out.

31:10

One of the first things I did was I I changed the constitutional documents.

31:15

So that trustees had to step down after a certain period.

31:21

Because particularly with voluntary roles, it’s a principle of good governance that you need to recycle your leadership.

31:29

And so it was really important that you continue to get new trustees and and fresh ideas rather than people sitting on it until the end of time, which is it’s just not good governance to not to do that.

31:42

So I.

31:44

Forced myself out by changing the constitutional documents and my my time, my time came to an end.

31:52

I, I joined.

31:53

I care really passionately about the cause.

31:57

The cynic if the cynical answer is I, I joined.

32:02

As a trustee because I wanted board experience both to help my own career, my own leadership skills and also to understand my clients that are.

32:13

Because I’ve never sat on a board and.

32:17

So I was trying to pick somewhere where I could make a real difference at a strategic level.

32:24

You know, I was never going to do the bake sale to raise money and, and, and stuff, but I wanted to join somewhere where they really needed me.

32:31

And they they really needed a lawyer on the board just to give them that a bit of perspective.

32:37

Tell them when they need legal advice.

32:38

Tell them most importantly, when they don’t need legal advice.

32:43

Which sometimes as a lawyer is the best advice you can give.

32:46

And it was really amazing the the charity supports women survivors of human trafficking that have been trafficked to or within the UK.

32:57

There are hundreds of women as we speak living in safe houses and you don’t get a great deal of of government support.

33:04

So the whole concept of the charity is that.

33:08

It’s about sustainable freedom, about shaping the moon.

33:12

Destiny and it was about.

33:18

Giving these women the tools to build a career, to build a sustainable independent life so that they don’t end up back in the cycle of trafficking and and and forced labour, so that they can build their own lives, have that sort of self determinism.

33:38

And and really take control and giving them the skills that they need in order to do that.

33:44

Yeah, it’s an incredible role.

33:45

I mean, you’ve just done so many amazing things and thank you again for sharing your your outlook on that as well from a personal and professional development perspective.

33:53

I just want to ask before we look to wrap up, you mentioned briefly whether the chair and Vice Chair of the Junior Lawyers division, you know, tell us about what any of those experiences influence your perspective as a leader in the legal field today or anything you would share from your time there that was beneficial?

34:08

Yeah, absolutely.

34:11

The.

34:13

I really, I really care about being a lawyer and really care about the the profession.

34:18

And so I did it because I wanted to engage with my profession.

34:24

It really it, you talk to a lot of lawyers in different firms in different organisations, including in house and you really get a steer of what’s good and what isn’t good.

34:35

The more lawyers you talk to, the more frank conversations you have.

34:40

You you really get a bit of perspective in terms of.

34:44

Of what’s going on in the profession, other people’s experiences.

34:48

It’s very, it’s very easy sometimes because being a lawyer is such a difficult job sometimes it’s very easy to go.

34:55

Is that, is that everywhere or is that just here?

35:00

Is that me or is that, is that everything else?

35:04

And so, you know, talking to other lawyers really gives you kind of that perspective.

35:09

I was also there at a really interesting time just as the SRA were starting.

35:14

To mute the idea of the SQA and, and the first proposal was was rubbish frankly.

35:22

And so I actually had to do AI did a public debate with the chair of education and training at the SRA about the SQE proposal as as it was then, it’s much better now.

35:35

It’s much better system now, but you know a huge number of stakeholders.

35:40

Campaigned against and around that.

35:43

So I think it was a, it was a really, a really good thing to do and, and I would actually encourage, I know, I know when you’re, when you’re trying to build your career, talking to other lawyers feels like a bit of a waste of time because they’re never going to give you work.

35:57

Actually, I do get work from other lawyers and and also having being engaged and understanding what’s going on in your profession, I think it’s really important so.

36:09

No, you don’t have to, you know, be really active within the Law Society, but but do talk to other lawyers.

36:16

Yeah, absolutely.

36:17

And you know, you’re a fantastic networker.

36:19

I’ve talked about your, the value of the relationships that you you pride yourself on and I think has been key to your success or one of the keys for for sure.

36:26

Our last question before we wrap up, what advice would you give for aspiring lawyers where we are today who who want to sort of, you know, mirror what you’ve been able to do in terms of fast track career progression, get involved with all these things, have amazing clients, you know, go back to sort of at the start of your journey.

36:43

What advice would you give to those entering profession today that would help them?

36:46

Or set them in good stead.

36:48

Sure.

36:48

I think firstly if you can’t see positive role models.

36:55

Know that you can learn just as much from negative ones.

36:58

If there are people that you don’t want to be like and people that aren’t like you, you can still learn from them.

37:07

So instead of dismissing them as as not relevant or or sometimes just thinking they’re a bad person, figure out what it is about their behaviour.

37:17

Makes you feel a particular way about them that makes them relatable or not relatable to you and how you might act in their shoes.

37:27

The second thing is.

37:30

We’ve already talked about it, Rob, but relationships and be really careful about all of your relationships, personal and professional.

37:41

Curate them often and ensure that your relationships are are Co elevating.

37:48

There’s nothing wrong with kind of in your own mind going thank you.

37:53

I wish you well on your journey and and getting rid of your some of your relationships because they you know, they’re they’re no longer where they they need to be.

38:03

I think that, you know, we go right back to the beginning about passion.

38:08

Be be authentically passionate.

38:13

I, you know, when I’m, when I’m looking at applications for people who want to work at Osborne Clark.

38:19

Don’t.

38:20

Don’t pretend to care about something you don’t do.

38:23

Tell me about the mad thing that you do care about.

38:27

Because I am desperate to work with the person that’s enthusiastic about the history of how paper is created.

38:36

I want to work with that person.

38:37

I don’t want to work with the person that’s indifferent and apathetic and doesn’t act like they care.

38:45

So do care about things and the final one and you know, very closely linked to my own story, but really important to me.

38:54

If you choose to share your life with someone, make it someone who helps you maintain perspective through their patience and kindness.

39:05

Because sometimes the world will not end if you pause to have dinner with your loved ones and someone who understands that yes, they do come first overall, but sometimes in the moment, they can’t.

39:21

Yeah, I think powerful, powerful words and and so, so true.

39:24

And again, thank you for really strong reflections there.

39:27

I think the one thing you say about sort of, you know.

39:30

Role models and maybe some of the negatives of those roles.

39:32

It’s so true, isn’t it?

39:33

You know, it’s like, you know, success doesn’t really teach you a lot of the failings.

39:36

And I think along the way, like you say, if you see those, it’s like, OK, well, I would definitely approach this differently.

39:41

So I, I really like that insight.

39:43

So thanks for, for sharing that.

39:44

This has been an absolute master class.

39:46

Now I’ve really enjoyed learning about your, your story, everything you’ve been sharing, everything you’re doing.

39:51

Thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed it.

39:53

And I’m sure our listeners will too.

39:56

So if those want to know more about you, your career or indeed Osborne Clark, where can they go to find out more?

40:01

Feel free to share any websites or any social media handles.

40:03

We’ll also include them in this episode for you too.

40:07

So you can Google Osborne Clark.

40:09

You’ll also notice our role on our role on Friday score is pretty high.

40:15

The me I, I am on X, but I use it mostly for complaining and since the algorithm has has changed due to the the change of hands, I find it quite negative.

40:28

I do check LinkedIn every single day.

40:30

So that’s the best place to find me and talk to me.

40:34

There we go folks.

40:35

Well, it just needs me to say thanks.

40:36

Much once again, Leanne, it’s been an absolute pleasure having you on the show.

40:39

So from all of us on the Leavey Speak podcast sponsored by Clio, wishing you lots of continued success with your phenomenal career and future pursuits.

40:46

But for now, over and out, thank you for listening to this weeks episode.

40:51

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40:57

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41:03

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41:05

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41:06

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41:10

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41:15

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41:23

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41:29

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41:32

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41:35

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