Learn more about the importance of accessible education and diverse representation in the legal sector. Salma Maqsood joined me in this exciting episode to discuss her experiences of entering law.  

So why should you be listening in?  

You can hear Rob and Salma discussing:  

• Social mobility 

• Financial inacessibility  

• The importance of diverse boards  

• Accessible entry-level roles 

• Effective EDI initiatives  

Transcript

Robert Hanna 00:01 

Welcome to the legally speaking podcast. I’m your host Rob Hanna. This week I’m delighted to be joined by the wonderful Salma Maqsood. Salma is a commercial property partner at Thrings. She has nearly two decades of experience in residential development. Sama is the junior vice president of Bristol’s Law Society, a social mobility ambassador for the Law Society and founding board member of the ethnics Lister southwest network. Salma is passionate about advancing social mobility and supporting the future lawyers from non traditional backgrounds to achieve their ambitions within the legal professions. So a very big warm welcome Salma. 

Salma Maqsood 00:38 

Thank you, Rob, thank you so much for having me out. 

Robert Hanna 00:40 

It’s an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. And before we dive into all your amazing projects, experiences to date, we do have a customer icebreaker question here on the legally speaking podcast, which is on a scale of one to 1010 being very real, what would you rate the hit TV series suits intelligence reality of the law, if you’ve seen it? 

Salma Maqsood 01:00 

Okay, so six, I wish it were real, and then I’d rate it a 10. It’s not reality is just not like that, unfortunately, I properly rated. Trying to be kind here, maybe two or three, how it compares with really being a lawyer. 

Robert Hanna 01:24 

And with that, given the jest that goes with it, we’re gonna move swiftly on, I think you’ve justified your two or three. So would you mind by starting kicking off telling our listeners a bit about your background and career journey? 

Salma Maqsood 01:36 

Of course. So I was born and bred in Bristol, I’m the eldest of six siblings. My parents, I know, that’s a lot of fun and games growing up. My parents were originally from Pakistan, and my dad worked away quite a lot. He used to work for a BT as a telecoms engineer. My mom had limited English. So from quite an early age, being the eldest, I kind of helped my mom like navigate the schools, medical appointments, and just generally kind of like life and kind of be a translator between her and Well, everybody else at the beginning. So and as we were just growing up in Bristol, I mean, you know, this is going back many years, quite a interesting town, I guess, or city, I should say, now, to grow up in, it was pretty clear, just kind of like, right from the very beginning, that just being from a different background or an ethnicity, that this was actually going to be a bit of a problem for us. Even, you know, from a very young age, I kind of picked this up. And it’s actually because of those challenges that we were facing just as a family as part of the community that I decided to study law. Actually, it was one of the reasons that I decided to study law. I was lucky enough to get through school, and I studied a level law. And then I went on to university because I found that I quite enjoyed that a level law. And, you know, it was, it was an interesting and a really good kind of a learning experience and an introduction into law, or went on to university, which was actually quite a big thing for me back in those times. Because the social norms in those times it was that people from the South Asian or women, shall I say, from a South Asian community at that kind of age, girls would complete that a law wasn’t it go on and get married. But despite these expectations, I was really lucky. And I always think back and think about how lucky I was because my father, he was just great. He has always given me this kind of unwavering support. I’d kind of been an ally throughout my life to me, and he was like, No, you know, just because as expected, you know, to get married, you don’t have to get married, you really enjoyed the law, you want to go out and study law, then, you know, I’ll support you, I’ll stand by you, which was amazing. So I studied at the University of West of England and then I went on to do my LPC. I was quite interesting because I think when I went on to do my LPC is that that’s when I realized that lots of people already had training contracts. And they were paid for training contracts by like law firms. And I didn’t know about this, I didn’t even know this was a thing, basically. So I kind of was a bit like, how did you get training contracts? And that’s when I found out that actually, lots of people had applied beforehand for training contracts, and they were now having that LPC paid for and I was just like, oh my god, wow, I really, really missed out on this. But you know, we were where we were. After my LPC. I basically then spent several years looking for training contracts. And I say several years because it really was, I sent out, I sent out hundreds of training, training contract applications. And then I kind of got to a point after a few years, I was like it’s just not going to happen for me. It’s just not going to happen. So I had kind of almost got to the point where I was just gonna give up actually. And then a friend of mine rang me from London and basically said there’s a training contract going on my firm but you have to come and work as a paralegal first. And then you can go on and do your and then you’ll be offered a training contract after that. So I moved from Bristol to London to go and do this training contract. I mean, one of the reasons really, it was because my parents and my family had supported me so much through my degree, and then through my LPC. And then, you know, even when I even when I was done looking for training contracts, they were like, it’s gonna happen, it’s gonna happen, don’t worry, just kind of hang in there. So it got to a point where we’d expended so much money, that I didn’t really have a choice that was just like, you know, this is the kind of final hurdle. So I went over to London. And, you know, salary wasn’t a lot back in those days, you didn’t have this minimum that you had to pay, you know, trainees or anything like that. So went off to London, and my brother, I’m in my family, basically, they actually financially supported me, they kind of like subbed me while I was there, like my brother paid for my accommodation. And my father would help out, you know, money wise and stuff. So I could actually, like, survive financially in my training contract, which I did, it was hard. It was a it was on my first day, you know, he said, to me, it’s like bootcamp, it definitely was like boot camp. It was really hard. It was really long hours. And we do hope people don’t have to go through this anymore, I just want to say, but it didn’t make me the lawyer that I am today. And I qualified, through Yeah, many years later, I finally qualified, I was expecting my first child at this time. I thought my plan my mind was, I’m going to qualify, I’m gonna get a magic circle firm in London, I’m going to bring in loads of money, you know, and be able to help my family and kind of like paying them back. Not that they expect payment back. But you know, for all this love and support over the years. But yeah, there were other plans. And I’d wanted to be a property lawyer. And I couldn’t, because they all coincided with the property market crashing. And I didn’t attend my admission ceremony either, because I was broke, that didn’t want to rock up with my. But on that note, I am told now that you can attend your admission ceremony at any point. So it is on my list of things to do is I’m going to go back and do that. Yeah. And then I qualified basically. 

Robert Hanna 07:24 

Quite the long journey there. And thank you for sharing your your personal sort of, you know, rationale for why law and some of the challenges because we’ll come on to talk about the work you’re doing to correct the legal industry. And it’s great work, and we fully support that. But let’s fast forward then to today, because you qualified, you know, it took a lot of hard energy, effort, etc, to qualify. But for those that are less familiar, can you tell us a little bit more about the area of law that you specialize in today, and, you know, maybe some interesting cases that you’ve handled? 

Salma Maqsood 07:55 

So, okay, so I work in the commercial property sector, which is actually quite a, it’s quite a wide, covers quite a lot. But essentially, it’s, it’s, how do I put this, this is the legal kind of side of owning property, leasing it, buying it, selling it, and developing commercial land or buildings. And myself, I kind of like I focus on the developing land and building side of it. Interesting cases that I’ve handled to date. I suspect that interesting for me is not the same as interesting for everybody else. But personally, because the kind of work I do a lot is a lot, a lot of it, especially the last couple of years, it’s been with developers around Bristol. So it’s about getting involved with the legal side of it, helping them look at the ownership of the land, kind of help review reports, etc. Is this line going to be suitable for the development they’re proposing? Is it going to be safe? Is the land for example contaminated? And if it is, how do we, you know, fix this. And then kind of helping out on the lending side from the bank helping all the financial documents, which can be quite comprehensive as well, and kind of just kind of guide him or that process for the debate, guiding the developer to the process through the legal side of acquiring the land. And then once they’ve acquired the land, we can also help with planning etc. And any kind of issues at that point, the developer would then go away, build the land. And then if it’s built into residential plots, for example, then we can assist with then sell them off those plots. It’s kind of taking it all the way through. For me, it’s so interesting going back to that of the last couple of years, because a lot of the work has been in and around Bristol. I quite a quite like just more Much to my children’s dismay. We’re driving around Bristol. I’ve kind of take almost like a sense of pride where I’ve been involved in the legals as a part of The you know, just kind of like showing having been a part of that changing landscape. No point oh, I was involved in that development. Oh, I helped with this. In particular, there’s a there’s a large development is over 50 homes just outside of Bristol, some of and some of it has been converted into Office units, which is currently quite, it’s really quite aesthetically pleasing. It’s quite nice. You’ve got lovely landscaping, the developers thought about play areas for people and, you know, you move into that little development. And important enough some of it, which is a requirement, some of it has been allocated as affordable housing as well. So to help you know, people well, to help people to kind of get on the market. And also to, well as in social housing, as well, to help provide homes for people. So yeah, I find all of that interesting. Not as interesting as criminal law perhaps. But for me, if that’s what, that’s what gets me go, that’s what that’s what I like. 

Robert Hanna 10:58 

We like people who are passionate about what they do. And we can just hear the passion coming through your voice in terms of you know, the area of law that you specialize in. And I love the fact that you’re kind of taking your family around and telling them mom did good mom did this man did that. I love that. I love that it’s really, really good. Okay, let’s talk about your recent ish move to two things as a commercial property partner, would you mind telling us a bit about what your role involves there? And how has your role changed from sort of associate days to sort of being a partner role. 

Salma Maqsood 11:27 

Being an associate is very different, I think to being a partner. So when you’re an associate, there’s a lot of focus on kind of billing, billing clients, bringing in clients and kind of like hitting targets, I think it’s a lot, it’s a lot more focus on on that kind of like entry, kind of area into law. When you kind of move into heading up a department or, you know, being a partner, your focus changes a little bit because it becomes a bit more strategic. So is this a question that you’re asking? I’m just checking. 

Robert Hanna 11:59 

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. To know more about that strategic sites, it’s good to make that differentiation isn’t in between the terms of, you know, associate where you are doing that sort of like, say, the billing, you’re doing that sort of day to day work, and then you kind of make that step up to partner where there is probably more of a strategic overview. So yeah, go for it.  

Salma Maqsood 12:14 

Yeah, so it’s like bring up you know, making the strategic kind of decisions think having that vision as to where you want the team to be, say, in like, a five year goal, perhaps. And then I kind of like to think of a 12 month goal as well. You know, where I want the team to go, what the future of the team’s going to look like any kind of areas that perhaps you want more training in any kind of areas where we might want to expand over the next couple of years. What kind of, you know, what kind of clients do we want to bring into the firm? Are we looking after the clients that we currently have, to the best of our ability are there areas where we can do better in and does it align does it align with the overall kind of plan and the direction that the firm is going in so a lot of it is quite, it’s a lot of it, it’s like strategic decisions, but then kind of day to day, you have all the business development that you do, but making sure that again, you’re you’re going out and speaking because I mean, I think the most important thing really is actually to keep the clients that you have happy and make sure that you’re offering them the best kind of service that you that you can and then obviously you know, if we if we have the the resources and the team then you can go out and bring in more clients and work for them and give them a good service. So yeah, I guess the the role has changed because my focus was purely billing hitting my targets, making sure that I’m you know, and and as an associate learning and training a lot more because when you’re an associate there’s so much that you don’t know I’m not that I know everything right now either. I don’t think anyone’s expected to know everything, but there’s a lot more there whereas as you kind of move over to the partner side of things, it’s almost like a different side that brings like more development and change with it. 

Robert Hanna 14:06 

Did you know it’s great and I’m just thinking in my head it you know, a lot of the associate role is working in the business and a lot of department roles working on the business you know, you talked a lot about their you know, going out business development, growing the business you’re looking at all these other different things from a strategic point of view and I think that’s a good clear differentiator in terms of as you rise up and seniority you need to be thinking more commercially more as a business owner if you like in terms of like the growth the future of the firm. And you know, I also like that you kind of referenced some retaining clients you know, so many people are transfixed on new business new business of course, it’s always lovely to have new business but what’s the best client the one you already have, you know, and actually maybe getting more business more referrals out of them, offering them a hyper enhanced service so they really trust you want to refer you want to give you more business, etc, etc. So thank you for for sharing that. I want to Swift sort of switch it up a little bit and talk about a topic that we’re passionate about here on the league. He’s been podcast and a lot of episodes in around it. And I know you are to and do some tremendous work and being recognized rightly so within the profession for it, but a high level to start, what is your current opinion of the state of diversity and inclusion within the legal profession? 

Salma Maqsood 15:18 

So, I mean, it’s a tricky question. It’s a tricky question to answer sometimes just because of the different hats that I wear. So for me, I mean, let’s face it, I mean, historically, as you know, legal sector is been perceived as elitist for years, it’s been in exclusive and obviously, it’s going to take a lot of time, I think, to change this. I mean, you know, kind of put things into perspective, it’s only been 100 years since women are allowed to even join the profession. So and that’s, and that’s just starting off with gender equality, let alone all the other characteristics that come into it as well. So we’ve got like, a long, long way to go. So in a very short answer my opinion on the currency of diversity, it’s not, it’s not great. But the good thing about where we are right now is there’s a lot more conversations happening, a lot more initiative and a lot more interest in, in trying to shape that it goes that this changes on that we get better at diversifying the profession, hopefully, you know, quicker than what hasn’t moved in the last 100 years. 

Robert Hanna 16:23 

Yeah. And we’ve had Dana, Denise Smith, come on the show who’s obviously, you know, created the next 100 years of women in law and does some incredible things as well. I know, another topic you’re passionate about as an extension of this is social mobility. So what is your definition of social mobility? And what do you see as the main barriers to social mobility within the legal profession, specifically?  

Salma Maqsood 16:48 

To me, social mobility is, it starts off with where your starting point is, as an individual, and then where you kind of end up? I’m sure that’s not the technical definition. But that’s how I look at it. And as for the, as for the main kind of barriers to social mobility within the legal profession, say, I mean, you know, I think one of the, one of the one of the most significant ones is actually financial barriers, it’s just the cost is the cost of education. And I know that there are changes being made. Now. I mean, you know, the S QE has been introduced, and there’s different, you know, different kind of, like, routes into, into law. But I mean, I know is like, just kind of from past experience that, for me, one of my biggest barriers, it was it was money. The cost of the LPC for example, back in those days, and I think it’s when you when you when you’re coming from, you know, like myself in a lower socio economic backdrop background, that money is a big deal. It’s like, oh, well, how am I going to become a lawyer if I can’t even pay for my education, and I know, there’s loans out there. But there’s also thinking that what, you know, people don’t want to, some people don’t want to take out a loan, and then have to pay it back afterwards. So I think this is the this is definitely like a huge barrier. I also think it’s, it’s his perception as well. So, again, you know, I often speak to people and myself as well, you know, I remember when I wanted to study law, and you know, you, you’re kind of like almost told in the nicest possible way, if there’s a nice way to say that, it’s that, you know, people like you don’t Don’t, don’t get into the law, you know, they don’t look like you lawyers don’t look like you. So I think that, you know, quite often people have a perception, even from a very young age, they’re not looking at, they’re not looking at us at law as a as a profession. Because depending on what school you go to, or what college to go to, or even, you know, where you might go to university, those options might not even be put in front of you. So I think that’s also an issue. And then obviously, you know, say you do decide to go into law, there’s that difficulty in securing vacation schemes, internships, things like that. I mean, for myself, again, I talked myself, but I think this is, you know, having spoken to other people as well, like, it all comes from kind of networking, because sometimes depending on your socioeconomic background, you don’t, a you might not know about how to go out and network and secure these kind of vacation schemes or, or where to go for this help. And be, you know, well, when you when you do go out and network. I mean, it’s all that kind of like, how do I present myself? How do I talk to people and we’re gonna be okay, that whole imposter syndrome comes in as well. So I think there’s like a lot of challenges. Because when were these options aren’t in front of you when the information isn’t there and where the guidance isn’t there. Because, you know, sometimes the guidance and information isn’t there from the beginning. You don’t you don’t immediately think that you’re going to go into a profession such as law is not something that’s that’s talked about, enough. I mean, I don’t think no. 

Robert Hanna 19:55 

And again, it’s great that we’re having the conversation and it’s also thanks for sharing the the challenges and the barriers, and I guess one thing we tried to focus on is not just the problem on the show, but also sort of think about looking forwards and solutions and what people are working on. So I guess it’s an extension of that, how can law firms legal institutions better support individuals from underrepresented backgrounds, in overcoming some of the barriers that you’ve just mentioned? 

Salma Maqsood 20:22 

I think some of this is about just kind of partnering, partnering with maybe local schools, and universities and colleges, because I think I’ve seen that if rare law firms are partnering, partnering with local schools, and universities and colleges, and they’re going in, and they’re building that kind of connection between the firm and the candidate and potential candidates as well. And it works two ways, because I think for So for somebody out of school, if you have lawyers come in, and they talk to you, and they present this, you know, wonderful opportunity to have a career which you might be interested in, you might want to go into, then your mind has already open to the possibility that okay, you know, this law firm has coming up to my school, you know, and they, they felt it important enough to come in and speak to us. And this is clearly a, a profession that we can consider. And then from the schools from the from the from the firm’s perspective, they’re also kind of like almost creating a pipeline of future talent, I want to say, in an ideal world, and it’s the same again, with colleges and universities. And I think, yeah, I think outreach work like that will partner with local schools, I think, is actually quite a good way. Obviously, when I say schools, I mean, you know, the focus on schools, in areas where and in areas where, you know, in areas with low socio economic backgrounds, basically. I also think, I think law firms have this, again, people have a perception of what law firms actually like. And they can often come across as quite cold and uninviting. And not a place where somebody from an underrepresented background is going to feel welcome, or they’re not going to feel happy, I guess. So I think it’s important that law firms also work on kind of like attracting talent by making their firms more inviting by having an app or fostering like an inclusive kind of atmosphere. And by targeting groups, like specified underrepresented related groups as well, when it comes to recruitment, when it comes to vacation schemes, you know, perhaps one have ones that are targeted to those groups to make sure that people find people that are giving everybody an opportunity. 

Robert Hanna 22:50 

I love that you give some really good examples and practical tactical things that we can we can do and nothing that you said there is overly hard, right, we just need to take the action people need to go in and and implement it, it takes these thought leaders, these changemakers like yourself to, you know, start the conversation drive these initiatives. And, you know, we thank you for that. And I think, you know, we will eventually get there. If we all come to together, one of the things you’re talking about there is obviously inclusivity, which is so important that the number of studies about, you know, the leadership of law firms and what that looks like, at the top and, you know, perhaps the need for change, and what strategies can law firms to adopt to ensure leadership roles we’ve talked about the entry levels are accessible to individuals from from all backgrounds. 

Salma Maqsood 23:35 

So when, uh, one of the things that I think would be really helpful, and I know some firms already do this is internal internal kind of leadership programs, where almost like, I guess, I want to say, graduate schemes, but where, you know, somebody comes in, and, you know, you know, from whence they’ve got, you know, they come in as practices as a lawyer, or it’s just, or whatever level they come in, but they kind of make it if they kind of say that, okay, this is what I’m looking to do. But you know, I want to progress this is where I want to get to having like an internal leadership program where they can, which they can join, that can help equip them with the kind of skills with with the skills to basically be able to reach that position. I’m also believer in mentoring, I really, really believe in mentoring, because personally, because I’ve benefited from so so much from it in my own career. But I think if you if if there is, you know, for people that want to go into this leadership roles, I think mentoring is really, really important. And I think there should be kind of almost you can have an internal mentor in the firm. That will also be your advocate, hopefully from one of the senior senior from a senior position above you to kind of help you guide to guide you through that process to also get also to get to the top but I will I think it’s useful to have somebody on the outside as well, that can perhaps give you an objective view and advice on how to navigate the promotion, the promotion system within your firm as well, because sometimes they have, they might say things which necessarily, somebody inside the firm may not think about. And it kind of gives you a more broadened view as well. And then you’ve got coaching, as well. Once you’re in the front end, maybe you can get some kind of coaching to help you get to those roles. And I also quite like, quite like targets, setting for firms to set targets. So to say that, okay, we’re going to have this many people from an underrepresented background reach this role in this number of years, and then actually, you know, have intervals where they measure up secure, where have we got to, if we haven’t reached that target, why haven’t we got to that target, and then revisit that initiative and see how they can make it better. And then kind of help that continued support. 

Robert Hanna 26:05 

Yeah, and again, great, great tips there in terms of creating the programs, we’re huge advocates of mentoring on the show, it’s been a recurring theme throughout our seasons to date, because mentors matter. And I also liked that you talked about you know, about having your board of mentors around you not just in your environment, but outside of your environment. And you gave a great example there of that, then we want to kind of switch back to social mobility because you do some very high profile work related to this. What motivated you initially to become a social mobility ambassador for the Law Society? And what does that role specifically entail? 

Salma Maqsood 26:43 

So when I was growing up, I didn’t see any lawyers that looked like me. I didn’t have anyone to look up to didn’t have any role models. And everybody I looked at, they will just look the same to me. It was really lonely. And there was like, loser times where I thought, Okay, right. You know, this is clearly not for me, I am not going to make it even after qualified, there were times where I thought, yeah, this is just, it would just seem like a constant constant battle. But I bet, you know, I kind of persevered. And I did get there. So when I heard about the scheme, I was, and the social mobility scheme is actually it promotes role models from non traditional backgrounds, who actually, I wouldn’t know who made it, so to say. So when I heard about this game, I took it as an opportunity to give back. I thought, right, okay, I’m going to be that person that I wish I had seen, when I was going into law. And throughout my career, my junior career in law as well, I want to be that person that I wish I had access to when I was going through law. So that’s why I became a social mobility. Ambassador, the role itself, it kind of a, it’s all about includes sharing. So the session with social mobility ambassadors, we all share our experiences, our challenges in the career, and any kind of tips that we’ve picked up along the way. Just kind of inspire and be the role model to others that we, I guess, didn’t have. And then we also kind of do do some mentoring, we take part in the diversity access scheme, which I’m a massive fan of. And the and the whole aim of that Ambassador Program is to kind of show that regardless of whatever social background you come from, you know, you can make it in law. 

Robert Hanna 28:19 

It’s so good. And I always say to people, you know, once you reach, teach or give back and you know, once you get to the top, don’t forget to send the elevator back down. I love the fact that you you do that, right. And it’s really inspiring for people to hear that, you know, someone who came from your background is now giving out your your knowledge, your support, your kind of words of encouragement and change. So it’s great to see and that’s why we love having people like yourself on the show. But you keep busy because you’re also Junior vice president of the Bristol law society. So can you share some of the initiatives you’ve been involved in with that?  

Salma Maqsood 28:54 

Yes, absolutely. So first of all, I just want to say before I go into this, that it’s really, really important for people from different backgrounds to join Council and local law societies. Because if you’re not on council, and if you’re not on, you know, this kind of on your local law societies or other kind of committees of the law societies, then your voice isn’t in the room. And the reason why I say that is because when I first got involved in Bristol Law Society, one of the first kinds of things that I that was one of my first projects actually was setting up the Bristol law societies, equality, diversity and inclusion committee with my co chair who’s Coralie McIver and so we both kind of read together to set up that eti committee which I’m both of us are equally proud of, and we continue to chair over the last few years. Most recently, I would probably say that the most of the one of the initiatives that I’m actually quite proud of is I ran we ran an Islamophobia webinar in November last year, which is a sama phobia, Awareness Month. And I don’t know These kind of webinars weren’t ordinarily run before. And I think people wouldn’t even think about running one again, but if you’re in the room, then is something that you’re thinking about, and, and reaching out to people that might not either otherwise have related to the Law Society, and is also informative as well, to people that don’t know about Islamophobia. It’s, it’s, you know, we’re all learning. So it was great, it was great to be a part of that as well. And, and then actually, at the end of last year, again, brittle allsite, also, I assisted with drafting a statement following the conflict in the Middle East. And I thought that was great, because it kind of it was a statement to kind of support colleagues out there. And to say, you know, we’re aware that you’re struggling, and, you know, we would like to support you and kind of ask them to coordinate with their internal networks and their friends. I thought that was that was also again, you know, I was quite proud of that as well. And being a part of the Law Society, bristle or such that is doing that as well. 

Robert Hanna 31:04 

You know, and it’s fantastic that you’re doing all of this amazing work, you know, LinkedIn, how I have a pair of socks on from LinkedIn, which is called on the left sock, create on the right sock conversation. And and what you’re doing is exactly what the largest world’s largest professional networking site is creating conversation, to educate, to inform, to hopefully create change. And it’s, you know, it’s really great to see that you have, and by the way, you do all this on top of a stressful day job, you know, as a partner in a law firm. So I really do want to give you your, your moment for this because it takes a lot of dedication, and you know, you people deserve all the recognition you get for the work that you do, because this is going to create a wonderful legacy. Looking back, hopefully in two 300 years time on how the law has changed, and you would absolutely have been part of that. And you’re also the founding board, member of the ethnics solicitors southwest network. So what’s the network’s primary goals and achievements today? Would you mind telling us a little bit more? 

Salma Maqsood 32:05 

Of course. So I would just like to say that the board is actually is a few of us a few of us individuals all from different law firms across Bristol. So yeah, a bit of a shout out to Nick Lee, from Paragon cos he’s our who’s our chair. And then we’ve got Carly from freeths. You’ve got imam from for Ansty. You’ve got Sabina, as you already, I think she’s already been on this podcast hasn’t she? 

Robert Hanna 32:29 

She’s fantastic. 

Salma Maqsood 32:32 

And we’ve got Marcus from beta salmon as well. So it’s it’s what I love about this network is that is it’s a cross firm, collaborative network. And that’s kind of the theme that we’ve been building on. So and the idea behind it was actually just to kind of bring together lawyers from Bristol in the southwest, all that kind of, you know, those that come from diverse racial backgrounds to promote equality and equity in both entering the profession. And then once you’ve got into the profession, then career progression as well, because it’s all about getting into the profession. But then once you get in there, we’ve already talked about progression, you know, it can be really daunting and really, really difficult if you don’t get that support along the way. We although we’ve kind of had, we’ve been kind of like almost like an informal network for maybe a few years. But we were rebranded this year. And we kind of launched this year as one in January. And so far, we’ve had like four really successful events, we had our launch event. I mean, yeah, it’s July already had four events. We had our launch event, and then we had a Ramadan Iftar event. And then we had an incredible panel discussion. A couple of months ago, it was just fantastic. Again, with you know, lots of different law firms talking about what was working, what wasn’t working, lots of, you know, engagement with our with everybody that attended. And then just very recently, we’ve had our summer networking party as well, which had a real focus on just networking, allowing people to kind of speak to each other learn from each other. And it was it was, you know, is incredible. It was great from that conversation going on. There were like some real alliances. You know, people were very happy to talk to others about their journeys, and share struggles and give advice. And it was yeah, it was just great. And it’s just, I think, for me that personally, the real thing has been, it’s just been that that the law firms across, you know, across Bristol, there, a lot of them are really keen to get involved. So they’ll get in touch with us and say, you know, can we help can you know, come you’re face to face, we’d like to collaborate with you. And it’s that real interest that’s been sparked this year. And I’m really hoping that as we as we go as we grow, and as we get bigger and hopefully bigger, you know, we that these conversations keep going and we keep learning from each other or to diversify the profession.  

Robert Hanna 35:00 

Yeah, and what we’re all for that. And you’ve given some, as I say, throughout this conversation, some really good examples and some some great case studies. And you know, it’s gonna be super helpful for our listeners, just want to maybe dive in a little bit more detail, what in EDI initiatives have you found to be the most effective in terms of fostering a more inclusive and diverse legal environment? And how do you ensure that these sort of EDI programs lead to meaningful and lasting change. 

Salma Maqsood 35:29 

So change has to come from leadership level, it has to come from the top. So once you’ve got buy in from your senior leaders, like the firm, and you know, they are literally, you know, they are, they are pushing these initiatives through, that’s where that’s where it’s it, that’s where the the start is, and that’s where meaningful and lasting change. And that’s how you get it really. And, again, I mean, I know a lot of people don’t like targets. But I feel like if it’s not written into the strategy of the firm, and the growth of the firm going forward, if you don’t have targets that, you know, we’re going to recruit, say this many people from underrepresented backgrounds, we’re going to promote this many people to this position on this many people to this position, or we’re going to go out and perhaps work with a local, you know, community group or or I feel like, if you don’t have those targets, then you have nothing to measure yourself against. And I think that that kind of those kind of targets need to be written at that strategy level and then visited, and you have a focus group that basically actually works on those initiatives and those targets, you know, over the X number of years, basically, and you’re revisiting them quarterly monthly, just to make sure that you’re on target and tweaking things to make sure what is working, what isn’t working, because unless these conversations are happening all the time, and unless you’re checking in with yourself in your firm, you’re not going to know, you’re not gonna be able to make any change. And as you are, and that change is going to happen overnight, it’s going to be like a lot, it’s a long term strategy, isn’t it. So it’s a, it’s about making sure that there’s people that continue to be invested, that there’s continuity, so that if people do leave, there’s somebody else coming into that role. And that kind of those strategies, they’re within that firm, and they continue to be a part of the framework of the firm going forward. Just as important as you know, budgeting, for example, I mean, we all know how much how important money is. And it should be given the same importance as that. Because if you do, then it’s right up there, isn’t it and you’re always talking about it. And it’s always there in both meetings, and it’s always there. You’re always talking about it, which I think is really important. And just want to know more kind of like, below that. I think internal networks are really useful as well. And I think it’s really important that on in that you have somebody from the senior leadership team or HR department, or you know, somebody who can make real key decisions as part of internal networks, so that they’re listening to the pupil, they’re listening to people that are part of that network, they’re taking on board, what is being said, they can take back ideas, they can take back thoughts, and again, you know, feed in two key decisions when it comes to the firm’s strategy or growth going forward. And I think that’s that, again, senior senior leadership input at that stage, I think is really, really important. And then again, mentoring, and I think, you know, we talked we talked about mentoring one way, but then you know, perhaps in leadership team can have reverse mentoring as well. And then there then that that kind of like brings your focus on to the EDI targets. Because as somebody you know, you’ve got that input in as well.  

Robert Hanna 38:46 

Yeah, it know, great things, you know, and it’s, it’s simple, isn’t it, what gets measured gets done, you know, if you’re gonna measure something and track it doesn’t matter what conversation it’s related to, there’s a higher chance that that’s gonna get done by writing it down, measuring it, making yourself accountable to it, you’re more likely to reach that goal. So, you know, really like that very practical, very easy to implement. And hopefully, let’s call it kind of creating that change. Someone you’ve had a host of accolades. I’m just gonna read out a few here. Bristol Property Law Judge 2021 shortlist of the lawyer of the year the modern law awards. 2022 named UK Top influential Muslims in legal 2022, top 50 influential Muslims in Europe 2023 I mean, the list goes on. What legacy would you like to leave in the legal profession? And what are your plans for continuing to support future lawyers from non traditional backgrounds? 

Salma Maqsood 39:38 

So what we’re planning for continuing to support future lawyers is actually just kind of continues to mentor to continue to be visible. And most recently in my role, joining the law, society, equality, diversity and inclusion committee is actually to work alongside them because the committee advises it advises the Law Society And it’s committee and the board on EDI and inclusion issues and it sets a strategic kind of direction and framework for EDI issues in the profession, across the country, ensuring, you know, kind of like a coordinated approach across the law societies, I think that’s quite to be at that level and a part of that conversation. I think when I can, I can kind of help future lawyers and and on hopefully, from non traditional backgrounds, those non traditional backgrounds going forward, and also just continuing my role as part of the ethnics list of Southwest network. And being available because I have a lot of people who will kind of message me on LinkedIn zero, Have you got time for a chat? Can you help me and I just kind of have like various sometimes it’s one off mentoring sessions with people. And sometimes we might have maybe a few sessions. And I like to kind of continue that. And one of the things that I’m I really, really like I think I mentioned before, as well, the diversity access scheme, I want to continue to be a part of that, because I just think it’s so important. It’s just, you know, it’s a program run by the Law Society to help people from underrepresented backgrounds, disadvantaged backgrounds, to get a fully paid scholarship for the SQ or the LPC and then go on to get a training contract as well. And I just think that’s amazing. So, yeah, I’d like to continue to be involved in that as well.  

Robert Hanna 41:15 

Yeah, no, it’s a wonderful initiative and appreciate you sort of, you know, really shining a light on that, because that’s the thing, isn’t it, we want to give people access to information so they can better make better informed career decisions, but also get access to getting into these professionals that they aspire to be in. Some have really enjoyed talking to you today. And I knew I was going to, and I guess you’ve crammed were crammed in a heck of a lot in a short space of time. But before we before we close, what would be your advice you would offer to law students or aspiring professionals who wish to specialize in commercial property law? 

Salma Maqsood 41:46 

I think it’s really important that if you do want to go into commercial property law just didn’t think about just the law side of it. So you should go out. And I think you should join local Property Groups, property networking groups to find out what is actually happening in the industry to keep up to date with industry changes, to speak to local agents, again, to perhaps join any kind of networking events that local agents might have going, because a lot of a lot of what you do on the legal side of it, it really does feed in what’s actually happening in the industry as well. So it’s good to have all that kind of background knowledge as well. And if you do want to go into commercial property, I mean, it’s a lot of reading to make sure you to kind of stay up to date with that with the law as well. And again, there are legal property, and networking groups as well, you kind of you can join those as well. And if you want to also get yourself a commercial property law mentor, and I promise you it’s a lot more exciting. Commercial Property Law is a lot more exciting, I think, than what people think it might be. But I really do think it’s important to have that commercial awareness and know what’s going on in the industry, as well as stay up to date on on top of all the legal work and legal knowledge that you will need in any in any area of the law that you went into. 

Robert Hanna 43:01 

Yeah, and I think the benefit of having that commercial acumen is obviously you understand your clients more just in terms of their ways of thinking and what they’re trying to execute with market trends and market swings and everything else in addition to obviously being their legal counsel. So yeah, I love that. And if our listeners would like to learn more, as I’m sure they’re worried about your careers, a lot of initiatives that you’ve mentioned here today, networks are involved with your current firm, where can they go to find out more, feel free to shout out any website links, any social media handles, we’ll also make sure we share them with this episode for you too. 

Salma Maqsood 43:29 

So the Law Society’s web pages really good. Lots of information on there about the diversity access scheme, I’d invite people to go in and have a look at that. On the social mobility ambassadorship on on the Law Society. Web page is where there’s information about, you know, what, who the who, the who the social mobility ambassadors are. And you can you can ask them questions, you can get mentoring from them. So do check them out as well. If you want to know more about the strings and the work that we do, please do have a look on our website. And if you’re anybody wants to get in contact with me. I mean, I’m only on LinkedIn. So please feel free to drop me a message on LinkedIn very happy to help answer any questions.  

Robert Hanna 44:12 

Well, there you have it, folks. Thank you ever so much, Sam, for joining us today. It’s been a real pleasure having you on the legally speaking podcast wishing you lots of continued success in your career and future pursuits. But from now from all of us, over and out.