Discover how to tackle nepotism in the legal industry with insights from Puja Modha, a Partner at Aria Grace Law. Puja joined us on the Legally Speaking Podcast to shed light on her negative experiences of nepotism in the work place, as well as suggesting ways for firms to create more equitable environments.  

So why should you be listening in?  

You can hear Rob and Puja discussing:  

• Puja’s relationships with work and wellness  

• Building resilience as a lawyer 

• How journalism skills can be applied to law 

• Advice for recent law graduates 

• The Aria Grace ecosystem 

Transcript

Rob Hanna 00:01 

Welcome to the legally speaking podcast. I’m your host Rob Hanna. This week I’m delighted to be joined by Pooja muda Pooja is a commercial lawyer and Compliance Officer she is also a partner area Grace law. Pooja has a wealth of experience in compliance operations marketing journalism and corporate social responsibility. Pooja is passionate about social mobility in the legal profession, and inspiring the next generation. So a very big warm welcome Pooja. 

Puja Modha 00:32 

Thanks so much Rob. I’m delighted to be here.  

Rob Hanna 00:35 

Ah, it’s an absolute pleasure to finally have you on the show. I’m so pleased we’ve managed to make it work. And before we go through all your amazing projects, experiences to date, we do have a little customary icebreaker question here on the legally speaking podcast, which is on a scale of one to 1010 being very real. What would you rate the hit TV series suits in terms of its reality of the law? If you’ve seen it? 

Puja Modha 01:01 

Yes, I’ve seen all series and I would say probably 6.5, on realness, quite high. 

Rob Hanna 01:09 

I think it must be one of the very few out of the hundreds and hundreds of guests we’ve had over a year who have done all the series and to give it a 6.5. I’m very impressed that you’ve kind of gone through the journey with us on the show and on a very reasonable six and a half. So would you mind by telling us a bit about your background and career journey? 

Puja Modha 01:26 

Sure. So I graduated with a law degree in 2010. From Queen Mary. I then took a year out where I did work experience and internships in a variety of different types of organisations. This was then followed by specifically doing a vacation scheme at Citi Group where I was there for 12 weeks. And then I worked at Citi Group for I think about three and a half years and anti money laundering, anti bribery and corruption. I then moved over to society General, I worked in their legal team. After that I had to take a break as my mother got very sick, and she was immobile. So I came home to look after her and I was applying for training contracts. And I left I landed in a criminal defence and extradition law firm. And I worked there for two years, but I knew it wasn’t necessarily the area I wanted to stay in. So I took some time out. Because if I’m honest, I was exhausted of years of working, and I wanted a break into travel. And then I got a job as a legal counsel working for smart pension, which is a FinTech company. And that’s where I met someone called Lindsay Healy, who became my mentor now is a very dear friend. I left smart pension and I worked then at a Japanese investment bank called MUFG. But I think my heart was tugging that I wanted to work in area Grace law, which is the firm that my mentor and dear friend Lindsay created. And I’ve been at Eric Grace law as a lawyer for now over five years. 

Rob Hanna 02:49 

And it’s a phenomenal career. And I guess I want to get back a step to the to the why law for you. Why did you choose to pursue specifically the legal sector. 

Puja Modha 03:00 

So I knew from a young age that I wanted to be a lawyer, when I was about seven years old, my grandfather passed away. And on his deathbed, before he died, he was forced to sign over a very successful business, he had an East Africa. And in that process, he lost about 98% of his of his wealth completely gone. And I saw the impact that it had on my grandmother, my aunt, my mother, and it made me think I want to do a job where I’m empowered, I also want to do a job where I can look after the people that I need to with legal skills, with financial stability. And that’s what triggered the desire of wanting to be a lawyer. And to be honest, I’ve been referred to as a dog, you know, dog with a bone. I was just, that was it, I wanted to be a lawyer, and there was nothing else. And I had been discouraged over the years through not being successful, that same training, contract processes, and so on. But I was adamant that was what I was going to do. So that’s what led me to this career path.  

Rob Hanna 03:58 

I love your tenacity, but I also admire your your values, and you know, slightly similar in some respects, you know, my wife and wanting to be involved in legal community and podcasting stems from my grandfather, because he was a lawyer, and he left the sort of wonderful legacy and an offline world and I’m obviously trying to emulate that in a online world and use all of these wonderful new things like podcasts, you’ll be thinking, What on earth was that back in his day? But I really liked that you’re, you know, fighting for justice. And you know, there’s, there’s a, there’s a reason for that. And that’s gone on to be a profession and it’s based on really fundamentally great values and, you know, your whole work ethic and motivation and tenacity and obviously, clearly success from what you’ve achieved them behind that. So I really like that story. Thank you for sharing. Let’s talk a little bit more than about sort of, you know, commercial your commercial lawyer compliance officer partner area Grace law, for those who might be less familiar. What is a compliance officer? 

Puja Modha 04:51 

Okay, so lawyers and compliance officers work together. There are similarities but a compliance officer is law. Looking specifically at the legal requirements and how you can comply with those requirements from a practical from an operational sense. So let’s say there are money laundering regulations as an example. That’s the regulation. That’s the law that we have to follow. But you have to have policies, procedures in place in your business to comply. And that’s part of what the compliance officer does. They also do things like day to day interaction with regulators. So I have engaged with regulators in the financial sector, in data privacy, certainly over the years. So that’s very much on the compliance side. The lawyer, on the other hand, May, let’s say, do more contentious things, or things would have a more commercial angle, like drafting terms and conditions, which is not something a compliance officer or consultant would do.  

Rob Hanna 05:45 

I love that, such a great example and just concise and easy to digest. So really appreciate you taking the time to go through both of those. Can we talk about what a typical day looks like for you then because I can imagine it’s quite varied talk us through a day in the life of Puja. 

Puja Modha 06:01 

Okay, so I wake up at about five to 6am. I have I live with a chronic medical condition and an injury with my leg. So I do about 90 minutes of physio, I then go to the gym, I do Zumba, I do BODYCOMBAT, then I do some stretching yoga, then I come home, I actually start working around lunchtime, I actually am I can do that. Because of the area Grace law model that I’m in, I can choose the hours as to when I want to work and how 12 o’clock I have lunch, I look at all my emails, manage client expectations, start doing a bit of work around two o’clock to seven o’clock, I’m in meetings with clients, and then seven to 10. I actually do a lot of my little work when it’s a lot quieter. And I don’t have constant pings of clients messaging me or the need to actually supervise my trainee as well, because I know thankfully, she’s having a well deserved break. In the late evening while I’m there working. 

Rob Hanna 06:54 

What I love about that is number one, you know your core pillar is obviously health you know, you look after you make sure that you know Zumba. I love that and you know everything that you’re doing, because I was listening to obviously diary of CEO, everyone’s heard of the podcast called Stephen Barlow, and he was saying the number one pillar for him is health, right. So if you can get that right, then business relationships, everything from there can can go forward. And I love and that’s why it’s important that people know about law firms like area of grace law that exists that can give you this autonomy, flexibility to work, you know, when when suits you and is right for you and what you’re trying to do. And, you know, I’m similar to you know, I’m not a morning person, I don’t really get going until sort of you know, elevens is plus, but I’m very, you know, in the evening, when things die down my little ones in bed, I’ve done bath time, you know, seven 8pm, I kick in, you know, I just get these thoughts, I get these ideas, I go back to clients, like, I really go for it. So I absolutely relate to that. So let’s talk about some of the articles you’ve been involved with. In your article with medium area, grease law, how a unique ethical firm has been able to help startup during COVID 19 new state, the area law model is based on sharing values in which it treats clients, lawyers and society within one ecosystem, where if one does well, every other party in the ecosystem does well love that. So would you mind explaining how this ecosystem functions in practical terms? 

Puja Modha 08:20 

Yes, of course, I’d be excited to so for lawyers, firstly, in comparison to a traditional law firm, where let’s say I will be charged at a certain rate and the partnership, the equity will take a chunk of my out when I’m being charged out to the client and I get a very small amount as my employees salary in error, Grace law, whatever I charge out to the clients, I get 90% of that hourly rate. So simple math, as an example, let’s say the charge out rates 100 pounds, out of that 100 pounds per hour that I’m working, I take away 90 pounds, that is huge. And it’s unprecedented in the legal sector to be in a position to have a platform or an organisation that allows you to do that. Now, by earning so well, that also means that I don’t have to work as many hours so excessively. So I can do things like look after my health spend that whole morning until 1212, lunchtime, exercising, doing things I enjoy while a happier lawyer. This also then affects clients, because they’re getting a lawyer who’s had experience in large organisations, in private practice in house and can advise them and support them and is in a better mindset. That also means that also their prices are better. Because we don’t have expensive overheads were virtual. I think our registered office at one point was Lindsay’s home address has been changed now that we don’t have a physical presence. So you’re not going to be Chartbeat you know, the client isn’t going to be charged for my fancy office in it’s a Canary Wharf and all my expensive dinners and a corporate hospitality events I’m doing they’re not going to have that cost. So the client benefits there’s also a feelgood factor for the client in that 10% of everything that is charged to them is in some shape or form, we either use the thumb for our overheads which are very low, or the rest, which is the profits go directly to charity. So it’s great for a client to know actually, I’m engaging with you, you’re earning properly, it’s not going to some executive sitting in a fancy office, it’s actually going to the person who’s doing all the hard work that I like, who’s happy, happy to see me and I’m happy to see them. And part of what I’m paying you is going to a charity, sometimes a charity that they choose or care about, and they endorse and tell us please would you give it to this organisation or this worthy cause? So that’s where the charities sorry, the society element comes in, in the ecosystem. Everybody benefits in some shape or form through this model that Lindsay created about six years ago. 

Rob Hanna 10:50 

So prior to joining airy Grace law, you were pro bono counsel, I believe that Q legal. So what was your experience of providing free legal advice, workshops, online resources to startups and entrepreneurs. 

Puja Modha 11:06 

I’ve supported key legal while being a partner at Area Grace law. So it wasn’t necessarily beforehand, but I did have a relationship with them. Because I went to Queen Mary University of London. And while I was there, they had a pro bono clinic, which que legals, essentially it. So many years later, I wanted to give back and I wanted to help other students who are trying to do pro bono work and spending their spare time and a really valuable good way for the community. So while working at area, Grace law, obviously, I’m really fortunate I choose my hours, I get remunerated really well. So I thought, let me get involved with Q legal. So what I was doing is, the students, for example, would meet with a startup, they’d come up with some advice, they’d send it to me, I would review it, I would give them feedback, I get them to change things, because obviously, I have more experience. And I’m a commercial lawyer. So I will see things that they may not necessarily have thought of commercially. So I will give them feedback on their work. And then they would revise, update, and then off, it goes to the startup. And I think there were two startups that we helped together. Separately, sometimes if they did some types of legal notes that they wanted to publish online to help the startup community via their LinkedIn page, they would send it to me, and I give them some advice and feedback. If it wasn’t, I’d say an area that I know really well. 

Rob Hanna 12:20 

I love that you’re such a sort of caring, supportive individual, and you have so many strings to your bow, which I also really kind of appreciate. So what about going back to your city days just to give people a bit more education because you’re an Amir anti money laundering, which you touched on before regulatory and policy lead there. What were you involved in, give me an idea of what it was like in that sort of financial services environment in that type of role. 

Puja Modha 12:50 

It was a fascinating experience for which I am and will always be grateful to Citi Group for, if I’m honest, I think there were parts of me that didn’t appreciate the experience as much as I could have at the time, because I was so gunning to be a lawyer. And with hindsight, I wish I could have seen actually, without the experience you’re getting in a compliance function is phenomenal. This and this is actually what helped me become a better lawyer is having that compliance experience. But if I contrast working at Citi Group to my my lifestyle, now, on my web, where I’ve landed with Eric grey slaw, the hours were a lot more extreme, one has to be a lot more politically savvy to navigate, and that sort of an organisation and it multiple types of banks and large law firms. And it can be tiring, if I’m on is having to be so politically savvy, and even had a course on how to be more politically savvy than I went on. It was something that was quite common that you needed to further develop. I gained great experience. But I also it’s not something I would ever want to do or go back in. Because I think, with organisations like that bank and several other banks, they’re very big, and it’s very hard to move projects and things forward. It’s also very hard to change, certain cultural institutional thinking, such as on things like nepotism. There are three law firms and one bank that I can recall off the top of my head where nepotism was rife. And I’m the I’m not one of the beneficiary of it. So I’ve had a very different experience and it’s it, how it can really affect you your career, how you operate, how you think, and I appreciate the experience. I gained work experience and my career development in those organisations, but I’m very, very happy where I’ve landed, because we live and breathe integrity in how we work, how we hire, how we transfer people within the firm into other clients or teams is all about fairness. And I didn’t see that a lot in my career Sadly, 

Rob Hanna 14:53 

no, and I appreciate you giving a refreshingly you know, authentic, you know, response to that and you know, also picking Now the experience because I’d say in any scenario that you’re in, there are lessons you will learn or education you will get. And it’s, it’s how you take that experience as a building block to sort of be the master of your own career, you know, because I always use this quote, time and time again. And every episode, I think it was meant to be, it’s up to me, I think we’re very good at pointing the finger. And actually, if you look back, there’s more fingers pointing back at you. So if you’re in the environment that doesn’t serve you or is not right for you, it’s up to you to go and find elsewhere. Because if you rely on other people, and don’t take that self accountability, that’s when you can get into negative mindsets and get into negative group thinking. And actually, it can kind of pick send you backwards. So I love that you kind of pick up on the positives. Now you push your career further, you’re in an environment you’re flourishing that’s around your core values, because you’ve made that happen. So I absolutely tip my hat to you. With that, let’s talk about journalism because you wear a few hats and have won some hats. So you also spent some time working as a journalist, what skills the question is quite a few that you picked up along the way that you now use as a lawyer from your time as a journalist. 

Puja Modha 16:01 

So I worked for a travel company in Singapore called trip 101, I was virtual. And I would write travel articles in my own name, I would also copyright in the name of other organisations on behalf of them. Some of my work was, for example, linked with booking.com, which is one of their partners. And the key thing I learned from the editors, when I first started out was I thought I was really good, but I really wasn’t being from a legal type of background. We don’t know adjectives were quite, you know, matter of fact. And the key thing they said to me is if you want to try and promote and sell in a resort or a restaurant, you can’t say things like, the food tasted really nice. It’s got to have a lot more, you know, the spirit to tantalise my palate, you know, it was a riveting experience eating in the luxury establishment. It can’t just be I really liked eating there. And it was nice ambiance, I learned a lot more about how to actually use more adjectives and add a bit more of a personality flair. And how this has helped me as a lawyer is often my clients need me to draft documents that are on their website, like privacy notice Terms of Use, and or employment contracts, for example, or consulting agreements internally. And whenever I’m drafting content for them, I say to them, Do you have any brand guidelines? Do you have any copyright, you know, description of how the style in which you write, I will write in your style, because then it seems more authentic. And it’s more real. I don’t just want to draft you a very simple standard document. Let’s make this fun. This is your business. Let’s show people who you are through your legal documents, you’ll have all the right clauses and it’ll be credible, and it will protect you. But we want to show your personality, you know, doesn’t have to be boring. It’s gonna be good fun. So that is 

Rob Hanna 17:50 

and we talked about that on the show. And we say to every guest everyone listening, we hope you get education, inspiration, but also have fun, either being a guest on the show or being part of the show supporting the show. Okay, we’re gonna talk now about a topic that I know you’re you’re passionate about, because throughout your career, including two internships, you’ve experienced the wrath of nepotism early on. So at what moments did you realise nepotism was present within your workplaces? 

Puja Modha 18:16 

So I, I learned really, really early on, I would say about 14 years ago that nepotism was was prevail and in in various organisations that I had worked in or gotten internship. I think the first time was, there was a law firm that had partnered with a legal advice clinic that I was volunteering in. And that law firm, it said, Look, we’re going to offer to candidates a place on an internship in summer, during the academic year that we’re gonna assess your performance. I’m also going to put you on an assessment day, we’re going to be assessed through the day. And we’re going to decide the right to candidates who we’d like on the internship. I was so excited. I was like, wow, this is like my dream law firm because one of the areas of law they did was something I wanted to learn more about, which was immigration law, because of my family in Kenya. I’m gonna do my absolute best. And I actually got told, right, you’re in the top two, we’re going to offer you an internship and I I burst into tears because I was so happy. And I arrived on my first day. And I was in a room with all the others. Candidates. I’m so thrilled. And then I realise they’re all talking, you know, they’re quite relaxed and like a lot of slang. And they didn’t seem like there was a very professional environment, if I’m honest. And I thought, Wow, maybe I’m just felt tight. And it transpired quite quickly that they were 16 to 18 year olds, I was the only 21 year old in there who was off just finished her third year university. So maybe it was school leavers that they were helping or something like that. But as the day went on, I realised that they were partners children, and this was their normal work experience placement. And you know what, that’s fine. If you want to put your kids on a placement if you’ve worked hard to Though your career you want them to get an insight, but what I would say to organisations is, please don’t put somebody like me who’s had to jump through hoops to get there that creates unfairness and equality. And it completely reinforces the disparities in wealth and background. And it was it was hard hitting home. But if I’m honest, I was still a little bit like, you know what, I’m so grateful to be here. It doesn’t matter. And it’s true. I still hold the gratitude. But it was not okay. That they were there at that same time. It was unfair, and how it was done. But that was the beginning. It was a journey that 

Rob Hanna 20:37 

exactly, but it’s important that you highlight that example. And yeah, thank you again for, for giving that insight. So let’s go a little bit deeper, then in what ways? Do you believe nepotism affects social mobility within the legal profession? And what can law firms be doing to reduce the influence of nepotism and law firms and indeed, other legal institutions? 

Puja Modha 21:00 

Yeah, that’s a really good question. I think it’s trying to figure out now what we can do knowing that it is a problem. I think nepotism really undermines the principles of meritocracy. And then that affects how individuals who haven’t benefited from nepotism operate, their motivation levels, their self worth and happiness in the organisation. If they see nepotism prevail, and it starts creating a bit of a toxic workplace, because people realise actually, there’s, you know, perpetuates inequality by limiting opportunities to people because they know right, however hard I try, this person who’s the director, son, nice cousin, next door neighbour is going to benefit more. So it can have a huge impact negatively on social mobility because it’s, it’s very much favouring the privilege. And it’s, it’s so showing people that if you don’t have the same network and same connections, you can’t get to the same level. So it’s, it is a huge, and I think it’s a serious problem that needs to be addressed. And it will take time. I think there are things that law firms can do, but also people who are facing nepotism can do so with law firms. What I would say is there needs to be clear and transparent hiring processes, processes, for job transfers, and for promotions, because if there is a clear process, it can help one way there’s checks and balances to ensure it goes through. So for example, my career I wanted to move departments in one organisation, and I was told keep an eye on internal vacancies on our portal. That’s where we advertise all jobs. If there’s no unsuitable internally, we look externally. Sounds like a good process makes sense. So every day I was checking and there wasn’t a vacancy. And a couple of weeks later, suddenly, a director son decides to get a fixed term contract in that exact department. He is male, and have a different background. I am female, and I’m Asian. And I have more legal qualifications and experience than him. So it didn’t add up. How did he get that role? There was no internal, no internal mention of the vacancy, no external publicity. And I had a good rapport with the HR manager covering all the departments. And I asked her what happens if I don’t understand Did I miss something? And she said to me, no, I have no idea how that individual landed in this role. I just show I started investigating because there is a problem here. And if I’m honest, if I said to her no, because I thought, What is her investigating going to do? For me in that position, it’s not going to get me that role. It’s going to make me look like a troublemaker. It’s going to cause more hostility and problems for me, including that person’s father, who was a director in the function I was in, I was trapped. I was a junior professional with limited resources and access to help. So I really think though, that there needs to be clear processes, there needs to be checks and balances. There also needs to be a safe mechanism for someone like me to escalate so whistleblowing process and policy around this topic, where I don’t necessarily face the repercussions if I report it or say yes, please investigate, because it doesn’t come back to me, the person who’s let’s say, the victim of nepotism. So I think there needs to be processes and whistleblowing, but tying into that training and education because we can’t blame people if they don’t know. You can’t say oh, you can’t have your child or get your nephew that job if people don’t realise that it’s a problem. On the one hand, you could target people’s heartstrings and training and say social mobility doing the right thing. And if that doesn’t work, let’s target reputational damage for the business outcry from public lack of trust and integrity that might work to help people to understand we can Do this, it’s not right. Or if we are going to do it, let’s do a separate programme or placement of its work experience or family and friends, and then do one, which is a properly recruited process for people who applied and went through a criteria. So there’s that separation and creates that right balance to keep everybody happy. So that’s what I would say, I think organisations need to do, but there’s also things people like me can do to combat it. Because it can’t always be like you said, we can’t just blame and point the finger one way we got to point the finger back, what can I do? What I did, and I would recommend other people do is networking. LinkedIn is fabulous. As you yourself know, Rob. Networking is fantastic. use LinkedIn, develop relationships with people go to events, you can find mentors, you can find people who were from disadvantaged backgrounds who are willing to help you and are a position of power where they can guide you with your career, possibly even give you work experience. I am so blessed that I, through networking had developed two mentors who both gave me work experience. One was in a technology company, and one was in a law firm. And they too, had had their own struggles and background problems with their career. So there are people out there who will help you, if your mom and dad isn’t a lawyer, there are many other lawyers in the world, go and make some connections. And then I think if you are already in an organisation, build alliances, advocates, people who will sponsor you, they can combat a bit of nepotism. So I was fortunate in some places I worked where I had mentors internally who would advocate for me, and that would help a little bit, not entirely, but it still helped. And it helped my motivation level and feeling supported. So have the advocates and alliances around you work hard, do what’s in your control. Now you’re going to have to work harder, but do it. And then remember that there are other opportunities outside, go and find your opportunity, like how I found area Grace law, it exists, you can join a place that fits in with your ethos and what you believe if you can’t find it elsewhere. 

Rob Hanna 27:06 

Exactly. Don’t settle for being dissatisfied. Right. And I think you you’re a fantastic example of giving some great tips, practical advice for people, but there’s lots of things in that, you know, segment you just gave, you know, try to control the controllables, like, like you said, you know, we talked about this on the show, mentors matter, you know, they can really provide growth opportunities, they can shortcut issues, they’ve been there, they’ve done that they can provide guidance, they can provide that support. And you know, particularly for me, as a local community builder, it’s so important to have mentors and people around you, particularly when you’re trying to grow something because you’ll come across challenges, you know, and everyone comes across challenges. And it’s just this thing called life and you’ve got to see how you can navigate your own your own journey. And I always say, you know, and you hit the nail on the head when it comes to networking. NSN never stop networking, I really strongly believe it’s the number one thing we should all be doing. Because you’re only one relationship away from changing your life. Like I fundamentally believe that it could be that mentor, it could be that next partner of a law firm that hires you, it could be that next business partner, it could be a personal relationship that, you know, again, we know that making sure you make good decisions in your personal life really can impact your professional life. So networking is so so so important. So I’m a huge advocate for that. And LinkedIn, everything you just said. So thank you for, for sharing that. Okay, let’s talk a bit more broader in terms of diversity, equity and inclusion. You know, in your opinion, what initiatives can law firms implement to promote diversity, equity inclusion within them. 

Puja Modha 28:35 

So, I think the work experience placement is one, especially students who are at high school, so you know, let’s say, sixth form, and they have to have a one week work experience placement, partnering with those schools in certain communities could be a really great idea and helping to allow for more inclusion, especially at an earlier age, rather than let’s say, waiting till someone’s at university. So helping school, school students who work experience. Another thing would be mentoring would actually I think, be key I’ve felt I’ve benefited hugely from amazing mentors. And that can be at any stage, but also having mentors of different types. So I mentor a lot of a lot of people, especially some junior lawyers at the moment. And I actually say to them, it’s great, you’ve got me as a mentor, but now get a mentor who’s that’s a trainee solicitor, get a mentor who’s been a paralegal for five years, get a mentor of someone who works in the operations function, because you are going to learn so much from people of different levels and hierarchy of let’s say, law firm and different functions, because that can help you understand how these organisations operate, and that allows for better inclusion when you do actually land up working in those places. So I think for organisations, it’s key is doing work experience placement, but also offering mentors who are not necessarily just mentors who are, in this case, lawyers it can be The whole spectrum of an organisation we can learn from. 

Rob Hanna 30:03 

Yeah, and you’re basically building your own set of personal board of advisors. You know, and I always talk about 360, mentoring, you know, people beneath you, above you to the side of you, around you giving you that full sheet view. So you can make your own informed decision. So really appreciate you giving your reflections on that as well and some of the benefits that it could lead to for people with their legal careers. Let’s talk about some traits because you know, how of your personal experience has been with resilient rejection, nepotism, ultimately shaped your perception of the current legal sector. 

Puja Modha 30:41 

I would say it’s a highly competitive sector. Nepotism does play a part in the good day, getting a paralegal role, getting a training contract, becoming an associate partner and so on. I don’t think it’s the only thing that affects people. There are lots of other factors, obviously. What I would say is that you have to be very resilient to cope with the rejection in how you process it and continue legal sector of being competitive means you are going to have to be quite thick skinned. I think there was a four year period right apply to over 500 places, and I had received rejections. Sometimes it was just straight out. No, I think I’ve got one rejection in less than half an hour, which was like a record to get into final rounds after assessment is interviews and you know, not the right candidate. And it can really affect you, the way that I have coped and would actually recommend other people is exercise. I found that exercise helped me a lot so I do Zumba, Zumba instructor, I do buddy combat four times a week, it’s you know, it helps me get those endorphins, which builds that shield to protect from the negativity because even if let’s say you do get that job, that training contract or that associate role, you’re still going to get negativity, your supervisor will be negative with feedback, sometimes constructive, sometimes meaning you’re going to have clients sometimes not be very nice to you, because they’re stressed out or they just feel it’s their right to be unpleasant. You have to be able to combat that rejection and negativity and prioritising your health and things like exercise and even meditation can be hugely beneficial in coping through not just the journey of becoming a lawyer, but actually being a lawyer and practising the law.  

Rob Hanna 32:38 

Really well said, and, you know, again, I talked about this a lot on the show, you know, rejection is just redirection. And I think, you know, if you can redirect that, that sort of rejection into doing something positive, and try and surround yourself around people. I think that’s really, really important. You know, everything is energy. I think you’ve given some really practical tactical advice around that, particularly people who might be facing some rejections. And I always say as well, you never lose by use the acronym, it’s life, offering some experience. So try to get some feedback from that rejection where possible, or maybe get some objective, if you can’t get the feedback, get someone that maybe a mentor to provide you feedback on how you maybe could improve for the next time because, you know, you know, people have got it right, you know, the definition of doing the same thing, time and time and time again and getting the same result. You need to look at, okay, what can we change and improve to move forward. And the only other thing I would say to people, you know, obviously, I’m biassed, but I would say a huge game changer, which lots of people overlook is building a relationship with a legal recruiter from the start of your career to the end. I think it’s one of the best relationships you can have that can give you a really good insights into the market opportunities on top of your own individual networking. But if you’re not in a role currently or you’re, you’re trying to get into an opportunity at the early stage of the career, treat it almost as your job and you and I all know Pooja you get knockbacks during your working day, you will have certain knock backs. So celebrate the things that go well throughout that week. Celebrate you know, give yourself some positive energy. If you’ve made that application, go for that 1015 minute walk and grab a coffee and reward yourself and create those little wins into your day that actually gives you good energy and don’t just dwell on the rejection. So I think this has been an absolute masterclass start to finish, I want to ask one question, which to me is a very clear question throughout this discussion that you know, the way that you use a certain hashtag when I’m asked the question, anyway, you’re described as more than just a lawyer. So what’s your meaning behind this? 

Puja Modha 34:28 

So that means while I am a lawyer, I can do so much more for my clients and the community that I support and work with. So, for example, I told you I can also I was a travel journalist and copywriter. I’m a compliance consultant, which as we know is different to what a lawyer is, that’s another area for area Grace law. I was Lindsay for for several years until we got a fab team right now was doing all the operations and marketing internally. And so through that I learned a lot about the For in systems I learned about algorithms like on LinkedIn, for example for marketing purposes. And that means that when clients let’s say instruct me, I can think about things not just through a legal and commercial lens, I can think operationally and more if they want a bit of fun or they want to celebrate when we’ve done some big deal, we can do Zumba because I am as an instructor. So that is what I mean by I’m more than just a lawyer, I can offer you a full suite of services and advice and also dance at the end with you so we can have some fun. 

Rob Hanna 35:31 

That is a unique selling point and I want to do some Zumba. Now I’m sold like I’m just getting into getting ready to get up and do some some dancing. So absolutely love that. Okay, one final question before we let you go, what would be your one piece of advice for those starting their legal careers, be that graduating or looking for their first legal job. 

Puja Modha 35:53 

I would say while it’s important to gain legal experience to gain non legal experience as well, this is because then you can understand how law firms that they operate. If you’re in a corporate social responsibility department, something I’ve done as well. Or if you’re an operations or business development department, you can learn more about how that organisation operates, what’s important are the support functions in it. But also, when you’re engaging with clients, they love to know if you can understand how they operate, how a revenue team have worked, how was various sales team operates is key because often you’re writing contracts for that sales team to push out. So if you know how they think and their mindset that can be hugely beneficial. So you gain experience, not just in law, but outside of the let’s say legal type role. 

Rob Hanna 36:36 

I love that it’s a really good example. And it’s almost like you’re then better equipped to meet your clients where they’re at in terms of their understandings. And you know, you’ve got good quality, transferable skills and something different because if everyone was just paying attention to just getting core legal experience right from the start, that gives you a slightly different string to your bow that actually you’ve got some legal experience but this experience and this combination, and articulating that value to the law firm or the next employer is hopefully going to make you shine love love, love that Okay, so if our listeners which I’m sure they will want to know more about your career journey, airy grace, what you’ve got going on, where can they find out more feel free to shout out any social media handles website links will also make sure we share them with this special episode for you to cool 

Puja Modha 37:18 

that is awesome. Best place to get hold of me is actually LinkedIn. I live on it pretty much all day. Please follow connect, send me a message. I would love to chat with anyone who’s in your community and wants to know more or discuss any of these topics as well. 

Rob Hanna 37:31 

I’m sure they will. Well I just leave me to say thank you so so much for your absolute pleasure getting you on the legally speaking podcast wishing you lots of continued success for now and the future but from now from all of us over and out.